On 7/14/2017 10:06 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/14/2017 9:34 AM, Leon wrote:



I'm not criticizing, some make decisions based on features, some make
decisions based on emotion. Feaature based decisions tend to be
better for me in the long run because I usually get what I expect. If
I were basing a decision on emotion I would not be dealing with
pertinent information for making an informed decision.

Sometimes we rationalize what features are important based on emotion.

I try to not to do that. I may place more importance than I should on a
particular feature.

My wife persuaded me to get a SS/safer saw. As most know I cut half my
thumb off about 28 years ago.
Sooo I began my hunt for a safer TS. I was always sold on the SS and I
was very interested in the Laguna TSS with sliding table and scoring
blade. I was thinking about more bang for my buck If I was going to
upgrade from my Jet cabinet saw.

Because my safety was the ultimate goal I chose the SS and have been
very happy with the choice, very happy. I still think the sliding table
and scoring blade would be a nice feature but I have ways that I get
around without either.



If you want to buy a car based strictly on safety features, a Corvette
is a better buy than a Chevy Aveo. Sometimes you can avoid an accident
by getting out of the way fast so the Corvette is for the safety of my
wife in the passenger seat. Trust me, it is a purely rational decision.

About 5 years ago we were shopping for a new Mini Cooper. We were
really sold on a particular 2 seater model. It was going to be a fun to
drive car. With more research we got fewer answers from the
manufacturer and the dealer, it was like thay had something to hide.
We passed, as much as we wanted to buy that vehicle. As it turns out
passing was a great decision. Like most European vehicles they have
very high maintenance costs and reliability is way shy of the Asian
competition.

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 9:22:24 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Anyone that uses their
tools quite a bit for years on end, not just on weekends, or for those
in the trades, can afford Festool.In the long run their tools save
countless hours of labor and they last.

Hmmm... I would respectfully beg to differ. Some of my employees and even a couple of subs are lifetime tradesmen. Seems they all have at least a few kids, and with differing ages it is cheaper for the wife not to work, but to mind the house front and keep from paying exorbitant child care for 2, 3 (or even more) kids. Every week is a struggle. Add in normal kids' cost, family illness, rain/weather days, and on and on... they don't have the money.

Example: Festool hammerdrill/driver with batteries, and the impact driver tool only is $525 + $300 + tax, and you are at nearly $900. That is a ton of money for a lot of folks, regardless of how much the long term returns might be. It is important too, that one remembers that Festool is only confident enough to offer a 3 year warranty on their products. I remember many years ago when one of the guys I knew that worked at Woodcraft told me how much "out of warranty work" cost. It was scary.

And... as we say, sometimes, $10 is $10, right?

Example: As you know, I just bought the Ridgid equivalent of the above mentioned set. $178 + tax, and a LIFETIME warranty. Buy once, cry once, etc. No whining about Ridgid standing behind their warranty as I have followed their instructions implicitly and they have stood by their warranty without squabble. The Festool has batteries that should be longer lasting, but they really add a LOT the tool weight and it does come with a Systainer instead of the crappy nylon bag. Some guys like the soft cases as they are more easily packed into totes for transport (that includes me) as they have give to them making it easier to pack, but the Ridgid bags just plain suck. One big gold star to Festool for a usable tool case.

(So I bought an excellent Husky bag at Father's Day on closeout for $16 I really like, so back in business. The drill/driver bag now holds my Bosch 5" sander, a 4" finish sander, and a pile of sandpaper for both. Not a total loss, but still a POS.)

As far as affordability, from time to time I buy tools for my guys and let them pay me back over time. Got to be my "all star guys" or I don't. Miss a couple of days of work due to rain, the kids are sick from something going around school and have to go to the doctor, and you get your truck fixed.... and you are broke. So if they actually own and use their own tools, I will put a drill, saw, impact, or something like that on a tab and let them pay me back. Sometimes, as I remember well, you just don't have the money.

I have noticed that most that criticize Festool and other upper end
tools are ignorant of the features and quality of the tools and have no
real hands on experience.

It's that way with just about anything new. I have a first generation Milwaukee circular saw that had RED plastic parts with unpolished aluminum castings. Boy was it red... in a world of polished aluminum (Porter Cable, etc.), and black plastic with polished aluminum (Millers Falls, etc.) it really stood out. It also stood out years later when it was still running, and decades after that after it had been rebuilt (bearings/triggers/brushes) a few times. It still runs, but it isn't strong. At 40 plus years, it has earned a rest.

I still remember how much fun the boys made out of that saw, "Hey Robert, go get your Fisher Price saw and cut up the studs" and "I didn't know Mattel was in the tool business! What a POS!".

As someone that literally uses his tools to make a living and buys specific tools for specific purposes, I can say that most folks never use their tools to their potential, and some never learn how to use them correctly. That's fine; it;s like a guy that owns a Corvette that will go 180 mph... how often does he do it?

My first Festool tools were the Domino and the Festool vac. I was very
impressed with the quality and consistent results that I got with the
tool. FWIW I am well into my 3rd replacement box of 5mm Domino tenons,
1,800 tenons per box, along with the original 600. I am still using
the same 5mm bit that came with the Domino, about 10,000 mortises just
for that sized bit. And I do have an extra 5mm bit that is about 10
years old and has never been used.

Anyway I have added a Festool track saw, drill, 3 sanders and thier
work bench. I have passed on their routers, Kapex, and jig saw so far.

I was glad you added other tools to clarify the nature of your Domino tool, though. I thought it was a second son... "Well, I was out in the shop the other day with Domino and we got a lot done!" and "I took the Domino (kind of like saying "the boy") to work with Karl and me the other day" and it worked out great. Then "I have come up with some new joinery with the Domino and it really speeds things up; I can't imagine doing this without my Domino!" and comments like that. I thought Brian had a kid brother!

Just kidding... just messing around... the day is almost over here.
The boys are putting in the last of the plumbing on a kitchen remodel and I will get a nice draw and go smoke a cigar.

But you know, I told guys for years that my DeWalt 713 I had was the son I never had... no kidding!

Robert

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:47:51 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...


snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

Hey, if he knows what's going on in my mind then I get to know what's going
on in his.

I'm not really interested in discussing Leon.

Sez the guy who brought up Leon in the first place.

plonk

On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 7:47:39 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:47:51 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...


snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

Hey, if he knows what's going on in my mind then I get to know what's going
on in his.

I'm not really interested in discussing Leon.

Sez the guy who brought up Leon in the first place.

plonk

I must have hurt his feelings.

On 7/14/2017 3:36 PM, wrote:
On Friday, July 14, 2017 at 9:22:24 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Anyone that uses their
tools quite a bit for years on end, not just on weekends, or for those
in the trades, can afford Festool.In the long run their tools save
countless hours of labor and they last.

Hmmm... I would respectfully beg to differ. Some of my employees and even a couple of subs are lifetime tradesmen. Seems they all have at least a few kids, and with differing ages it is cheaper for the wife not to work, but to mind the house front and keep from paying exorbitant child care for 2, 3 (or even more) kids. Every week is a struggle. Add in normal kids' cost, family illness, rain/weather days, and on and on... they don't have the money.

Ahhh yes, you are correct and I was painting a bit too much with a broad
brush. Anyone pretty much means Everyone. And that was not what I
actually meant to day.





Example: Festool hammerdrill/driver with batteries, and the impact driver tool only is $525 + $300 + tax, and you are at nearly $900. That is a ton of money for a lot of folks, regardless of how much the long term returns might be. It is important too, that one remembers that Festool is only confident enough to offer a 3 year warranty on their products. I remember many years ago when one of the guys I knew that worked at Woodcraft told me how much "out of warranty work" cost. It was scary.

And... as we say, sometimes, $10 is $10, right?

Example: As you know, I just bought the Ridgid equivalent of the above mentioned set. $178 + tax, and a LIFETIME warranty. Buy once, cry once, etc. No whining about Ridgid standing behind their warranty as I have followed their instructions implicitly and they have stood by their warranty without squabble. The Festool has batteries that should be longer lasting, but they really add a LOT the tool weight and it does come with a Systainer instead of the crappy nylon bag. Some guys like the soft cases as they are more easily packed into totes for transport (that includes me) as they have give to them making it easier to pack, but the Ridgid bags just plain suck. One big gold star to Festool for a usable tool case.

(So I bought an excellent Husky bag at Father's Day on closeout for $16 I really like, so back in business. The drill/driver bag now holds my Bosch 5" sander, a 4" finish sander, and a pile of sandpaper for both. Not a total loss, but still a POS.)

As far as affordability, from time to time I buy tools for my guys and let them pay me back over time. Got to be my "all star guys" or I don't. Miss a couple of days of work due to rain, the kids are sick from something going around school and have to go to the doctor, and you get your truck fixed... and you are broke. So if they actually own and use their own tools, I will put a drill, saw, impact, or something like that on a tab and let them pay me back. Sometimes, as I remember well, you just don't have the money.

all true.





I have noticed that most that criticize Festool and other upper end
tools are ignorant of the features and quality of the tools and have no
real hands on experience.

It's that way with just about anything new. I have a first generation Milwaukee circular saw that had RED plastic parts with unpolished aluminum castings. Boy was it red... in a world of polished aluminum (Porter Cable, etc.), and black plastic with polished aluminum (Millers Falls, etc.) it really stood out. It also stood out years later when it was still running, and decades after that after it had been rebuilt (bearings/triggers/brushes) a few times. It still runs, but it isn't strong. At 40 plus years, it has earned a rest.

I still remember how much fun the boys made out of that saw, "Hey Robert, go get your Fisher Price saw and cut up the studs" and "I didn't know Mattel was in the tool business! What a POS!".

As someone that literally uses his tools to make a living and buys specific tools for specific purposes, I can say that most folks never use their tools to their potential, and some never learn how to use them correctly. That's fine; it;s like a guy that owns a Corvette that will go 180 mph... how often does he do it?

My first Festool tools were the Domino and the Festool vac. I was very
impressed with the quality and consistent results that I got with the
tool. FWIW I am well into my 3rd replacement box of 5mm Domino tenons,
1,800 tenons per box, along with the original 600. I am still using
the same 5mm bit that came with the Domino, about 10,000 mortises just
for that sized bit. And I do have an extra 5mm bit that is about 10
years old and has never been used.

Anyway I have added a Festool track saw, drill, 3 sanders and thier
work bench. I have passed on their routers, Kapex, and jig saw so far.

I was glad you added other tools to clarify the nature of your Domino tool, though. I thought it was a second son... "Well, I was out in the shop the other day with Domino and we got a lot done!" and "I took the Domino (kind of like saying "the boy") to work with Karl and me the other day" and it worked out great. Then "I have come up with some new joinery with the Domino and it really speeds things up; I can't imagine doing this without my Domino!" and comments like that. I thought Brian had a kid brother!

Just kidding... just messing around... the day is almost over here.
The boys are putting in the last of the plumbing on a kitchen remodel and I will get a nice draw and go smoke a cigar.

But you know, I told guys for years that my DeWalt 713 I had was the son I never had... no kidding!

Robert


;~)

As someone that literally uses his tools to make a living and buys
specific tools for specific purposes, I can say that most folks never
use their tools to their potential,

Surely, I fall under that category. Case in point is my torque wrench.
I may only use it once or twice a year, to attach a lawnmower blade or a
sparkplug. I have relatives that "do without", but I wouldn't be without
it (I'm such a "beast" I would screw stuff up : ) ). I'm soon ready to
use again one of those oscillating tools, that were highly-touted here,
to remove some thin-set (from under a few tiles). I'm learning that to
use tools to their potential, you have to put a little effort into how
they can be used. It wouldn't take long to persuade me to buy an angle
grinder from HF, I just have to learn more about what I'm going to do
with it. For instance, is it any good for demolition? I've got a too
damn-well built "umbrella table" that my wife got from free 5 years
ago. Cut the legs off yesterday with my ($25 HF) reciprocating saw
(another tool I use a few times a year, at best). The 8' table top must
still weight 50 pounds (I like to put it in trash bags). It's got a
heavy duty angle-iron steel frame under the top. A bit of a errant
post, but you can see I'm using a few tools, if not using them "to their
potential".

Cheers,
Bill

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 7:53:04 AM UTC-4, Bill wrote:
As someone that literally uses his tools to make a living and buys
specific tools for specific purposes, I can say that most folks never
use their tools to their potential,

Surely, I fall under that category. Case in point is my torque wrench.
I may only use it once or twice a year, to attach a lawnmower blade or a
sparkplug. I have relatives that "do without", but I wouldn't be without
it (I'm such a "beast" I would screw stuff up : ) ). I'm soon ready to
use again one of those oscillating tools, that were highly-touted here,
to remove some thin-set (from under a few tiles). I'm learning that to
use tools to their potential, you have to put a little effort into how
they can be used. It wouldn't take long to persuade me to buy an angle
grinder from HF, I just have to learn more about what I'm going to do
with it. For instance, is it any good for demolition? I've got a too
damn-well built "umbrella table" that my wife got from free 5 years
ago. Cut the legs off yesterday with my ($25 HF) reciprocating saw
(another tool I use a few times a year, at best). The 8' table top must
still weight 50 pounds (I like to put it in trash bags). It's got a
heavy duty angle-iron steel frame under the top. A bit of a errant
post, but you can see I'm using a few tools, if not using them "to their
potential".

Cheers,
Bill

Going off topic here, but why are you putting the top in trash bags? Can't you recycle the
metal frame as opposed to sending it to a land fill?

If I put out any substantial metal the night before trash day, it's gone by morning.

Even if you don't have harvesters in your neighborhood, don't you have recycling bins
for metal?

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Going off topic here, but why are you putting the top in trash bags? Can't you recycle the
metal frame as opposed to sending it to a land fill?
My trash service, that I contract directly, will only pick up trash bags
or empty those 60 gallon trash containers. There charge "ridiculous"
extra cost for other things, since they say they have to make a special
trip (based on prior estimates, I'd say they would want at least $80).
I think we have figured how we are going to get rid of it (with permission).

I was trying to avoid removing the (30+?) screws holding the frame to
the table, and screwing around with it any longer. I'd rather use the
time trying to remove the abundant mold and algae that resulted on my
deck as a result of the table's presence. The deck looks bigger already!

Bill

On Sunday, July 16, 2017 at 6:53:04 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
As someone that literally uses his tools to make a living and buys
specific tools for specific purposes, I can say that most folks never
use their tools to their potential,

Surely, I fall under that category.

As do I. I may use some of them all day long, or use them to skillfully, but certainly not all of them. I use my carpentry/woodworking tools a lot and have developed a proficiency with them as well as other tools I use regularly in my business. Same with my spray guns and finishing equipment.

But the plumbing tools... it takes me 10X longer to solder a joint, flare a connection, etc., than it should.

You can easily make the same assumption with computer use. I use my computer to do my books, generate invoices, generate estimates, write reports, edit/annotate pictures, pay my company (and personal) bills, order materials, set up labor, general correspondence, to design my business cards, my stationery, do product research, contract research and on a on. I am on the computer so much I have two laptops (one I carry all the time, one for non-secure locations), a desk top and a tablet. According to the good folks at Microsoft, I fall into the category where I use about 25% of my computer('s) capability.

So I think depending on how you look at it, none of us use our tools to their highest use!

Robert