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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
fail.


My fluorescent experiences...

Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube

Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube

Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced



It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
the electric supply.

My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.

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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:

Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.


Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
little different.



--
But there is no path through the woods.
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On 11/13/2016 1:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
fail.


My fluorescent experiences...

Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube

Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube

Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced



It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
the electric supply.

My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.


I think the difference is in the continuous hours of usage. I suspect
the business lights are on for 8 or more hours at a time. Residential
lights are likely turned off when you leave the room, and seldom on for
more than an hour or so at a time. It's the frequent starts that kill
the ballast/bulb.
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On 11/13/2016 10:31 AM, woodchucker wrote:
On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
Leon wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue.
My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
at least 2 fold.
I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
A safe guess would be 20.

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to
fail.



I find glad resent love gating iffy.



Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.





And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?

I like the spell checkers. Don't like those too lazy to look before
sending.
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"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"Gramps' shop" wrote in message
...
Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
4 footers.


More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
PDF, takes a while).
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...offer_2013.pdf

To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)



My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.


That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
than do T-8 fluorescents.

However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
similar for both.

In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
tubes.

In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
bright.

My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
of fluorescent tubes.


How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
"daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?




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On 11/13/16 12:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting
to fail.


My fluorescent experiences...

Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube

Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube

Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced



It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability
of the electric supply.

My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes
every year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it
myself. Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.



May also have to do with price/quality.
As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the equation.
Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one
can cost.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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On 11/13/16 1:15 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"Gramps' shop" wrote in message
...
Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
4 footers.

More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
PDF, takes a while).
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...offer_2013.pdf

To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)



My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.


That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
than do T-8 fluorescents.


Not all LED tubes are equal, to the best of my knowledge.


However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
similar for both.


Interesting observation and again, not all are the same design.
However, on that tangent, I actually took the reflectors off mine
because I was getting more reflection from my white ceiling than the
fixture reflectors.


In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
tubes.

In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
bright.

My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
of fluorescent tubes.


How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
"daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?


With my eyes. :-)
I could see a lot better.
Everything was lighted up with not dark spots in the room.
Everyday, any time of day/night, any weather, all the time.

FWIW, in video production we considered daylight to be midday with
evenly overcast skies.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:28:22 -0800 (PST), "Gramps' shop"
wrote:

Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube 4 footers.


Before I sold the farm I had a shop with 8 foot T12 bulbs in 7 nice
fixtures -2 bulbs each- with refective tops and they worked very well
but ballast life was poor and the last time I bought bulbs I had to
buy a whole box. $160 + tax.

For my new shop I bought only flush mount pure LEDs. No bulbs just a
strip of LEDs rated for 30,000 hours (12W 790 lumens) and came with a
5 year guarantee. A major investment but with no bulbs to burn out
and a 5 year guarantee I think I will come out ahead.

Time will tell and YMMV

Jim
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:30:02 -0600, -MIKE- wrote:

It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability of
the electric supply.

My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes every
year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it myself.
Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.



May also have to do with price/quality.
As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the
equation.
Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one can
cost.


In my case, both sites had the cheap fixtures and tubes on sale at the
Borg. In fact, most of the fixtures moved with me.





--
But there is no path through the woods.
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt
wrote:

Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:


My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.

Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)


The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too


Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
hopefully capitolize on its popularity.

Puckdropper


... yes, as shown he
https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/w...ture-Chart.jpg

Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.

https://goo.gl/cH3rUx

https://goo.gl/VmyoK3

I wouldn't want 6500K for living areas but they're great for work
areas, including kitchens.


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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:11:21 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/13/2016 9:48 AM, Spalted Walt wrote:
Puckdropper puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote:

Ed Pawlowski wrote in news:F9SdnS5J5KM9VbrFnZ2dnUU7-
:

On 11/12/2016 7:56 PM, krw wrote:


My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.

Color temperature matters a lot. Try tubes with the same lumens at
2700K and 6500K, and you'll see a big difference. That's not to say
that fluorescents are better but all lumens are not created equal. ;-)


The 6500k are often called "daylight". My preference too


Be careful, though, as daylight might be only 6000K or even 5000K. The
term's unregulated, so marketers will stick it to anything even close to
hopefully capitolize on its popularity.

Puckdropper


... yes, as shown he
https://www.downlights.co.uk/media/w...ture-Chart.jpg

Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.


It is an odd thing to comprehend. I used to hate LED lights, they ALL
looked blue and did not seem to have any illumination compared to
incandescent. I'm talking many years ago when LED flash lights were
first showing up.

Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
filter out the blue.


"White" LEDs are actually blue, with various phosphors to convert the
blue light down, much as a fluorescent. Like a fluorescent, a mix of
phosphors can be used to tune the "color". Also like fluorescents,
LEDs output light in narrow wavelength bands. A filter would filter
these out, leaving you in the dark. ;-)

I have Phillips Alto Daylight 6500K T8's in my shop, 16 of them, and I
see no blue at all. BUT I just replaced the florescent screw in ceiling
bulbs in my shop to supplement the T8's and the lamps seem to cast a
slight touch of blue off of our white freezer. That was not there with
just the T8's. The new LED screw in lamps are 3700K, Go figure. I
guess they don't have enough yellow filter .





https://goo.gl/cH3rUx

https://goo.gl/VmyoK3


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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:41:42 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:

Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.


Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
little different.


Indeed it is and our memory for such things is really lousy. The
brain adjusts color of objects to match what we think they should be
(automatic color balancing, if you will). This can lead to some odd
effects. It's also why I can't tell the difference between black,
blue, or brown sox in the morning. Blue and brown sox are banned from
the house. ;-)


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On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
life expectancy.


I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue.
My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
at least 2 fold.
I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
A safe guess would be 20.


But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see but
I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20. Heat is
a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you want to
extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a beer-can
heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from the base)
will probably double its life.



I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.

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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 14:30:02 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/13/16 12:36 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting
to fail.

My fluorescent experiences...

Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube

Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube

Current residence, 20 years, about half have been changed/replaced



It does seem to depend on the site - probably the quality/stability
of the electric supply.

My previous shop, a free standing shed, did have to replace tubes
every year or two. My current shop is in the garage and I wired it
myself. Been there 4 years and had one tube out of 18 burn out.



May also have to do with price/quality.
As others have pointed out, the ballasts are a huge part of the equation.
Last time I install florescent tubes, I didn't feel like spending 150
bucks per fixture, which is what a good commercial/industrial one
can cost.


I think you're onto something there. For the number of hours a
fluorescent will run in a home, it's probably not worth the more
expensive ballast.
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:31:56 -0500, woodchucker
wrote:

On 11/13/2016 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:
Leon wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper in
the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND their
life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and another
pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than incandescent bulbs
in the last five years, despite being outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue.
My LED's have already outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by
at least 2 fold.
I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them.
A safe guess would be 20.

I've never had a tube last more than 18 months without starting to fail.



I find glad resent love gating iffy.



Jeeeeeeez. I find fluorescent lighting iffy.





And what about the "in the class set and laundry room two" ????
Don't you hate the spell checkers on cell phones?


I laugh at SWMBO's text messages. She never reads them before
sending. Some are really funny.


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On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper
in the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND
their life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2 fold. I
would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them. A
safe guess would be 20.


But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see
but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20.
Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you
want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a
beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from
the base) will probably double its life.


Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
Mine don't even run warm.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

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-MIKE- wrote in news

Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
Mine don't even run warm.



Inertia... The "clip on bulb" style of lamp shades have been scarce for
years, and there's litterally millions of fixtures with a standard medium
base out there. What worked for the old bulbs space wise will work for
the new ones.

Although, for new construction a flat "pancake" style box and a shallow
fixture would allow you to have "recessed" pot lights without actually
recessing them. They're currently a favorite design it seems, but I'm
not all that keen on them.

In one library (bathroom) the new HVAC return went right over the reading
chair (toilet). The light that was there was removed and I haven't been
bothered enough to put one back. A flat pot light (especially one that
could be surface mounted) would fit that location quite nicely. (I think
I hear somebody saying "fire up Google". Yeah, I know... It's on the
list.)

Puckdropper
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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the
Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT cheaper
in the long run when you consider their energy consumption AND
their life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2 fold. I
would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out of them. A
safe guess would be 20.


But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll see
but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less 20.
Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*. If you
want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED "bulbs", a
beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan radiating away from
the base) will probably double its life.


Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
Mine don't even run warm.


Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.

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Don't fool yourself. Lumens is the official international standard.
The Process or setup is what you are talking about before light is
measured. And what process did you use to determine the '90%' from
paint. What paint color and what paint surface and .... who cares
really. Just say a lot of light and you would be ok.

I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.

Martin

On 11/13/2016 1:15 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"-MIKE-" wrote in message
news
On 11/12/16 12:42 PM, dadiOH wrote:
"Gramps' shop" wrote in message
...
Need to add some lighting. T8 or T12? Probably going with 2-tube
4 footers.

More - probably - than you'll ever need/want to know (downloads a
PDF, takes a while).
http://apps1.eere.energy.gov/buildin...offer_2013.pdf

To paraphrase it, if you want to save electricity, use LED; if you
want max light, use flourescent (use electronic ballast)



My actual experience would contradict that.
Lumens are lumens.


That's true. It is also true that T-8 replacement LEDs emit fewer lumens
than do T-8 fluorescents.

However, the fluorescent lumens are coming from all areas of the round tube
while the T-8 replacement LED lumens are coming from maybe a 100 degree area
of the tube which means that the light falling on an object may be very
similar for both.

In reality, "lumens" is not a good way to measure the real life
effectiveness of illumination. For example, if one uses diffusers on their
fluorescents they are immediately losing 1/2 the light output from the
tubes.

In my shop, the fluorescent lights are recessed into a cavity between the
trusses. That cavity is painted white which reflects about 90 % of the
light hitting it which means that I am capturing some of the lost light ffom
the fluorescents that is going up/sideways (a more reflective surface could
capture more). If I were to replace them with LEDs, my shop would be less
bright.

My shop is brighter than daylight and I'm using less than 1/2 the energy
of fluorescent tubes.


How did you measure the brightness? Also, how bright and what is
"daylight"? Is it sunlight? A light cloudy sky? A dark cloudy sky?


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On 11/13/16 8:44 PM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on
the Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT
cheaper in the long run when you consider their energy
consumption AND their life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2
fold. I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out
of them. A safe guess would be 20.

But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll
see but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less
20. Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*.
If you want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED
"bulbs", a beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan
radiating away from the base) will probably double its life.


Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we
still trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond
me) get hot, but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the
tube versions. Mine don't even run warm.


Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.


My point is there's a lot more room for the heat to dissipate in a 4ft.
tube than in a tiny little bulb-sized cluster, which would easily
explain the longer life span using your criteria for the reason for
failure.


--

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"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
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On 11/13/16 8:57 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.

Martin


Yet you still top post. :-p


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On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:22:02 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/13/16 8:44 PM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:37:05 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/13/16 6:40 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 20:20:37 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 6:59 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:02:35 -0600, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 11/12/16 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on
the Costco leds.


They may be cheaper to buy, but the LEDs will be a LOT
cheaper in the long run when you consider their energy
consumption AND their life expectancy.

I don't buy the advertised life of any lighting. I just and
another pig tail die today. I've lost more of them than
incandescent bulbs in the last five years, despite being
outnumbered at least 3:1.


But it's not even a debatable issue. My LED's have already
outlasted any fluorescent tubes I've ever had by at least 2
fold. I would bet the farm that I'll get another 10 years out
of them. A safe guess would be 20.

But 2-fold isn't anything close to the advertised life. We'll
see but I *highly* doubt you're going to get 10 years, much less
20. Heat is a killer of semiconductors and those LEDs run *hot*.
If you want to extend the life of the medium screw base LED
"bulbs", a beer-can heatsink (cut it up to look like a fan
radiating away from the base) will probably double its life.


Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we
still trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond
me) get hot, but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the
tube versions. Mine don't even run warm.


Bright LEDs are *hot* LEDs. They go together.


My point is there's a lot more room for the heat to dissipate in a 4ft.
tube than in a tiny little bulb-sized cluster, which would easily
explain the longer life span using your criteria for the reason for
failure.


It's not about the tube getting hot. It's about the semiconductor
junction heating. Without a *really* good heatsink, they will
overheat. Most are *way* under designed.
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On 11/13/2016 12:49 PM, Larry Kraus wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 07:31:47 -0500, dadiOH wrote:


My fluorescent experiences...

Business location #1, 13 years, never changed a tube

Business location #2, 16 years, never changed a tube


I think the difference is in the continuous hours of usage. I suspect
the business lights are on for 8 or more hours at a time.


I agree.

I've changed 1, of 10, shop T-8's in 14 years.

I keep them on 24/7.

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On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 9:03:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
-MIKE- wrote in news

Apples and oranges. Yes, the compact ones (why the heck are we still
trying to visually imitate a century old designs is beyond me) get hot,
but there's a lot more room for the electronics in the tube versions.
Mine don't even run warm.



Inertia... The "clip on bulb" style of lamp shades have been scarce for
years, and there's litterally millions of fixtures with a standard medium
base out there. What worked for the old bulbs space wise will work for
the new ones.

Although, for new construction a flat "pancake" style box and a shallow
fixture would allow you to have "recessed" pot lights without actually
recessing them. They're currently a favorite design it seems, but I'm
not all that keen on them.

In one library (bathroom) the new HVAC return went right over the reading
chair (toilet). The light that was there was removed and I haven't been
bothered enough to put one back. A flat pot light (especially one that
could be surface mounted) would fit that location quite nicely. (I think
I hear somebody saying "fire up Google". Yeah, I know... It's on the
list.)

Puckdropper


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895

They have a standard E26 "base" so they can be used in a standard fixture.
I replaced the bulb in the porcelain fixture near the service panel with
the 7" version. Much, much brighter.

My daughter's apartment has a kitchen light with a round shade and a socket
for a single bulb, similar to this:

http://iappfind.com/images/_fullsize...s-of-white.jpg

I replaced the single bulb with the 11" size and it not only fills the
shade nicely but spreads the light much more widely. It was so much
brighter that it took her a few days to get used to it.

On the subject of brightness, I also found the LED shop lights and
those flush mount units to be almost painfully bright after I installed
them. It took a few days for me to get used to them. I think the additional
brightness drew my eyes to them and that's what made them "uncomfortable".
After a few days, I think my brain adapted and they stopped bothering me. My
daughter noticed the same thing with her kitchen fixture. At first she
wanted me to take it out, but I suggested she try it for a few days and
now she fine with it.
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On 11/14/2016 8:17 AM, Swingman wrote:
....

I've changed 1, of 10, shop T-8's in 14 years.

I keep them on 24/7.


OTOH, earlier this summer I changed out the shop tubes for first time in
15 yr since came back to the farm and installed them as one of first
items of business in setting up a work area in preparation for the
reroof/restoration project. They've been quite intermittent in
operation most of that time...

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"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895


About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593

Within 3 months, one began flickering badly. Another month or so and a
second began flickering, A month or so later the flickering was so bad that
they were unuseable so both were replaced with similar incandescent bulb
fixtures. The replaced lights had a 5 year warranty but I didn't bother
with it, HD receipt was long gone and even if I had it, the warranty has a
"not OUR fault" clause' moreover, the only remedy was repair or replace and
I didn't want another..

Four or five months later, the third began flickering too. It is still
flickering, light outbut is maybe 10% of the original. It too will be
replaced when I get around to it. That's $90 + 7% tax down the drain. No
more LEDs for me.


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"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895


About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593


Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.

It also turns out that the flickering in those
fixtures is sometimes caused by chafed wiring, which is
easily repaired.
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On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895


About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593


Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.


FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the box,
the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.

It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.

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"Scott Lurndal" wrote in message
...
"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895


About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593


Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.

It also turns out that the flickering in those
fixtures is sometimes caused by chafed wiring, which is
easily repaired.


Or faulty switches. In my case, both switches and wiring were fine.


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"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895

About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593


Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.


FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
box,
the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.

It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.


I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work fine
in a residence for more than a few months.





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On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:02:05 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895

About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not
screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593

Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.


FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
box,
the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First Roofing
and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.

It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.


I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work fine
in a residence for more than a few months.


That was Scott's (and my) point.

The name on the box is "Commercial Electric", which might make some people
*think* that the fixtures are commercial grade. Scott feels it is dishonest
to even imply that they are commercial grade by using the word "Commercial"
on the box, even if it's just the name of the product line. I was simply
saying that I, for one, am not in any way fooled by the name on the box.
I can, however, certainly see those words fooling some people.
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On 11/13/2016 7:36 PM, krw wrote:
On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:41:42 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:48:37 +0000, Spalted Walt wrote:

Color temp is a individual preference thing. Even though 6500K does
appear marginally brighter, the unmistakable blue hue isn't for me. IMO
the sweet spot is in the 4000K/5000K range.


Don't know the color temps, but I've found the combination of a "cool
white" and a GE Kitchen and Bath gives as close to "natural" light as I
can get. But I suspect that everyone's conception of natural light is a
little different.


Indeed it is and our memory for such things is really lousy. The
brain adjusts color of objects to match what we think they should be
(automatic color balancing, if you will). This can lead to some odd
effects.



It's also why I can't tell the difference between black,
blue, or brown sox in the morning. Blue and brown sox are banned from
the house. ;-)




+1

--
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"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 2:02:05 PM UTC-5, dadiOH wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
On Monday, November 14, 2016 at 11:55:13 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
"dadiOH" writes:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895

About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in,
not
screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593

Well, you gets what you pays for. It's quite dishonest of HD
to imply that these are commerical quality fixtures, but that's
par for the course with most mass market crap nowadays.


FWIW, I never assume any quality or reputation based on the name on the
box,
the side of the truck, etc. "Commercial Electric", "Quality First
Roofing
and Siding", etc. don't mean jack to me.

It's a shame that some people are fooled, but it sure does happen.


I didn't think they were "commercial" grade. I assumed they would work
fine
in a residence for more than a few months.


That was Scott's (and my) point.

The name on the box is "Commercial Electric", which might make some people
*think* that the fixtures are commercial grade. Scott feels it is
dishonest
to even imply that they are commercial grade by using the word
"Commercial"
on the box, even if it's just the name of the product line. I was simply
saying that I, for one, am not in any way fooled by the name on the box.
I can, however, certainly see those words fooling some people.


Oh, OK


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dadiOH wrote:

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...


I have recently bought a couple of these, one 7" and 11".

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...6241/205890895


About a year ago, I bought 3 of these from HD. They were wire in, not screw
in. I liked them, nice and bright.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Commercia...L-BN/205148593

Within 3 months, one began flickering badly. Another month or so and a
second began flickering, A month or so later the flickering was so bad that
they were unuseable so both were replaced with similar incandescent bulb
fixtures. The replaced lights had a 5 year warranty but I didn't bother
with it, HD receipt was long gone and even if I had it, the warranty has a
"not OUR fault" clause' moreover, the only remedy was repair or replace and
I didn't want another..

Four or five months later, the third began flickering too. It is still
flickering, light outbut is maybe 10% of the original. It too will be
replaced when I get around to it. That's $90 + 7% tax down the drain. No
more LEDs for me.




FWIW. The bulbs that HD and the likes sell are some what unique to each
brand store. I have called the manufacturer, given them the numbers off of
the bulbs and they can tell me that I either bought them from HD, Lowes, Or
Sam's Club. They never need a receipt or proof of purchase for a free
replacement but some times might want the defective one back. Every
manufacturer has paid for return shipping when asked to return.

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On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:

Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
filter out the blue.


Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
generate visible light with phosphors.


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On 11/16/2016 12:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:

Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
filter out the blue.


Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
generate visible light with phosphors.



Excuse me for using the wrong terminology. But with out the yellow you
get blue, the point I was trying to make. ;!)
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On Wed, 16 Nov 2016 09:00:52 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 11/16/2016 12:58 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Sunday, November 13, 2016 at 8:11:28 AM UTC-8, Leon wrote:

Fast forward and LED's lights now use, in many cases, yellow filters to
filter out the blue.


Actually, that yellow color is a phosphor; LED illumination starts with a blue
LED (sharp spectrum line) and generates other wavelengths with phosphors.
Fluorescents start with ultraviolet (from mercury in the gas of the tube) and
generate visible light with phosphors.



Excuse me for using the wrong terminology. But with out the yellow you
get blue, the point I was trying to make. ;!)


It's really the opposite of a filter. You're adding individual colors
(from phosphors) to get a perceived color, rather than starting with
all colors and filtering out the ones you don't want. If you look at
the spectrum through a filter, an incandescent with a filter will
produce a continuous spectrum. A fluorescent or LED will produce
bright lines with nothing between. That's why fluorescent and LED
tubes have problems with color "purity".

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Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
email server. Before the WWW came along...
Martin

On 11/13/2016 9:24 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 11/13/16 8:57 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:

I have advanced work in Physics and Electronics.

Martin


Yet you still top post. :-p


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On 11/12/2016 5:52 PM, Gramps' shop wrote:
Thanks. Fluorescents are cheaper, but I have decided on the Costco leds.



So, Larry, what's the verdict? Have you purchased and installed those
Costo lights yet?

I'd be interested in hearing your verdict after they're up and running.
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On 11/16/2016 10:00 PM, Martin Eastburn wrote:
Yes I've been this way since "Line charges" were in effect. Charge for
the number of lines of text that came through the dial up news server or
email server. Before the WWW came along...


And, as we used to point out to those using that as an excuse, before
the "www came along ...":

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

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