I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


--
2017: The year we lean to play the great game of Euchre

Keith Nuttle wrote:

I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.

If you have enough bulbs to check to justify a $120 investment...

https://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-221...dp/B007EEXAQG/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxTMF8mAXVo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQ4nQgiaYK4

Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

--
GW Ross

"G Ross" wrote in message news
Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

***************

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two
tubes. When I notice one acting flakey I just replace both of them. Some
of my 8 footers are 10 years old, and I have yet to replace a ballast. All
of the cans are ten years old.

When I was a kid one of my chores was replacing the tubes in the 4' cans
above the drop ceiling in our family grocery store. I also had to replace a
number of ballasts over the years. One day I asked my dad if he thought the
bulbs being bad were affecting the ballasts. He made a couple phone calls
and said lets try just replacing all the bulbs on a can the instant one
starts acting up and see. I replaced one or two ballasts over the next
year, and then not another one until the day I left home.

I don't know how many ballasts my dad replaced after I left home, but...

A few years ago my dad stated with authority that if a tube starts acting
you should just replace all the tubes on the can as your ballasts will last
longer if you do. I'm not sure if he remembers our conversation from over
35 years ago, but I do.

I've never heard or read an "authority" state that to be the case, but I
pretty much believe it. Given what a ballast costs I think its cheaper to
just replace all the tubes the instant one tube starts to flicker or act
flakey. For somebody who might need to hire an electrician the cost of a
bad ballast is much more.

"Bob La Londe" writes:

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two

"Cans" is not the appropiate term. Fixture is. Recessed fluorescent
fixtures are generally known as troffers.

On 7/31/2017 1:12 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

Almost always they begin to darken on the end/ends.



I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.



I have found that this can often be simply the connection. Wiggle the
light and it comes back on. There is very little contact area on the
terminals. If the connection is not good the spot can corrode.

On 7/31/2017 2:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"G Ross" wrote in message news
Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

***************

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two
tubes. When I notice one acting flakey I just replace both of them.
Some of my 8 footers are 10 years old, and I have yet to replace a
ballast. All of the cans are ten years old.

When I was a kid one of my chores was replacing the tubes in the 4' cans
above the drop ceiling in our family grocery store. I also had to
replace a number of ballasts over the years. One day I asked my dad if
he thought the bulbs being bad were affecting the ballasts. He made a
couple phone calls and said lets try just replacing all the bulbs on a
can the instant one starts acting up and see. I replaced one or two
ballasts over the next year, and then not another one until the day I
left home.

I don't know how many ballasts my dad replaced after I left home, but...

A few years ago my dad stated with authority that if a tube starts
acting you should just replace all the tubes on the can as your ballasts
will last longer if you do. I'm not sure if he remembers our
conversation from over 35 years ago, but I do.

I've never heard or read an "authority" state that to be the case, but I
pretty much believe it. Given what a ballast costs I think its cheaper
to just replace all the tubes the instant one tube starts to flicker or
act flakey. For somebody who might need to hire an electrician the cost
of a bad ballast is much more.



I was once told be a lighting salesman that the failing tubes can cause
a ballast to go bad. Cheaper to replace all tubes, maybe. I have 4
tube fixtures and the ballasts cost $12. If the lamps poops out shortly
after turning dark it is probably less expensive to replace the tubes at
first sign, but I have seen dark ends on some tubes for months with
nothing really going wrong.

On 7/31/2017 2:50 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"Bob La Londe" writes:

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two

"Cans" is not the appropiate term. Fixture is. Recessed fluorescent
fixtures are generally known as troffers.


IIRC the can, is the can "in" the ceiling.

On 7/31/2017 2:12 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.



It has been proven by a few studies in plant and office operations that
all bulbs should be replaced at the same time. They have a different
situation in that they have a paid maintenance crew but the economics of
time and getting equipment to the site you do it all. Some
manufacturing companies will do an entire section of a building once a
certain amount of lamps are out. Of course, they are using lifts to get
to 20' or higher ceilings.

I don't worry about testing. I replace them all at the same time.

On 7/31/2017 2:12 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.



Being in a church I'm going to make an assumption that the lamps are
T-12. That means they are the 1" wide lamps which are becoming obsolete
and/or expensive to purchase. If they are the T-12 and you will replace
with the same, then change both lamps instead of one. I say both lamps
since usually they have two ballast per 4 lamp fixture but if it's one
ballast, then change them all.

Today's universal T-8 ballasts are much more efficient and when one lamp
fails, the others will still function. Then you can just replace the
failed lamp. When one T-12 lamp fails, the others on the same ballast
will stop functioning but resume when the failed lamp is replaced.

On 7/31/2017 4:52 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/31/2017 2:12 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is
replaced the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to
test the tube to see if even though working it should be replaced.



It has been proven by a few studies in plant and office operations that
all bulbs should be replaced at the same time. They have a different
situation in that they have a paid maintenance crew but the economics of
time and getting equipment to the site you do it all. Some
manufacturing companies will do an entire section of a building once a
certain amount of lamps are out. Of course, they are using lifts to get
to 20' or higher ceilings.

I don't worry about testing. I replace them all at the same time.

The key point is location of fixtures and type of lamps. T-8 lamps don't
require all to be replaced if one fails. Though, if location is high
which requires anything beyond an 8 foot ladder, then yes, it is
recommended to replace all.

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 12:59:50 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:

I was once told be a lighting salesman that the failing tubes can cause
a ballast to go bad. Cheaper to replace all tubes, maybe.

Replacing all tubes, if it's at all difficult to reach the fixture, is certainly
a good idea (won't save much money trying to get the last ten percent
of life out of a tube that's turning dark). The 'cause a ballast to go bad'
is probably obsolete, the old iron ballasts would sometimes overheat when
a tube went out.

The reason, is that the tube going out could result in accidental rectification of
the current (and magnetize/saturate/overheat the ballast).

New (electronic) ballasts don't do that.

On 7/31/2017 3:53 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 12:59:50 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:

I was once told be a lighting salesman that the failing tubes can cause
a ballast to go bad. Cheaper to replace all tubes, maybe.

Replacing all tubes, if it's at all difficult to reach the fixture, is certainly
a good idea (won't save much money trying to get the last ten percent
of life out of a tube that's turning dark). The 'cause a ballast to go bad'
is probably obsolete, the old iron ballasts would sometimes overheat when
a tube went out.

The reason, is that the tube going out could result in accidental rectification of
the current (and magnetize/saturate/overheat the ballast).

New (electronic) ballasts don't do that.

BELL LAB PROVES EXISTENCE OF DARK SUCKERS!
For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light.
However, recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise.
Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus they now call
these bulbs dark suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a
spokesman from the Labs, proves the existence of dark, that dark has
mass heavier than that of light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark.
Take for example the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is
less dark right next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the
dark sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a
parking lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room.

As with all things, dark suckers don't last forever. Once they are full
of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the black spot on a
full dark sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that
after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark
which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of
an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the path
of the dark flowing into the candle. Unfortunately, these primitive dark
suckers have a very limited range.

There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in these can't handle
all of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit.
When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or
replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this
mass generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark
sucker. Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in
the solid wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount
of heat. Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you
notice it gets darker and darker. When you reach a depth of
approximately fifty feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the
heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the ligher light floats
to the top.

The immense power of dark can be utilized to a man's advantage. We can
collect the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it
through turbines, which generates electricity and helps push it to the
ocean where it may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much more
difficult to get dark from rivers and lakes to the ocean. The Indians
recognized this problem and tried to solve it. When on a river in a
canoe traveling in the same direction as the flow of dark, they paddled
slowly, so as not to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled
against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly so as to help push the
dark along its way.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you stand in
an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open
the door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet, but since the
dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet.

In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives
much easier. So the next time you look at an electric light bulb,
remember that it is indeed a dark sucker.

Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652

Spalted Walt wrote:
Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652

But all my shop lights are 8 footers. Do they make 8' LEDs? I just
used my last spare.

--
GW Ross

On 7/31/2017 7:27 PM, G Ross wrote:
Spalted Walt wrote:
Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652


But all my shop lights are 8 footers. Do they make 8' LEDs? I just used
my last spare.


Yes.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:12:41 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.

I would recommend that when you replace one tube in a fixture, you
replace all the others, as well. Also, clean the fixture.

wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:12:41 -0400, Keith Nuttle
wrote:

I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.
I would recommend that when you replace one tube in a fixture, you
replace all the others, as well.
Also, clean the fixture.


Be sure to use a light rag or towel.

G Ross wrote:

Spalted Walt wrote:
Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652

But all my shop lights are 8 footers. Do they make 8' LEDs? I just
used my last spare.

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

Bill wrote in
news
wrote:
Also, clean the fixture.


Be sure to use a light rag or towel.


Subtle. I like it!

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 10:57:46 PM UTC-5, Spalted Walt wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

I wouldn't buy a bulb from ebay, but those other prices are pretty good. I am on a maintenance schedule with a warehouse and I replace their florescent bulbs with LEDs now.

The way we do it, we use the same fixtures as the florescent bulbs. We disconnect the ballast, and direct wire the fixture bulb ends. We buy a new end connector to replace the florescent style ends ($2 ea.)that pops in after you remove the old end. My electrician can do a complete retrofit of a 4', 4 bulb fixture in about 20 minutes.

That being said, there are direct replacement/retrofit LED bulbs available for many fixtures these days that could keep you from having to have an electrician. Plus, there are many good videos and websites out there that show many options and methods to upgrade to LED.

I am getting more and more interest in that technology due to its long lasting bulb technology. In the warehouse, the savings of time/men/material is obvious. But in a client's home, earlier this year we took out all the florescent fixtures because he is an older gentleman and doesn't want him or his wife getting up to a 10' ceiling anymore, or take the chance of breaking a bulb in his face when trying to install it. Smart guy!

My only thoughts here would be to check your local lighting supply before you buy. I have had terrible luck with HD's model of LED which is a Phillips bulb. Some bulbs I bought from Lowe's were fine, but they quit carrying them. So I go to the local LightBulb Depot and purchase there. They have been in business for a long time, and have their own house brand that has a replacement warranty of 5 years. You take it to them, they hand you a new one. And at least locally, they have good prices and they deliver free of charge for orders over $65. Had to use the warranty once, and they gave me no static.

I don't want to ship a bad bulb purchased at HD to the Phillips assessment location and have them issue a store credit, then go back to the store to buy a bulb, etc. When I had a couple of Phillips bulbs go bad in 6 months after installation and Phillips told me that I had to ship them bulbs to them for inspection I haven't put a Phillips product in since.

Robert

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 11:57:46 PM UTC-4, Spalted Walt wrote:
G Ross wrote:

Spalted Walt wrote:
Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652

But all my shop lights are 8 footers. Do they make 8' LEDs? I just
used my last spare.

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced. I've run across a few sites that include single pin
tombstones with their single pin LED's.

Buyers need to read the specs. If they don't come with tombstones, they will need
to be purchased separately.

Meanie writes:
On 7/31/2017 7:27 PM, G Ross wrote:
Spalted Walt wrote:
Meanie wrote:

snip

In high bay areas, we often do a complete relamping when the % of lamp
failure is 20 or more of the total quantity. This partakes several years
apart. But now going to LEDs, we're hoping that problem partakes much
longer with a total LED relamping.

+1

At $5 ea. for 4' LED plug & play, it makes no sense to keep
replacing fluorescents with same.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-3...9486/301154652


But all my shop lights are 8 footers. Do they make 8' LEDs? I just used
my last spare.


Yes.

But not for $5 ea. Or even $50 ea.

On 7/31/2017 11:53 PM, wrote:
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 10:57:46 PM UTC-5, Spalted Walt wrote:


I don't want to ship a bad bulb purchased at HD to the Phillips assessment location and have them issue a store credit, then go back to the store to buy a bulb, etc. When I had a couple of Phillips bulbs go bad in 6 months after installation and Phillips told me that I had to ship them bulbs to them for inspection I haven't put a Phillips product in since.

Robert


FWIW, the Home Depot brand bulbs have been replaced for me on a couple
of occasions. They never wanted them back, they simply shipped me a new
one.

On 7/31/2017 8:42 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 14:12:41 -0400, Keith Nuttle
Snip


I would recommend that when you replace one tube in a fixture, you
replace all the others, as well. Also, clean the fixture.



LOL I have found that cleaning the friggin bulb helps dramatically with
the decision to replace or not. It is shocking how much brighter the
shop gets when I remove the dust from the bulbs.

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 11:53:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:

That being said, there are direct replacement/retrofit LED bulbs available for many fixtures these days that could keep you from having to have an electrician. Plus, there are many good videos and websites out there that show many options and methods to upgrade to LED.

I recently retrofitted Mom's kitchen sink 2' T-12 bulbs to LEDS. It was easy, if you have a little electrical savvy. The worst part of this job was the awkward positioning of myself, half on the ladder, half on the cabinet and reaching up under the upper cabinet crown area.

I was unaware of how to retrofit, as I had planned to get a replacement ballast, but the salesman, at the dedicated electrical supply outlet, advised otherwise and described the retrofit procedure, thoroughly. Besides, Mom's fixture was so old, the ballast for that fixture wasn't available, anymore.

Sonny

On 8/1/2017 9:27 AM, Sonny wrote:
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 11:53:56 PM UTC-5, wrote:

That being said, there are direct replacement/retrofit LED bulbs available for many fixtures these days that could keep you from having to have an electrician. Plus, there are many good videos and websites out there that show many options and methods to upgrade to LED.

I recently retrofitted Mom's kitchen sink 2' T-12 bulbs to LEDS. It was easy, if you have a little electrical savvy. The worst part of this job was the awkward positioning of myself, half on the ladder, half on the cabinet and reaching up under the upper cabinet crown area.

I was unaware of how to retrofit, as I had planned to get a replacement ballast, but the salesman, at the dedicated electrical supply outlet, advised otherwise and described the retrofit procedure, thoroughly. Besides, Mom's fixture was so old, the ballast for that fixture wasn't available, anymore.

Sonny

This has me interested. Since the lamps are at the end of an 8' ladder,
I don't know if they are worth 2.5 times the price of a standard
fluorescent light.

http://www.usa.lighting.philips.com/...hts/instantfit

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-4...-301373115-_-N

--
2017: The year we lean to play the great game of Euchre

This is old news and they are called Dark Absorbers.

Just Wondering was heard to mutter:

On 7/31/2017 3:53 PM, whit3rd wrote:
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 12:59:50 PM UTC-7, Leon wrote:

I was once told be a lighting salesman that the failing tubes can cause
a ballast to go bad. Cheaper to replace all tubes, maybe.

Replacing all tubes, if it's at all difficult to reach the fixture, is certainly
a good idea (won't save much money trying to get the last ten percent
of life out of a tube that's turning dark). The 'cause a ballast to go bad'
is probably obsolete, the old iron ballasts would sometimes overheat when
a tube went out.

The reason, is that the tube going out could result in accidental rectification of
the current (and magnetize/saturate/overheat the ballast).

New (electronic) ballasts don't do that.

BELL LAB PROVES EXISTENCE OF DARK SUCKERS!
For years it has been believed that electric bulbs emitted light.
However, recent information from Bell Labs has proven otherwise.
Electric bulbs don't emit light; they suck dark. Thus they now call
these bulbs dark suckers. The dark sucker theory, according to a
spokesman from the Labs, proves the existence of dark, that dark has
mass heavier than that of light, and that dark is faster than light.

The basis of the dark sucker theory is that electric bulbs suck dark.
Take for example the dark suckers in the room where you are. There is
less dark right next to them than there is elsewhere. The larger the
dark sucker, the greater its capacity to suck dark. Dark suckers in a
parking lot have a much greater capacity than the ones in this room.

As with all things, dark suckers don't last forever. Once they are full
of dark, they can no longer suck. This is proven by the black spot on a
full dark sucker. A new candle has a white wick. You will notice that
after the first use, the wick turns black, representing all the dark
which has been sucked into it. If you hold a pencil next to the wick of
an operating candle, the tip will turn black because it got in the path
of the dark flowing into the candle. Unfortunately, these primitive dark
suckers have a very limited range.

There are also portable dark suckers. The bulbs in these can't handle
all of the dark by themselves, and must be aided by a dark storage unit.
When the dark storage unit is full, it must be either emptied or
replaced before the portable dark sucker can operate again.

Dark has mass. When dark goes into a dark sucker, friction from this
mass generates heat. Thus it is not wise to touch an operating dark
sucker. Candles present a special problem, as the dark must travel in
the solid wick instead of through glass. This generates a great amount
of heat. Thus it can be very dangerous to touch an operating candle.

Dark is also heavier than light. If you swim deeper and deeper, you
notice it gets darker and darker. When you reach a depth of
approximately fifty feet, you are in total darkness. This is because the
heavier dark sinks to the bottom of the lake and the ligher light floats
to the top.

The immense power of dark can be utilized to a man's advantage. We can
collect the dark that has settled to the bottom of lakes and push it
through turbines, which generates electricity and helps push it to the
ocean where it may be safely stored. Prior to turbines, it was much more
difficult to get dark from rivers and lakes to the ocean. The Indians
recognized this problem and tried to solve it. When on a river in a
canoe traveling in the same direction as the flow of dark, they paddled
slowly, so as not to stop the flow of dark, but when they traveled
against the flow of dark, they paddled quickly so as to help push the
dark along its way.

Finally, we must prove that dark is faster than light. If you stand in
an illuminated room in front of a closed, dark closet, then slowly open
the door, you would see the light slowly enter the closet, but since the
dark is so fast, you would not be able to see the dark leave the closet.

In conclusion, Bell Labs stated that dark suckers make all our lives
much easier. So the next time you look at an electric light bulb,
remember that it is indeed a dark sucker.

---
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DerbyDad03 wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced.

Wrong!
They are *EIGHT FOOT* - single pin is the norm.

Buyers need to read the specs. If they don't come with tombstones, they will need
to be purchased separately.

Those with T8/T5 *instant start ballasts* (shunted tombstones)
will need to be replaced *IF* they go the direct wire method.

https://insights.regencylighting.com...-what-you-need

Spalted Walt writes:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced.

Wrong!
They are *EIGHT FOOT* - single pin is the norm.

However, note that those at 1000bulbs are F96T8 compatible. It's not clear that
they'll work with a standard F96T12 ballast. The compatible ballast
list is short (9 entries).


The greenlightdepot does claim most fixtures (they bypass the
ballast and thus require rewiring) and offers a 5000k color
temperature - I just had an F96T12C50 fail, perhaps I'll try a pair of
these and see how they look.

(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

Spalted Walt writes:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced.

Wrong!
They are *EIGHT FOOT* - single pin is the norm.

However, note that those at 1000bulbs are F96T8 compatible. It's not clear that
they'll work with a standard F96T12 ballast. The compatible ballast
list is short (9 entries).

If the "standard F96T12 ballast" is the old (heavy) magnetic style,
I'd say no, plug & play will not work.
Only the more modern T8 'instant start' ballasts. I don't know if any
of the T12 magnetic-to-electronic ballast retrofits would work or
not.

more choices from 1000bulbs:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-direct-wire/
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/


The greenlightdepot does claim most fixtures (they bypass the
ballast and thus require rewiring) and offers a 5000k color
temperature - I just had an F96T12C50 fail, perhaps I'll try a pair of
these and see how they look.

On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:53:51 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 10:57:46 PM UTC-5, Spalted Walt wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

I wouldn't buy a bulb from ebay, but those other prices are pretty good. I am on a maintenance schedule with a warehouse and I replace their florescent bulbs with LEDs now.

The way we do it, we use the same fixtures as the florescent bulbs. We disconnect the ballast, and direct wire the fixture bulb ends. We buy a new end connector to replace the florescent style ends ($2 ea.)that pops in after you remove the old end. My electrician can do a complete retrofit of a 4', 4 bulb fixture in about 20 minutes.

That being said, there are direct replacement/retrofit LED bulbs available for many fixtures these days that could keep you from having to have an electrician. Plus, there are many good videos and websites out there that show many options and methods to upgrade to LED.

I am getting more and more interest in that technology due to its long lasting bulb technology. In the warehouse, the savings of time/men/material is obvious. But in a client's home, earlier this year we took out all the florescent fixtures because he is an older gentleman and doesn't want him or his wife getting up to a 10' ceiling anymore, or take the chance of breaking a bulb in his face when trying to install it. Smart guy!

My only thoughts here would be to check your local lighting supply before you buy. I have had terrible luck with HD's model of LED which is a Phillips bulb. Some bulbs I bought from Lowe's were fine, but they quit carrying them. So I go to the local LightBulb Depot and purchase there. They have been in business for a long time, and have their own house brand that has a replacement warranty of 5 years. You take it to them, they hand you a new one. And at least locally, they have good prices and they deliver free of charge for orders over $65. Had to use the warranty once, and they gave me no static.

I don't want to ship a bad bulb purchased at HD to the Phillips assessment location and have them issue a store credit, then go back to the store to buy a bulb, etc. When I had a couple of Phillips bulbs go bad in 6 months after installation and Phillips told me that I had to ship them bulbs to them for inspection I haven't put a Phillips product in since.

Robert
Here in Canada COSCO carried the "direct fit" or "plug'n'play" LRDs
at $18 and change (canadian) PER PAIR. US pricing is generally 20%
lower in American greenbacks

On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 16:09:37 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

Spalted Walt writes:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced.

Wrong!
They are *EIGHT FOOT* - single pin is the norm.

However, note that those at 1000bulbs are F96T8 compatible. It's not clear that
they'll work with a standard F96T12 ballast. The compatible ballast
list is short (9 entries).

If the "standard F96T12 ballast" is the old (heavy) magnetic style,
I'd say no, plug & play will not work.
Only the more modern T8 'instant start' ballasts. I don't know if any
of the T12 magnetic-to-electronic ballast retrofits would work or
not.

more choices from 1000bulbs:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-direct-wire/
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/


The greenlightdepot does claim most fixtures (they bypass the
ballast and thus require rewiring) and offers a 5000k color
temperature - I just had an F96T12C50 fail, perhaps I'll try a pair of
these and see how they look.
The 4 foot plug and plays I have installed are on a combination of
magnetic and electronic ballasts - and both work just fine.

wrote:

On Tue, 01 Aug 2017 16:09:37 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

Spalted Walt writes:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

All 3 of those bulbs have single pin ends. The tombstones on the existing T8/T12
fixtures will need to be replaced.

Wrong!
They are *EIGHT FOOT* - single pin is the norm.

However, note that those at 1000bulbs are F96T8 compatible. It's not clear that
they'll work with a standard F96T12 ballast. The compatible ballast
list is short (9 entries).

If the "standard F96T12 ballast" is the old (heavy) magnetic style,
I'd say no, plug & play will not work.
Only the more modern T8 'instant start' ballasts. I don't know if any
of the T12 magnetic-to-electronic ballast retrofits would work or
not.

more choices from 1000bulbs:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-direct-wire/
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/


The greenlightdepot does claim most fixtures (they bypass the
ballast and thus require rewiring) and offers a 5000k color
temperature - I just had an F96T12C50 fail, perhaps I'll try a pair of
these and see how they look.
The 4 foot plug and plays I have installed are on a combination of
magnetic and electronic ballasts - and both work just fine.

Yes, Feit Electric is the only company I'm aware of that offers a
truly universal plug & play (including magnetic ballasts).
I didn't include the Feit because for the 8ft it's still VERY pricey

$60 ea
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Feit-Elec...D-RP/206036837

On Tuesday, August 1, 2017 at 8:16:52 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I don't want to ship a bad bulb purchased at HD to the Phillips assessment location and have them issue a store credit, then go back to the store to buy a bulb, etc. When I had a couple of Phillips bulbs go bad in 6 months after installation and Phillips told me that I had to ship them bulbs to them for inspection I haven't put a Phillips product in since.

Robert


FWIW, the Home Depot brand bulbs have been replaced for me on a couple
of occasions. They never wanted them back, they simply shipped me a new
one.

I believe you. But as a contractor, cost me money once with no effort to work out a good solution, and I am finished with you.

Phillips bulbs from HD has joined Olympic paints, GAF shingles (screwed one of my clients very badly), Thompson's Water Seal and a couple of others that I won't use again.

Robert

writes:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 21:53:51 -0700 (PDT), "

Here in Canada COSCO carried the "direct fit" or "plug'n'play" LRDs
at $18 and change (canadian) PER PAIR. US pricing is generally 20%
lower in American greenbacks

COSCO (China Overseas Shipping Company) is a shipping firm.

CostCo is the warehouse retailer.

On 7/31/2017 3:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"G Ross" wrote in message news
Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

***************

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two
tubes. When I notice one acting flakey I just replace both of them.
Some of my 8 footers are 10 years old, and I have yet to replace a
ballast. All of the cans are ten years old.

When I was a kid one of my chores was replacing the tubes in the 4' cans
above the drop ceiling in our family grocery store. I also had to
replace a number of ballasts over the years. One day I asked my dad if
he thought the bulbs being bad were affecting the ballasts. He made a
couple phone calls and said lets try just replacing all the bulbs on a
can the instant one starts acting up and see. I replaced one or two
ballasts over the next year, and then not another one until the day I
left home.

I don't know how many ballasts my dad replaced after I left home, but...

A few years ago my dad stated with authority that if a tube starts
acting you should just replace all the tubes on the can as your ballasts
will last longer if you do. I'm not sure if he remembers our
conversation from over 35 years ago, but I do.

I've never heard or read an "authority" state that to be the case, but I
pretty much believe it. Given what a ballast costs I think its cheaper
to just replace all the tubes the instant one tube starts to flicker or
act flakey. For somebody who might need to hire an electrician the cost
of a bad ballast is much more.



Don't use Phillips bulbs!!! POS.
I just replaced a sylvania that was years, old, and a phillips that was
months old. They were in troffers in the basement, 2 adjacent troffers.

I've got to find Sylvnia, or GE bulbs. I won't do another case of
Phillips. All the crappy Phillips died in months, I had 2 cases fail in
a relatively short time. A total waste of money.


--
Jeff

On 8/1/2017 12:53 AM, wrote:
On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 10:57:46 PM UTC-5, Spalted Walt wrote:

$11 ea. w/free shipping / direct wire
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25PC-8FT-45W...-/192168789540

$16.95 ea. w/free shipping on orders $99 / direct wire
https://greenlightdepot.com/collecti...ed-linear-tube

$22 ea. + shipping / plug-n-play
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/8...s-plug-n-play/

I wouldn't buy a bulb from ebay, but those other prices are pretty good. I am on a maintenance schedule with a warehouse and I replace their florescent bulbs with LEDs now.

The way we do it, we use the same fixtures as the florescent bulbs. We disconnect the ballast, and direct wire the fixture bulb ends. We buy a new end connector to replace the florescent style ends ($2 ea.)that pops in after you remove the old end. My electrician can do a complete retrofit of a 4', 4 bulb fixture in about 20 minutes.

That being said, there are direct replacement/retrofit LED bulbs available for many fixtures these days that could keep you from having to have an electrician. Plus, there are many good videos and websites out there that show many options and methods to upgrade to LED.

I am getting more and more interest in that technology due to its long lasting bulb technology. In the warehouse, the savings of time/men/material is obvious. But in a client's home, earlier this year we took out all the florescent fixtures because he is an older gentleman and doesn't want him or his wife getting up to a 10' ceiling anymore, or take the chance of breaking a bulb in his face when trying to install it. Smart guy!

My only thoughts here would be to check your local lighting supply before you buy. I have had terrible luck with HD's model of LED which is a Phillips bulb. Some bulbs I bought from Lowe's were fine, but they quit carrying them. So I go to the local LightBulb Depot and purchase there. They have been in business for a long time, and have their own house brand that has a replacement warranty of 5 years. You take it to them, they hand you a new one. And at least locally, they have good prices and they deliver free of charge for orders over $65. Had to use the warranty once, and they gave me no static.

I don't want to ship a bad bulb purchased at HD to the Phillips assessment location and have them issue a store credit, then go back to the store to buy a bulb, etc. When I had a couple of Phillips bulbs go bad in 6 months after installation and Phillips told me that I had to ship them bulbs to them for inspection I haven't put a Phillips product in since.

Robert

I won't buy a phillips bulb anymore. They don't last.


--
Jeff

On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 15:11:46 -0400, woodchucker
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 3:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"G Ross" wrote in message news
Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

***************

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two
tubes. When I notice one acting flakey I just replace both of them.
Some of my 8 footers are 10 years old, and I have yet to replace a
ballast. All of the cans are ten years old.

When I was a kid one of my chores was replacing the tubes in the 4' cans
above the drop ceiling in our family grocery store. I also had to
replace a number of ballasts over the years. One day I asked my dad if
he thought the bulbs being bad were affecting the ballasts. He made a
couple phone calls and said lets try just replacing all the bulbs on a
can the instant one starts acting up and see. I replaced one or two
ballasts over the next year, and then not another one until the day I
left home.

I don't know how many ballasts my dad replaced after I left home, but...

A few years ago my dad stated with authority that if a tube starts
acting you should just replace all the tubes on the can as your ballasts
will last longer if you do. I'm not sure if he remembers our
conversation from over 35 years ago, but I do.

I've never heard or read an "authority" state that to be the case, but I
pretty much believe it. Given what a ballast costs I think its cheaper
to just replace all the tubes the instant one tube starts to flicker or
act flakey. For somebody who might need to hire an electrician the cost
of a bad ballast is much more.



Don't use Phillips bulbs!!! POS.
I just replaced a sylvania that was years, old, and a phillips that was
months old. They were in troffers in the basement, 2 adjacent troffers.

I've got to find Sylvnia, or GE bulbs. I won't do another case of
Phillips. All the crappy Phillips died in months, I had 2 cases fail in
a relatively short time. A total waste of money.
All the current production stuff seams to be crap.

On 8/1/2017 4:50 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 1 Aug 2017 15:11:46 -0400, woodchucker
wrote:

On 7/31/2017 3:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
"G Ross" wrote in message news
Keith Nuttle wrote:
I am posting this to the woodworking group because wood workers know a
lot about everything. ;-)

I am a volunteer at church and one of things that I do is change the
florescent lights when they die. Most of the fixtures are four tube
fixtures.

Is there a test to tell if a Florescent light tube is bad and needs to
be replaced, or the light is not working because its companion is dead?

I have struggled with this. Sometimes when one of the tubes is replaced
the other seems to start working. So it would be nice to test the tube
to see if even though working it should be replaced.


In the hospital where I used to work, if a bulb in a fixture went out
they replaced all 4 bulbs. Since they always did that, when one went
out all the others were the same age and likely to go before long.
Apparently this practice was cost effective for them. But then, their
maintenance crew was being paid.

I always replace just the bad one. In fact, did that today.

***************

I have a bunch of 8' cans hanging from chains in my shop. They hold two
tubes. When I notice one acting flakey I just replace both of them.
Some of my 8 footers are 10 years old, and I have yet to replace a
ballast. All of the cans are ten years old.

When I was a kid one of my chores was replacing the tubes in the 4' cans
above the drop ceiling in our family grocery store. I also had to
replace a number of ballasts over the years. One day I asked my dad if
he thought the bulbs being bad were affecting the ballasts. He made a
couple phone calls and said lets try just replacing all the bulbs on a
can the instant one starts acting up and see. I replaced one or two
ballasts over the next year, and then not another one until the day I
left home.

I don't know how many ballasts my dad replaced after I left home, but...

A few years ago my dad stated with authority that if a tube starts
acting you should just replace all the tubes on the can as your ballasts
will last longer if you do. I'm not sure if he remembers our
conversation from over 35 years ago, but I do.

I've never heard or read an "authority" state that to be the case, but I
pretty much believe it. Given what a ballast costs I think its cheaper
to just replace all the tubes the instant one tube starts to flicker or
act flakey. For somebody who might need to hire an electrician the cost
of a bad ballast is much more.



Don't use Phillips bulbs!!! POS.
I just replaced a sylvania that was years, old, and a phillips that was
months old. They were in troffers in the basement, 2 adjacent troffers.

I've got to find Sylvnia, or GE bulbs. I won't do another case of
Phillips. All the crappy Phillips died in months, I had 2 cases fail in
a relatively short time. A total waste of money.
All the current production stuff seams to be crap.

Agreed, at least the ones you find at the big boxes.