We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Interesting, I hadn't run into a need for that type of breaker. If not too
difficult though, I wouldn't want anything running that close to capacity and
would change the circuit to 20-amp on both ends with 12-AWG. I've seen a few
wire insulation melts and cracked receptacles with stuff running that close.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodwo...er-812094-.htm

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 00:14:05 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Interesting, I hadn't run into a need for that type of breaker. If not too
difficult though, I wouldn't want anything running that close to capacity and
would change the circuit to 20-amp on both ends with 12-AWG. I've seen a few
wire insulation melts and cracked receptacles with stuff running that close.
When actually running, the Kill-a-watt reads 7.8 amps with the hose
connected, and up to 11 amps running on open circuit(no restriction)
Nowhere near the limit for running - and NO WAY I'm fishing a 12awg
cable in - it was enough of a problem pulling in the 14, and I was
over 30 years younger when I did that!!!

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Thanks for the very helpful information. Although, not tripping every time may
not be related to the breaker and the breaker is handling the normal operation
fine, when it's present. I think a call to Cana-Vac may be in order, even if
it's just to confirm the need for a high-magnetic breaker.

I presumed it was new and filtered, so it shouldn't be dirty or worn bearings.
However, an intermittent trip may be pointing to a short in the branch wiring
or the power-head impeller being jammed or defective motor windings. One or
more of these could be the cause of your problem, if the Beam was similar in
energy usage. New doesn't mean flawless.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodwo...er-812094-.htm

On Saturday, November 11, 2017 at 12:17:01 PM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.

The usual recommendation is to aim for no more than 2% voltage drop in
your connecting wiring.
14 ga copper reaches 2% drop in 30 feet, at 15A. So, your motor
might just be voltage-starved and trying to stall, when the breaker
pops.
The same motor, if it were REALLY 240V would only take half the
current (7.7A at 240V is the same motor power as 13.4A at 120V),
and thus by convention would be OK for 60 feet of wire,
so you might want to enquire with the manufacturer to see if the
motor can be re-strapped for the higher voltage.

In other words, in addition to getting the 240V breaker, consider upping
the motor voltage as well.

For near-term, check all the screw-down connectioins, if one is
loose THAT could be causing the motor to stall, and it only takes a quarter-turn
of the screw to fix. Don't get shocked!

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:16:54 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping

Each trip diminishes the capability of the C/B as well.

On 11/11/2017 3:16 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping


I had to put a high-trip mag breaker on one circuit which was serving my
shop dust collector. Around here it was a matter of going to the nearest
big-box store -- both Lowe's and Home Depot had them available -- and this
is in a decidedly less populated area than Ontario.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 03:44:02 GMT, Iggy
m wrote:

replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
Thanks for the very helpful information. Although, not tripping every time may
not be related to the breaker and the breaker is handling the normal operation
fine, when it's present. I think a call to Cana-Vac may be in order, even if
it's just to confirm the need for a high-magnetic breaker.

Bean there, Nothing wrong with the motor (confirmed with Ametec/Lamb
- the manufacturer of the motor)

I presumed it was new and filtered, so it shouldn't be dirty or worn bearings.
However, an intermittent trip may be pointing to a short in the branch wiring
or the power-head impeller being jammed or defective motor windings. One or
more of these could be the cause of your problem, if the Beam was similar in
energy usage. New doesn't mean flawless.

No electric power head - and any short in the supply wiring would trip
the breaker with or without the vac turned on. The Beam was an itty
bitty little brother to the CanaVac - with a 5.7 inch Lamb motor, and
it never ran oin the breaker, as I changed from fuse panel to breaker
panel after replacing the vac. It was on a slow-blow "fusetron" for
over 30 years.

We'll know in a couple weeks if the high magnetic breaker has solved
the problem

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 20:37:06 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Saturday, November 11, 2017 at 12:17:01 PM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.

The usual recommendation is to aim for no more than 2% voltage drop in
your connecting wiring.
14 ga copper reaches 2% drop in 30 feet, at 15A. So, your motor
might just be voltage-starved and trying to stall, when the breaker
pops.

The Kill-a-watt indicates a maximum draw of 12.3 amps, and a running
voltage of 115 volts with the hose connectes,and 114 running "open
ciircuit" or "full load". With the vac turned off the line voltage is
117. A 2% drop would be a drop of 2.2 volts, for a reading of 114.8,
and it's pretty difficult to "stall" a "universal" motor driving an
air turbine
The same motor, if it were REALLY 240V would only take half the
current (7.7A at 240V is the same motor power as 13.4A at 120V),
and thus by convention would be OK for 60 feet of wire,
so you might want to enquire with the manufacturer to see if the
motor can be re-strapped for the higher voltage.

It's a "universal" motor, iggy. They are NOT multy-voltage
convertible by their very design.

In other words, in addition to getting the 240V breaker, consider upping
the motor voltage as well.

Not possible. as noted above. A 240 volt and a 270 volt version are
avaiable (at about 50% higher price than the vacuum itself - so not
going to happen)
If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

For near-term, check all the screw-down connectioins, if one is
loose THAT could be causing the motor to stall, and it only takes a quarter-turn
of the screw to fix. Don't get shocked!
All been checked, from one end to the other - (only 2 connections -
at the panel and at the outlet)
The entire house just went through a COMPLETE electrical inspection
when the panel was replaced under 2 years ago. - and that's on top of
my inspecting the circuit due to this issue.

Square D is aware of this problem and recommends the "high magnetic"
breaker as the solution

My point in this post was to bring to the attention of otherwise
knowlegable folks on this usenet group that double pole QO breakers
were ALL High Magnetic - so using 1/2 of the double pole breaker may
solve nuisance trips for "high performance" devices with high initial
startup draws - like compessors, AC units, central vacs, etc.

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 23:59:56 -0800, OFWW
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Nov 2017 15:16:54 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping

Each trip diminishes the capability of the C/B as well.
Correct - but replacing the original breaker with a brand new
identical breaker did not help - and thermal tripping degrades a
breaker significantly more than magnetic tripping - which does not
cause any appreciable heating in the breaker.

Magnetic tripoping is instantanious tripping - thermal tripping is
delayed. (due to prolonged overload)

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 08:04:25 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

On 11/11/2017 3:16 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping


I had to put a high-trip mag breaker on one circuit which was serving my
shop dust collector. Around here it was a matter of going to the nearest
big-box store -- both Lowe's and Home Depot had them available -- and this
is in a decidedly less populated area than Ontario.

Home Despot Canada doesn't carry them at all. Nor does Lowes Canada.
Rona Canada used to carry them, Rona was recently absorbed by Lowes.
Home Despot in the USA apparently DOES carry them but both Buffalo and
Detroit are about 3 hours away.

In Quebec Reno Depot carries the high magnetic breakers in their
stores. That's well over a 5 hour drive.

On 11/12/2017 2:03 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 08:04:25 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

On 11/11/2017 3:16 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping


I had to put a high-trip mag breaker on one circuit which was serving my
shop dust collector. Around here it was a matter of going to the nearest
big-box store -- both Lowe's and Home Depot had them available -- and this
is in a decidedly less populated area than Ontario.

Home Despot Canada doesn't carry them at all. Nor does Lowes Canada.
Rona Canada used to carry them, Rona was recently absorbed by Lowes.
Home Despot in the USA apparently DOES carry them but both Buffalo and
Detroit are about 3 hours away.

In Quebec Reno Depot carries the high magnetic breakers in their
stores. That's well over a 5 hour drive.

Sounds like the sort of crap that we had to put up with living in Alaska
except that sometimes it was a 3-hour flight rather than a 3-hour drive.
Your situation seems so odd -- these are scarcely some sort of rarely-used
magical devices and many applications really do need them all the time.

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 14:57:31 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

On 11/12/2017 2:03 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 08:04:25 -0500, John McGaw
wrote:

On 11/11/2017 3:16 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
We have a Canavac XLS970 central vac unit ( replacing our original
Beam) with an 8.4 inch dual stage Ametec-Lamb motor rated at 13.4amps.
It is running on about 50 frrt of AWG14 Romex on a 15 amp breaker.
Sporadically, on initial startup, it will pop the breaker (Square D
QO15). Upon further investigation, reading Square D's information, I
found they make a "high magnetic" 15 amp breaker for "high performance
loads" like AC, CwntralVac, and microwave applications with a high
"pull-in" current.

Nobody in Ontario has the darn things in stock - Rona did, but since
being taken over by Lowes, they no longer even have them available.

I could wait 'till next week and have the electrical supply order me
one in - but I wanted to fix it NOW --

Turns out the 240 volt (double polet) 15 amp QO breakers are ALL High
Magnetic - and I had a spare one, and a spare slot in my panel - so
I've replaced the single pole with the double pole - we will see what
happens,

Just thought you guys might be interested in knowing the little
tid-bit about the "high magnetic" breaker fix for intermittent
nuisance tripping


I had to put a high-trip mag breaker on one circuit which was serving my
shop dust collector. Around here it was a matter of going to the nearest
big-box store -- both Lowe's and Home Depot had them available -- and this
is in a decidedly less populated area than Ontario.

Home Despot Canada doesn't carry them at all. Nor does Lowes Canada.
Rona Canada used to carry them, Rona was recently absorbed by Lowes.
Home Despot in the USA apparently DOES carry them but both Buffalo and
Detroit are about 3 hours away.

In Quebec Reno Depot carries the high magnetic breakers in their
stores. That's well over a 5 hour drive.

Sounds like the sort of crap that we had to put up with living in Alaska
except that sometimes it was a 3-hour flight rather than a 3-hour drive.
Your situation seems so odd -- these are scarcely some sort of rarely-used
magical devices and many applications really do need them all the time.


A lot of the problem here is American companies who see Canada as too
small a market to bother complying with our bi-lingual labelling
requirements. No french labels means no sale in Canada. I think youcan
sell in Quebec with french only labelling - which may be why SOME
things are avaiable in quebec only - the quebec based outlet doing
their own labeling?

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

On 11-Nov-17 9:44 PM, Iggy wrote:
replying to Clare Snyder, Iggy wrote:
....

However, an intermittent trip may be pointing to a short in the branch
wiring or the power-head impeller being jammed or defective motor windings...

Nonsense...any of those would not be intermittent.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:32:38 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

But the OCD's purpose isn't to protect the motor, rather the wiring.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:32:38 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

But the OCD's purpose isn't to protect the motor, rather the wiring.

Just answering questions about code with code.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:24:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:32:38 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

But the OCD's purpose isn't to protect the motor, rather the wiring.

Just answering questions about code with code.

It sounded like justification for a 20A OCD on #14 wire. A larger OCD,
local to the motor, I get, but with 30' of Romex between?

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:33:57 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:24:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:32:38 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

But the OCD's purpose isn't to protect the motor, rather the wiring.

Just answering questions about code with code.

It sounded like justification for a 20A OCD on #14 wire. A larger OCD,
local to the motor, I get, but with 30' of Romex between?

I'm told buy guys more knoledgeable than myself that it iis both
legal and common on dedicated motor circuits. The wire is very capable
of handling half a second of 40 or even 60 amps - required to start
some motors. Short circuit protection is still provided and thermal
overload protection of the motor protects the wire from overload.

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 22:53:12 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:33:57 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 21:24:13 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 18:49:46 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 17:32:38 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Nov 2017 11:57:41 -0800 (PST), whit3rd
wrote:

On Sunday, November 12, 2017 at 10:55:53 AM UTC-8, Clare Snyder wrote:

[about breaker tripping]

If the high-mag 15 doesn't solve the issue a high-mag 20 will take
it's place.

According to the NEC (US electrical safety code) a 20A breaker is not compatible with
a 14 ga branch circuit.






Overcurrent protection for motors is different than protection for
other types of electrical loads, and the values you come up with might
not seem right based on your experience with other types of
applications. Protecting a 14 AWG conductor with a 30A circuit
breaker, for example, just looks wrong. But keep in mind that motor
branch circuit conductors are protected against overloads by the
overload device. That device is sized between 115% and 125% of the
motor nameplate current rating [430.32].

The small conductor rule contained in 240.4(D), which limits 15A
protection for 14 AWG, doesn’t apply to motor circuit protection. See
240.4(D) and 240.4(G).

But the OCD's purpose isn't to protect the motor, rather the wiring.

Just answering questions about code with code.

It sounded like justification for a 20A OCD on #14 wire. A larger OCD,
local to the motor, I get, but with 30' of Romex between?

I'm told buy guys more knoledgeable than myself that it iis both
legal and common on dedicated motor circuits. The wire is very capable
of handling half a second of 40 or even 60 amps - required to start
some motors. Short circuit protection is still provided and thermal
overload protection of the motor protects the wire from overload.

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
....

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

--

replying to dpb, Iggy wrote:
Nonsense...any of those would not be intermittent.
Uh huh, sure. You know what you're talking about.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodwo...er-812094-.htm

On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 4:44:05 PM UTC-5, Iggy wrote:
replying to dpb, Iggy wrote:
Nonsense...any of those would not be intermittent.
Uh huh, sure. You know what you're talking about.


Is that a quote from a previous post?

Who are you and what did you do with Iggy? (Not that we mind if you made him
go away)

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

Again, not the point. OCDs are there to protect the wiring during a
failure. Motors, or devices with motors never fail?

replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
Come on, it's the 3rd time I did it for you and the last.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodwo...er-812094-.htm

On 13-Nov-17 7:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

Au contraire, IS the point and why there's a difference in NEC for
dedicated motor circuit...

....

--

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:59:05 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

Again, not the point. OCDs are there to protect the wiring during a
failure. Motors, or devices with motors never fail?



The SHORT circuit protection is still there. short is an
instantaneous very high current spike that will still trip the breaker
IMMEDIATELY

On Monday, November 13, 2017 at 11:14:08 PM UTC-5, Iggy wrote:
replying to DerbyDad03, Iggy wrote:
Come on, it's the 3rd time I did it for you and the last.


It's OK to admit that you did it in error.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 23:21:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 7:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

Au contraire, IS the point and why there's a difference in NEC for
dedicated motor circuit...

OK, why? The fault that the OCD is there to safe is still there.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:12:22 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:59:05 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

Again, not the point. OCDs are there to protect the wiring during a
failure. Motors, or devices with motors never fail?



The SHORT circuit protection is still there. short is an
instantaneous very high current spike that will still trip the breaker
IMMEDIATELY

But that is *not* why the OCD is there. Are you saying that motors
can never fail?

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:33:21 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:12:22 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:59:05 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

Again, not the point. OCDs are there to protect the wiring during a
failure. Motors, or devices with motors never fail?



The SHORT circuit protection is still there. short is an
instantaneous very high current spike that will still trip the breaker
IMMEDIATELY

But that is *not* why the OCD is there. Are you saying that motors
can never fail?


No, I'm saying motors have built-in thermal protection, and a "motor
failure" will increase current by 5 amps pretty darn quick - so the
circuit breaker will still protect the wire. I wouldn't go stupid and
install a 30 (or heaven forbid a 40) amp breaker.

I'm pretty sure the high-mag breaker will do the job anyway, given
the symptoms and amp draw readings I'm getting.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 22:37:29 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 21:33:21 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 14 Nov 2017 01:12:22 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:59:05 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 13 Nov 2017 15:09:25 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 13-Nov-17 12:06 PM, wrote:
...

Sure, but why is that wire less susceptible to a short than a wire not
feeding a motor? If the OCD is there to protect the wire, it doesn't
matter what fails on the other end of it.

It isn't, but a short is by definition a high-current event so the size
of the breaker is essentially immaterial.

That's not my point. Forget the motor operation. What happens when
it, or the outlet itself, shorts?

The amperage rating of the breaker protects against continuous
overcurrent; the motor is different in that the high current only lasts
for a few msec at most; the current draw is well within the ampacity of
the wire otherwise.

Again, not the point. OCDs are there to protect the wiring during a
failure. Motors, or devices with motors never fail?



The SHORT circuit protection is still there. short is an
instantaneous very high current spike that will still trip the breaker
IMMEDIATELY

But that is *not* why the OCD is there. Are you saying that motors
can never fail?


No, I'm saying motors have built-in thermal protection, and a "motor
failure" will increase current by 5 amps pretty darn quick - so the
circuit breaker will still protect the wire. I wouldn't go stupid and
install a 30 (or heaven forbid a 40) amp breaker.

What's the difference? Nothing can go wrong.

I'm pretty sure the high-mag breaker will do the job anyway, given
the symptoms and amp draw readings I'm getting.

This sounds like a much better option.

On 14-Nov-17 8:32 PM, wrote:
....

OK, why? The fault that the OCD is there to safe is still there.

Precisely _because_ it is a motor circuit and motors are different and
NEC understands that.

It's all in Section 430 but short story is as outlined above; ampacity
of the wire is determined for FLA of the motor; the breaker/fusing is
sized to allow to be able to handle inrush starting current and the LRA
or similar _continuous_ overcurrent protection is _NOT_ provided by the
breaker but the _REQUIRED_ thermal protection for the motor (and thereby
the wiring as well).

IOW, there's a second layer of protection besides the branch circuit
breaker of a "normal" branch circuit you're used to that isn't in the
lighting/general use circuit which relies on the one device for both
functions.

--

On 15-Nov-17 8:53 AM, dpb wrote:
....

... _continuous_ overcurrent protection is _NOT_ provided by the
breaker but the _REQUIRED_ thermal protection for the motor (and thereby
the wiring as well).
....

And, if the thermal protection is built into/comes with the motor,
that's allowable; larger motors of the woodworking-shop class generally
have "heaters" located in the starter enclosure that can be simply
inline fusible links that serve the purpose or the "thermal reset"
button in a motor that is just a circuit breaker or there are similar
resettable heaters as well.

Doesn't matter _where_ the device is, specifically, but must be there by
Code.

--