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Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.

I went and looked at them and they will fill the bill nicely.

NO ONE at the store can answer this, so I am hoping you can. I want to be able to lock the boxes together so they are secured and can't come apart. I know there is a "lock bar" that hold them together, but I can't find out if the kit comes with it. I want to be able to roll that to a client's house with the tools, and if I will be working there a few days, roll it into their garage, all locked up to keep the prying hands out.

I am compartmentalizing as much as possible these days and carrying a lot of crap around in tool bags. A pretty good solution, but not lockable, and in fact too easy to get into. They seem to create a lot of interest. So a lockable solution seems to me to be the ticket.

So the big question (before they sell out again in San Antonio) is

Do the kit come with the "lock bar" to secure all three boxes together in the cart or not?

Thanks for putting me on to these.

Robert
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Default PING -MIKE-

On 6/13/17 9:57 AM, wrote:
Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got
the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have
the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.

I went and looked at them and they will fill the bill nicely.

NO ONE at the store can answer this, so I am hoping you can. I want
to be able to lock the boxes together so they are secured and can't
come apart. I know there is a "lock bar" that hold them together,
but I can't find out if the kit comes with it. I want to be able to
roll that to a client's house with the tools, and if I will be
working there a few days, roll it into their garage, all locked up
to keep the prying hands out.

I am compartmentalizing as much as possible these days and carrying
a lot of crap around in tool bags. A pretty good solution, but not
lockable, and in fact too easy to get into. They seem to create a
lot of interest. So a lockable solution seems to me to be the
ticket.

So the big question (before they sell out again in San Antonio) is

Do the kit come with the "lock bar" to secure all three boxes
together in the cart or not?

Thanks for putting me on to these.

Robert


Short answer: yes.

Long answer, the locking bar comes attached to the bottom, dolly tool
box. It slides into a channel on the lid, which BTW, can come loose and
be a bit of a PITA when not using it. So check a few different boxes
and get the one that holds the bar the tightest.

You cam see the bar in the pictures on the HD site, and see how it locks
in a couple seconds of the video. Each box has a latch for a padlock
and then you can padlock the bar, holding the 3 boxes together.

Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.



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On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:
..
Short answer: yes.


Thanks for the speedy answer!

Long answer, the locking bar comes attached to the bottom, dolly tool
box. It slides into a channel on the lid, which BTW, can come loose and
be a bit of a PITA when not using it. So check a few different boxes
and get the one that holds the bar the tightest.


That will be tough. They don't even have a display as they are flying out of my nearest store as soon as they unload the truck. Literally... I have three jobs going near a large HD, and they will have them palletized, sitting near the tools. Next day when I go to get material, they are ALL gone.

However, when I get it to the job, I will check that out first thing.


You cam see the bar in the pictures on the HD site, and see how it locks
in a couple seconds of the video. Each box has a latch for a padlock
and then you can padlock the bar, holding the 3 boxes together.

Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.


Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.

Robert

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On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:


Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.


Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.

Robert


Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?

From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml

"THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"

Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.

Stolen hoes

In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
hoes, four shovels and two spades.

In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
hoe and two dung forks."
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On 6/13/2017 10:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:


Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.


Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.

Robert


Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?

From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml

"THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"

Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.

Stolen hoes

In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
hoes, four shovels and two spades.

In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
hoe and two dung forks."



As long as there has been some kind of law enforcement, there has been
crime.

On another note, Stolen hoes. LOL What's a pimp to do?

I was watching the Family Feud and Steve Harvey ask the question, What
is the farmers wife jealous of? After a some thought the contestant
answered, her husbands hoe? Steve lost it.


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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet writes:
On 6/13/2017 10:26 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:25:20 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:


Obviously, this will only keep an honest man, honest, and not stop a
professional thief.

Sadly, those low expectations are about all we can hope for these days.

Robert


Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?

From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml

"THE USE, VALUE AND THEFT OF 18TH-CENTURY GARDEN TOOLS
When Shovels and Dung Forks Were Among Life's Most Important Possessions"

Peoples' livelihoods directly depended on their garden tools. And the value
of those tools also made them a common target for thieves, as illustrated
by advertisements in the Pennsylvania Gazette.

Stolen hoes

In 1763, for example, Adam Reed of Lancaster County accompanied his local
constable to a spot where they found Mr. Reed's stolen property "hid in
the ground." Among the purloined articles unearthed were four grubbing
hoes, four shovels and two spades.

In another case, during the Revolutionary War, John Jones of Southwark
left personal tools in the care of one Captain Christian Grover "at the
time of the approach of the enemy" to Philadelphia. In 1778 Mr. Jones
advertised for the return of his property, promising that whoever returned
his belongings would be "rewarded in proportion to their trouble or expense."
Among his prized possessions were two spades, five garden hoes, one grubbing
hoe and two dung forks."



As long as there has been some kind of law enforcement, there has been
crime.


Crime is independent of law enforcement. One must consider that at
the time (1763), hoes, spades, shovels, pitchforks were all hand-made
one-at-a-time. Which made them valuable and relatively rare items.


On another note, Stolen hoes. LOL What's a pimp to do?

I was watching the Family Feud and Steve Harvey ask the question, What
is the farmers wife jealous of? After a some thought the contestant
answered, her husbands hoe? Steve lost it.


And if you think that answer was spontaneous, well ...
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On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:26:12 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Do you really think it was all that different in days of yore?

From http://historiccamdencounty.com/ccnews69.shtml


Never have. Over the last 40+ years I have equipped thieves with enough tools to build a shopping mall many times over. I learned early that most people range from slightly dishonest to downright thieves.

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?

My employees take saw blades, recip saw blades, drive bits, drill bits, and put them on their tools and use them, then they are theirs. Since I own the company, I must have plenty of money to buy those things since we always have them around, right? Please, no lecture on employee management from the gallery. It is an accepted practice in today's construction fabric, as is stealing tools from your employer if you think you have been wronged in some way.

My clients have stolen from me. They want something free as they feel like it makes them better negotiators to get something free. Some are indignant if I don't give them something... anything. And I even had one client try to steal my compressor and hoses that we left (with his enthusiastic permission) overnight on the job. After I replaced the compressor and we were finishing the job, I saw my compressor in his shed when someone left the door open. It was behind other tools like his lawnmower, but he claimed it was an honest mistake.

My own truck has been broken into seven times at this point. I have had thousands of dollars or material and tools taken from jobs and even the back of my truck.

I never thought or have thought it was different except in the punishment phase. When I started in the trades it was different, and if you stole a tool that prevented a man from making a living that fed his family, you had some dire consequences (and a helluva a beating)to face if caught. Now, not so much.

I have always thought the idea of a completely honest man is a bit of childish whimsy, like unicorns or roads paved with candy canes.

If I thought even a small minority of people where honest and wouldn't steal, I wouldn't bother with the locks on anything. And for me, the honest people that observe the "it just keeps honest men honest" rule are ONLY as honest as the lock they face.

Robert
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On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM, wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?


All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
dropped to the same as everyone else.

Revenge was his. A new tool came along and he asked for help to set it
up. The engineer that designed it could not make the part. He had the
toolmaker come and he could not get it to run either, then they went to
lunch after investing a day plus of their time. Ten minutes later,
Richard put a perfect part on my desk and said "can I go to the
storeroom for gloves?" Yes, you can, any time you want.

I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
early". No reason to be sneaky about it.
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" was heard to mutter:
Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.


Are these the ones you are talking about?
https://smile.amazon.com/RIDGID-Prof...idgid+tool+box

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On 6/15/17 12:44 PM, Casper wrote:
" was heard to mutter:
Mike (or anyone with experience in this matter!), they finally got the stackable Ridgid tool boxes in at our local stores. They have the 3 box/cart kit as you described for $99. So far, so good.


Are these the ones you are talking about?
https://smile.amazon.com/RIDGID-Prof...idgid+tool+box



Yessir! They are $99 for the set of 3 at HD and online.
HD ships to store for free in not in stock.
Ship to home is probably still cheaper than Amazon.


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On 6/15/2017 10:36 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 8:09:35 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
dropped to the same as everyone else.

Revenge was his.


You just made my point, although in another way. He was butt hurt, and decided to have an enforced slow down. He was no longer working to his ability, but being to spineless to QUIT, work it out with the manager (might not be possible) or accept the fact that under NLRB rulings he must be treated the same as all other employees, he deliberately decided to "get even" with a manager that was making sure the employee followed the same rules as everyone else.


No, not really. As I stated, everyone works differently. If you tied
Richard to a machine he could not consistently work at the pace he did
in spurts. Another example. Loading a truck (floor load, no forklift)
takes most everyone 75 to 90 minutes. Glen does it in 45 to 60 but then
would take a break for 10 minutes. At the end of the day he does one or
two trucks more than anyone else but you want me to take away his breaks
so he does not get special treatment. Fact is, he was special and
outworked anyone in the shop.



I can see it and hear it now. "Robert... you know XXXX is taking and extra break every day to go smoke, so why are you ****ed off at me for having an extra soda break behind the building? I just do it a couple of times a week, and he gets away with it every day".


Right, and when you can do what the other guy does you can take breaks too.




As f'd up as it sounds, it is better to take a chance on a bad employee decision to keep all employees governed under the same set of rules than it is to make an exception that shows favoritism causing long term payment/fine consequences paid on your full payroll. So in this case, your guy decided to screw the employer directly because he didn't get special treatment.

Been there, done that, got a shipping container full of the T shirts.


Not so sure. You sound like a prick to work for. At the end of the day
tally up what was done, now how many smoke breaks they took.



I have had employees that were great earners for me, but used my tools and equipment to moonlight, adding he extra wear and tear on not only the tools but their consumables. Their reasoning? If they didn't use them, they would just be sitting in the tool box. I have had great employees that use my laptop and software, and my proprietary estimating formulas on the weekends to start a consulting business for prospective remodeling clients. Not to do the work, but to help design and cost out the job. Their reasoning? "I was doing it to help me get more fluent with the software." The two guys that did that to me actually tried to sell me on the idea that if they were more fluent with the software, it benefited me, so ACTUALLY, they were kind of doing it for me! How thoughtful.


That does sound like abuse.



I stick with what I said. It is either on a small scale (took a pen or notepad) or something big like the guy that used one of my company trucks to start a small junk hauling company. Could be an extra 15 minutes for lunch; a few texts back and forth with several people ("Robert, you don't know how dangerous it is these days for kids... I have to make sure they are home") and on an on.


Again. what is the tally at the end of the day. Texting can get out of
hand with a lot of people though.



Take a look:

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...utf-8&oe=utf-8


As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
early". No reason to be sneaky about it.


But Ed, you didn't steal the time. You announced your intentions, no one made or asked you to stay, and you left. That isn't the same thing at all. In this instance, no doubt you were caught up at your job or worked extra as needed to get to that position. Nope, not the same thing.

Really... never took a pen, pencil, a long lunch to run errands without permission, made personal calls at work, went home early after a training conference instead of going back to work for just an hour, etc. Mind you, I am not saying you weren't a stellar employee, but never?


Did it all the time. Every few months I got my oil changed at a shop
about a mile up the road too. My email was always open on my computer.
Never took a pen though. I have better pens that I prefer to use. My
boss, the owner, does not care what I do all day. What he does care
about is the plant running efficiently and profitably.


I have dramatically reduced my problems by going to an all subcontractor model for workers if at all possible. I pay them more than I would an employee, and they manage their own time. Typically, my average worker now is in their mid 40s, and they are trying to get their work done so they can go to another job or go take care of their personal stuff. We agree on a price per job (as required by IRS) and I pay more if we miss and it takes longer. But I also let them keep the difference if they finish early.


Yes, I bet they don't goof off when it is their time and money. Easier
to do in construction as opposed to a factory setting unless you go to
piece work.




I actually learned of this concept about 30 years ago when I was still going to small business seminars in the 80s. It helped me quite a bit as I was angry all the time about personal calls at work, missing office supplies, they guys that would sneak in the back of the job when they were 10 minutes late, and all the other stuff. Once I got it through my head that they employees don't think of it as stealing, but rather justify their actions as needed to themselves, I got it.

Robert

Happens in every business. Just part of the cost of doing business,
cheaper than trying to change the morals and habits of the world.

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On Thursday, June 15, 2017 at 9:20:44 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

He's not assuming anything.
He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.


Yep. That's all it was. Seemed like some folks (perhaps reflectively) took it personally.

Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
paycheck.


That's all I ever got where I worked before going back to self employment. You do X, and you get paid X. I never had an employer that embraced me, got to know me as a human being, and shared the joys, triumphs and sorrows of my life with me. I worked, worked hard (to get promoted and more money) and got paid for my efforts.

What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.


You can always tell the difference in attitude of someone who writes the checks from their own pocket, takes on the responsibility for work on a scale that one lawsuit can ruin them, puts their name on legal and binding contracts, someone that has been sued (been sued twice myself, once the judge actually laughed at the plaintiff, the other was found to be without merit), and carries all the responsibility on their own back. Every bit. Personally, I am not complaining about it, it's a lifestyle.

But a lifestyle entirely different from someone that simply manages projects, manages employees and manages themselves. It is easy to spot comments from folks that have not sat in front of their State labor department while they decide how to determine your future as an employer based on the actions of not only yourself, but your employees. You have little or no say as the State labor boards are set up to protect the employees from unfair employment practices, so they make certain assumptions before your hearing even starts.

That being said, I guess it has made me a real dick. I pay about 20% more than the prevailing wage to get the guys I want to work for me. They hate that, of course. I am paying a guy that has some rough times every single day, not once a week. A PITA, no doubt.

Today, one of the guys that has been with me for a while was on the verge of a breakdown. Going through a nasty divorce and probably getting lesser custody of his kids, he is in awful shape. So I paid him $20 an hour to drive me around on my rounds today, bought him a great lunch at a favorite Mexican food joint, filled his truck up, and when his battery was dying at the end of the day (he was too embarrassed to tell me something else was wrong) I had him pull into Walmart on the way back to the shop and I bought him a battery.

I can't tell you the animosity that starts with employees. I can do that now because I only have him, no one else to use the nine year old voice and say to me "Mike gets to do that, and I can't. That's not fair".

It is foolish and shows tremendous lack of responsible managerial skill to think you can sit and judge each employee according to your own set set of rules and metrics of achievement. Again, folks that say that haven't sat in front of an board of inquiry from by the State to to determine why some employees get preferential treatment. Go ahead and try to explain how you like one worker better than another using any criteria.

In 35 years of employing people, I got serious about following the exact rules of the State when I had my one and only grievance filed with the State. That was in the mid 80s. I went to every single class on employee management the State offered, and took paid classes in Human Resource Management as well as writing employee handbooks. So one grievance FILED since the mid 80s.

My model employee is this guy, and I have a few (not a lot!): We start at 8, so he shows up 10 minutes early, says his hellos to the guys, and gets his tools out and goes to work at8 or shortly after. Works independently, and I know if he is stopped he is just taking a breath or getting some water or Gatorade. Stop time about 10 minutes, usually around mid morning. Stops for lunch, repeats the morning schedule. If not working with them, I will bring them something cold to drink in the afternoon and get a handle on progress and any material needs. Repeat the next day.

If we finish a job a day or two early, I usually buy everyone lunch.

I don't know how old the folks here are that responded are, but their chest thumping about me caring when they **** is pure baloney. It does have the stench of a sensitive young man's hyperbole, though.

Maybe it is an age difference thing. My jobs are pretty happy places and the guys get along great. The age factor though... no youngsters. The youngest guy I have working for me right now (the aforementioned future divorcee) is 39. The rest that I have from time to time are anywhere from mid 50s to mid 60s. I guess maybe a bit old school, they don't expect any special consideration, just a fair shake. Still, if I don't watch them, the tend to round their time cards up a bit if they can. Strangely, that's OK, but not so much for me if I round their time in my favor.

That's the way of it. I will continue to work to find the best guys that I can and treat them as fairly as possible. But like MIKE said, it has to be a two way street.

Robert
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In article , says...

On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM,
wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever

take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
dropped to the same as everyone else.

Revenge was his. A new tool came along and he asked for help to set it
up. The engineer that designed it could not make the part. He had the
toolmaker come and he could not get it to run either, then they went to
lunch after investing a day plus of their time. Ten minutes later,
Richard put a perfect part on my desk and said "can I go to the
storeroom for gloves?" Yes, you can, any time you want.

I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
early". No reason to be sneaky about it.


https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-r...random-but-it-
ups-your-productivity

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On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM,
wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever

take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference was over early?

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently. An
example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy working for me
that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took a walk to the
storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My boss thought he was a
screw off and confined him to his machine; no more trips to the
storeroom for supplies. Before that, he turned out 50% to 100% more at
the end of the day than anyone else. Tied to his machine, his output
dropped to the same as everyone else.


I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a goof off
but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people do screw you on
time, but what counts is what is done at the end of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm leaving
early". No reason to be sneaky about it.


https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-r...random-but-it-
ups-your-productivity

Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day. It
is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check down at
the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of breaks make more
widgets per day than the ones that never leave their work station.

Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.
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On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , says...

On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM,
wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever

take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
was over early?

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
everyone else.


I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.


https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-r...random-but-it-


ups-your-productivity

Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
work station.

Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.


When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.

I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
the type of people referred to in that article.

I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
the type of work in this article is completely different from
construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
mostly irrelevant to this discussion.

It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
attitudes and work ethic.

If some guy busting his ass all day working landscaping in the brutal
heat figures out he can go work a cash register in air conditioning for
the same or better money, that's one replaced fast food worker who
likely doesn't have the kind of attitude nor work ethic it takes to bust
your butt doing landscaping.

But that's a tangent and we never go off on tangents in here. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply



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On 6/16/17 12:09 AM, wrote:
My model employee is this guy, and I have a few (not a lot!): We
start at 8, so he shows up 10 minutes early, says his hellos to the
guys, and gets his tools out and goes to work at8 or shortly after.
Works independently, and I know if he is stopped he is just taking a
breath or getting some water or Gatorade. Stop time about 10
minutes, usually around mid morning. Stops for lunch, repeats the
morning schedule. If not working with them, I will bring them
something cold to drink in the afternoon and get a handle on progress
and any material needs. Repeat the next day.


I have a helper like that who I unfortunately lost to a full time gig.

He's ready and raring to go. If there's a lull in activity, he's
looking for something else to do. If we show up to a project site and
I'm speaking with the client, he's not standing around waiting for
orders, he just starts unloading or unraveling extension cords, etc.
He's always looking ahead to what can be done when the current task is
finished.

He's the kind of guy I buy lunches for and he actually told me I had to
I had to stop doing it. He's the kind of guy I "round up" for when it
comes time to pay. He's actually told me on a couple occasions that I
paid him too much. I think he just knows, now, that I like to tip. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

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In article , says...

On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM,
wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
was over early?

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
everyone else.


I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-r...random-but-it-


ups-your-productivity

Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
work station.

Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.


When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.

I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
the type of people referred to in that article.

I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
the type of work in this article is completely different from
construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
mostly irrelevant to this discussion.

It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
attitudes and work ethic.


I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
big things that cost them the election.

If some guy busting his ass all day working landscaping in the brutal
heat figures out he can go work a cash register in air conditioning for
the same or better money, that's one replaced fast food worker who
likely doesn't have the kind of attitude nor work ethic it takes to bust
your butt doing landscaping.

But that's a tangent and we never go off on tangents in here. :-)



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On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 22:57:25 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article , says...

On 6/16/17 10:14 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/16/2017 6:15 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article ,
says...

On 6/14/2017 11:29 PM,
wrote:

Your employess steal time from you. All of them do. Ever take
an extra cigarette break? Ever make personal calls on company
time? Ever take a sick day when you weren't? Ever sneak off
early to see your kid play a soccer game, go to his band
recital, a baseball game, or anything else? How many times did
you take exactly one hour for lunch? How many days did you
say, "well,we gave it our all tomorrow, but I'm beat, so let's
go home and hit it hard tomorrow". Ever
take a pad, a pencil, a pen, or exaggerate your lunch/entertainment
bill? Go home and take the rest of the day off when a conference
was over early?

All? I disagree, though some do. Everyone works differently.
An example, some years go I was a supervisor and had a guy
working for me that ran a tubing bending machine. He often took
a walk to the storeroom, took the extra smoke break, etc. My
boss thought he was a screw off and confined him to his machine;
no more trips to the storeroom for supplies. Before that, he
turned out 50% to 100% more at the end of the day than anyone
else. Tied to his machine, his output dropped to the same as
everyone else.

I have a half dozen stories of people that are perceived as a
goof off but vastly outproduce everyone else. Yes, some people
do screw you on time, but what counts is what is done at the end
of the day.

As for myself, I never sneaked off early. I just said "I'm
leaving early". No reason to be sneaky about it.

https://www.themuse.com/advice/the-r...random-but-it-


ups-your-productivity

Supports my story. You cannot work at 100% every minute of the day.
It is the amount of work done in the end that counts. Just check
down at the Widget Factory. Some of the people taking a lot of
breaks make more widgets per day than the ones that never leave their
work station.

Oh, forgot to mention, I also took a short nap most afternoons too.


When you filter out all the extraneous opinion, personal ideology, and
bias based on negative experiences, you're BOTH right.

I think it's very clear that Robert isn't painting with a broad brush.
Setting aside those that outright steal physical items, he's talking
about slackers and workers who try to get as much as they can for as
little as possible. We've all seen these people and anyone who's worked
in any kind of civil service knows this type very well. These are not
the type of people referred to in that article.

I'm guessing Robert has employed quite of few of those 52/17 types.
Those are the type of employees you attract by paying more. Even though
the type of work in this article is completely different from
construction (which I can personally attest to), those differences are
mostly irrelevant to this discussion.

It's about attitude and work ethic. This is why the whole $15 minimum
wage thing is such a joke. The people asking for it are too stupid to
realize that if their employee starts paying $15/hr., most of them will
be out of a job because the higher pay will attract workers with better
attitudes and work ethic.


I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
big things that cost them the election.


Stop making sense! Democrats will never understand even the most
common variety.

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On 6/16/2017 8:18 PM, wrote:

Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
****. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.


He's not assuming anything.


Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.

He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
paycheck.


But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
everyone else.

What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.


They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
time lost. It happens.

You sound like a moron.


What seems to be lost here is that people actually have control over
their life and business.

Don't like your boss? Quit
Don't like your employee? Fire him/her

Most of us have put up with a tyrant boss for a time but smart people
make an exit plan and execute it.

I'm sure we all have some stories on both sides for employer/employee
abuse. I know of a company that pays at least 20% more than others to
its supervisors. Why? The money is the only reason they put up with
the crap they have to deal with.

If an employee steals, fire him. State laws vary, but usually, an "at
will" employee can be let go at any time for any reason. Some employers
will put up with some nonsense as the employee has exceptional skills.
Your choice to make.

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On Sat, 17 Jun 2017 11:43:00 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 6/16/2017 8:18 PM, wrote:

Employees are people too. I certainly wouldn't work for an employer
who assumed I was stealing from him every time I went to take a
****. The employer/employee relationship is a two-way street.


He's not assuming anything.


Wrong. He stated that they *are*. They all are.

He said he's had employees steal from him and gave examples.
Yes, it's a two way street. You do the work required and go home with a
paycheck.


But if I'm treated like a dog, I'll find another master. ...as will
everyone else.

What if the employer is cheating you of the time you worked? You'd be
singing a different story. Geez, you sound like a millennial.


They do. Constantly. FOrced overtime. Vacations canceled. Vacation
time lost. It happens.

You sound like a moron.


What seems to be lost here is that people actually have control over
their life and business.

Don't like your boss? Quit
Don't like your employee? Fire him/her


It's not lost on me! That's exactly my philosophy. My employer needs
me as much as I need him. Any other relationship is broken.

Most of us have put up with a tyrant boss for a time but smart people
make an exit plan and execute it.

I'm sure we all have some stories on both sides for employer/employee
abuse. I know of a company that pays at least 20% more than others to
its supervisors. Why? The money is the only reason they put up with
the crap they have to deal with.

If an employee steals, fire him. State laws vary, but usually, an "at
will" employee can be let go at any time for any reason.


Or none.

Some employers
will put up with some nonsense as the employee has exceptional skills.
Your choice to make.


Precisely.


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On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 10:31:14 PM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

Here you go again arguing for the sake of arguing.
Some times you have great input an information and other times you just
argue for the sake of arguing with nothing of value to contribute.


-MIKE-


Wow, this has gone from surreal to bizarre. Who is treating employees like dogs? Who has a "master/slave" relationship with their employees? Who is abusing their employees with their tyrannical ways?

I showed one of my good guys that has been with me for a few years now this post and he laughed his ass off. He immediately started with "hey dude... I wanna go get an oil change this afternoon while I am on the clock. Can I get you to pay for it too?" and "Robert, since it is so hot, I need a nap now and then during the day. You OK with that?" Now the joke across the boys is that they are all abused by me and I owe them lunch.

Due to the extreme near hysterics here, I ran some of it by my fellow business owners, and they all got a pretty good laugh. None took any of it seriously.

In my end of business, construction, it must be quite different than the other business many here have participated in. No doubt with the surfeit if retirees, the business model of today is different than even 20 years ago, making it hard for some to understand.

Today's employee/employer relationship in the world of small business is more of a group effort, with the owner being at the front of the parade. Most small business owners feel like they work for their employees to some extent, and none feel like they run the business. With the State employee commission ready to hear ANY grievance, television attorneys (here, anyway) screaming for you to call them if you feel you have been wronged in any way conceivable by your employer, the stringent NLRB rules that are an umbrella for any state/federal guidelines that must be followed, the increased burden put on businesses for reporting employee activity and the need to keep accurate records on each employee in case any of the above examples are off a tick, no one I know feels as an employer that they work for themselves.

I will agree that everyone here is would be the kind of employee that someone would consider a gift from on high, you might be surprised at how you are treated in today's business world.

If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have gone to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the military, the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies that were big in their day. 30 years, and out. Then (having most likely achieved all I wanted) I could sit back and joint the lecture on how the world works from a cocoon of security firmly wrapped around me at all times. Sure, I might have missed a promotion, been wrongfully fired (but eventually rehired) and had the other travails that plague corporate folks. Some of my friends have done that, but that wasn't my path, and truthfully, I am no sorry. What gets me to think about these things is that there are indeed plenty of people that sleep during the work day, shop, walk off early when they want, run personal errands during the work day, and generally do as they please while getting paid. I feel like an idiot for not signing up.

I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty Draconian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is Amazon, Toyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here, between Toyota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So everyone here knows someone that works at one of those.

Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:

- you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No excuses (car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to work anyway, wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my homework, etc.) go undocumented. Excessive documented absence means termination

- no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the afternoon

- you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in the afternoon

- you must take lunch every day

- no sleeping during your shift

- no eating during your shift (unless medically needed such as a glucose tablet for diabetics)

- no personal errands while on the company clock

- no cell phone used unless on break or lunch

- no unauthorized time off

- sick days are valid only if the employee calls in. Excessive absence may require proof of doctor visit

- you must take all Federal holidays

- no unauthorized overtime (recent rules mean that even salaried people cannot work more than the Federal mandate even under salary)

- you have to maintain a clean appearance, observe personal hygiene, and dress appropriately (each has their own dress code)

They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff, winnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is an indicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.

All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that wouldn't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't be that stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personally.

My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late. Just wanted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my old lady.... she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her ****..."

So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a couple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to pick up the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today so she can't pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father, I should pay him for the whole day, as well as they days he takes his kids to the doctor because his non working wife doesn't want to, or has to take a 3 hour lunch to resolve something at the kid's school. But he will get in around 5 1/2 hours today as I don't pay for wife fights. By Friday will have forgotten all about it, and will wonder why his check isn't full. He had a short week last week, and I gave him a chance to make up the hours on Saturday, but since he and his wife are fighting he decided to pass. Then he shows up late today.

I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a typical worker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets here, but when distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.

When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to me, they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are reliable and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own me. I have a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as they get a few side jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash (no doubt unreported) and they call me when they run out of work. Great guys, good workers, a pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really crappy business men.

One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the same job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work fast, but not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only a 30 minute lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he doesn't sleep at work, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he business day leaving his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is important, and understands his responsibilities. I love having him around.

As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot imagine what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the correct term for small business employee/employer relations in my mind). I cannot imagine the job site rolling along with all of us working, tools in hand (including me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we were counting on saunter up the job when he felt like it. I did find an employee sleeping in my company truck once after he had gone missing for about an hour. That didn't go well. For me.

Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat. You can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my guys anytime over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are pretty happy as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back them as needed.. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap after I read some of this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's "help! help! I'm being repressed!"

Now they have all seen this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtYU87QNjPw

And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents while being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile on the guys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they will stop asking me if they can go get an oil change during the day. They are having waaayyy to much fun with this.

They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my decisions; if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it. If they make a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their phone for the best oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own mistakes. MY next perfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily mistakes, but I make up for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.

I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they have 30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like then.

Robert
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On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:57:31 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
big things that cost them the election.


Seriously, how true is that? While there seem to be more lazy, uninspired lazy worker than ever before, there are some that really want to work. And once they get the hang of it and decide it is a good thing, they want to do it. They found this out in the Great Depression; the fact that """at that time""" most people wanted a sense of accomplishment, and that hard work wasn't beneath them. They liked the even exchange of a full day's work for a full day's pay. It worked well back then, but it was a different ethos. People lined up at the CCC, WPA, etc. to get a chance at a road building, timber management, or other manual labor infrastructure jobs.

I am probably living in fairy land, but I think there are some of those folks still around that would excel in a system of fair pay for a fair shake at work. Minimum wage was never meant to be a livable wage, it was never meant to be wage to use to raise a family after you receive the rest of your govt bennies. Those jobs were to teach you how to work, teach you the importance of being a team player, and to teach you the relationship of the employer/employee. They were never about earning enough when flipping burgers that you could earn enough to raise a few kids,live in a neighborhood of your choice,etc. You can't do it on $15 now, but that is the way it was sold by the govt.

I knew this would happen, and my fellow business owner remember me talking about this the first time $15 came up about 3 years ago. Business will find a way around the $15, and it will be fine. And it is.

My amigo in the food service industry has reported back to me that they are getting in more prepackaged food to sell than ever before. I tasted his new samples of guacamole salad, carne guisada and barracho beans and they were great! So for every one that buys enough of his product (which is quite good) they will be able to fire at least a couple of prep guys in the kitchen and use the premade products. A couple of tweaks (more garlic, celantro, etc.) and it is their own recipe. So the business owner (not the worker, his family, or the community) will benefit from this. Likewise, he employer has two employees he doesn't have to manage or worry about.

Cost saving innovations driven by the market have some long reaching implications. Now several restaurants give you discounts if you order by app. Better still, several restaurants now that have limited menus are asking you to order with a tablet on the table, no wait person! How many jobs is the employer able to cut? Say at Outback (where I saw this) they were able to lose 3 full time waitresses, you could now shift that pay over to busboys and dishwashers to make that $15 work.

But perhaps not for long. There is already a dishwashing unit available that will sort and stack plates, and put the silverware in a hopper to be washed. ONE busboy can now clean a restaurant, and one guy can unload the dishwasher if they have this machine.

The whole $15 an hour minimum seems like a good idea, but we will have to see. No one will want high school kids that are learning just to come to work at $15 an hour. When businesses find out what they can save by updating equipment, procedures, etc., they will pay $20 to a reliable dishwasher that can operate their machine because they were able to get rid of 2-3 other jobs entirely.

Be sure about this; McDonalds is used to getting a black eye over their employee treatment for issues real or imagined. Their long studies that including tinkering with their own menus have revealed that people will not give up cheap, fast food as a "go to" choice. So something has to give. Higher wages with less employment, or higher wages and higher food costs. McDonalds experiments reveal that people want it both ways, but in the end the don't want to pay $X for a hamburger. They want cheap and fsst, and oh... don't forget to take care of the worker after you take care of me first.

Good post, J.

Robert
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On 6/19/2017 12:21 PM, wrote:



If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have gone to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the military, the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies that were big in their day. 30 years, and out.


A policeman here in CT was able to retire before some questionable
disciplinary situation. He is 54 years old and his pension is $127,000
a year. You may be right.




I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty Draconian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is Amazon, Toyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here, between Toyota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So everyone here knows someone that works at one of those.

Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:

- you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No excuses (car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to work anyway, wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my homework, etc.) go undocumented. Excessive documented absence means termination

- no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the afternoon

- you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in the afternoon

- you must take lunch every day

some rules snipped. . .
In a large company those rules are common and really, the break and
bathroom time is reasonable. I know places with less breaks.



They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff, winnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is an indicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.

All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that wouldn't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't be that stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personally.


That is why I never worked for a company like that, especially in some
of the non-thinking-robotic jobs. I'd go nuts after an hour on an
assembly line or processing paperwork over and over. .



My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late. Just wanted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my old lady... she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her ****..."

So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a couple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to pick up the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today so she can't pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father, I should pay him for the whole day,


Does he do a day's work? He is best paid by the job rather than the
hour. This is a $xxx job and has to be done by nest Tuesday.




I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a typical worker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets here, but when distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.

When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to me, they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are reliable and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own me. I have a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as they get a few side jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash (no doubt unreported) and they call me when they run out of work. Great guys, good workers, a pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really crappy business men.


Yes, that sounds ideal. What if he need an oil change?


One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the same job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work fast, but not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only a 30 minute lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he doesn't sleep at work, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he business day leaving his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is important, and understands his responsibilities. I love having him around.


So you see my point. He gets his work for a full day done is 6 hours.
You don't jump on a guy like that if he takes an extra smoke break.
Maybe if he took a short nap he could get even more done.



As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot imagine what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the correct term for small business employee/employer relations in my mind). I cannot imagine the job site rolling along with all of us working, tools in hand (including me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we were counting on saunter up the job when he felt like it. I did find an employee sleeping in my company truck once after he had gone missing for about an hour. That didn't go well. For me.


Depends on what they are doing. If a crew is needed for a particular
function, yes, they have to be there to work together. But if I'm
painting the ceiling i don't give a damn when the plumber in the next
room takes his nap.




Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat. You can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my guys anytime over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are pretty happy as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back them as needed. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap after I read some of this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's "help! help! I'm being repressed!"


Good. Then it does not matter what the rest of us do.


Now they have all seen this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtYU87QNjPw

And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents while being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile on the guys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they will stop asking me if they can go get an oil change during the day. They are having waaayyy to much fun with this.


I never asked, I just went. No one ever tracked my time. At the end of
the month I got the same pay check. Always got a nice bonus at the end
of the year too.



They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my decisions; if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it. If they make a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their phone for the best oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own mistakes. MY next perfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily mistakes, but I make up for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.

I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they have 30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like then.

Robert


I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
jobs. Total about 15 employees.

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On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 09:50:53 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Friday, June 16, 2017 at 9:57:31 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

I thought most of the people asking for it were ivory tower do-gooders who
if they ever broke a sweat in their lives did it on the tennis court. It's
one of the things the Democrats just plain don't get. The fix for the
problem isn't to raise the minimum wage, it's to bring enough decent jobs
back that people don't _have_ to work for minimum wage. That's one of the
big things that cost them the election.


Seriously, how true is that? While there seem to be more lazy, uninspired lazy worker than ever before, there are some that really want to work. And once they get the hang of it and decide it is a good thing, they want to do it. They found this out in the Great Depression; the fact that """at that time""" most people wanted a sense of accomplishment, and that hard work wasn't beneath them. They liked the even exchange of a full day's work for a full day's pay. It worked well back then, but it was a different ethos. People lined up at the CCC, WPA, etc. to get a chance at a road building, timber management, or other manual labor infrastructure jobs.


How many of today's workers were around during the Depression? How
many learned from that experience?

I am probably living in fairy land, but I think there are some of those folks still around that would excel in a system of fair pay for a fair shake at work. Minimum wage was never meant to be a livable wage, it was never meant to be wage to use to raise a family after you receive the rest of your govt bennies. Those jobs were to teach you how to work, teach you the importance of being a team player, and to teach you the relationship of the employer/employee. They were never about earning enough when flipping burgers that you could earn enough to raise a few kids,live in a neighborhood of your choice,etc. You can't do it on $15 now, but that is the way it was sold by the govt.


If you're that good, you would be worth more than $15/hr. People can
only be paid what they can bring in, in economic benefit to their
employer. If they're doing $30 worth of work, they can make more. I
they only do $5 worth of work and the minimum wage is $15, they have
no job.

I knew this would happen, and my fellow business owner remember me talking about this the first time $15 came up about 3 years ago. Business will find a way around the $15, and it will be fine. And it is.


Businesses will be fine. Get used to dealing with kiosks in fast food
restaurants, though. There won't be any workers. High school kids
will be unemployable. There will be no working one's way through
college, either. Get used to even more crushed under the burden of
college debt.

My amigo in the food service industry has reported back to me that they are getting in more prepackaged food to sell than ever before. I tasted his new samples of guacamole salad, carne guisada and barracho beans and they were great! So for every one that buys enough of his product (which is quite good) they will be able to fire at least a couple of prep guys in the kitchen and use the premade products. A couple of tweaks (more garlic, celantro, etc.) and it is their own recipe. So the business owner (not the worker, his family, or the community) will benefit from this. Likewise, he employer has two employees he doesn't have to manage or worry about.


Sure. More jobs gone.

Cost saving innovations driven by the market have some long reaching implications. Now several restaurants give you discounts if you order by app. Better still, several restaurants now that have limited menus are asking you to order with a tablet on the table, no wait person! How many jobs is the employer able to cut? Say at Outback (where I saw this) they were able to lose 3 full time waitresses, you could now shift that pay over to busboys and dishwashers to make that $15 work.


Sure. More jobs gone.

But perhaps not for long. There is already a dishwashing unit available that will sort and stack plates, and put the silverware in a hopper to be washed. ONE busboy can now clean a restaurant, and one guy can unload the dishwasher if they have this machine.


See above.

The whole $15 an hour minimum seems like a good idea, but we will have to see. No one will want high school kids that are learning just to come to work at $15 an hour. When businesses find out what they can save by updating equipment, procedures, etc., they will pay $20 to a reliable dishwasher that can operate their machine because they were able to get rid of 2-3 other jobs entirely.


Wrong. See above.

Be sure about this; McDonalds is used to getting a black eye over their employee treatment for issues real or imagined. Their long studies that including tinkering with their own menus have revealed that people will not give up cheap, fast food as a "go to" choice. So something has to give. Higher wages with less employment, or higher wages and higher food costs. McDonalds experiments reveal that people want it both ways, but in the end the don't want to pay $X for a hamburger. They want cheap and fsst, and oh... don't forget to take care of the worker after you take care of me first.


McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
me it's just more leftist tripe.
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On Monday, June 19, 2017 at 8:46:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Not sure whether you were agreeing with my findings and opinions or relying on some sardonic observation in your comments to carry your thoughts. Reading of current market trends and predictions of the effects of a $15 dollar wage is not a good idea. My observations aren't unique, and certainly not original. Nor are the long term predictions for the ramifications of a $15 minimum wage.

I have not dog in that fight and at this point don't really have the time to worry about what the politicians trying to recreate The Great Society are up to. Minimum wage workers only represent my cleanup guys and overall labor, which in my end of construction only represents a small part of my overall job cost. They are easily passed to the consumer by me, so no harm, no foul.


McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
me it's just more leftist tripe.


Guess it's easier to label, dismiss, and call names to things you are unaware or simply ignorant of. As of this time last year, it is reported that nearly 20% of McDonalds stores are corporate stores. This may be at odds with your own research, but I will take Motley Fool's piece on this subject over your research. No offense, and if you have any information that McDonald's owns no stores, I will contact MF myself with your findings.

https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...are-owned.aspx

McDonalds has spent millions using some of their own stores are test beds for labor relations, product placement, product, training, etc. They regularly release their findings to the public, and their findings can be anywhere from mundane to nearly incredible depending on the subject matter. While they are currently trying to get the franchisees to take the whole burden of overhead on themselves, they haven't done it yet.

Robert


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On 6/20/2017 1:54 AM, wrote:



McDonalds is not the employer. Their franchises employ the minimum
wage workers. I can't imagine that every one is the same. Seems to
me it's just more leftist tripe.


Guess it's easier to label, dismiss, and call names to things you are unaware or simply ignorant of. As of this time last year, it is reported that nearly 20% of McDonalds stores are corporate stores. This may be at odds with your own research, but I will take Motley Fool's piece on this subject over your research. No offense, and if you have any information that McDonald's owns no stores, I will contact MF myself with your findings.

https://www.fool.com/investing/gener...are-owned.aspx

McDonalds has spent millions using some of their own stores are test beds for labor relations, product placement, product, training, etc. They regularly release their findings to the public, and their findings can be anywhere from mundane to nearly incredible depending on the subject matter. While they are currently trying to get the franchisees to take the whole burden of overhead on themselves, they haven't done it yet.

Robert


I read recently that there is a movement to make McDonalds responsible
for wages and labor compliance issues for all stores, including
franchisees. Seems wrong to me.
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On Tuesday, June 20, 2017 at 8:13:17 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I read recently that there is a movement to make McDonalds responsible
for wages and labor compliance issues for all stores, including
franchisees. Seems wrong to me.


From that article and something I saw on Bloomberg, McD's said they were wanting to have around 5% (it's a goal, anyway) McD's ownership of their own so they can continue to use the restaurants as test beds.

But if the government is looking to make McD's responsible for labor relations, labor management, wages as per regional norms, etc., etc., that is indeed just plain wrong. If McD's wanted to do the hard part they would be buying back their stores, not selling them.

Robert
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/19/2017 12:21 PM, wrote:



If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't be self employed. I should have
gone to work at a government job, a civil service job, gone to the
military, the public utilities, or even one of the big monster companies
that were big in their day. 30 years, and out.


A policeman here in CT was able to retire before some questionable
disciplinary situation. He is 54 years old and his pension is $127,000
a year. You may be right.




I think the last really large companies that I know that employ pretty
Draconian measures (by this group's standards) for their workforce is
Amazon, Toyota, and for new hires, USAA. All have a huge presence here,
between Toyota and USAA alone they have over 30,000 workers. So
everyone here knows someone that works at one of those.

Here's the nasty rule of employee law they use on their employees:

- you must be at your station WORKING when your shift starts. No
excuses (car broke down, grandmother #6 died this morning but I cam to
work anyway, wife sick, kid sick, ate something bad, dog ate my
homework, etc.) go undocumented. Excessive documented absence means termination

- no more than 2 bathroom breaks in the morning, and nor more than 2 in the afternoon

- you have one break you must take of 15 minutes in the morning, and one in the afternoon

- you must take lunch every day

some rules snipped. . .
In a large company those rules are common and really, the break and
bathroom time is reasonable. I know places with less breaks.



They all pay low to start, wanting to separate the wheat from the chaff,
winnowing out the folks that don't want to be there. Your commitment is
an indicator of your earnest attitude to be a good employee.

All that sounds great to me! But I can see that for most here, that
wouldn't fly for a second. And as an owner of a small business, I can't
be that stringent because employees take everything (like here) very, very personally.


That is why I never worked for a company like that, especially in some
of the non-thinking-robotic jobs. I'd go nuts after an hour on an
assembly line or processing paperwork over and over. .



My painter called this morning... "Robert, I am running a few late.
Just wanted you to know so you can wait for me. Got into again with my
old lady... she always waits until I am walking out the door to start her ****..."

So he is 30 minutes late. Blows my morning schedule up. He works for a
couple of hours and says, "hey, I will need to get off early today to
pick up the kids from school. My Mom has a doctor's appointment today
so she can't pick them up". He thinks since he is a responsible father,
I should pay him for the whole day,


Does he do a day's work? He is best paid by the job rather than the
hour. This is a $xxx job and has to be done by nest Tuesday.




I would say with the last 20 years or so under my belt, this is a
typical worker. His upside is that he works like a demon when he gets
here, but when distracted makes as many mistakes as daily progress. So typical.

When I get a good employee, I treat them like gold. They don't lie to
me, they take care of my tools, they work hard for a full day, they are
reliable and show up on time, they have pride in their work... they own
me. I have a couple like that. They don't work for me full time as
they get a few side jobs, the go off and do those for a handful of cash
(no doubt unreported) and they call me when they run out of work. Great
guys, good workers, a pleasure to have on your job, but lucky me, really
crappy business men.


Yes, that sounds ideal. What if he need an oil change?


One of them gets more done in 6 hours than anyone I have had doing the
same job gets done in 8. He has pretty bad health, so he doesn't work
fast, but not a wasted stroke from him and he never takes a break, only
a 30 minute lunch. I don't mind paying him for a full day. But he
doesn't sleep at work, he doesn't walk off to do personal crap during he
business day leaving his coworkers in the lurch, either. He knows he is
important, and understands his responsibilities. I love having him around.


So you see my point. He gets his work for a full day done is 6 hours.
You don't jump on a guy like that if he takes an extra smoke break.
Maybe if he took a short nap he could get even more done.



As you guys have said that I would be an ass to work for, I cannot
imagine what it would be like to have you guys as co workers (the
correct term for small business employee/employer relations in my mind).
I cannot imagine the job site rolling along with all of us working,
tools in hand (including me) what my reaction would be to have a guy we
were counting on saunter up the job when he felt like it. I did find an
employee sleeping in my company truck once after he had gone missing for
about an hour. That didn't go well. For me.


Depends on what they are doing. If a crew is needed for a particular
function, yes, they have to be there to work together. But if I'm
painting the ceiling i don't give a damn when the plumber in the next
room takes his nap.




Nah... I think only -MIKE- gets it because he is rowing the same boat.
You can only work with the workforce that is available. I'll take my
guys anytime over the rest of the crap. I think too, my employees are
pretty happy as they know what is expected of them, and that I will back
them as needed. They sure have been enjoying giving me a lot of crap
after I read some of this to them. One even conjured up Monty Python's
"help! help! I'm being repressed!"


Good. Then it does not matter what the rest of us do.


Now they have all seen this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtYU87QNjPw

And I am listening as of last week to bad replicas of English accents
while being accused of "repression". At least this thread puts a smile
on the guys faces when they think about it. Hopefully this week they
will stop asking me if they can go get an oil change during the day.
They are having waaayyy to much fun with this.


I never asked, I just went. No one ever tracked my time. At the end of
the month I got the same pay check. Always got a nice bonus at the end
of the year too.



They are a confident group, and should be. I stand by all of my
decisions; if I tell them to do something wrong, I pay them to fix it.
If they make a mistake and it wasn't because they were shopping on their
phone for the best oil change deal, I will pay them to fix their own
mistakes. MY next perfect day will be my first one. I don't make daily
mistakes, but I make up for that by making some really big ones, or several a day.

I would really love to hear the collective's take on things when they
have 30 years of being a check writing employer. Wonder what it would be like then.

Robert


I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
jobs. Total about 15 employees.



I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you think
a bit longer and harder about signing that check.

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On 6/21/2017 8:52 AM, Leon wrote:

I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
jobs. Total about 15 employees.



I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you think
a bit longer and harder about signing that check.


Authorizing the check to be written directly affected my bonus and
profit sharing. I'd agree in a mega-corporation, not the case here.
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On 6/21/2017 8:24 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 6/21/2017 8:52 AM, Leon wrote:

I did not personally write the checks but I did have budgets for labor,
material, utilities. Gas can run $30,000, electric $15,000. I maintained
them rather well over 27 years. I've spent some time with the labor
board too. Never lost. We also used temp labor for some unskilled
jobs. Total about 15 employees.



I signed the checks for a business but even then it was not the same as
signing checks for my own small business. When it is your money you
think
a bit longer and harder about signing that check.


Authorizing the check to be written directly affected my bonus and
profit sharing.


Mine too. But with "my" business I also put more thought into things
other than business related. Vacation this year? Lots more goes into
this when using my money, do I want to eat this week, can I wait to pay
a bill until next week?

It makes a big difference when some one else is spending "your" money.

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