On 12/31/17 1:13 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Bill wrote:

As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate
level would be a PITA.

100% literally would be impossible but
100% practically speaking - why would that be
a PITA? Because nothing would ever satisfy it?

Well, if so, a ruler for example - I always
considered that 100% accurate practically
speaking but that hasn't stopped anyone from
using it as far as I know?


The point he's making is that close enough is close enough for most uses
of a 2 or 4ft level.
If you need more accurate, you go to a 6 or 8ft level.
I have a few 4ft levels and more, for whatever reason, is much more
accurate than the others. In many situations, I don't use it because it
is a bit of a PITA.
I don't need to be scootching an 8ft wall back and forth to try to
achieve plumb to within 1/64". That's what happens with this particular
level. The center of the spirit vials is much flatter requiring much
more precision in movement to get the bubble dead-center. Whereas, the
other two have a much more pronounced curve to the viral meaning the
precision of movement needed to get the bubble dead center is much more
forgiving.
When that level is dead center, it might be accurate 1/16" in 8ft, which
is plenty enough for framing.

It's like using the course adjustment instead of the fine adjustment.
Just like with a framing square. It needs to measure decent framing
angles, not send a space probe to mars.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 01:29:43 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Just Wondering wrote:
On 12/30/2017 3:15 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.

Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?

Perhaps. I was responding to the stated example about
"the only way to tell" with another way to tell. As
someone else pointed out, you could also check with
your level oriented in one direction, then turn your
level end-for-end and compare the result. There are
probably lots of other ways to tell.

After about 25 posts, no one has come back to the OP's point that a
level can indicate that a surface is level ("both ways") even for a
surface which is slightly off-level. Different levels have different
tolerances by design. As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level
would be a PITA. But, I believe that there are different categories of
bubble levels. I think this is left to be addressed.


I've addressed it.
There ARE different "sensitivities" of level - call it "accuracy" if
youi like - or "resolution".

It is specified by number of degrees per unit of measurement bubble
displacement - such as .05/2mm, or in units per unit of deflection -
like .2/1 - 0.2 inch bubble deflection with one end of 3 meter
level raised 1 inch.

Can also be metric.
An engineer's precision level (machinist's level) or a survey transit
may be as accurate as .005 degree per 2mm bubble deflection, while a
carpenter's square is tiypically closer to 1 degree - and a plumber's
level may have 3 or 4 vials of different accuracy for measuring
different "drops" for different drain or pipe installations

As far as a level being able to measure totally level both ways on a
surface that is not level - not possible. Even the cheapest level will
only read level on a level surface, both ways, if it is level to
within a VERY small limit of error - if you can read the bubble
accurately

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:27:59 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/31/17 1:13 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Bill wrote:

As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate
level would be a PITA.

100% literally would be impossible but
100% practically speaking - why would that be
a PITA? Because nothing would ever satisfy it?

Well, if so, a ruler for example - I always
considered that 100% accurate practically
speaking but that hasn't stopped anyone from
using it as far as I know?


The point he's making is that close enough is close enough for most uses
of a 2 or 4ft level.
If you need more accurate, you go to a 6 or 8ft level.

A 6 or 8 foot level is not necessarily more accurate than a 24 inch
level - and in fact there are 4 inch or 6 inch levels that are MORE
accurate than the runof the mill 4 or 6 foot level
I have a few 4ft levels and more, for whatever reason, is much more
accurate than the others. In many situations, I don't use it because it
is a bit of a PITA.
I don't need to be scootching an 8ft wall back and forth to try to
achieve plumb to within 1/64". That's what happens with this particular
level. The center of the spirit vials is much flatter requiring much
more precision in movement to get the bubble dead-center. Whereas, the
other two have a much more pronounced curve to the viral meaning the
precision of movement needed to get the bubble dead center is much more
forgiving.


You figured it out!!! It's not the length of the level that makes it
more accurate, it's the radius of the vial.
When that level is dead center, it might be accurate 1/16" in 8ft, which
is plenty enough for framing.

It's like using the course adjustment instead of the fine adjustment.
Just like with a framing square. It needs to measure decent framing
angles, not send a space probe to mars.


Or close a survey within 1/10 of an inch over 2000 feet.

Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 01:29:43 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Just Wondering wrote:
On 12/30/2017 3:15 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Just Wondering wrote:

What is the theory behind levels? I've heard
that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers. I have examined the
ones we have here and there is no indication
as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of
them...
Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup
filled with water on the board. The cup will
confirm whether the board is level.
Isn't that to take it back a level, having to
use utensils to verify your tools?
Perhaps. I was responding to the stated example about
"the only way to tell" with another way to tell. As
someone else pointed out, you could also check with
your level oriented in one direction, then turn your
level end-for-end and compare the result. There are
probably lots of other ways to tell.
After about 25 posts, no one has come back to the OP's point that a
level can indicate that a surface is level ("both ways") even for a
surface which is slightly off-level. Different levels have different
tolerances by design. As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level
would be a PITA. But, I believe that there are different categories of
bubble levels. I think this is left to be addressed.

I've addressed it.

Yes you did. Thank you! I knew there were different "standards", but I
wasn't familiar with the underlying physics. I appreciate the
thoughtful lesson!

Happy New Year,
Bill




There ARE different "sensitivities" of level - call it "accuracy" if
youi like - or "resolution".

It is specified by number of degrees per unit of measurement bubble
displacement - such as .05/2mm, or in units per unit of deflection -
like .2/1 - 0.2 inch bubble deflection with one end of 3 meter
level raised 1 inch.

Can also be metric.
An engineer's precision level (machinist's level) or a survey transit
may be as accurate as .005 degree per 2mm bubble deflection, while a
carpenter's square is tiypically closer to 1 degree - and a plumber's
level may have 3 or 4 vials of different accuracy for measuring
different "drops" for different drain or pipe installations

As far as a level being able to measure totally level both ways on a
surface that is not level - not possible. Even the cheapest level will
only read level on a level surface, both ways, if it is level to
within a VERY small limit of error - if you can read the bubble
accurately

Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On 12/31/17 2:24 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:27:59 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/31/17 1:13 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Bill wrote:

As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level would be a
PITA.

100% literally would be impossible but 100% practically speaking
- why would that be a PITA? Because nothing would ever satisfy
it?

Well, if so, a ruler for example - I always considered that 100%
accurate practically speaking but that hasn't stopped anyone
from using it as far as I know?


The point he's making is that close enough is close enough for most
uses of a 2 or 4ft level. If you need more accurate, you go to a 6
or 8ft level.

A 6 or 8 foot level is not necessarily more accurate than a 24 inch
level - and in fact there are 4 inch or 6 inch levels that are MORE
accurate than the runof the mill 4 or 6 foot level

I didn't say it was, nor imply it.
You get a more accurate reading per the application by using the longer
level.
It also helps you find a more accurate reading because it bridges the
bow in a stud farther than a 4footer.
As an example, my 6' level is less accurate than my 4' level, but in the
above application, it give me a more accurate reading, in context.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

"Bill" wrote in message news
After about 25 posts, no one has come back to the OP's point that a level
can indicate that a surface is level ("both ways") even for a surface which
is slightly off-level. Different levels have different tolerances by
design. As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level would be a PITA.
But, I believe that there are different categories of bubble levels. I
think this is left to be addressed.

Stabila has specs for each of their levels and all the ones I looked at say
"±1/32in @ 72in." I did not find specs for Stanley levels.... Irwin
guarantees vial accuracy for the life of the product at .029 degrees but say
nothing about the accuracy of the placement of the vial in the level's beam.

One issue I haven't seen mentioned is that longer levels tend to give a
better overall indication of level as they average out the irregularities in
the surface being tested. For example, if you use a 2' level to plumb a 2x4
stud wall you run the risk of placing the level at different points in the
curve (no matter how slight) of the stud upon which the level is placed. A
6' level would tend to give a better indication of overall plumb in such
cases but a 4' probably suffices. Same kind of issue with laying bricks or
blocks... a 2' level would be subject to the variation within the few units
it's touching rather than giving an overall indication of the course...
again a 6' level would be better but a 4' probably suffices.

Put another way, there is the accuracy of the level itself (to include the
vial, the beam, and the placement of the vial in the beam) and then there is
the accuracy of the application of the level. I dare say that the level in
my Starret combination square is highly accurate but it would be pretty much
useless for use in plumbing and leveling the framing of a house.

On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 20:50:36 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 7:16 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:28:16 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 6:29:00 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
On 12/30/17 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 16:48:00 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 12/30/17 4:37 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Dec 2017 15:11:07 -0700, Just Wondering
wrote:

On 12/29/2017 10:57 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
What is the theory behind levels?

I've heard that carpenter's are more precise than those
used by bricklayers.

I have examined the ones we have here and there is no
indication as to precision on either so the only way to
tell would be the mortar stains on one of them...

Use it to "level" a board, then put a cup filled with
water on the board. The cup will confirm whether the
board is level.

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then
flip the level end for end and top for bottom. If it
doesn't read level after any of the steps, throw it as far
as possible and start over (with another level).


Doesn't really have to be level. If it hits the line or is
the same distance from the line when flipped, it's level.

True, it's just easier if it's level. Comparing it to another
level makes it so you don't even need a fixed place to test
(sometimes difficult in a store).


Tell me about it. I like HF but I need to test their levels. I
have a 6 footer from there and it's too cheap not to buy, but I
had to go through about 7 of them before I found one that was
acceptable. Not level, acceptable.


A level itself isn't level...unless it's laying on something
level.

If you use a level to compare against, it doesn't matter that the
(test) level is level (see above) or even that it's a good level, it
just needs to be somewhat close to being level and, of course,
repeatable.


It's not going to help at the store, but I make a habit of having the
front of my workbench be perfectly level and perfectly flat on the front
edge. It's nice to be able to quickly check a level you dropped and to
be able to quickly check an edged board without using a held
straightedge against it.

Good point and something worth considering in the future. My benches
are on wheels, so it's not possible to (keep) the front level. I'll
have to check them for straightness. I can use my saw table for that,
if needed, though.

The long, perfectly straight front edge also makes it a quick task to
check squares for square using the mark and flip method.

The instructions for my RAS showed how to do this as a setup step.
Works well.

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 22:34:26 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

"Rails" I'd use at least a 4' level for this. An "I-Beam" or "Box"
level is probably the best. "I-Beams" tend to be cheaper, at least
here. If you aren't going to abuse it, don't spend a lot of money,
just buy (test) a good one. Find a place to keep it where it won't
get dinged (and where you'll remember where it is ;-). A 4' level is
good for the posts (vertical part), too.

To lay out a fence, I'd use a "water level", described elsewhere in
this thread.

By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?

Center of the tree down.

I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Good plan. Also, splinters down, if you're not going to keep them
well painted/stained. Up if you don't want people climbing the fence
(e.g. around a pool).

Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?

Never heard that one before. I'd make sure they were rated for ground
contact. Also, put the bottom few inches in sand or, better, gravel.
Paint all cuts with "green" stuff and cut the tops (perhaps after the
fence is done) at an angle so water doesn't sit on the post tops. They
also sell post covers, here at least, to keep water off the post ends.
They're a worthwhile addition and can be quite attractive (and
pricey). I'm partial to the copper ones. ;-)

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 22:34:26 +0100, Emanuel Berg
wrote:

Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

a 2 or 3 ft level is the handiest - if you are only going to have
one, I'd have a 2 footer

By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Not critical, but I usually put the concave side to the post if using
screws.

Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?


A charred end MAY have some advantage

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:12:51 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"Bill" wrote in message news
After about 25 posts, no one has come back to the OP's point that a level
can indicate that a surface is level ("both ways") even for a surface which
is slightly off-level. Different levels have different tolerances by
design. As I indicated in my post, a 100% accurate level would be a PITA.
But, I believe that there are different categories of bubble levels. I
think this is left to be addressed.

Stabila has specs for each of their levels and all the ones I looked at say
"±1/32in @ 72in." I did not find specs for Stanley levels.... Irwin
guarantees vial accuracy for the life of the product at .029 degrees but say
nothing about the accuracy of the placement of the vial in the level's beam.

One issue I haven't seen mentioned is that longer levels tend to give a
better overall indication of level as they average out the irregularities in
the surface being tested. For example, if you use a 2' level to plumb a 2x4
stud wall you run the risk of placing the level at different points in the
curve (no matter how slight) of the stud upon which the level is placed. A
6' level would tend to give a better indication of overall plumb in such
cases but a 4' probably suffices. Same kind of issue with laying bricks or
blocks... a 2' level would be subject to the variation within the few units
it's touching rather than giving an overall indication of the course...
again a 6' level would be better but a 4' probably suffices.

Put another way, there is the accuracy of the level itself (to include the
vial, the beam, and the placement of the vial in the beam) and then there is
the accuracy of the application of the level. I dare say that the level in
my Starret combination square is highly accurate but it would be pretty much
useless for use in plumbing and leveling the framing of a house.


A high precision "square level" is only about 3 inches long, but when
snapped onto a 2 foot framing square it is HIGHLY accurate. On a 4
foot drywall square, even better - yet it is only THREE INCHES long.
Similarly, using a 2 foot level with a good straight "guage board" of
whatever size you like makes the 2 footer "accurate" over the longer
distance - while a 4 foot level id totally useless if the space
available for lefeling is less than about 47 inches - - - -

Your Starrett combination square could well give you better accuracy
used in this way than your 4 or 6 foot level - and it will level a 8
inch surface as well.

Clare Snyder wrote:

Not critical, but I usually put the concave
side to the post if using screws.

Stainless, self-drilling deck screws with
a "milling" (? - direct translation). I put
them in with a drill driver (torx 25 head)
without drilling first - very easy...

Third question, the posts down in the
ground, does it really help if you first put
them in to a barrel with a fire?

A charred end MAY have some advantage

.... you don't sound very convinced? Anyway
thank you and krw and everyone else
for answering.

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573

On Saturday, December 30, 2017 at 2:37:48 PM UTC-8, wrote:

Just put it on something level (e.g. another level), then flip the
level end for end and top for bottom. If it doesn't read level after
any of the steps, throw it as far as possible and start over (with
another level).

Or, adjust it (for old levels, with replaceable vials, this was always possible).
Nowadays, the adjustment feature is sometimes absent.

Many manufactured items look 'fixed' though a litle hot vinegar would
dissolve the matrix around the vial, and allow adjust/replacement. Every
bent old level is a source of replacement vials when one cracks...

On 12/31/2017 3:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

Most any level is going to be accurate enough for wood, especially
construction grade material.



By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Are you asking which way to place the pickets? Does not matter, a nail
about 1" in from each side and one in the middle if it is a wide picket.


Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?


Whuuut???

On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:25:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/31/2017 3:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

Most any level is going to be accurate enough for wood, especially
construction grade material.

Try going through the levels at HF sometime. I've found some real
stinkers at the Borg, too.



By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Are you asking which way to place the pickets? Does not matter, a nail
about 1" in from each side and one in the middle if it is a wide picket.

Uh, Leon, the picket points go *UP*. ;-)

Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?


Whuuut???

I think the idea is to carbonize the outside so it tastes bad to
critters. It might even work (burn off the sugars) but I'd think it
would be pretty hard to control.

On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 8:25:40 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 12/31/2017 3:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

Most any level is going to be accurate enough for wood, especially
construction grade material.



By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Are you asking which way to place the pickets? Does not matter, a nail
about 1" in from each side and one in the middle if it is a wide picket.


Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?


Whuuut???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvt2BA091XA

On 12/31/2017 9:51 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:25:30 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 12/31/2017 3:34 PM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Clare Snyder wrote:

As far as a level being able to measure
totally level both ways on a surface that is
not level - not possible. Even the cheapest
level will only read level on a level
surface, both ways, if it is level to within
a VERY small limit of error - if you can read
the bubble accurately

So what level should one buy for general
purposes? I won't abuse it. Today I made
a fence with planks to three horizontal bars
(ribs?) if you want an example application.

Most any level is going to be accurate enough for wood, especially
construction grade material.

Try going through the levels at HF sometime. I've found some real
stinkers at the Borg, too.



By the way, here I might also ask what way to
put the planks with respect to the age rings?
I thought I'd put them with the imagined circle
away from the bars, so that the plank will
naturally bend that way (toward the bars) over
time. I'm not sure that will happen tho or if
this is something to care about at all?

Are you asking which way to place the pickets? Does not matter, a nail
about 1" in from each side and one in the middle if it is a wide picket.

Uh, Leon, the picket points go *UP*. ;-)

Third question, the posts down in the ground,
does it really help if you first put them in to
a barrel with a fire?


Whuuut???

I think the idea is to carbonize the outside so it tastes bad to
critters. It might even work (burn off the sugars) but I'd think it
would be pretty hard to control.


Makes sense, wood rots or is eaten because it is a food source.
Charring it would get rid of the nutrients.