On 7/9/2017 7:51 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/9/2017 3:57 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so maybe.

I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Check again. EU regs require that the saw spin down in 10 seconds or less,
usually accomplished with a brake of some kind. Since the manufacturer
usually wants to use the cheapest brake that will do the job, they barely
put in enough brake to spin down a regular blade in that time, so put a
dado on it and it runs over. The manufacturers address this by putting a
short spindle on the saw so a dado can't be attached. One suspects that
Festool, being Festool, would just stick the brakes off a Mercedes on the
thing.


But dado's are being put on the Euro saws. LARGE massive dado's.

This German saw will cut up to 20 mm dado's. Check the specs.

Leon, nobody said that it was impossible to stop a dado in 10 seconds.
Only that it takes more than a bargain-basement brake. That saw you're
looking at costs about three times as much as a maxed-out Sawstop so has it
occurred to you that it might have just a _little_ better brake than, say,
a $500 buck Axminster?



I was responding to this suggestion

Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

On 7/9/2017 7:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:27:56 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

That's a really neat dado blade. It's for felder (UK) saws only?



No, I "think" it is available here. A few years ago I was looking at
SawStop, Laguna, and Felder. IIRC that blade was available.

On 7/9/2017 9:21 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 14:27:56 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 2:02 PM, dpb wrote:
On 07/09/2017 11:23 AM, Leon wrote:
...

My guess is that Festool would/could probably introduce this technology
to their Kapex, maybe their planers... I doubt that they would want to
start making a Festool TS with this feature since they now own a company
that does make TS's. Festool seems, at least here, to focus on the
portable power tools. The TS is less portable with the exception of the
job site contractors saw.
I guess Festool could share technologies and maybe offer a better fence
other than the Beis clone. Something like the old Delta Unifence comes
to mind. Maybe not a wobble but perhaps an oscillating blade option for
dados.

I can't see much need at all on planer unless you're thinking of
handheld jobbers (which I guess is all Festool would have, anyway) so
maybe.

Yeah, the Festool hand held planer.



I think the biggest safety spot albeit not so much in use any more w/
the advent of the larger router is the spindle shaper (or the router
mounted as a shaper). There's a chunk of spinning steel that can do
some major damage in a hurry. I doubt it could meet the proposed CPSC
spec, but it could minimize the trauma otherwise.

I wonder if the shapers, and mostly because they spin at a relative low
RPM compared to a TS blade, if they could make an electromagnetic brake
much like cordless drills use.


Festool'll have to stay out of the equation on the TS from the EU
regulation standpoint or there will be no dado head of any type; EU
reg's prohibit them and I think enforce user compliance by not allowing
an arbor shaft long enough to mount one...

Yeah there is that. And I wonder what the issue with a dado blade is
with the EU regulation. But with that knowledge I think it is more
about stacking blades than cutting dado's. If the arbor oscillated like
a spindle sander does a single blade could be used.
As for as the EU is concerned I do not think a dado blade is the issue
as you can get dado blades that are fixed width. I really think it is
about the multiple stacked blades that is the issue. I think with so
many surfaces touching each other extra pressure is needed to prevent
the mass from coming loose on the arbor. More than a simple single
blade. I witnessed this once on my saw, I did not properly tighten the
dado set and it had enough mass and momentum that the stack continued to
spin well after the arbor stopped spinning. And on my right tilt saw it
could have loosened the nut enough to fall off.

Check out this Felder dado blade. Actually stacked but only two really
wide dado blades that engage on the arbor and two dowels that lock the
blades to prevent slipping between each blade.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06PzXIqzQXM

That's a really neat dado blade. It's for felder (UK) saws only?

I don't know if the pinned mount is unique to Felder or if it's an EU
standard, however I suspect that it's necessary to keep the dado set from
coming loose when the brake hits. Note the spindown time--well under the
10 seconds that the EU allows.


Many of those Euro saws have large diameter blades. I suspect it is to
keep any blade from spinning.

On 7/9/2017 7:38 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 10:35:54 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article 968229027.521296539.111193.lcb11211-
, says...

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass,
never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I
don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements,
but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it.
While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours
and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas
and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar
company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology
as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the
technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass
is part of the company?


Some will always make decisions based on non pertinent emotions. It's the
only way they know how to choose.

The cost to offer a feature on a product is inconsequential if your
customer is willing to pay for it. Proven time and again with the success
of each new line of saws that SS has introduced.

Given SS's success and dominance, in a relative short amount of time, and
the obvious disappearance of some brands and their respective models in
woodworking businesses, I would say that not paying for the licenses and
offering their customers a choice to to buy this safety technology was far
more costly than the license.

Before SS I recall being able to touch and feel, at local stores, the
larger DeWalt hybrid TS's, Hitachi contractor saws, Powermatic contractor
saws, Delta Unisaws and contractor saws, ShopSmith multifunction machines,
Steel City table saws. Today in the our country's 4th largest city/metro
area your obvious choices have shrunk to SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet if
you want to touch and feel a non bench top sized TS.


In the past 15 or so years, with the introduction of each new model/class
of TS, those brands/models listed above have one by one disappeared from
local retailers floors.

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.

Why? The only market in which SawStop has made any inroads is table saws.
Festool does not make table saws, so they don't even try to play in that
particular market.

Until now.

It is more likely that they have decided to expand their product line to
include stationary tools than it is that they thought they needed to
"remain relevant".

Perhaps not "remain relevant", rather "grow". What further portable
(hand operated) power tools can they make that they don't now?


I think remain relevant for some. Is Delta or Steel City relevant any more?

On 7/9/2017 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 01:09:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments. With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology until they no longer can.

We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of products.

My take on it is that the SawStop patents are about to run out and
Festool just picked up another good product line, probably on the
cheap (because of the above).

I think patents have been on going.

On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 23:11:25 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 7/9/2017 5:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 01:09:28 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments. With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology until they no longer can.

We may see something else that performs the same task, but I would readily bet we don't see the SawStop technology outside of the TTS stable of products.

My take on it is that the SawStop patents are about to run out and
Festool just picked up another good product line, probably on the
cheap (because of the above).

I think patents have been on going.

Sure but the key patents are about to lapse. These are first patents
that block other implementations. The rest are just that,
implementations and relatively easy to work around.

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:09:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)


If Festool does as Mercedes did with four-wheel electronically controlled
anti-skid and makes it available to the industry at no charge then I would
consider such a tool.

Understand, my problem with Gass is that he has been seeking a government-
imposed non-regulated monopoly. This is just plain not acceptable.

On 7/10/2017 5:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:09:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

On 7/10/2017 11:42 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/10/2017 5:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:09:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of
SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the
technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized
by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

It does here, but what about in Romania? That is where rebadging may
make sense if the Festool name is well recognized there.

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 22:42:13 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/10/2017 5:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:09:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw. Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

The "particular market" was what I was referring to. I don't know all
of their markets. I assume Festool has a wider market than SS.

On 7/11/2017 11:44 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/10/2017 11:42 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/10/2017 5:59 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 14:09:48 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/9/2017 6:15 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 9 Jul 2017 08:12:29 -0600, Brewster wrote:

On 7/9/17 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:

I would say that Festool was pretty smart with the acquisition of
SawStop.
Obviously more costly than just buying a license to offer the
technology
but also an investment into remaining relevant.





So Leon, are you ready for your next Domino to have a steel spike
explosively shoot into the motor armature and the bit get
vaporized by a
laser when your finger gets too close to the cutter? 8^)


I'll be very interested if Festool does come out with a table saw.
Not
necessarily to buy one, but to see what innovative features they
might
come up with. The TS has not changed much in the past century
beyond a
raise/tilt system and a fence, what truly game changing feature could
possibly be next (besides more safety stuff)?
\
Why would Festool come out with a table saw. They like SawStop so
much that they bought the company. They don't need to develop
anything.


If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

It does here, but what about in Romania? That is where rebadging may
make sense if the Festool name is well recognized there.


I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

On 7/11/2017 12:56 PM, wrote:
Snip



If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

The "particular market" was what I was referring to. I don't know all
of their markets. I assume Festool has a wider market than SS.


Entirely possible but the SawStop is a game changer. FWIW I was aware
of the Domino a year or two before it was available here and before I
bought my first piece if Festool equipment. I think Youtube has
probably already made the SS pretty well known.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 13:05:54 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/11/2017 12:56 PM, wrote:
Snip



If the have a strong hold and name recognition in a particular market
they will just re-brand the SawStop. Labels are cheap.

Prezactly. Maybe paint it green.


I suspect that SawStop holds it's own and would not need to be renamed.

The "particular market" was what I was referring to. I don't know all
of their markets. I assume Festool has a wider market than SS.


Entirely possible but the SawStop is a game changer. FWIW I was aware
of the Domino a year or two before it was available here and before I
bought my first piece if Festool equipment. I think Youtube has
probably already made the SS pretty well known.

That's the sort of thing that the counters-of-beans are paid to figure
out.

On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:37:34 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

How do they keep from burning the wood?

On 7/11/2017 5:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:37:34 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

How do they keep from burning the wood?


Cut it upside down from how we do it. Everything is on the wrong side
there, even driving.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 18:13:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 5:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:37:34 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

How do they keep from burning the wood?


Cut it upside down from how we do it. Everything is on the wrong side
there, even driving.

Ah, I didn't consider feeding the board on the bottom side of the
table. Of course, it makes perfect sense.

On 7/11/2017 3:37 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and
the demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with
the SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not
already available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

Yeah, I had not thought of that. ;~)

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

Sez the guy with a garage full of Festools.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 19:58:05 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

Sez the guy with a garage full of Festools.

So Leon doesn't get emotional about Gass and you (and I) think he's a
scumbag (emotional). What does a "garage full of Festools" have to do
with it?

Disclosu I have my share of Festools, too (no SawStop).

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 7:58:12 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

Sez the guy with a garage full of Festools.

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 7:58:12 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

Sez the guy with a garage full of Festools.

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 18:13:02 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 5:02 PM, wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 16:37:34 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/11/2017 1:57 PM, Leon wrote:



I see your point but have you heard of Hammer, Atendorf? While not
brands we often see, any of us have heard of them. With Youtube and the
demo's I suspect that woodworkers every where are familiar with the
SawStop brand. And I would be surprised if SawStop was not already
available in Europe, Australia, ect.

I doubt it is available in Australia. The blades turn in the opposite
direction there and the brake cartridge flips the blade up higher. I'm
pretty sure they use the fence on the opposite side too.

How do they keep from burning the wood?


Cut it upside down from how we do it. Everything is on the wrong side
there, even driving.

And here I thought they cut the stuff on the ceiling!

On 7/12/2017 7:42 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 7:58:12 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/10/2017 9:45 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 10:26:36 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 5:44:38 AM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 7:18:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

Looks like one of the competitors that appreciates the technology took
Gass seriously.

I'm betting that we might see more tools from Festool that might have
this type technology.

This all assuming that they bought the rights to this technology also.

Probably a couple of different things at play here. I don't know Gass, never met him, but he has a reputation for his abrasive behavior. I don't see much commentary about the actual technological achievements, but it could be he has taken this as far as his own talent can take it. While furthering his own agenda he has no doubt sunk countless hours and dollars into defending the blade stop patents.

A fresh infusion of money, a team of exacting engineers with new ideas and energy could be a real boon to SawStop. Plus, a billion dollar company with a hard of lawyers will be defending the SawStop technology as they have aggressively done with their own products.

My hope was that Gass would run out of gas and start licensing the technology and its ancillary developments.

He was always happy to license it. The trouble is he wanted a bizarre
royalty arrangement--3% of wholesale initially, going to 8% if most of the
industry adopted the technology.

With their teams of patent attorneys and the own marketing plans, no
doubt in my mind that TTS will guard, protect and hoard the technology
until they no longer can.

I dunno. European companies have a reputation for being fairly altruistic
with regard to safety technologies.


Just a question, not an attack:

If Festool is indeed altruistic regarding the technology and allows other to incorporate
it in their own tools - at what you would consider a fair royalty arrangement - would you
still refuse to buy Festool products based solely on the fact that Gass is part of the company?

As long as he personally was profiting from the purchase, yes. The sort of
behavior in which he has engaged should not be encouraged.

"Personally" may be for a long time. Even if he moves on, there may very well
be contractual obligations to continue to pay him.

Heck, even if he dies, there may very well be contractual obligations to
continue to pay his estate. Of course, that wouldn't be "personal". You
can't blame his family for his greedy ways, can you.? ;-)

If you make you decisions based on emotion, yes, you can let the blame
go on and on.

Sez the guy with a garage full of Festools.

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.



Who is the competition in the same price range? Fein? Not nearly the
same offerings. Do you own any Festools?

If you think buying Festool is emotional, yes it is if you like the
color and only buy Festool because you believe that Festool has the best
of everything. I don't do that and neither should anyone else. That
would be irrational, like turning down a tool that can be good
regardless of how it was brought to market.

The next to last power tool that I bought was a Makita trim router,
actual last was a Festool Sander, my third.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

....or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

Hey, if he knows what's going on in my mind then I get to know what's going
on in his.

I'm not really interested in discussing Leon.

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:47:43 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

Hey, if he knows what's going on in my mind then I get to know what's going
on in his.

No equivalence at all. You've stated your dislike for SawStop is
because of the crap Gass has pulled. That *is* 100% emotional. BTW,
I'm right there with you.

OTOH, there are perfectly rational arguments for Festools. Perhaps
you can't see them because you don't chose to try (could be an
emotional or financial reason).

I'm not really interested in discussing Leon.

Then why did you start?

On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:30:07 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

The emotion of a good tool that does what he needs, in other word
satisfaction, an emotion.

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:47:51 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...


snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."

Hey, if he knows what's going on in my mind then I get to know what's going
on in his.

I'm not really interested in discussing Leon.

Sez the guy who brought up Leon in the first place.

On 7/13/2017 9:30 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.


I'm not criticizing, some make decisions based on features, some make
decisions based on emotion. Feaature based decisions tend to be better
for me in the long run because I usually get what I expect. If I were
basing a decision on emotion I would not be dealing with pertinent
information for making an informed decision.

On 7/13/2017 8:20 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?

I believe that Festool is not for every one. Anyone that uses their
tools quite a bit for years on end, not just on weekends, or for those
in the trades, can afford Festool. In the long run their tools save
countless hours of labor and they last. Festool is a bargain compared
to most of the competition with like tools considering the quality and
durability of the tool. With that said I can also see how someone in
the trades might shy away From Festool, Bosch, Fein, etc. because of the
potential of the tools walking off. It just makes sense to buy tools
that are good enough if they are less likely to disappear.

I have noticed that most that criticize Festool and other upper end
tools are ignorant of the features and quality of the tools and have no
real hands on experience.

My first Festool tools were the Domino and the Festool vac. I was very
impressed with the quality and consistent results that I got with the
tool. FWIW I am well into my 3rd replacement box of 5mm Domino tenons,
1,800 tenons per box, along with the original 600. I am still using
the same 5mm bit that came with the Domino, about 10,000 mortises just
for that sized bit. And I do have an extra 5mm bit that is about 10
years old and has never been used.

Anyway I have added a Festool track saw, drill, 3 sanders and thier
work bench. I have passed on their routers, Kapex, and jig saw so far.
I simply can not justify their expense from an actual usage and return
on investment stand point. I am certain that many others use the same
valid reasoning.

For those that do not have to watch the purse strings closely the
Festool tool is a nice tool to work with.








I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

On 7/13/2017 9:41 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:30:14 PM UTC-4, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

Were you there when he bought them? Did you have your couch and note pad with you?

"So Leon, tell us how you were feeling when you bought the Kapex."


;!) I have not yet bought a Kapex, because emotions are not a part of my
decision making process.

On 7/13/2017 10:16 PM, Markem wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:30:07 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 9:20:32 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 20:42:23 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

snip

What does owning a particular brand of (quality) tools have to do with it?

Where's the "emotional" comparison between your feelings about Gass and someone
else's choice of manufacturer?

Also an emotional decision. For most purposes most Festools aren't any
better than the competition in the same price range.

First, there really isn't any close competition for many of their
tools. The first Festool I bought was the track saw. At the time,
anyway, it was about the same price as the competition but they didn't
have close to the variety of accessories that Festool offered. No
competition at all. You could argue that their jigsaws are comparable
with Bosch. I don't think you're going to find competition for the
Domino.

...or are you just jealous that others have what you can't afford?


I'm also scratching my head about the link between Festools and Gass.
I understand not buying SawStop because of the horse's ass but having
a hair across your ass for Festool because of Gass??? Weird! Just
weird.

I'm guessing it was an emotional response. ;-)

The point is that Leon is criticizing others making "emotional" decisions
when he has a bunch of Festools that he bought on the basis of emotion.

The emotion of a good tool that does what he needs, in other word
satisfaction, an emotion.


Perfectly fine to have emotions about a tool that you already own, that
is not a part of making a decision. I can't seem to part with my 30
year old Honda lawn mower. The chrome mid cross bar is rusted where my
3 year old son would grab it with his sweaty hands and help me cut the
yard in 1990.


And going out on a tangent, the wheel bearings squeak, the recoil rope
does not always retract the last 12 inches, and the handle bar has some
rust. ;~) I know that it's days are numbered and I contemplate having
the whole mower rebuilt or trading it in every time I use it, while it
still has some trade in value. Yes, my dad traded in a similar 14 year
old model for another Honda and was given $200 for trade. He wanted an
upgraded feature that the new one had. Mine is a unique 19" commercial
model, Still starts on a pull or 2 and does a fine job.

Anyway,,,,

It is ok to make a decision on emotion if that is what helps you sleep
at night. I personally don't want emotion to stand in the way of making
a good decision when making a purchase.

On 7/14/2017 9:34 AM, Leon wrote:



I'm not criticizing, some make decisions based on features, some make
decisions based on emotion. Feaature based decisions tend to be better
for me in the long run because I usually get what I expect. If I were
basing a decision on emotion I would not be dealing with pertinent
information for making an informed decision.

Sometimes we rationalize what features are important based on emotion.

If you want to buy a car based strictly on safety features, a Corvette
is a better buy than a Chevy Aveo. Sometimes you can avoid an accident
by getting out of the way fast so the Corvette is for the safety of my
wife in the passenger seat. Trust me, it is a purely rational decision.