I would like to repair and reinforce a 1930's Lincoln double pedestal
office desk to use as a base for a metalworking lathe. The desk appears
to have been made by the Commercial Furniture Company of Chicago. It's
well-used but no wood is broken, however one mortise and tenon joint in
a leg has come apart.

It's not obvious to me how to disassemble it for repair, nor what adhesives
to use. Since it was mass-produced, I'm hopeful that somebody will know how
to get it apart without further damage. Web searches came up empty, so the
subject is obscure or I didn't use the right keywords.

One curious thing (to me) is that many of the plywood panels in drawer
bottoms and pedestal sides appear to be free-floating in their rabbets.
Seems that the desk would be much stronger if they were glued in place.
Did they just come loose over time?

The desk is nice enough that I don't want to butcher it, but since it was
sitting by the curb with a "free" tag on it it's unlikely to be a treasure
warranting museum treatment.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

On 8/8/2017 8:25 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
I would like to repair and reinforce a 1930's Lincoln double pedestal
office desk to use as a base for a metalworking lathe.

The desk is nice enough that I don't want to butcher it, but since it was
sitting by the curb with a "free" tag on it it's unlikely to be a treasure
warranting museum treatment.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

Why not post a couple of photos of it just in case? People have tossed
some real treasures due to lack of knowledge.

I don't think it would be my first choice for a lathe in any case.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Why not post a couple of photos of it just in case? People have tossed
some real treasures due to lack of knowledge.

Probably a good idea, it'll provide an opportunity to show the damage
as well. In the meantime I hope somebody chimes in with some guidance
on how it went together. It's rather surprising there isn't more info
on the Web, the Commercial Furniture Company was apparently a big deal
at one time.

I don't think it would be my first choice for a lathe in any case.

Mor is it mine, but it's an improvement over the existing bench.

Thanks for replying!

bob prohaska

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:30:07 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:

It's not obvious to me how to disassemble it for repair, nor what adhesives
to use.

The top should separate from the pedestals'assembly fairly easily. If there's not any fasteners readily visible on the exterior, then they are inside the carcass, inside the drawers. Probably metal fasteners, like "L" brackets.

Once the top is off, the two pedestals are held together by a spanning element (panel), between the two. Again, there is likely metal fasteners holding the spanning element to each pedestal.

If there is no visible fasteners, look closely for a screw site. The screw may be recessed, with a plug hiding the screw head. The spanning panel would likely have to be fairly thick, to have recessed screws, that way.

I think you would need to remove the top and probably the spanning panel, before you can properly access the damaged leg(s). I would think there is more than one M&T joint along each leg and, if one is disjointed, then the other has likely been compromised, as well.

The general design of almost every double pedestal desk is very similar. Rather than google Lincoln pedestal desk, try oak roll top desk. I highly suspect your desk is assembled, basically, the same way, in some similar fashion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VpXtbgHXMg

Once your basic assembly is disassembled, then you can address the assembly (repair) of any individual part. If your desk is assembled differently, in some unique way, then maybe you have some special piece of furniture.

Yep, pics would definitely help.

Sonny

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 7:07:54 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:30:07 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:

It's not obvious to me how to disassemble it for repair, nor what adhesives
to use.

The top should separate from the pedestals'assembly fairly easily.

Maybe look for some top attachment as this assembly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s18_azBhkP0

Sonny

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:30:07 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:
I would like to repair and reinforce a 1930's Lincoln double pedestal
office desk to use as a base for a metalworking lathe. The desk appears
to have been made by the Commercial Furniture Company of Chicago. It's
well-used but no wood is broken, however one mortise and tenon joint in
a leg has come apart.

It's not obvious to me how to disassemble it for repair, nor what adhesives
to use. Since it was mass-produced, I'm hopeful that somebody will know how
to get it apart without further damage. Web searches came up empty, so the
subject is obscure or I didn't use the right keywords.

One curious thing (to me) is that many of the plywood panels in drawer
bottoms and pedestal sides appear to be free-floating in their rabbets.
Seems that the desk would be much stronger if they were glued in place.
Did they just come loose over time?

The desk is nice enough that I don't want to butcher it, but since it was
sitting by the curb with a "free" tag on it it's unlikely to be a treasure
warranting museum treatment.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

UNLESS you are intending to mount a mini-lathe forget it. On the joint, you will have to completely remove that stile, which means opening up the other joints. Given the age, a heat gun may well soften the glue in the joints enough to allow you to get the stile off. Depending on the condition of the original, offending, joint, you might want to consider two part epoxy for reassembly.

On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:30:07 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:
I would like to repair and reinforce a 1930's Lincoln double pedestal
office desk to use as a base for a metalworking lathe.

A friend asked me to repair her oak roll top desk.... it's still in my shop.. One castor collapsed, so the support board had broken, detached. The whole desk is in horrible shape, not only after obviously having been racked, because of the broken castor unit, but the rest of the desk is filthy-dirty and the roll top (canvas attachment is dry-rotted, crumbling) is falling apart, completely. Initially, I was to repair the castor issue, only, but once I told her of other issues, she wanted me to do, what amounted to, a complete restoration. I told her "No way. Get a dedicated restorer to do it."

Considering how double pedestal desks are constructed, if your desk has a M&T joint issue, there may very likely be other issues with the desk. How might your desk have become damaged, that way (only one M&T joint?), as it has? I can't imagine it has only that one damage issue. There may very well likely be other issues with your desk. You better inspect it carefully, if you will use it for a metal lathe support.... or any lathe support.

Sonny

bob prohaska writes:

One curious thing (to me) is that many of the plywood panels in drawer
bottoms and pedestal sides appear to be free-floating in their rabbets.
Seems that the desk would be much stronger if they were glued in place.
Did they just come loose over time?


The panels are supposed to float because they expand and contract
with changes in humidity. If they were glued in place, they'd crack
or blow out the cope&stick mortices. Now generally, that only
applies to solid wood panels, but it doesn't hurt to leave plywood
panels floating.

Sonny wrote:

Yep, pics would definitely help.


Ok, I've put a few pictures at

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndesk/

There are metal clips, each with a single screw, under the edge of
the top at the juncture with the legs, plus two in the middle of the
ends. Evidently I should start by removing the screws to see if the
top will then lift off.

The damaged M&T joint is at the occupant's far right. I'd imagine it
was whacked on something while being moved. No other damage is apparent.

The lathe is an old South Bend 10K, about 300 lbs, with 48" bed. It
will span the pedestals nicely. The reinforcement plan is to mount
a false top, possibly a laminate countertop section, with the lathe
bolted to that. I'm also contemplating bolting/screwing a sheet of
plywood to the bottom of the desk, covering the foot-hole, to make
a box structure. I believe that will offer considerable reinforcement.

Thanks to all for reading, looking and guiding!

bob prohaska

"bob prohaska" wrote in message
news
Sonny wrote:

Yep, pics would definitely help.


Ok, I've put a few pictures at

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndesk/

There are metal clips, each with a single screw, under the edge of
the top at the juncture with the legs, plus two in the middle of the
ends. Evidently I should start by removing the screws to see if the
top will then lift off.

The damaged M&T joint is at the occupant's far right. I'd imagine it
was whacked on something while being moved. No other damage is apparent.

The lathe is an old South Bend 10K, about 300 lbs, with 48" bed. It
will span the pedestals nicely. The reinforcement plan is to mount
a false top, possibly a laminate countertop section, with the lathe
bolted to that. I'm also contemplating bolting/screwing a sheet of
plywood to the bottom of the desk, covering the foot-hole, to make
a box structure. I believe that will offer considerable reinforcement.

I looked at your pix. If it were me I'd wipe some thickened epoxy on the
loosened tenon and whack it home. If you are a worrier, pin the tenon by
drilling through from the outside and inserting a dowel or two. You could
dowel the joints that aren't separated too.

You aren't planning on putting much of a load on it and the load will all be
downward. That should have no effect on the pedestal structures
separating. I am sure many will say, "No, no, you need to disassemble all,
clean and reassemble so the thing has the approximate strength of a
battleship". That is their opinion, not mine. Why do you think it needs
reinforcement?

On 8/9/2017 12:38 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Sonny wrote:

Yep, pics would definitely help.


Ok, I've put a few pictures at

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndesk/

There are metal clips, each with a single screw, under the edge of
the top at the juncture with the legs, plus two in the middle of the
ends. Evidently I should start by removing the screws to see if the
top will then lift off.

The damaged M&T joint is at the occupant's far right. I'd imagine it
was whacked on something while being moved. No other damage is apparent.

The lathe is an old South Bend 10K, about 300 lbs, with 48" bed. It
will span the pedestals nicely. The reinforcement plan is to mount
a false top, possibly a laminate countertop section, with the lathe
bolted to that. I'm also contemplating bolting/screwing a sheet of
plywood to the bottom of the desk, covering the foot-hole, to make
a box structure. I believe that will offer considerable reinforcement.

Thanks to all for reading, looking and guiding!

bob prohaska



I have a Southbend 9A I would recommend you pick up a oil plan , the
type you slide under the car to catch drips. Mine is always full of oil
from the cutting oil.

http://woodchucker.imgur.com/

That desk has no value other than what value you put in it.
If you have MT that are loose, see if you can pry it open slightly and
use heat to re-activate the hide glue in there, then clamp it
If not see if yellow glue will bond it. Epoxy will also work. You can
dowel peg the MT to keep them tight, don't use big honking dowels, use
small ones that hold the Tenon in the Mortise.

--
Jeff

On 8/9/2017 8:42 AM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Tuesday, August 8, 2017 at 7:30:07 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:
I would like to repair and reinforce a 1930's Lincoln double pedestal
office desk to use as a base for a metalworking lathe. The desk appears
to have been made by the Commercial Furniture Company of Chicago. It's
well-used but no wood is broken, however one mortise and tenon joint in
a leg has come apart.

It's not obvious to me how to disassemble it for repair, nor what adhesives
to use. Since it was mass-produced, I'm hopeful that somebody will know how
to get it apart without further damage. Web searches came up empty, so the
subject is obscure or I didn't use the right keywords.

One curious thing (to me) is that many of the plywood panels in drawer
bottoms and pedestal sides appear to be free-floating in their rabbets.
Seems that the desk would be much stronger if they were glued in place.
Did they just come loose over time?

The desk is nice enough that I don't want to butcher it, but since it was
sitting by the curb with a "free" tag on it it's unlikely to be a treasure
warranting museum treatment.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

UNLESS you are intending to mount a mini-lathe forget it. On the joint, you will have to completely remove that stile, which means opening up the other joints. Given the age, a heat gun may well soften the glue in the joints enough to allow you to get the stile off. Depending on the condition of the original, offending, joint, you might want to consider two part epoxy for reassembly.


I disagree. That MT looks vertical, and will offer plenty of support if
done correctly.



--
Jeff

On 8/9/2017 12:38 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Sonny wrote:

Yep, pics would definitely help.


Ok, I've put a few pictures at

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndesk/

There are metal clips, each with a single screw, under the edge of
the top at the juncture with the legs, plus two in the middle of the
ends. Evidently I should start by removing the screws to see if the
top will then lift off.


From the minimal research I did, it looks like it could be worth a few
hundred if refinished. The ones selling for $10k and up are a bit
fancier.

woodchucker wrote:
That MT looks vertical, and will offer plenty of support if
done correctly.


Sorry, the photo is confusing (I had the desk tipped up on end) and
the loose mortise and tenon joint is horizontal. If one sits at the
desk and scoots it to the writer's left the joint opens.

Apologies for the confusion!

bob prohaska

dadiOH wrote:
Why do you think it needs
reinforcement?


Mostly I don't want to mount the lathe and then discover the desk is
coming apart under it. It's relatively little work to add gussets and
whatnot now, it'll be a lot more work later. There's also some good
chance the lathe will get scooted around the garage on a jack to make
clearance for other work from time to time. That's apt to be hard on
the desk, no matter how careful I am.

Basically it's the ounce of prevention versus the pound of cure syndrome.

8-)

bob prohaska

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

From the minimal research I did, it looks like it could be worth a few
hundred if refinished. The ones selling for $10k and up are a bit
fancier.

That sounds plausible, but after one takes out the cost of materials
I suspect the net for the refinisher would be no more than $20/hr.

bob prohaska

Scott Lurndal wrote:

The panels are supposed to float because they expand and contract
with changes in humidity. If they were glued in place, they'd crack
or blow out the cope&stick mortices. Now generally, that only
applies to solid wood panels, but it doesn't hurt to leave plywood
panels floating.

I'm very glad you wrote, being otherwise tempted to glue them in!

With my thanks,

bob prohaska

On 8/9/2017 6:47 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

From the minimal research I did, it looks like it could be worth a few
hundred if refinished. The ones selling for $10k and up are a bit
fancier.

That sounds plausible, but after one takes out the cost of materials
I suspect the net for the refinisher would be no more than $20/hr.

bob prohaska


Hard to evaluate from a photo, but it is not just about money. If it is
solid wood with good joinery you can end up with a really nice piece of
furniture. If it is cheap veneer and termite ridden and delaminating,
not worth the effort but could make a nice fire. I did see one old desk
that would be nice for the grandkids to use to color on. It was $48,000.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Hard to evaluate from a photo, but it is not just about money. If it is
solid wood with good joinery you can end up with a really nice piece of
furniture. If it is cheap veneer and termite ridden and delaminating,
not worth the effort but could make a nice fire. I did see one old desk
that would be nice for the grandkids to use to color on. It was $48,000.

That you didn't add a smiley face suggests high esteem for their artistry!

Here are two more photos of the damage, taken with the top off and the
break sprung open a little:

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndes...turefulllength

http://www.zefox.net/~bob/lincolndesk/fracturetopview

It looks fairly straightforward to re-coat the joint with glue and push it
back together. That leaves the dilemma of which glue to use.

The drops of old glue strewn around soften slowly and get slimy when
dampened with cold water, so it's likely to be hide glue. The only
hide glue I've seen at local retail is TiteBond liquid hide glue, but I'm
a little wary of it. Seems like it would be prone to spoilage on the
shelf. Does anybody following this thread have good experience with it?

Granulated hide glue is available on the web and not necessarily expensive;
is it worth the extra time and trouble? If you have a brand or supplier
recommendation please share it.

Thanks to all for reading and guiding a novice!

bob prohaska

On Wednesday, August 9, 2017 at 12:09:07 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:


I looked at your pix. If it were me I'd wipe some thickened epoxy on the
loosened tenon and whack it home. If you are a worrier, pin the tenon by
drilling through from the outside and inserting a dowel or two. You could
dowel the joints that aren't separated too.

I vote epoxy and dowel, also.

That fracture full length - scrape off the dried glue and epoxy that dislodged joint... maybe epoxy a block along the length, as well, is there's enough space. I think this is a close-up pic, which looks like a panel. The next pic (fracture top view) is, as you say, more clear of the situation. Again, I vote epoxy & pin.... minus the previously suggested block along the length.

Medallion indicates 1930-1940, if you hadn't already known.

Desk top looks like it has been used as a work bench/table.

I'm gonna go out on a limb. The desk is in pretty good structural shape. Clean it up and refinish it, make it look like a desk, again. Place a new top over the original, without damaging the refinished top. The desk doesn't appear to need reinforcing, for your lathe, so maybe rethink that.

As for as modifying the structure, for moving the lathe work desk/table, consider making a mobile base, with a foot lever to lift one end for lifting off the rollers on one end, then lowering the lever places the feet back on the floor. There is one or two guys... Jeff?, aka WoodChucker..., here, that has built a mobile base feature for their work benches or one of their tools.... I can't recall.

I'm partial to old furniture, that's why I would try to preserve the desk, itself, if reasonable. Just a thought of mine.


Yeah, and collect some 1930s - 1940s pennies and stash them in your lathe cabinet, as well. *Additional medallions.

Sonny

Continuing my conservative approach...

It's a production piece, probably not expensive, no significant provenance either of maker or owners (*other than present owner?), but seems to be well made. It has a simple, not complicated, exterior design.... quaint in overall appearance. It's approaching 100 yrs old. There are likely very few of these particular style desk still in existence.

There's the maxim "Primum nil nocere", do no harm. I vote to, at least, give this some consideration with your modifications, if possible.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:

There's the maxim "Primum nil nocere", do no harm. I vote to,
at least, give this some consideration with your modifications, if possible.


What are your thoughts on using hide glue?
Epoxy seems counter to the principle....

I agree the piece is nice enough to be spared wanton hackery. It's also
small enough to be used in a home.

There little doubt that drilling holes in the top is a bad idea, a false
top a much better one. Whether I should brace the bottom is less clear, but
if I do and use hide glue to fasten the brace it can be removed.

If I don't brace the bottom, overload the desk and other joints start
to pop then I have a somewhat larger mess on my hands.

With my thanks!

bob prohaska

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 11:07:34 AM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:

What are your thoughts on using hide glue?
Epoxy seems counter to the principle....

Hide glue is fine. If you can open the joint enough to clean it well, then reapplication of hide glue will do just fine. If you can't clean the joint well enough, epoxy might be your best adhesive option for a "dirty" joint, less than perfect(?) joint.


I agree the piece is nice enough to be spared wanton hackery. It's also
small enough to be used in a home.

There little doubt that drilling holes in the top is a bad idea, a false
top a much better one. Whether I should brace the bottom is less clear, but
if I do and use hide glue to fasten the brace it can be removed.

The idea of a mobile base: If you can make a sufficient mobile base, such that to fit within the desk's legs, appropriately, and *all (conservation of the original (legs, structure) and maintain a solid support for your lathe)... and *all remain well, then you could possibly have the best of both worlds. I'm not sure what mobile base design might be best for your desk, that's why I mentioned other guys' having made mobile bases, that if a mobile base is an option, they could possibly give you some ideas of constructing one.

Sometimes when I'm making stuff, I end up adding to the original "work order".... create more work for myself, as a project progresses. A bad habit that I'm displaying, here. And now, I'm putting the burden of the proposed modification/design/construction, of the suggested mobile base option, on the other guys, here.

I'm out on that limb, now, and not quite sure how to real myself back in..... without some help.

I, simply, like old/older pieces and I get excited about preserving them, in some fashion.

And I'm about to abandon you, as to any follow-up with *assistance. I'm leaving for vacation, Saturday, so I won't be here to comment or encourage you, until September. But I suppose you'll do a good repair and modification job and keep the integrity of the desk as best intact, as you can.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:

Hide glue is fine. If you can open the joint enough to clean it well, then reapplication of hide glue will do just fine. If you can't clean the joint well enough, epoxy might be your best adhesive option for a "dirty" joint, less than perfect(?) joint.


This has me confused: I thought one point of hide glue is that it sticks
to itself, so can be reapplied and reassembled. I thought it was synthetic
glue that had to be cleaned off.

Do I have the story backwards?

And I'm about to abandon you, as to any follow-up with *assistance. I'm leaving for vacation, Saturday, so I won't be here to comment or encourage you, until September. But I suppose you'll do a good repair and modification job and keep the integrity of the desk as best intact, as you can.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I hope it's justified!

bob prohaska

On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 6:42:55 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:


This has me confused: I thought one point of hide glue is that it sticks
to itself, so can be reapplied and reassembled.

Correct. But if the joint has any other debris (dirt, sawdust, powder post beetle dust, etc.), clean it out if you can, then use hide glue. I can't see inside the joint as well as you, to see if there is any abnormal junk in the joint. If there is something abnormal in there, that can't be removed, then epoxy might be the better option for an adhesive.

As for as cleaning those drips, shown in pic "fracture full length", at first I thought that was a panel (you had mentioned loose panels). I thought to add a long block, along the *panel length, to help with that attachment.. For the addition of a block, there, I meant to suggest removing the drips for the block to sit flat on the *panel.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 6:42:55 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:


This has me confused: I thought one point of hide glue is that it sticks
to itself, so can be reapplied and reassembled.

Correct. But if the joint has any other debris (dirt, sawdust, powder
post beetle dust, etc.), clean it out if you can, then use hide glue.

Ok, that's a relief. The joint is clean end-to-end.

I now have to decide what glue to use and order it. Nothing seems available
at local retail.

Have a good vacation, and thank you!

bob prohaska

On 8/11/2017 4:36 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, August 10, 2017 at 6:42:55 PM UTC-5, bob prohaska wrote:


This has me confused: I thought one point of hide glue is that it sticks
to itself, so can be reapplied and reassembled.

Correct. But if the joint has any other debris (dirt, sawdust, powder
post beetle dust, etc.), clean it out if you can, then use hide glue.

Ok, that's a relief. The joint is clean end-to-end.

I now have to decide what glue to use and order it. Nothing seems available
at local retail.

Have a good vacation, and thank you!

bob prohaska


Keep in mind also that if the joint is cleaned out beyond snug, you make
the tenon a touch smaller or the mortise a touch larger, you will want
to shim to fill the cavity. Few glues have a gap filling feature that
is strong.

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Keep in mind also that if the joint is cleaned out beyond snug, you make
the tenon a touch smaller or the mortise a touch larger, you will want
to shim to fill the cavity. Few glues have a gap filling feature that
is strong.

The fit seems quite good; No material seems to have been lost, it was
a clean fracture through the glue, apparently. I'd be hard pressed to
improve it.

A local art supply shop offered to order a half pound of rabbit glue,
which is hard to resist, both for price and the fact that I'm fixing
a rabbet joint 8-) It turns out there's no separate tenon in the cross
members, they are milled to match the edge of the center panel.

The stuff is sold as sizing for painter's canvas, but from what I've
read most people seem to consider it a reasonably good glue, somewhat
less brittle than cabinetmaking hide glue. I'll make a few test joints
before using it for keeps.

If anybody thinks this is a gross folly please warn me.

Thanks for reading!

bob prohaska

On Saturday, August 12, 2017 at 3:20:17 PM UTC-7, bob prohaska wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

Keep in mind also that if the joint is cleaned out beyond snug, you make
the tenon a touch smaller or the mortise a touch larger, you will want
to shim t...

The fit seems quite good; No material seems to have been lost, it was
a clean fracture through the glue, apparently. I'd be hard pressed to
improve it.

A local art supply shop offered to order a half pound of rabbit glue,

Yeah, that or hide glue is the best solution, because on this vintage of furniture,
it's gonna stick even if the original (also hide glue) adhesive isn't all cleaned out.

Beware, though, it's usually a kind of hot-melt glue, you'll need a
glue pot and hotplate and have to assemble before it hardens.

If one joint has gone brittle and failed, perhaps others are brittle but
have not yet failed.

whit3rd wrote:

Beware, though, it's usually a kind of hot-melt glue, you'll need a
glue pot and hotplate and have to assemble before it hardens.

Since it's only one joint I'll try a hot plate and water bath with
a thermometer. A few test joints on scrap wood ought to provide
a sense of how it handles. I'm near Sacramento, CA, so keeping things
warm is easy, just put them in the sun. The trick then is sticking the
joint before _I_ melt 8-)

If one joint has gone brittle and failed, perhaps others are brittle but
have not yet failed.

That's a reasonable concern. Far as I can tell all the other joints in
the piece are sound. The one that failed most likely broke when somebody
skidded the desk and snagged the leg; there's considerable scuff damage
to the feet.

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska