On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 00:22:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article h5lo7cl6aikmvmihqjfelrl61l30tj8orm@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.
Virtually impossible in 1968/69.

What, photocopying packaging? Maybe you didn't
work anywhere that there was a Xerox but a lot
of people did.

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:13:38 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Don't know if you realize it. But sears/craftsman has been selling
the evolve line which is HF stuff. But at a higher price. Sometimes
much higher.

did not know that and did not know about evolve line of tools

now i wonder if sears will continue to sell the tools

i am guessing they will they just won't make them

they will probably make more selling them now then when they made
them

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 13:10:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 00:22:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article h5lo7cl6aikmvmihqjfelrl61l30tj8orm@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.
Virtually impossible in 1968/69.

What, photocopying packaging? Maybe you didn't
work anywhere that there was a Xerox but a lot
of people did.

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:51:40 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:13:38 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Don't know if you realize it. But sears/craftsman has been selling
the evolve line which is HF stuff. But at a higher price. Sometimes
much higher.

did not know that and did not know about evolve line of tools

now i wonder if sears will continue to sell the tools

i am guessing they will they just won't make them

they will probably make more selling them now then when they made
them





Sears NEVER made Craftsman tools. All they did is design (specify) and
sell them. Not a lot will change at Sears as far as Craftsman Tools
is concerned, at the store level.

Even Stanley /Black and Decker doesn't make all of their own tools.
Much of their production is "farmed out" to the far east.

Husky tools are made by Stanley. Stanley also owns MAC tools.
Until 1994 Stanley made much of the Craftsman tool line.
Proto is also made by Stanley and is actually the highest quality
line of tools Stanley makes.
Stanley owns production in Taiwan as well - so technically I guess you
COULD say Stanley produces virtually all of their own tools - but not
necessarily in North America.

They got raked over the coals real good recently for marking toold
"made in America" when they were really "assembled in America fron
Globally Supplied Parts"

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Electric Comet" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 14:13:38 -0500
woodchucker wrote:

Don't know if you realize it. But sears/craftsman has been selling
the evolve line which is HF stuff. But at a higher price. Sometimes
much higher.

did not know that and did not know about evolve line of tools

now i wonder if sears will continue to sell the tools

i am guessing they will they just won't make them

they will probably make more selling them now then when they made
them

They never made them.

Electric Comet wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago

To my mind, it still means something, perhaps more than it should. And,
I suppose, that's what they paid for--a decent amount of "goodwill".






sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:14:51 -0500
"dadiOH" wrote:

They never made them.

this deal just keeps getting better and better for sears

but they sold more than the name

they must be selling the designs and molds and any intellectual
properties

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 23:20:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:55:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.

Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!

I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.

Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.

Not necessarily. In a banruptcy, the assets may be sold off without
selling the company itself and any liabilities killed with the
business. It's not only the debtors that get screwed.

The conversation is about the sale of Craftsman and the liabilities that
go with it, not bankruptcy.

Sure, if Sears continues to sell Craftsman tools, they'll have to
honor their warranty. It doesn't transfer to Stanley, even if they
use the "Craftsman" name (which one would suppose they will).

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:56:14 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 13:10:12 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 00:22:48 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article h5lo7cl6aikmvmihqjfelrl61l30tj8orm@
4ax.com, says...

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:35:15 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 8:46 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 5:12 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor
old guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has
legal obligations.

How do you think that the shareholders of S felt after the bankruptcy
and reorganization?
I would suppose that any legal liability for old tools would have ended
there. The new owner may feel it is in there best interest to maintain
the warranties, but they may also not. My point was that as the new
owner, I think you get to "call the tune", especially on a tools sold
before the reorganization--which represents almost "pure liability" to
you (I am not a lawyer). How about those folks who collect old tools
and turn them in for new ones? They are angle shooters, and, IMO,
everyone deserves protection from people who would seek to profit from
"loopholes" (that are "out of the spirit" of the warranty). S and SHLD
have both treated them more charitably than I would have...



It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to uphold
the warranty.
As far as people taking advantage of the warranty, Craftsman could
simply ask for proof of purchase or a copy of the warranty that they
received.
Except they cannot unilaterally change the requirements for the
warranty, and no "copy of the warranty" was recieved wit the tools at
purchace, other than "lifetime warranty" on the packaging - which I,
for one, have not kept for 48 years over numerous moves and life
changes


Exactly, that would be their out. But I have photo copied packaging
showing the warranty in the even that this comes up. Much easier to do
now than in the past.
Virtually impossible in 1968/69.

What, photocopying packaging? Maybe you didn't
work anywhere that there was a Xerox but a lot
of people did.

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?

On 1/16/2017 6:40 PM, wrote:

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?


TIT and RIT ;!)

On 1/16/2017 7:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/16/2017 6:40 PM, wrote:

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?


TIT and RIT ;!)

But I never checked at a pair of RITS on a woman. Am I missing something?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:37:14 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 23:20:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:55:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.

Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!

I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.

Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.

Not necessarily. In a banruptcy, the assets may be sold off without
selling the company itself and any liabilities killed with the
business. It's not only the debtors that get screwed.

The conversation is about the sale of Craftsman and the liabilities that
go with it, not bankruptcy.

Sure, if Sears continues to sell Craftsman tools, they'll have to
honor their warranty. It doesn't transfer to Stanley, even if they
use the "Craftsman" name (which one would suppose they will).
They will, and so will Stanley. Something better than 90% of
Stanley-Produced mechanics tools carry lifetime warrantees today.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:03:33 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:37:14 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 23:20:59 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 21:55:36 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 1/15/2017 9:40 PM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 1/15/2017 9:33 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 7:16 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 17:48:10 -0600, Leon wrote:

It all has to do with the details of what they buy but unless the
company simply disappears some one is still going to be liable to
uphold
the warranty.

I don't think that's necessarily true, Leon. As someone said, it
depends
on the terms of the sale. I do remember reading about one or two
corporate sales where the seller kept the responsibility for old
warranties but I don't remember the details.

Absolutely and I'm sorry if I did not make that clear. Arbitrarily the
new owner cannot just decide to stop honoring the warranty, it will be
governed by the terms of the agreement/sale. The new owner may or may
not have to honor the new warranty depending on the agreement. That
will/was decided before the sale.

If their, the new owners, acquisition does not require them to honor the
warranty, I suspect that Sears will have to continue to honor the
warranties up to that point.

Sort of like a bank being sold and the banking company selling the bank
saying the new owners don't have to pay the former bank's depositors? LOL!

I suspect this did happen in the past, pre depression era time. But
there are regulations that prevent this and in the case of default, FDIC.



It's one thing when a company goes under, another thing entirely when a
company sells it's interests. The purchasing company also assumes, by
law, the liabilities and debts of that company and the warranty would be
one such debt or liability.

Yes, but the new owner does not necessarily have to assume the liability
on past sales, know as the warranty. But some one does, and that may be
a required acquisition of a third party insurance to cover that detail.

Not necessarily. In a banruptcy, the assets may be sold off without
selling the company itself and any liabilities killed with the
business. It's not only the debtors that get screwed.

The conversation is about the sale of Craftsman and the liabilities that
go with it, not bankruptcy.

Sure, if Sears continues to sell Craftsman tools, they'll have to
honor their warranty. It doesn't transfer to Stanley, even if they
use the "Craftsman" name (which one would suppose they will).
They will, and so will Stanley. Something better than 90% of
Stanley-Produced mechanics tools carry lifetime warrantees today.

I meant, Stanley.

My point is that it's highly unlikely that Stanley bought the
"Craftsman" warranty liability from Sears. Sears is still on the hook
for that, if it means anything at all.

On 1/16/2017 6:55 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 1/16/2017 7:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/16/2017 6:40 PM, wrote:

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?


TIT and RIT ;!)

But I never checked at a pair of RITS on a woman. Am I missing something?


Yeah! Rots of stuff. ;~)

Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:14:51 -0500
"dadiOH" wrote:

They never made them.
this deal just keeps getting better and better for sears

but they sold more than the name

they must be selling the designs and molds and any intellectual
properties


I'll bet if they knew how much interest there was, that they would post
a copy of their contract here! ; ) Maybe the details are public
(but Stanley, B&D is an closed foreign corp, right?)

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:55:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/16/2017 7:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/16/2017 6:40 PM, wrote:

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?


TIT and RIT ;!)

But I never checked at a pair of RITS on a woman. Am I missing something?
I initially typed SPITIT duplicator in place of SPIRIT duplicator

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 21:58:14 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Electric Comet wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:14:51 -0500
"dadiOH" wrote:

They never made them.
this deal just keeps getting better and better for sears

but they sold more than the name

they must be selling the designs and molds and any intellectual
properties

I doubt that Sears has any of the above.

I'll bet if they knew how much interest there was, that they would post
a copy of their contract here! ; ) Maybe the details are public
(but Stanley, B&D is an closed foreign corp, right?)

Sears isn't but your point is right on.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:01:46 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 19:55:23 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 1/16/2017 7:47 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/16/2017 6:40 PM, wrote:

We had Thermofax. The school in 1973 had a spitit duplicator. Try
copying the warranty off the label of a set of tools with that. You
could take a picture. Mabee even a polaroid, which will have faded to
un-readable by now.
Make that spitit duplicater a SPIRIT duplicator.

There's a difference?


TIT and RIT ;!)

But I never checked at a pair of RITS on a woman. Am I missing something?
I initially typed SPITIT duplicator in place of SPIRIT duplicator

Sure, but thread has taken a left turn (right into the gutter ;-).

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.

I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..
"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.
I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.


I think from the perspective of most folks, and myself, "quality" has to
do with how well a tool lives up to doing what it is supposed to do,
without falling apart or breaking along the way. We don't really give a
dern what the specifications say and price has little to do with the
matter either. The tool either satisfies or it doesn't. Admittedly,
I've got a couple of Craftsman tools that were disappointing, out of the
box.

GE buys competition all of the time, take who/what is good and Promise
to upgrade, then several months later - sell the building materials off
and scrap the building. They loose the purchase price, get some this
and that and write off the costs.

Martin

On 1/15/2017 4:18 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/15/2017 3:20 PM, Bill wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
birds of a feather flock together so now craftsman stanley and black
decker will all become equally crappy

but i wonder if the craftsman tools with lifetime guarantee will still
be honored or will they just throw that out and go for complete
mediocrity

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

What you paid for a company has nothing to do with whether you honor old
guarantees/warranties or not.

You may or may not be obligated to honor those warranties.

You are simply the new owner of the company, the company still has legal
obligations.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:26:31 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.

I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.
Sears gave the same specs to Danaher as they gave to Stanley - and
Danaher undercut Stanley on price, getting the contract. The Danaher
manufactured tools likely MEET the spec, but don't excede - while
Stanley likely exceded the specs. Most of the Danaher production is
off-shore - as is a fair amount of Stanley's production.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:15:08 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..
"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.
I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.


I think from the perspective of most folks, and myself, "quality" has to
do with how well a tool lives up to doing what it is supposed to do,
without falling apart or breaking along the way. We don't really give a
dern what the specifications say and price has little to do with the
matter either. The tool either satisfies or it doesn't. Admittedly,
I've got a couple of Craftsman tools that were disappointing, out of the
box.
Some tools are poorly designed - others are poorly built - and some
are both. The feel of a tool generally has to do with design - as
(generally) does the look. How long or well it performs is more oftem
how they are built, although design also comes into it.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 21:58:14 -0500
Bill wrote:

post a copy of their contract here! ; ) Maybe the details are
public (but Stanley, B&D is an closed foreign corp, right?)

dunno anything about them

both are publically traded

swk and shld so the info is out there

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:07:05 -0500
wrote:

Sears NEVER made Craftsman tools. All they did is design (specify) and
sell them. Not a lot will change at Sears as far as Craftsman Tools
is concerned, at the store level.

semantics

sears does not do manufacturing

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 23:15:08 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?
would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..
"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.
I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.


I think from the perspective of most folks, and myself, "quality" has to
do with how well a tool lives up to doing what it is supposed to do,
without falling apart or breaking along the way. We don't really give a
dern what the specifications say and price has little to do with the
matter either. The tool either satisfies or it doesn't. Admittedly,
I've got a couple of Craftsman tools that were disappointing, out of the
box.

There's a lot in that paragraph, but...

The specification is what directs the manufacturer how to make the
quality (or not so) tool. It has everything to do with its
performance and durability.

Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 15:32:57 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

they must be selling the designs and molds and any intellectual
properties

The molds would be made of sand and binder, so nothing to sell there.
The patterns are limited in the number of molds you will make, not
likely to economic the ship them any where.

Nope all the Sears has to sell is the Craftsman name, they are already
selling the wrenchs, rachets sets through Ace hardware and others.

wrote:
Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?


That's not a fair comparison, I have mostly-all-Craftsman tool boxes (I
keep English and metric separate).

wrote:
Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?


To my mind, the green brand is a boutique item. Snap-On too. Craftsman
is not. YMMV.

wrote in message ...

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:26:31 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.

I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.
Sears gave the same specs to Danaher as they gave to Stanley - and
Stanley likely exceded the specs. Most of the Danaher production is
off-shore - as is a fair amount of Stanley's production.

According to the news story in the paper about the purchase, Stanley plans
to add manufacturing capacity in the US for the Craftsman tools.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 15:56:19 -0500, "John S" wrote:



wrote in message ...

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:26:31 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 22:03:41 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 20:01:25 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 16:12:10 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jan 2017 11:55:55 -0800, Electric Comet
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Jan 2017 16:20:58 -0500
Bill wrote:

If you just spent 900 million on the company, what would you do?

would not have paid that for the name
which is all they did

so i cannot enter the mindset of an idiot that paid 900 mil for
the craftsman name

it used to mean something a long time ago


sears must be laughing their butt off and now they will continue to
sell the tools and make more then they were making

i am surprised they pulled it off because i did not think sears had
a brain cell







The Craftsman name is one of the most valuable brands in North America
that Stanley did not already own. They didn't stand a chance of buing
Snap-On and they already own or produce most of the rest.
They produced Craftsman up untill at least the mid '90s so they know
the market - - - - They CAN make a better Craftsman tool than Danaher
has been making for the last roughly 20 years, as according to most
users the pre-'95 Craftsman tools were better than the later ones..

"Can" isn't the issue. Sears offered the tools they thought would
make them the most money. I don't see anything changing in that
regard.

IMO, the pre '80 (varied) hand tools were better than later tools.
The power tools were always the pits. The rebadged ones were, in most
cases, more expensive than their equivaents.
The hand tools before 1995 were made BY STANLEY and they were better
than the later tools, so STANLEY made Craftsman tools will likely be
better quality tools than the latest Craftsman tools.

I understood the logic but don't agree with it. To come to that
conclusion you have to assume the quality is determned by who makes
the tool and has nothing to do with specifications or the price points
set by Sears.
Sears gave the same specs to Danaher as they gave to Stanley - and
Stanley likely exceded the specs. Most of the Danaher production is
off-shore - as is a fair amount of Stanley's production.

According to the news story in the paper about the purchase, Stanley plans
to add manufacturing capacity in the US for the Craftsman tools.
I suspect Craftsman will be one of Stanley's "premium" lines. -
along with Proto and MAC

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:39:48 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?


To my mind, the green brand is a boutique item. Snap-On too. Craftsman
is not. YMMV.

So you're saying that cost does concern you.

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:39:48 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?

To my mind, the green brand is a boutique item. Snap-On too. Craftsman
is not. YMMV.
So you're saying that cost does concern you.


I certainly did not say that, but I concede I have been loyal to the
brand--as far as hand tools goes.
I avoid buying tools at a lower level than Craftsman, even if it costs
me a few bucks. Whether they charge me $15 or $20 for a wrench, I
probably won't notice the difference--I'll be in a bigger hurry to get
back to the reason I bought the wrench in the first place. At least
they have a very nice selection...and tools I would never have thought
of (and mostly don't need for the time being). I bought some ratchet
extensions which "turn corners" not to long ago, just in case I ever
need them. 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" for about $15. If I die before I use them
it will have been a waste of money! ; ) Does it concern me? Not the
cost...

wrote in
:

I suspect Craftsman will be one of Stanley's "premium" lines. -
along with Proto and MAC

If they position it at the same level as Kobalt, I think they'll really
have something. Decent tools, decent price. All my screwdrivers are
Kobalt (except for the 4 that are Craftsman), and I guard them! Precision
Phillips aren't to be destroyed by guys who have been turning screws for
years, go beat up your own screwdrivers!

I hate the noise of a screwdriver bit slipping in a screw head. Shows the
operator is screwy in the head.

Puckdropper
--
http://www.puckdroppersplace.us/rec.woodworking
A mini archive of some of rec.woodworking's best and worst!

On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 22:49:29 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:39:48 -0500, Bill
wrote:

wrote:
Of cost isn't your concern, I"m sure you have an all-green workshop,
right?

To my mind, the green brand is a boutique item. Snap-On too. Craftsman
is not. YMMV.
So you're saying that cost does concern you.


I certainly did not say that, but I concede I have been loyal to the
brand--as far as hand tools goes.

Now I'm totally confused. First you indicate that it doesn't matter,
then it does, and now it doesn't again. Exactly what *are* you
saying?

I avoid buying tools at a lower level than Craftsman, even if it costs
me a few bucks. Whether they charge me $15 or $20 for a wrench, I
probably won't notice the difference--I'll be in a bigger hurry to get
back to the reason I bought the wrench in the first place. At least
they have a very nice selection...and tools I would never have thought
of (and mostly don't need for the time being). I bought some ratchet
extensions which "turn corners" not to long ago, just in case I ever
need them. 1/4, 3/8, and 1/2" for about $15. If I die before I use them
it will have been a waste of money! ; ) Does it concern me? Not the
cost...

I don't buy very many tools when I need them - too late, rather when I
see one that may be useful. I may buy specialized plumbing tools
when I have a job coming up but that's about it. Fasteners and such I
keep stock of whatever I may need in the next year. I don't want to
stop what I'm doing for the "lack of a nail".

I don't buy much of anything at Sears anymore (just parts for my
tractor), mainly because there are none around but also because HF
wrenches are just as good and a whole lot cheaper and I was never a
real big fan of any of their other tools (I do have some screwdrivers
and a couple of hammers from 30 and 40 years back). It didn't used to
be that way. For "expendibles" (I can't even count the number of
wrenches I've lost in my lifetime) HF is plenty good. The cost of han
tools matters some but a lot less with power tools. That may sound
backwards but I'm done being stuck with with what I don't really want.
Buying what I really want only hurts once and I can wait.

On 1/17/2017 11:46 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in
:

I suspect Craftsman will be one of Stanley's "premium" lines. -
along with Proto and MAC

If they position it at the same level as Kobalt, I think they'll really
have something. Decent tools, decent price. All my screwdrivers are
Kobalt (except for the 4 that are Craftsman), and I guard them! Precision
Phillips aren't to be destroyed by guys who have been turning screws for
years, go beat up your own screwdrivers!

I hate the noise of a screwdriver bit slipping in a screw head. Shows the
operator is screwy in the head.

Puckdropper



From what I understand Lowe's handles two levels of tools. Kobalt is
the lower line and I forget the other brand. It is speculated they,
Lowe's, might take on Craftsman and it will be the middle grade brand.

I invested in Wera Screwdrivers, they have laser etched tips and really
grab tightly, even the straight drive ones.

I understand that the Craftsman diamond coated tips hold very well also.