What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...


Think how annoying it would be to use a bubble level that was 100%
accurate. Different fluids having different viscosities yield different
sensitivity. More accuracy may be justified for a transit (surveying
tool), I don't know.

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 11:57:52 PM UTC-6, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

In the spirit of chess, it's to give a comparative ranking to the individual players. BTW, are you the Swedish grand master?

Otherwise: ???? I suppose it's to help make things level or as level as possible, no matter what the profession. I've never heard that one profession's efforts are more precise, than another's.

"Something" is either level or it's not and the particular or different leveling tools make for achieving the goal as best as possible, in/for the particular scenarios.

When I bought my old pillared house, I suspected it wasn't level. I made a 100' water level, with 1/2" clear tubing. I was able to gauge the floor's levelness from one or more point(s) to any/all other point(s). That would have been much more difficult with a 4' level.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:

In the spirit of chess, it's to give
a comparative ranking to the individual
players. BTW, are you the Swedish
grand master?

No Berg is common last name (means
"mountain"), Emanuel or Manne/Manny less so but
still not that uncommon.

"Something" is either level or it's not

In the math world perhaps...

When I bought my old pillared house,
I suspected it wasn't level. I made a 100'
water level, with 1/2" clear tubing. I was
able to gauge the floor's levelness from one
or more point(s) to any/all other point(s).
That would have been much more difficult with
a 4' level.

Here, the floor is so uneven even people who
are slightly drunk can hardly stand. I used
a marble to find out just which way it went and
it instantly rolled into a corner

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 12:57:52 AM UTC-5, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...


Precision can often be based on the size of the bubble.

My pet peeve when it comes to spirit levels are bubbles that are too small.

If the bubble is so small that there is a relatively significant gap on both
sides when trying to level something, then the user is left to "eyeballing
level" by trying to get the gaps even via sight. There is certainly a lack
of precision when that needs to be done.

If the bubble is large enough that it almost touches (or perhaps just touches)
the lines, then finding level is not as much of a guessing game.

Compare the full-size bubble in this level...

https://i.imgur.com/TQHLNXE.jpg

....to this short one:

https://i.imgur.com/uZ2WkRh.jpg

All else being equal, which one do you think is more precise?

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 06:11:07 -0800 (PST), Sonny
wrote:

On Friday, December 29, 2017 at 11:57:52 PM UTC-6, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

In the spirit of chess, it's to give a comparative ranking to the individual players. BTW, are you the Swedish grand master?

Otherwise: ???? I suppose it's to help make things level or as level as possible, no matter what the profession. I've never heard that one profession's efforts are more precise, than another's.

I would assume so. The masonry and frame structure had better line up
somewhere. ;-)

FOr masonry, the overall level is set up by the corners and strings
are used to mark "level" every several courses. The mason's level is
used to speed things up and keep things from going too far out of
whack between these "absolutes".

"Something" is either level or it's not and the particular or different leveling tools make for achieving the goal as best as possible, in/for the particular scenarios.

Something is "close enough", or it's not (nothing is perfect). To
that end, I can imagine a trade-off of sensitivity for speed.

When I bought my old pillared house, I suspected it wasn't level. I made a 100' water level, with 1/2" clear tubing. I was able to gauge the floor's levelness from one or more point(s) to any/all other point(s). That would have been much more difficult with a 4' level.

I use water levels for many things. It's easier to set up siding, for
example, with a water level. Set the level on the house, and measure
from there. Drains, landscaping, and concrete work, are other useful
applications for water levels. Gotta make sure to get all the air out
of the tube, though.

On 12/29/17 11:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise than those used by
bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there is no indication as
to precision on either so the only way to tell would be the mortar
stains on one of them...


Interesting discussion. I've never really thought about it, as far as
accuracy goes.
I really doubt that a carpenter's level is more accurate than a mason's,
but who knows.
My gut is that *if* there was a difference, it would be the other way
around since carpenters pretty much only need level or plumb for about
8ft. And even then with framing, 1/8" off plumb at 8ft is still
considered ok.

In any case, the big difference is with durability. A mason will often
use his level to tap brick/block into place. Also, it's easier to clean
mortar off of wood.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 11:22:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Gotta make sure to get all the air out of the tube, though.

And your tube needs to be 3/8" dia. or larger, I was told. A smaller dia. tube would allow for the water's adhesive forces to affect the internal flow, possibly giving an inaccurate reading..... and probably more so with a longer tube.

Sonny

On 12/30/2017 10:21 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:


Here, the floor is so uneven even people who
are slightly drunk can hardly stand. I used
a marble to find out just which way it went and
it instantly rolled into a corner


The marble or the drunk?

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 09:48:17 -0800 (PST), Sonny
wrote:

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 11:22:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Gotta make sure to get all the air out of the tube, though.

And your tube needs to be 3/8" dia. or larger, I was told. A smaller dia. tube would allow for the water's adhesive forces to affect the internal flow, possibly giving an inaccurate reading..... and probably more so with a longer tube.

Sonny
strictly theoreretically, the small tube should eventially be just as
accurate as the larger one but it might take half an hour to rersolve
instead of half a second - - -

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 08:01:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 12:57:52 AM UTC-5, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...


Precision can often be based on the size of the bubble.

My pet peeve when it comes to spirit levels are bubbles that are too small.

If the bubble is so small that there is a relatively significant gap on both
sides when trying to level something, then the user is left to "eyeballing
level" by trying to get the gaps even via sight. There is certainly a lack
of precision when that needs to be done.

If the bubble is large enough that it almost touches (or perhaps just touches)
the lines, then finding level is not as much of a guessing game.

Compare the full-size bubble in this level...

https://i.imgur.com/TQHLNXE.jpg

...to this short one:

https://i.imgur.com/uZ2WkRh.jpg

All else being equal, which one do you think is more precise?
Not so much the size of the bubble as the size relative to the
reference lines. A smaller bubble, with the finer line spacing to
match, would by default create a more "precice" level. ASlso. the
diametric ratio of the tube (Vial) (or curve, in the case of a single
position level) also affects the accurace. The tube of an "all
position" level is larger in diameter at the center, and smaller at
each end. Some crappy cheap chinese levels are inaccurate because the
widest portion of the tube is not at the center, or one end is wider
than the other.. The bubble MUST be able to rize to the highest point
when the level is "level". The larger the radius of the vial, the
better the sensitivity - measured by the number of degrees of tilt
required to deflect the bubble a given distance. A virtually straight
vial (infinite radius) will be so sensitive that it will be virtually
impossible to center the bubble - the bubble will always be either at
one end or the other..
Engineers levels , transits, and machinists levels tend to be large
radius vials,and very sensitive and precice, while "framing" and
"bricklayers" levels tend to have a smaller radius and less precision.
A bricklayers level may be less accurate as well due to being banged
around more - so the bubble may be off center slightly (out of
calibration) Calibration error can be quickly checked by turning the
level end for end on the same surface and noting the relative
displacement of the bubble.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Here, the floor is so uneven even people who
are slightly drunk can hardly stand. I used
a marble to find out just which way it went
and it instantly rolled into a corner

The marble or the drunk?

Ha ha

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 11:32:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/29/17 11:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise than those used by
bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there is no indication as
to precision on either so the only way to tell would be the mortar
stains on one of them...


Interesting discussion. I've never really thought about it, as far as
accuracy goes.
I really doubt that a carpenter's level is more accurate than a mason's,
but who knows.
My gut is that *if* there was a difference, it would be the other way
around since carpenters pretty much only need level or plumb for about
8ft. And even then with framing, 1/8" off plumb at 8ft is still
considered ok.

In any case, the big difference is with durability. A mason will often
use his level to tap brick/block into place. Also, it's easier to clean
mortar off of wood.
My dad's favorite carpenter's level was wood with a brass edge, but
the one he used most was aluminum because it stood up to bouncing
around the back of the truck with all the other tools and supplies.

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Precision can often be based on the size of
the bubble.

My pet peeve when it comes to spirit levels
are bubbles that are too small.

If the bubble is so small that there is
a relatively significant gap on both sides
when trying to level something, then the user
is left to "eyeballing level" by trying to
get the gaps even via sight. There is
certainly a lack of precision when that needs
to be done.

If the bubble is large enough that it almost
touches (or perhaps just touches) the lines,
then finding level is not as much of
a guessing game.

That's right! I noticed this today when
I almost hurt my eyes trying to get the bubble
in the middle!

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.

Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 5:15:17 PM UTC-5, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.

Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?


But just once...

On 12/30/17 11:48 AM, Sonny wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 11:22:29 AM UTC-6, wrote:

Gotta make sure to get all the air out of the tube, though.

And your tube needs to be 3/8" dia. or larger, I was told. A smaller dia. tube would allow for the water's adhesive forces to affect the internal flow, possibly giving an inaccurate reading..... and probably more so with a longer tube.

Sonny


You can add dishwasher rinse aid to the water to help prevent that.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 12/30/17 11:32 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/29/17 11:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise than those used by
bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there is no indication as
to precision on either so the only way to tell would be the mortar
stains on one of them...


Interesting discussion.Â* I've never really thought about it, as far as
accuracy goes.
I really doubt that a carpenter's level is more accurate than a mason's,
but who knows.
My gut is that *if* there was a difference, it would be the other way
around since carpenters pretty much only need level or plumb for about
8ft.Â* And even then with framing, 1/8" off plumb at 8ft is still
considered ok.

In any case, the big difference is with durability.Â* A mason will often
use his level to tap brick/block into place.Â* Also, it's easier to clean
mortar off of wood.


BTW, we're forgetting about the plumber's level.
It has three lines. 1st is level, 2nd is 1/8" slope in a foot. 3rd is
1/4" slope in a foot.
I think I have those number correct.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).

DerbyDad03 wrote:

But just once...

When and how does decalibration occur?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

krw wrote:

Just put it on something level (e.g.
another level), then flip the level end for
end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read
level after any of the steps, throw it as far
as possible and start over (with another
level).

Good rule, easy to remember

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 23:37:46 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

But just once...

When and how does decalibration occur?

Banging around, more expensive levels have an adjustment for the
bubble, though I have not seen one for sometime for sale.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 23:38:40 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

krw wrote:

Just put it on something level (e.g.
another level), then flip the level end for
end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read
level after any of the steps, throw it as far
as possible and start over (with another
level).

Good rule, easy to remember

It's quite a useful technique when buying a new level. Home Depot has
a lot of them to try (but discourage the throwing part). ;-)

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).

On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.




--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:04:31 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 23:37:46 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

But just once...

When and how does decalibration occur?

Banging around, more expensive levels have an adjustment for the
bubble, though I have not seen one for sometime for sale.

The problem with calibrations is that the calibration mechanism,
itself, is often the biggest reason calibration is necessary.

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 18:59:16 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:04:31 -0600, Markem
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 23:37:46 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

But just once...

When and how does decalibration occur?

Banging around, more expensive levels have an adjustment for the
bubble, though I have not seen one for sometime for sale.

The problem with calibrations is that the calibration mechanism,
itself, is often the biggest reason calibration is necessary.

Work in a calibration lab once, so that is a good thing to me.

On 12/30/17 6:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone, you included, knows what I mean.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:28:16 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.

If you use a level to compare against, it doesn't matter that the
(test) level is level (see above) or even that it's a good level, it
just needs to be somewhat close to being level and, of course,
repeatable.

On 12/30/17 7:16 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:28:16 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there is no
indication as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with
water on the board. The cup will confirm whether the
board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then
flip the level end for end and top for bottom. If it
doesn't read level after any of the steps, throw it as far
as possible and start over (with another level).


Doesn't really have to be level. If it hits the line or is
the same distance from the line when flipped, it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another
level makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test
(sometimes difficult in a store).


Tell me about it. I like HF but I need to test their levels. I
have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I
had to go through about 7 of them before I found one that was
acceptable. Not level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something
level.

If you use a level to compare against, it doesn't matter that the
(test) level is level (see above) or even that it's a good level, it
just needs to be somewhat close to being level and, of course,
repeatable.


It's not going to help at the store, but I make a habit of having the
front of my workbench be perfectly level and perfectly flat on the front
edge. It's nice to be able to quickly check a level you dropped and to
be able to quickly check an edged board without using a held
straightedge against it.

The long, perfectly straight front edge also makes it a quick task to
check squares for square using the mark and flip method.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 23:37:46 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote:

But just once...

When and how does decalibration occur?
abuse

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.

You can rest assured that a level sitting on a level is truly on the level.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 8:13:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 6:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone, you included, knows what I mean.



I guess I should have included the: ;-)

On 12/30/2017 3:15 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.

Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?

Perhaps. I was responding to the stated example about
"the only way to tell" with another way to tell. As
someone else pointed out, you could also check with
your level oriented in one direction, then turn your
level end-for-end and compare the result. There are
probably lots of other ways to tell.

On 12/30/17 10:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 8:13:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 6:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise
than those used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there
is no indication as to precision on either so
the only way to tell would be the mortar stains
on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with water
on the board. The cup will confirm whether the board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).


Doesn't really have to be level.
If it hits the line or is the same distance from the line when flipped,
it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another level
makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test (sometimes
difficult in a store).


Tell me about it.
I like HF but I need to test their levels.
I have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I had to
go through about 7 of them before I found one that was acceptable. Not
level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something level.


Yeah, I'm pretty sure everyone, you included, knows what I mean.



I guess I should have included the: ;-)


Well, there it is, right there. ^^^^
:-p


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

Just Wondering wrote:
On 12/30/2017 3:15 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.

Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?

Perhaps. I was responding to the stated example about
"the only way to tell" with another way to tell. As
someone else pointed out, you could also check with
your level oriented in one direction, then turn your
level end-for-end and compare the result. There are
probably lots of other ways to tell.

After about 25 posts, no one has come back to the OP's point that a
level can indicate that a surface is level ("both ways") even for a
surface which is slightly off-level. Different levels have different
tolerances by design. As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level
would be a PITA. But, I believe that there are different categories of
bubble levels. I think this is left to be addressed.

Bill wrote:

As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate
level would be a PITA.

100% literally would be impossible but
100% practically speaking - why would that be
a PITA? Because nothing would ever satisfy it?

Well, if so, a ruler for example - I always
considered that 100% accurate practically
speaking but that hasn't stopped anyone from
using it as far as I know?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573