Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?

On 7/16/2017 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?


3

I read TFCT as the construction style not the construction tools that
are used.

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?


Whatever you say, sellers will always say it was made "by hand". : )

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 9:43:48 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?

To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.

This is "real" TFCT (get ready for your dose of humility - at least it is for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd4Juc4fYjw

Dr. Deb wrote:

To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.


I watched the video and heard the term "engineering".

On 2017-07-16, Bill wrote:

Whatever you say, sellers will always say it was made "by hand". : )

I love it when some "artisan" distiller claims their spirit (in this
case, vodka) is "hand made". ....as if!

nb

On 7/16/2017 2:58 PM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 9:43:48 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?

To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.

This is "real" TFCT (get ready for your dose of humility - at least it is for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd4Juc4fYjw



Pretty good but he did use a bench top mortiser and a band saw. He used
hand planes but sometimes I sand by hand. ;~)

On Sun, 16 Jul 2017 15:28:50 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/16/2017 2:58 PM, Dr. Deb wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 9:43:48 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?

To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.

This is "real" TFCT (get ready for your dose of humility - at least it is for me)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hd4Juc4fYjw



Pretty good but he did use a bench top mortiser and a band saw. He used
hand planes but sometimes I sand by hand. ;~)

Yeah, I thought the Festool hand sander was pretty funny. ;-)

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2017 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?


3

I read TFCT as the construction style not the construction tools that
are used.

So you don't include the making of the parts as "construction", just the
assembly?

OK, I'll give you that. Do you consider the use of the power stapler as TFCT?

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 4:20:01 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
Dr. Deb wrote:

To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.


I watched the video and heard the term "engineering".

When?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 4:20:01 PM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
Dr. Deb wrote:
To be honest, I can see nothing of traditional craftsmanship in the video. While they do use mortise and tenons, all that you really wind up with is a factory built chair.

I watched the video and heard the term "engineering".
When?

I guess it was only my brain that heard it--when they said
"manufactured" (near the beginning).

Bill

Hmmm!? Traditional craftsman - one who uses what tools and skills he has to do the best job he can do.... on the particular project.

To me, traditional means putting one's heart and soul into one's work. It's the person's work. Production (mass production), to me, lacks that personal effort, pride, etc., to show a particular person's work, hence lacks "tradition" (historical sense?) of any kind.

And, if I can include, I like to think some of my old salvaged wood has the character and history that lends itself to my idea of "traditional sense and work". I kinna give it a human quality, in that, it has survived this long, intact, so it needs to be respected by becoming a good/better/best (different?) project.... and I try to make it so.

Traditional technique is a person's personal effort, not the result of the tools used, whether new or old tools. And I'm speaking of good quality work....

**** poor sloppy work can be traditional for some folks, like for one or two of my nephews, despite my efforts to try to coach them otherwise.

Sonny

On 7/16/2017 4:26 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2017-07-16, Bill wrote:

Whatever you say, sellers will always say it was made "by hand". : )

I love it when some "artisan" distiller claims their spirit (in this
case, vodka) is "hand made". ....as if!

nb


And, don't forget, 'gluten-free' as if gluten could find its way into what
is basically ethanol and water.

On 7/17/2017 10:56 AM, John McGaw wrote:
On 7/16/2017 4:26 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2017-07-16, Bill wrote:

Whatever you say, sellers will always say it was made "by hand". : )

I love it when some "artisan" distiller claims their spirit (in this
case, vodka) is "hand made". ....as if!

nb


And, don't forget, 'gluten-free' as if gluten could find its way into
what is basically ethanol and water.


Handmade is when you squeeze the wheat the right way so the vodka comes
out but the gluten stays. Takes years to learn the craft.

From what I've found, hand made is a rather nebulous term. I guess if
you weigh out the ingredients by scooping you qualify as hand made.

This post was hand crafted by an artisan typist.

On 7/16/2017 4:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 2:20:09 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/16/2017 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...

I was watching this episode of How It's Made this morning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-18nLL-z9v4

They open the segment with the words "use ... traditional furniture construction
techniques." Let's call them TFCT.

We can all agree that mortise and tenon joinery is a TFCT.
We can all agree that steam bending is a TFCT.

Let's consider "mortise and tenon" techniques. We've moved from chisels to
foot operator mortisers to computer controlled mortisers as shown in the
video. Is creating mortises and tenons with the assistance of a computer
still considered a TFCT?

Let's consider "steam bending" techniques. We've moved from home made jigs,
manual clamps and multiple days of dry time to devices that use radio
frequencies to dry thick pieces of wood to a precise moisture content in
1 hour.

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? Do we simply say "The
fact that the chair was constructed with mortise and tenon joinery and
steam bent parts means that TFCT were used" or do we say "Improvements, efficiencies and high tech devices have removed the use of TFCT from
this chair build"?


3

I read TFCT as the construction style not the construction tools that
are used.

So you don't include the making of the parts as "construction", just the
assembly?

OK, I'll give you that. Do you consider the use of the power stapler as TFCT?

;~)

If the set of plans instruct to build using traditional style of
construction, that to me is traditional. How you accomplish this is not
IMHO a consideration unless you indicate traditional tools.

And what is a traditional tool? That would be open for discussion
depending if you are considering tools that are/were used at a
particular point in time. 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 3 weeks ago. ;~)

If you didn't whittle it out of a tree with your bush knife, hand carve all
the pegs with the same knife, and hammer it together with the spine of your
bush knife then ITS NOT FREAKING TRADITIONALLY MADE.

LOL

On 07/16/2017 9:43 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Just something that will hopefully spark a friendly discussion...
....

The question is: When have we left TFCT behind? ...

"Traditional" comes from about the 18th century or somewhat earlier.

If they would have had access to the tools and power sources we have,
you think they wouldn't have jumped to them in a heartbeat?

In that case, we'd then have a wholly different definition of what it
means to be traditional.

--

On Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 9:20:27 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

"Traditional" comes from about the 18th century or somewhat earlier.

If they would have had access to the tools and power sources we have,
you think they wouldn't have jumped to them in a heartbeat?

In that case, we'd then have a wholly different definition of what it
means to be traditional.

Absolutely. This is some well chewed sausage among my fellow woodworkers and has been for decades. When I started in the trades full time over 40 years ago I had to learn how to drive nails all day long, from 3d when I was installing paneling and trims to 16d duplex for concrete forms. Now I have guys in their 40s that work for me that think it is "old school" to drill a pilot hole for a nail and drive the nail in a small trim job rather than to get the compressor out, hook it up, get out the air hose, oil the gun, then make sure they have the right sized brads. Not to mention carrying compressor, etc., out the job.

We used to drive screws with "Yankee" drivers, too. Then in the mid 70s when we started doing metal framing, we used heavy duty variable speed drills.. Now the norm for driving screws into wood has taken another step, and cheap impact drivers are a must.

Same thing with building a "one off" cabinet. I have "professional" woodworkers that I would put their end product up against just about anyone that cannot build a cabinet without a table saw of some sort. They think I have some kind of specialized Jedi training to be able to build cabinets with a circular saw, miter saw, and a router. You should see their faces when I tell them there was such a thing as a non powered miter saw.

Technology will always move the professional woodworking along. The old folks like me will **** and moan about the loss of certain skills and how talentless the help we have to hire is these days. But OTOH, now a helper can screw off a deck surface, a guy with a few hours of experience can nail off house roof decking (it took me more than six months to be able to drive nails all day)using a few thousand nails a day. So the payoff is faster, more affordable work with a less interested or well trained staff.

Take a look at some of the superb work we have seen here. I have had the pleasure of becoming a friend of Leon's, and his work is even more impressive in person than it is in pictures. Yet, how much of that incredible joinery could he do in a timely manner without the machines to do it? What if he had to stop and correctly sharpen a rabbet plane three or four times during the build process? What if he was trying to mimic the Domino with through mortises by using a hammer/drill/chisel for every single connector? What about the time, effort and expertise needed to make some of the joinery we see on a raised panel door, and imagine that being done with a SERIES of planes and devices.

The payoff? As a professional, Leon has invested the time, money and dedication to learn to use the best technology to its best use. When I was building cabinets (yes, back in the 70s when I was building kitchens full of cabs I had a table saw) it took us about twice as long to get the job done as it would Leon, and we did have some component failures that required a "re-do" if the end product wasn't up to snuff. It used to take us (my partner of equal skills) about a month to build kitchen/bath/utility cabinets for a house. Now, someone like Leon can turn out a consistently better product by himself in about half the time.

Technology brings speed, repeatability, and less chance for failure over relying on hand/eye skills that take years to develop.

Over the last couple of decades or so, I have noticed that the only ones that miss the "old ways" are the ones that have never relied on their efforts to pay their mortgages, truck payments, medical bills, etc.

With that in mind, I think there are "old ways" of doing things, not necessarily better just because it was the way your great grandfather did it. The definition of tradition itself doesn't apply to woodworking since it is a craft that evolves, rather than staying stuck in the mire caused by lack of innovation.

Robert

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news
If you didn't whittle it out of a tree with your bush knife, hand carve all
the pegs with the same knife, and hammer it together with the spine of your
bush knife then ITS NOT FREAKING TRADITIONALLY MADE.

LOL

*********
Its been pointed out to me that no traditional wood furniture would be
complete with out a woven leather seat. Of course before you can chew the
leather to soften it you must first dry and cure it with traditional
intestinal flora curing methods after chasing it down on foot and bashing it
in the skull with the femur of an antelope.

On 07/19/2017 12:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
....

Its been pointed out to me that no traditional wood furniture would be
complete with out a woven leather seat. Of course before you can chew
the leather to soften it you must first dry and cure it with traditional
intestinal flora curing methods after chasing it down on foot and
bashing it in the skull with the femur of an antelope.

And it's getting that _first_ femur that's the real trick...

--

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:10:35 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 07/19/2017 12:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
...

Its been pointed out to me that no traditional wood furniture would be
complete with out a woven leather seat. Of course before you can chew
the leather to soften it you must first dry and cure it with traditional
intestinal flora curing methods after chasing it down on foot and
bashing it in the skull with the femur of an antelope.

And it's getting that _first_ femur that's the real trick...

Well were are back to traditional wood working you need to make an
atlatl to get that first femur.

"Markem" wrote in message
...

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 13:10:35 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 07/19/2017 12:56 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
...

Its been pointed out to me that no traditional wood furniture would be
complete with out a woven leather seat. Of course before you can chew
the leather to soften it you must first dry and cure it with traditional
intestinal flora curing methods after chasing it down on foot and
bashing it in the skull with the femur of an antelope.

And it's getting that _first_ femur that's the real trick...

Well were are back to traditional wood working you need to make an
atlatl to get that first femur.

********

No sir. No new fangled tools allowed.

haha no machinery involved what so ever!