https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/

On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 14:45:12 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:


https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/

Oh, crap! Now I'm going to have to sell all my Festools! ;-)

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider
buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.

On 7/8/2017 12:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider
buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.



Feeling emotional today?

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/8/2017 12:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider
buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.



Feeling emotional today?

Grow up.

On 7/8/2017 8:31 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/8/2017 12:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider
buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.



Feeling emotional today?

Grow up.


If you make your decisions based on emotion, maybe you should grow up.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/8/2017 8:31 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/8/2017 12:32 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/5/2017 9:45 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:

https://www.protoolreviews.com/news/...sawstop/31523/


Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology. IIRC the current Festool jigsaw was delayed
because of a feature that was not right for the American consumer.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Once the Germans get sick of Gass and give him the sack I might consider
buying one. But not until Gass is out of the company.



Feeling emotional today?

Grow up.


If you make your decisions based on emotion, maybe you should grow up.

Interesting that you found it appropriate to change the conversation from
Sawstop to me. Do you have a crush on me or something?

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments. With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology until they no longer can.

We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of products.

Robert

In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.

We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of products.

Robert

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also..

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass,
never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I
don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements,
but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it.
While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours
and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas
and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar
company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology
as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass
is part of the company?


Some will always make decisions based on non pertinent emotions. It's the
only way they know how to choose.

The cost to offer a feature on a product is inconsequential if your
customer is willing to pay for it. Proven time and again with the success
of each new line of saws that SS has introduced.

Given SS's success and dominance, in a relative short amount of time, and
the obvious disappearance of some brands and their respective models in
woodworking businesses, I would say that not paying for the licenses and
offering their customers a choice to to buy this safety technology was far
more costly than the license.

Before SS I recall being able to touch and feel, at local stores, the
larger DeWalt hybrid TS's, Hitachi contractor saws, Powermatic contractor
saws, Delta Unisaws and contractor saws, ShopSmith multifunction machines,
Steel City table saws. Today in the our country's 4th largest city/metro
area your obvious choices have shrunk to SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet if
you want to touch and feel a non bench top sized TS.


In the past 15 or so years, with the introduction of each new model/class
of TS, those brands/models listed above have one by one disappeared from
local retailers floors.

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?

-BR

In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I would
consider such a tool.

Understand, my problem with Gass is that he has been seeking a government-
imposed non-regulated monopoly. This is just plain not acceptable.

In article 968229027.521296539.111193.lcb11211-
, says...

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass,
never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I
don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements,
but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it.
While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours
and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas
and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar
company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology
as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass
is part of the company?


Some will always make decisions based on non pertinent emotions. It's the
only way they know how to choose.

The cost to offer a feature on a product is inconsequential if your
customer is willing to pay for it. Proven time and again with the success
of each new line of saws that SS has introduced.

Given SS's success and dominance, in a relative short amount of time, and
the obvious disappearance of some brands and their respective models in
woodworking businesses, I would say that not paying for the licenses and
offering their customers a choice to to buy this safety technology was far
more costly than the license.

Before SS I recall being able to touch and feel, at local stores, the
larger DeWalt hybrid TS's, Hitachi contractor saws, Powermatic contractor
saws, Delta Unisaws and contractor saws, ShopSmith multifunction machines,
Steel City table saws. Today in the our country's 4th largest city/metro
area your obvious choices have shrunk to SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet if
you want to touch and feel a non bench top sized TS.


In the past 15 or so years, with the introduction of each new model/class
of TS, those brands/models listed above have one by one disappeared from
local retailers floors.

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

Why? The only market in which SawStop has made any inroads is table saws.
Festool does not make table saws, so they don't even try to play in that
particular market.

It is more likely that they have decided to expand their product line to
include stationary tools than it is that they thought they needed to
"remain relevant".

On 7/9/2017 9:12 AM, Brewster wrote:
On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of
SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)

LOL. It would probably be beneficial but not so much as with a TS or BS.

The design of plate joiners and the Domino make them pretty safe.
BUT the Kapex could certainly benefit.




I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?

-BR


My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

On 7/9/2017 9:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I would
consider such a tool.

Agreed that Mercedes has shared some safety technologies. BUT I
recently was doing some research on a few Mercedes models. They state
that they have hundreds of safety patents. I read that as safety
features that they are not willing to share freely. So like ANY
business there is a limit as to what they are willing to share.

On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
....

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.

I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

I was expecting that from CPSC before they actually took up Gass's
complaint, meself...as EU had already led the way.

--

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 8:22:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
..
I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop..
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

While beloved by their fans, I think some people forget that TTS is a highly successful, wholly owned company that does as they please. No stockholders, no huge investment groups, no one to answer to in order to beat the last gasp out of a dollar to get profits maximized at the cost of quality. They are a manufacturing company specializing in the innovation (did you know that one of the companies in their lineage developed the orbital sander and the track saw?), engineering and development of hand held tools.

I was surprised that no on raised an eyebrow when TTS/Festool announced a loose partnership with 3M to cash in on the ever increasing auto repair market. Festool will be developing new lines of sanders (no doubt highlighting dust collection) and metal working tools for the industry as well as new technologies for sheet metal finishing using 3M's expertise in this field.

The point being that Festool is a billion dollar company that is moving forward and there is no telling what Festool will be doing with the SS technology. They have a lot of irons in the fires, and no doubt we know of only a few. No doubt they have their eye on the future of their business, and no doubt they are going to try to maintain their reputation as quality builders of innovative machines.

Robert

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated
like a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten
the dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack
continued to spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my
right tilt saw it could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.


As I recall, and I haven't seen this discussed in years, it was spindown
time. Dado sets take longer to spin down than a normal blade, and
apparently European Regulators can't wait that long. Maybe the saw made
that whirring noise dado sets make and they need to change their pants?

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

In article , says...

On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.

I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Check again. EU regs require that the saw spin down in 10 seconds or less,
usually accomplished with a brake of some kind. Since the manufacturer
usually wants to use the cheapest brake that will do the job, they barely
put in enough brake to spin down a regular blade in that time, so put a
dado on it and it runs over. The manufacturers address this by putting a
short spindle on the saw so a dado can't be attached. One suspects that
Festool, being Festool, would just stick the brakes off a Mercedes on the
thing.

On 7/9/2017 12:28 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/9/2017 9:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology
took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology
also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know
Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive
behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual
technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as
far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda
he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the
blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new
ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion
dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop
technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most
of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the
technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly
altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.

Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows
other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty
arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that
Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The
sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I
would
consider such a tool.

Agreed that Mercedes has shared some safety technologies. BUT I
recently was doing some research on a few Mercedes models. They state
that they have hundreds of safety patents. I read that as safety
features that they are not willing to share freely. So like ANY
business there is a limit as to what they are willing to share.


I have to wonder, not that I'm cynical. . .
We have this patent, but is it not a very good one and we could lose a
court battle, so instead, lets give it away and get a lot of free
publicity as an industry leader.

In article , says...

On 7/9/2017 12:28 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/9/2017 9:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology
took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology
also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know
Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive
behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual
technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as
far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda
he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the
blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new
ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion
dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop
technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most
of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the
technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly
altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.

Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows
other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty
arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that
Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The
sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I
would
consider such a tool.

Agreed that Mercedes has shared some safety technologies. BUT I
recently was doing some research on a few Mercedes models. They state
that they have hundreds of safety patents. I read that as safety
features that they are not willing to share freely. So like ANY
business there is a limit as to what they are willing to share.


I have to wonder, not that I'm cynical. . .
We have this patent, but is it not a very good one and we could lose a
court battle, so instead, lets give it away and get a lot of free
publicity as an industry leader.

Could be, however earlier Volvo did the same with the three-point seat
belt.

On 07/09/2017 2:27 PM, Leon wrote:
....


I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.
....

All the shapers I've got are 3X or so the rpm of of TS...even the low
range on the 2-speed is 7,000 rpm. A 10" TS manufacturer's max tip
speed will limit RPM to something under 5,000 to 5,500 iirc w/o looking
up specific numbers.

Anyways, shapers run at quite a lot higher rpm than do TS's owing to the
tip diameter of cutters being smaller so need it for the tip speed.

Think routers; 20 to 27,000 ain't unusual for the same reason; the
router bit diameter is much smaller so needs to spin faster to compensate.

There's quite a lot of mass on a 1" shaper spindle w/ a 6" panel-raiser
on it...it'd take a sizeable EM to shut it down quickly enough to make
and difference on the accident scenario methinks...

--

On 7/9/2017 3:24 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:


Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated
like a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten
the dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack
continued to spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my
right tilt saw it could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.


As I recall, and I haven't seen this discussed in years, it was spindown
time. Dado sets take longer to spin down than a normal blade, and
apparently European Regulators can't wait that long. Maybe the saw made
that whirring noise dado sets make and they need to change their pants?

Puckdropper


Spin down time would not seem to be so as they do allow large massive
dado blades.

On 7/9/2017 4:43 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 2:27 PM, Leon wrote:
...


I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.
...

All the shapers I've got are 3X or so the rpm of of TS...even the low
range on the 2-speed is 7,000 rpm. A 10" TS manufacturer's max tip
speed will limit RPM to something under 5,000 to 5,500 iirc w/o looking
up specific numbers.

OH! Nevermind. I was under the impression that they ran really slow,
not just much slower than a router. Thanks for pointing that out.





Anyways, shapers run at quite a lot higher rpm than do TS's owing to the
tip diameter of cutters being smaller so need it for the tip speed.

Think routers; 20 to 27,000 ain't unusual for the same reason; the
router bit diameter is much smaller so needs to spin faster to compensate.


Yeah I remember that now, IIRC I mentioned on a post, several posts ago,
that tip speed was important on any tool/cutter. IIRC the discussion
was why you could not put a router bit in a drill press and get
satisfactory results.



There's quite a lot of mass on a 1" shaper spindle w/ a 6" panel-raiser
on it...it'd take a sizeable EM to shut it down quickly enough to make
and difference on the accident scenario methinks...

--
Totally agreed! Your lights would dim, probably. ;~)

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 01:09:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments. With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology until they no longer can.

We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of products.

My take on it is that the SawStop patents are about to run out and
Festool just picked up another good product line, probably on the
cheap (because of the above).

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.

On 7/9/2017 3:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.

I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Check again. EU regs require that the saw spin down in 10 seconds or less,
usually accomplished with a brake of some kind. Since the manufacturer
usually wants to use the cheapest brake that will do the job, they barely
put in enough brake to spin down a regular blade in that time, so put a
dado on it and it runs over. The manufacturers address this by putting a
short spindle on the saw so a dado can't be attached. One suspects that
Festool, being Festool, would just stick the brakes off a Mercedes on the
thing.


But dado's are being put on the Euro saws. LARGE massive dado's.

This German saw will cut up to 20 mm dado's. Check the specs.

https://www.stilesmachinery.com/file...-010-00028.pdf

This video shows the massive dado blades.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

Now maybe these are Americanized, but you have to think that dado's are
being cut in some way with out it being a two machine process. Most
high end Euro saws offer multiple width scoring blades to match the
width of the dado.

And maybe the dado issue is for non industrial use.

I don't doubt that there is some issue with dado blades in Europe but
the videos and specs seem to indicate that they can be cut on the Euro
built saws. And the blades are not thin.

On 7/9/2017 4:12 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/9/2017 12:28 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/9/2017 9:26 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology
took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might
have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology
also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know
Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive
behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual
technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as
far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda
he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending
the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new
ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion
dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the
SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own
products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most
of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing
plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the
technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly
altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.

Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows
other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty
arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that
Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The
sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically
controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I
would
consider such a tool.

Agreed that Mercedes has shared some safety technologies. BUT I
recently was doing some research on a few Mercedes models. They state
that they have hundreds of safety patents. I read that as safety
features that they are not willing to share freely. So like ANY
business there is a limit as to what they are willing to share.


I have to wonder, not that I'm cynical. . .
We have this patent, but is it not a very good one and we could lose a
court battle, so instead, lets give it away and get a lot of free
publicity as an industry leader.

Good Point AND if every one is using this design they cannot be blamed
for using an industry standard. Or the patent is about to run out.

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:27:56 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

That's a really neat dado blade. It's for felder (UK) saws only?

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:35:54 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 968229027.521296539.111193.lcb11211-
, says...

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass,
never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I
don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements,
but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it.
While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours
and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas
and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar
company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology
as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass
is part of the company?


Some will always make decisions based on non pertinent emotions. It's the
only way they know how to choose.

The cost to offer a feature on a product is inconsequential if your
customer is willing to pay for it. Proven time and again with the success
of each new line of saws that SS has introduced.

Given SS's success and dominance, in a relative short amount of time, and
the obvious disappearance of some brands and their respective models in
woodworking businesses, I would say that not paying for the licenses and
offering their customers a choice to to buy this safety technology was far
more costly than the license.

Before SS I recall being able to touch and feel, at local stores, the
larger DeWalt hybrid TS's, Hitachi contractor saws, Powermatic contractor
saws, Delta Unisaws and contractor saws, ShopSmith multifunction machines,
Steel City table saws. Today in the our country's 4th largest city/metro
area your obvious choices have shrunk to SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet if
you want to touch and feel a non bench top sized TS.


In the past 15 or so years, with the introduction of each new model/class
of TS, those brands/models listed above have one by one disappeared from
local retailers floors.

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

Why? The only market in which SawStop has made any inroads is table saws.
Festool does not make table saws, so they don't even try to play in that
particular market.

Until now.

It is more likely that they have decided to expand their product line to
include stationary tools than it is that they thought they needed to
"remain relevant".

Perhaps not "remain relevant", rather "grow". What further portable
(hand operated) power tools can they make that they don't now?

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 13:02:00 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 8:22:51 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
.
I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

While beloved by their fans, I think some people forget that TTS is a highly successful, wholly owned company that does as they please. No stockholders, no huge investment groups, no one to answer to in order to beat the last gasp out of a dollar to get profits maximized at the cost of quality. They are a manufacturing company specializing in the innovation (did you know that one of the companies in their lineage developed the orbital sander and the track saw?), engineering and development of hand held tools.

I was surprised that no on raised an eyebrow when TTS/Festool announced a loose partnership with 3M to cash in on the ever increasing auto repair market. Festool will be developing new lines of sanders (no doubt highlighting dust collection) and metal working tools for the industry as well as new technologies for sheet metal finishing using 3M's expertise in this field.

The point being that Festool is a billion dollar company that is moving forward and there is no telling what Festool will be doing with the SS technology. They have a lot of irons in the fires, and no doubt we know of only a few. No doubt they have their eye on the future of their business, and no doubt they are going to try to maintain their reputation as quality builders of innovative machines.

What he said. Grow or die.

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/9/2017 3:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.

I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Check again. EU regs require that the saw spin down in 10 seconds or less,
usually accomplished with a brake of some kind. Since the manufacturer
usually wants to use the cheapest brake that will do the job, they barely
put in enough brake to spin down a regular blade in that time, so put a
dado on it and it runs over. The manufacturers address this by putting a
short spindle on the saw so a dado can't be attached. One suspects that
Festool, being Festool, would just stick the brakes off a Mercedes on the
thing.


But dado's are being put on the Euro saws. LARGE massive dado's.

This German saw will cut up to 20 mm dado's. Check the specs.

Leon, nobody said that it was impossible to stop a dado in 10 seconds.
Only that it takes more than a bargain-basement brake. That saw you're
looking at costs about three times as much as a maxed-out Sawstop so has it
occurred to you that it might have just a _little_ better brake than, say,
a $500 buck Axminster?

Some quick GoogleFu reveals that the knot of patents that cover different aspects of the current SawStop device expire anywhere from 4 to 7 years, but there is even a lot of uncertainty of the actual expirations. With the Gass' interlocking his patents, no telling when the actual expiration date would be. Since I have read at other sources (than the internet!) that Gass has deliberately intertwined his patents and innovations to protect them as long as possible, no telling when the actual technology would fall into public domain.

I still think that Festool has a deeper business plan, one that will use the current technology (and anything ancillary Gass has been working on) to develop other tools and markets. If they are working on a new large wheel buffer (don't just think cars size) that has a large spinning head, wouldn't it be nice to have it cut off immediately if a shirt or glove was caught in it? How nice would it be to have a blade stop technology on a joiner?

Not thinking they have purchased the company and its technology to simply give it away to be popular with their own competition. TTS already owns a diverse set of companies that they have integrated some aspects like the Systainers built by Tanos and their high tech shop vac built by Cleantec into their catalogue. Doubtful this is a Christmas gift for all Festool's competition and us.

Probably just a smart move from a very well run company.

Robert

In article ,
says...

Some quick GoogleFu reveals that the knot of patents that cover different aspects of the current SawStop device expire anywhere from 4 to 7 years, but there is even a lot of uncertainty of the actual expirations. With the Gass' interlocking his patents, no telling when the actual expiration date would be. Since I have read at other sources (than the internet!) that Gass has deliberately intertwined his patents and innovations to protect them as long as possible, no
telling when the actual technology would fall into public domain.

I still think that Festool has a deeper business plan, one that will use the current technology (and anything ancillary Gass has been working on) to develop other tools and markets. If they are working on a new large wheel buffer (don't just think cars size) that has a large spinning head, wouldn't it be nice to have it cut off immediately if a shirt or glove was caught in it? How nice would it be to have a blade stop technology on a joiner?

But will Sawstop technology work on a buffer? And on a jointer I think it
would have to react a lot faster than it does on a table saw.

Not thinking they have purchased the company and its technology to simply give it away to be popular with their own competition. TTS already owns a diverse set of companies that they have integrated some aspects like the Systainers built by Tanos and their high tech shop vac built by Cleantec into their catalogue. Doubtful this is a Christmas gift for all Festool's competition and us.

Probably just a smart move from a very well run company.

Robert

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 18:08:20 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

Some quick GoogleFu reveals that the knot of patents that cover different aspects of the current SawStop device expire anywhere from 4 to 7 years, but there is even a lot of uncertainty of the actual expirations. With the Gass' interlocking his patents, no telling when the actual expiration date would be. Since I have read at other sources (than the internet!) that Gass has deliberately intertwined his patents and innovations to protect them as long as possible, no telling when the actual technology would fall into public domain.

It's pretty easy to unwind them. The basic patents are the important
ones and they're about to run out.

I still think that Festool has a deeper business plan, one that will use the current technology (and anything ancillary Gass has been working on) to develop other tools and markets. If they are working on a new large wheel buffer (don't just think cars size) that has a large spinning head, wouldn't it be nice to have it cut off immediately if a shirt or glove was caught in it? How nice would it be to have a blade stop technology on a joiner?

I still think Festool is just looking to move into the stationary tool
market and SawStop was a prime target for them.

Not thinking they have purchased the company and its technology to simply give it away to be popular with their own competition. TTS already owns a diverse set of companies that they have integrated some aspects like the Systainers built by Tanos and their high tech shop vac built by Cleantec into their catalogue. Doubtful this is a Christmas gift for all Festool's competition and us.

I don't think they were looking for the technology at all.

Probably just a smart move from a very well run company.

We can agree on that part.

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:27:56 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

That's a really neat dado blade. It's for felder (UK) saws only?

I don't know if the pinned mount is unique to Felder or if it's an EU
standard, however I suspect that it's necessary to keep the dado set from
coming loose when the brake hits. Note the spindown time--well under the
10 seconds that the EU allows.

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 22:21:57 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:27:56 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

That's a really neat dado blade. It's for felder (UK) saws only?

I don't know if the pinned mount is unique to Felder or if it's an EU
standard, however I suspect that it's necessary to keep the dado set from
coming loose when the brake hits. Note the spindown time--well under the
10 seconds that the EU allows.

Are the pins really necessary? Couldn't that sort of design be used
in the US? I think it's really slick - a perfect cross of a wobbler
and stacked set.