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Default will they stand behind the tools still


birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete mediocrity


i think sears really made out well selling that for close to a billion
dollars


hf has been and will continue to bite hard into that market space

the same model as ikea cheap and usable

and crappy








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On 1/15/2017 1:34 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete mediocrity


i think sears really made out well selling that for close to a billion
dollars


hf has been and will continue to bite hard into that market space

the same model as ikea cheap and usable

and crappy



Don't know if you realize it. But sears/craftsman has been selling the
evolve line which is HF stuff. But at a higher price. Sometimes much higher.


--
Jeff

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Default will they stand behind the tools still

Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?



i think sears really made out well selling that for close to a billion
dollars


hf has been and will continue to bite hard into that market space

the same model as ikea cheap and usable

and crappy









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On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor old
guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has legal
obligations.


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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:18:39 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor old
guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has legal
obligations.

Depends what they bought. In many cases a company buys the right to
use the name, and the designs, and possibly other assetts of the
company, but not the company itself. In the case of Craftsman, I'm
not sure a Craftsman "company" exists. I believe it is just a "brand"
owned up until the sale, by Sears.




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On 1/15/2017 4:18 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor old
guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has legal
obligations.


Maybe some legal eagle can weigh in on this.

If B&D bought the manufacturing arm (there isn't one, AFAIK) or the
sales arm, then I think the issue would be moot. The buyer of a
corporation assumes both the assets and liabilities of the corporation.

B&D under that scenario is required to honor the existing warranties but
is not compelled to continue issuing that warranty with new tools any
more than Sears is. Since there did not appear to be any requirement
such as proof of purchase, etc. with Craftsman tools, it might be real
hard for Sears or Black & Decker to back out now other than by coming
out with Craftsman II tools, so marked, but no lifetime warranty.

I would hope that B&D looked at this and said, "let's buy the Craftsman
line if Sears will sell it. It has a sterling reputation and is
profitable. Buying it separately from them will likely cost us more
than what it will go for if K-Mart puts the entire company on the
auction block; and if we're going to spend damn near a Billion dollars
for it, let's keep doing it the way Sears has sold the brand with added
value and not screw it up.

OTOH, if B&D, like Sears did many years before it, only purchased the
exclusive rights (eventually) to produce tools under the Craftsman brand
name, I'm not sure what liability they assume, if any, with regard to
warranties on the preexisting tools sold by Sears.

Calling Perry Mason, calling Perry Mason, please report to
rec.woodworking!





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Default will they stand behind the tools still

Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...

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On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.


I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

The problem here is that there's no "money back", there's just
replacement. What if the tool is no longer available or the new owner
drops it from the line?


--
What if a much of a which of a wind gives the truth to summer's lie?
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Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


I think this is a good issue to work on after you've protected our
social security benefits from possible default.

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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 20:40:07 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


I think this is a good issue to work on after you've protected our
social security benefits from possible default.


And out of left field comes a whistling fast ball.


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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.

Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes
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wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity
If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.
How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...


It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.

Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


I think it is a fair argument that has already been made that the
company with whom the warranty was created no longer exists. If
someone owes you money, and they die, you can't go back to one of the
family members after probate and make a claim. I'm not a lawyer and
don't know the degree to which that analogy is appropriate.

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On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.


I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.


Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


The problem here is that there's no "money back", there's just
replacement. What if the tool is no longer available or the new owner
drops it from the line?


This happen all the time, products being discontinued. Typically
something of equal value is substituted.



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On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.

Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.


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On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.


I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.


Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!

It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.


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On 1/15/2017 8:59 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will
still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity
If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.
How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...


It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.

Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


I think it is a fair argument that has already been made that the
company with whom the warranty was created no longer exists. If
someone owes you money, and they die, you can't go back to one of the
family members after probate and make a claim. I'm not a lawyer and
don't know the degree to which that analogy is appropriate.


That is totally different, going after family members is totally
different unless they were all in business together.
Further, if family members are to inherit from a will, that is very
often subject to happening after the cure of all contractual debts up to
totally liquidating the deceased assets.

For example if you are in your parents will to inherit their home after
their death and there is an outstanding mortgage, you have to pay
off/cure that mortgage before taking possession of that home. Nor are
you obligated to cure that mortgage if you have no interest/desire in
keeping the home. Typically you sell the home and pay off the mortgage
if the home can be sold for more than the outstanding debt and fees.



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On 1/15/2017 7:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


I think this is a good issue to work on after you've protected our
social security benefits from possible default.



I seriously doubt SS will ever default. The government has run out of
money on numerous occasions and elected to go further in debt to
continue business.

The government and or SS will never run out of money, so to speak, it
will simply borrow or circulate more money to pay off debt. This is how
the dollar has been loosing value for decades. Every one pays that debt
by loosing buying power.
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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:


The problem here is that there's no "money back", there's just
replacement. What if the tool is no longer available or the new
owner drops it from the line?


This happen all the time, products being discontinued. Typically
something of equal value is substituted.


That's exactly what happened to my Craftsman tape measure. Last month, I
took it in for warranty replacement, and since Craftsman no longer brands
tape measures, the guy at Sears exchanged it for a 30' Stanley. He did
explain it was a one-time exchange, and the Stanely wasn't covered under
the Craftsman warranty.

Puckdropper
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A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!
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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete mediocrity


If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


Try to make it back. The problem is that there is more than one way
to try.



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On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.


Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!


I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.


Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.





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Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.


Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the
bank saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's
depositors? LOL!


That's why we have FDIC (insurance).


It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when
a company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes,
by law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty
would be one such debt or liability.



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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On 1/15/2017 10:04 PM, Bill wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the
bank saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's
depositors? LOL!


That's why we have FDIC (insurance).


Guess again. FDIC covers the depositors if the bank FAILS. Do you
believe for a moment that if I own the bank and I have $100M on deposit,
that I can sell it to you for $25M, transfer only $50M of the assets to
you and walk away from the table with $75M in my pocket? Can't happen
legally.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when
a company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes,
by law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty
would be one such debt or liability.




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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:45:44 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:59 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will
still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity
If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.
How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...


It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


I think it is a fair argument that has already been made that the
company with whom the warranty was created no longer exists. If
someone owes you money, and they die, you can't go back to one of the
family members after probate and make a claim. I'm not a lawyer and
don't know the degree to which that analogy is appropriate.


That is totally different, going after family members is totally
different unless they were all in business together.
Further, if family members are to inherit from a will, that is very
often subject to happening after the cure of all contractual debts up to
totally liquidating the deceased assets.


I think Bill is right on with his analogy. The bankruptcy, some time
back, was exactly analogous to the probate of a will. The company
died and its assets were bought by another.

For example if you are in your parents will to inherit their home after
their death and there is an outstanding mortgage, you have to pay
off/cure that mortgage before taking possession of that home. Nor are
you obligated to cure that mortgage if you have no interest/desire in
keeping the home. Typically you sell the home and pay off the mortgage
if the home can be sold for more than the outstanding debt and fees.


But someone coming to court with a bill for the new furnace, after
probate, is out of luck. The person is dead and his assets
transferred to someone else. A bankruptcy is much the same.
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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:49:41 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 7:40 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


I think this is a good issue to work on after you've protected our
social security benefits from possible default.



I seriously doubt SS will ever default. The government has run out of
money on numerous occasions and elected to go further in debt to
continue business.


....and when people stop buying the debt, we just buy another tanker of
ink and do QE(N+1).

The government and or SS will never run out of money, so to speak, it
will simply borrow or circulate more money to pay off debt. This is how
the dollar has been loosing value for decades. Every one pays that debt
by loosing buying power.




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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:55:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!


I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.


Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.


Not necessarily. In a banruptcy, the assets may be sold off without
selling the company itself and any liabilities killed with the
business. It's not only the debtors that get screwed.



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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On 1/15/2017 10:04 PM, Bill wrote:
Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the
bank saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's
depositors? LOL!


That's why we have FDIC (insurance).


No, FDIC does not cover that. FDIC covers depositors in the event that
the bank defaults. Bank regulations prevent a bank from buying another
and refusing give the depositors their money.



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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On 1/15/2017 10:19 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:45:44 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:59 PM, Bill wrote:
wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will
still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity
If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.
How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...


It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes

I think it is a fair argument that has already been made that the
company with whom the warranty was created no longer exists. If
someone owes you money, and they die, you can't go back to one of the
family members after probate and make a claim. I'm not a lawyer and
don't know the degree to which that analogy is appropriate.


That is totally different, going after family members is totally
different unless they were all in business together.
Further, if family members are to inherit from a will, that is very
often subject to happening after the cure of all contractual debts up to
totally liquidating the deceased assets.


I think Bill is right on with his analogy. The bankruptcy, some time
back, was exactly analogous to the probate of a will. The company
died and its assets were bought by another.

For example if you are in your parents will to inherit their home after
their death and there is an outstanding mortgage, you have to pay
off/cure that mortgage before taking possession of that home. Nor are
you obligated to cure that mortgage if you have no interest/desire in
keeping the home. Typically you sell the home and pay off the mortgage
if the home can be sold for more than the outstanding debt and fees.


But someone coming to court with a bill for the new furnace, after
probate, is out of luck. The person is dead and his assets
transferred to someone else. A bankruptcy is much the same.


Lein holders have first shot at the assets in Texas. Probate takes time
most, lien holders will have filed before the probate is finalized.



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Default will they stand behind the tools still

In article ,
says...

Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?


What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.


How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...


If they bought the company, i.e. obtained a
majority of the shares of stock, then the
liability with regard to contracts and
guarantees would be unchanged I believe.

However it is common to buy the _assets_ from
the corporation, not the corporation itself,
leaving the corporation cash rich but with no
products, manufacturing facilities, staff or
anything else except cash and liabilities. In
that case the new owners would be under no
obligation to honor warranties, as those
warranties were issued by the corporation, which
still exists. You could sue the corporation but
the courts would tell you to get in line behind
the rest of the creditors.

In the case of Craftsman, it appears that
Craftsman was an asset of Sears, not a
corporation its own right, so any warranty
claims should be against Sears--as long as
there's a Sears store you should be able to walk
in and demand satisfaction, however if they no
longer sell tools there's precious little
satisfaction to be had--they might give you the
cash value of it or something. And if Sears
goes away it's unlikely that you're going to
have any recourse at all.





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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.

Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.

Virtually impossible in 1968/69.
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On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:40:22 -0600, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.


Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.


Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!

It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.

Depends what the new company buys. If they buy the company, they buy
everything. If they buy just the name, or just named assets, they do
not.
They can also buy all assets and liabilities.

The computer manufacturer I formerly worked for went broke, and a
distributor bought all assetts and liabilities for $1, but technically
did NOT buy the corporation.
  #38   Report Post  
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Default will they stand behind the tools still

On 1/15/2017 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:55:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.

Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!


I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.


Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.


Not necessarily. In a banruptcy, the assets may be sold off without
selling the company itself and any liabilities killed with the
business. It's not only the debtors that get screwed.


The conversation is about the sale of Craftsman and the liabilities that
go with it, not bankruptcy.



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In article h5lo7cl6aikmvmihqjfelrl61l30tj8orm@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM,
wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.

Virtually impossible in 1968/69.


What, photocopying packaging? Maybe you didn't
work anywhere that there was a Xerox but a lot
of people did.


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On 1/15/2017 11:06 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM,
wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.

Virtually impossible in 1968/69.


No, Xerox was making photo copiers at least as bar back as 1962. My
dad went to work for Coastal States Gas then and they had "Xerox
Machines"/photo copiers. It was the first time my dad ever used one. I
recall him taking me to work with him on a weekend and showing me.

But I imagine they were few and far in between.

LOL



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