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On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!
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On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!


No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.

My neighbor just bought a 2016 Camry and the front grill will scare senior
citizens and young children. I'd swear there is less wildlife in my
neighborhood since he brought that beast home.

I don't know who their target market is, but there are 55+ YO's and mid-20's
members of my household and none of us like the front end of the Camry.
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DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

John
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On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 2:37:09 PM UTC-4, John McCoy wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

John


I haven't looked close enough but I wonder if the new grills have a guard to
protect the radiator. I know lots of folks that own Odyssey's who have added
"radiator protection" to prevent damage.

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/attach...y-img_3183.jpg


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On Fri, 24 Jul 2015 18:35:35 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

They hired Chrysler engineers? They're certainly ugly enough.

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"John McCoy" wrote in message
. ..
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

John


Look what Lexus has done to the grille on all their cars.

Dave in SoTex

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On 7/24/2015 11:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!


No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better, Honda
or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do take some
getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer the look of
the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is now 35 months old
and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007 Tundra still runs
like new.






My neighbor just bought a 2016 Camry and the front grill will scare senior
citizens and young children. I'd swear there is less wildlife in my
neighborhood since he brought that beast home.


It does sorta look like a snow blower intake.

I don't know who their target market is, but there are 55+ YO's and mid-20's
members of my household and none of us like the front end of the Camry.


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On 7/24/2015 1:35 PM, John McCoy wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

John


FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.


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In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/24/2015 11:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!


No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better, Honda
or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do take some
getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer the look of
the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is now 35 months old
and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007 Tundra still runs
like new.


I put two engines in a 1983 Supra in 30,000 miles (yes, thirty, not
three hundred) with Toyota being unwilling to cough up one cent (the
first one was 12,800 miles into a 12,500 mile warranty IIRC) so I never
want another Toyota.

First one the bearings went on a really cold morning. Second one I was
driving down the road about 35 miles an hour in fourth gear and it threw
a rod.

Until the first engine blew it was really a nice car.
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Leon wrote:


I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better,
Honda or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do
take some getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer
the look of the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is
now 35 months old and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007
Tundra still runs like new.


When I was considering replacing my Silverado, I was thinking seriously
about going back to a smaller pickup - not a full size truck. Looking
around at things, the Tundra had the hands-down best reputation on the
market in that class of truck. You're hard pressed to find any complaints
with that truck.

--

-Mike-



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On 7/25/2015 10:07 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/24/2015 11:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!

No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.


I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better, Honda
or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do take some
getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer the look of
the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is now 35 months old
and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007 Tundra still runs
like new.


I put two engines in a 1983 Supra in 30,000 miles (yes, thirty, not
three hundred) with Toyota being unwilling to cough up one cent (the
first one was 12,800 miles into a 12,500 mile warranty IIRC) so I never
want another Toyota.

First one the bearings went on a really cold morning. Second one I was
driving down the road about 35 miles an hour in fourth gear and it threw
a rod.

Until the first engine blew it was really a nice car.

I suspect that the engines are better built today. I can understand
your frustration, I once had a Vega, two engines on that one and needed
a third at less than 45k.
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On 7/25/2015 10:12 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:


I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better,
Honda or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do
take some getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer
the look of the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is
now 35 months old and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007
Tundra still runs like new.


When I was considering replacing my Silverado, I was thinking seriously
about going back to a smaller pickup - not a full size truck. Looking
around at things, the Tundra had the hands-down best reputation on the
market in that class of truck. You're hard pressed to find any complaints
with that truck.


Unless GM has changed drastically, expect to replace blower motors,
compressors and alternators. When I was selling GM parts for the dealer
these parts were fast movers. When I was the GM for an AC/Delco
wholesaler probably 35% of our floor space was dedicated to those 3
items. That was 20 years ago but up to that point there did not seem to
be any desire by GM to correct the problem.

My complaint with the Tundra is that it is not wearing out. ;~) I just
can't justify replacing it for a new fancier one. And I have the major
hots for the new ones although I would like to see how they address gas
mileage in the future. They are behind the curve compared to current
new competitive models. But 0-60 in 6 seconds is a lot of fun. ;~)

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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.


The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.

With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).

Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.

John




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On 7/25/2015 11:41 AM, Leon wrote:


I suspect that the engines are better built today. I can understand
your frustration, I once had a Vega, two engines on that one and needed
a third at less than 45k.


That was one of the first all aluminum engines. When my brother moved
from Philadelphia to San Diego, I drove one of his three cars, his
wife's Vega, out there. Cross country in five days. It was never the
same after that so he unloaded it.
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In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/25/2015 10:07 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/24/2015 11:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!

No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.

I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better, Honda
or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do take some
getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer the look of
the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is now 35 months old
and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007 Tundra still runs
like new.


I put two engines in a 1983 Supra in 30,000 miles (yes, thirty, not
three hundred) with Toyota being unwilling to cough up one cent (the
first one was 12,800 miles into a 12,500 mile warranty IIRC) so I never
want another Toyota.

First one the bearings went on a really cold morning. Second one I was
driving down the road about 35 miles an hour in fourth gear and it threw
a rod.

Until the first engine blew it was really a nice car.

I suspect that the engines are better built today. I can understand
your frustration, I once had a Vega, two engines on that one and needed
a third at less than 45k.


Yours laste 45K? My dad's was mostly rust by 30K.
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On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.


The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.


That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL
2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?



With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.


Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.

But yes in ideal conditions the vehicle is, in varying less degrees,
dependent on radiator capacity.






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On 7/25/2015 11:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/25/2015 11:41 AM, Leon wrote:


I suspect that the engines are better built today. I can understand
your frustration, I once had a Vega, two engines on that one and needed
a third at less than 45k.


That was one of the first all aluminum engines. When my brother moved
from Philadelphia to San Diego, I drove one of his three cars, his
wife's Vega, out there. Cross country in five days. It was never the
same after that so he unloaded it.



Actually the Vega engine, except for the Cosworth Vega engine, had an
aluminum block and cast iron head. Expansion rates between dissimilar
metals may have been one of the reasons for chronic blown head gaskets
and over heating. I was very leery of buying anything American with all
or partial aluminum engines in the 70's and 80's. Although my factory
rep talked me into buying my wife the 83 Ciera with the aluminum block
V6 diesel. He guaranteed me that he would warrant if for as long as I
owned it. I bit and bought and unloaded before 50K. I got tired of
having the vehicle in the shop for engine problems. He made good on the
promise however. I paid for no repairs. And to be certain, I was the
Service Sales Manager for a large Oldsmobile dealership. There was no
issue with maintenance being a factor.
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On 7/25/2015 11:35 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/25/2015 10:07 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
In article , lcb11211
@swbelldotnet says...

On 7/24/2015 11:48 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Friday, July 24, 2015 at 11:27:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 7/24/2015 10:21 AM, Leon wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/5-new-fe...918547697.html



Finally, I did it...... Really screwed up on where this went. Sorry!

No problem...

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't go as
aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.

I used to buy Honda and Acura. Flip a coin as to which is better, Honda
or Toyota. But the grills on all of the Toyotas and Lexus do take some
getting use to. We have a 2012 SE V6 Camry and I do prefer the look of
the 2015 over ours except for the grill. Our Camry is now 35 months old
and has yet to go in for any warranty work. My 2007 Tundra still runs
like new.

I put two engines in a 1983 Supra in 30,000 miles (yes, thirty, not
three hundred) with Toyota being unwilling to cough up one cent (the
first one was 12,800 miles into a 12,500 mile warranty IIRC) so I never
want another Toyota.

First one the bearings went on a really cold morning. Second one I was
driving down the road about 35 miles an hour in fourth gear and it threw
a rod.

Until the first engine blew it was really a nice car.

I suspect that the engines are better built today. I can understand
your frustration, I once had a Vega, two engines on that one and needed
a third at less than 45k.


Yours laste 45K? My dad's was mostly rust by 30K.

I keep hearing that they had rust problems... But, I did live in south
Texas but 3 miles from the coast line. I did however, being a kid with
excess energy, wash and "wax" the vehicle every week.


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On 07/25/2015 10:19 AM, Leon wrote:

snip

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL
And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


snip

Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.


I had an overhearing problem with my 2004.5 Chev Duramax while towing a
10,000 lb trailer up a long grade in the AZ summer. The problem was
exactly what you mention - the heat from the radiator blown by the fan
when it engaged right into the the air intake - a wicked heat loop! The
solution was to upgrade the air intake to the cold air intake from the
2006 model as well as a much larger turbo intake to match the larger
size of the air intake plumbing. The next step would be a vented hood,
but the cold air intake solved the problem.

These trucks can generate some heat - the EGT can run about 1300F when
pulling a grade.



--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
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On 07/25/2015 10:43 AM, Doug Winterburn wrote:
On 07/25/2015 10:19 AM, Leon wrote:

snip

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL
And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


snip

Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.


I had an overhearing problem with my 2004.5 Chev Duramax while towing a
10,000 lb trailer up a long grade in the AZ summer. The problem was
exactly what you mention - the heat from the radiator blown by the fan
when it engaged right into the the air intake - a wicked heat loop! The
solution was to upgrade the air intake to the cold air intake from the
2006 model as well as a much larger turbo intake to match the larger
size of the air intake plumbing. The next step would be a vented hood,
but the cold air intake solved the problem.

These trucks can generate some heat - the EGT can run about 1300F when
pulling a grade.



Over heating!


--
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure,the creed of ignorance, and the
gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
-Winston Churchill
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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to
the source. How does that work? LOL


Well, it's actually not. The source is the combustion chamber
inside the engine. The air blowing back from the radiator is
hitting the outside of the engine, seperated from the source
by the engine block and water jacket. And, in practice of course
most of the air goes under the vehicle anyway.

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's
and 80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow
up when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


Simple - no oxygen. As long as the tank is full of gas vapors,
it's not full of air.

With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer
heat than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans
every vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


Well, we're kind of looking at two different things there. One
is the ability of the radiator to extract heat from the engine.
Passenger car radiators aren't big enough to extract all the
heat produced at full power.

The other is the ability of the radiator to reject heat to the
atmosphere. That is very dependent on the speed of the air
moving thru the radiator, and if there's no air movement it's
close to zero heat rejection. Hence the fan to produce air
movement while the vehicle is stationary.

Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.


Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat
is not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel
vehicles.


Not so at all. A sport bike engine is much more enclosed in the
bodywork than an automobile engine. It's different, of course,
if you're talking about a Harley or other bike with no bodywork.

And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar
HP car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY
also contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still
have PS pumps.


Well, any engine putting out a given horsepower is working just
as hard as any other engine putting out the same horsepower.
That's inherent in the definition of power. But I'll grant
you that at idle, a car engine is working harder than a bike
engine is.

John
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Doug Winterburn wrote in
eb.com:

I had an overhearing problem with my 2004.5 Chev Duramax while towing
a 10,000 lb trailer up a long grade in the AZ summer. The problem was
exactly what you mention - the heat from the radiator blown by the fan
when it engaged right into the the air intake - a wicked heat loop!
The solution was to upgrade the air intake to the cold air intake from
the 2006 model as well as a much larger turbo intake to match the
larger size of the air intake plumbing. The next step would be a
vented hood, but the cold air intake solved the problem.

These trucks can generate some heat - the EGT can run about 1300F when
pulling a grade.


What's happening there is that hot air is less dense than cold
air, so with the hot radiator air going into the engine, there
was less mass of air for combustion and thus less power out.

Since you were trying to go up a hill you started pressing the
accellerator pedal harder, putting more fuel to the engine to
make more power to compensate. Too much fuel means the exhaust
gas temps go up. Odds are you were also making smoke at that
point.

1300 sounds very hot to me, but perhaps the little diesels
are different (if nothing else, the pyrometer is probably
closer to the exhaust port in the head).

John
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Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

Unless GM has changed drastically, expect to replace blower motors,
compressors and alternators. When I was selling GM parts for the
dealer these parts were fast movers. When I was the GM for an
AC/Delco wholesaler probably 35% of our floor space was dedicated to
those 3 items. That was 20 years ago but up to that point there did
not seem to be any desire by GM to correct the problem.


Funnily enough, all those things were problems on my S10
20 years ago. I gave up on it after the clutch slave
cylinder locked up - turned out it hadn't been properly
bled at the factory, and the clutch was randomly not fully
engaging - so togther with the clutch slave cylinder I
needed a new clutch and flywheel, and, because the AC drain
had been misrouted, a new right side exhaust manifold (they
had to cut the old one out because the studs were too rusted).

On the bright side, in taking out and putting back the engine
they fixed the ABS (connector had evidently worked loose).
On the not so bright side, the brakes worked much better with
the ABS disconnected.

My complaint with the Tundra is that it is not wearing out. ;~)


You have a ways to go to catch up with my 01 F150 (new in
Nov 2000 - needs a paint job, but otherwise fine).

John


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On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:19:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.


The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.


That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL


a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.

b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


No oxygen = no boom.


With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).

If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.

Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.


Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.


The efficiency of the engines should be similar so heat out ~
mechanical power out. Of course, moving 3000# takes ten times the
energy of 300# (at least on the first order) so will require 1ox the
cooling.

But yes in ideal conditions the vehicle is, in varying less degrees,
dependent on radiator capacity.





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On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 18:48:06 +0000 (UTC), John McCoy
wrote:

Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
m:

Unless GM has changed drastically, expect to replace blower motors,
compressors and alternators. When I was selling GM parts for the
dealer these parts were fast movers. When I was the GM for an
AC/Delco wholesaler probably 35% of our floor space was dedicated to
those 3 items. That was 20 years ago but up to that point there did
not seem to be any desire by GM to correct the problem.


Funnily enough, all those things were problems on my S10
20 years ago. I gave up on it after the clutch slave
cylinder locked up - turned out it hadn't been properly
bled at the factory, and the clutch was randomly not fully
engaging - so togther with the clutch slave cylinder I
needed a new clutch and flywheel, and, because the AC drain
had been misrouted, a new right side exhaust manifold (they
had to cut the old one out because the studs were too rusted).

On the bright side, in taking out and putting back the engine
they fixed the ABS (connector had evidently worked loose).
On the not so bright side, the brakes worked much better with
the ABS disconnected.

My complaint with the Tundra is that it is not wearing out. ;~)


You have a ways to go to catch up with my 01 F150 (new in
Nov 2000 - needs a paint job, but otherwise fine).

I drove the wheels off (literally) my '01 Ranger. The frame and
mounts was so rotted that the rear leaf springs were resting on what
was left of the frame. I bought a '13 F150 *shortly* after. ;-) A
new truck was no more expensive than a used one, at the time.

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Default 2016 Accord face lift and still has V6 with MT

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:19:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.

The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.


That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL


a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.

b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


No oxygen = no boom.


With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).

If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.


But was that because the fan stopped or because the water pump stopped?



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Default 2016 Accord face lift and still has V6 with MT

On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 19:35:35 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:19:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.

The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.

That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL


a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.

b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


No oxygen = no boom.


With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).

And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).

If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.


But was that because the fan stopped or because the water pump stopped?

You're right. The water pump stopped as well.
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John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to
the source. How does that work? LOL


Well, it's actually not. The source is the combustion chamber
inside the engine. The air blowing back from the radiator is
hitting the outside of the engine, seperated from the source
by the engine block and water jacket. And, in practice of course
most of the air goes under the vehicle anyway.


You know what I am talking about. And if you want to get pin point
specific the source is the fire/ explosion in the cylinder. The air
eventually goes under the vehicle after hitting the engine.



2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's
and 80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow
up when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


Simple - no oxygen. As long as the tank is full of gas vapors,
it's not full of air.


Which is true 99.9999 percent of the time but gas caps get left off, and
air does get in. At some time or another the right moisture and situation
happens. I have to suspect that the motor has a check valve that prevents
reverse flow of fuel/ vapor back through the sock filter and tank.






With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer
heat than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans
every vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


Well, we're kind of looking at two different things there. One
is the ability of the radiator to extract heat from the engine.
Passenger car radiators aren't big enough to extract all the
heat produced at full power.

The other is the ability of the radiator to reject heat to the
atmosphere. That is very dependent on the speed of the air
moving thru the radiator, and if there's no air movement it's
close to zero heat rejection. Hence the fan to produce air
movement while the vehicle is stationary.

Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.


Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat
is not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel
vehicles.


Not so at all. A sport bike engine is much more enclosed in the
bodywork than an automobile engine. It's different, of course,
if you're talking about a Harley or other bike with no bodywork.

And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar
HP car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY
also contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still
have PS pumps.


Well, any engine putting out a given horsepower is working just
as hard as any other engine putting out the same horsepower.
That's inherent in the definition of power. But I'll grant
you that at idle, a car engine is working harder than a bike
engine is.

John



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krw wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:19:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.

The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.


That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL


a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.

b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


No oxygen = no boom.


With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).


And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).

If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.


I don,' believe so. The fan is there to move air through the radiator when
the vehicle is not moving fast enough help the radiator cast off heat.

You very likely had more going on to cause your engine to over heat,
especially at -20. 30 or do years ago we had a brutal winter, at least
for Houston. My service advisors were writing up an abnormally large
number of over heating vehicles. We had temps that never came above
freezing for days on end. And that was with fans working perfectly fine.
The simple problem was that those vehicles antifreeze was not up to the
task and the water/ antifreeze/ coolant mixture simply froze. There was no
water circulating at all to cool the engines. With -20 degrees and the
very likely fact that your fan belt also turned the water pump you probably
had no water circulation between the radiator and engine and or your water
froze. Unless you had a strong tail wind and the 70 mph vehicle wind
speed was effectively reduced to very little, you should have had enough
air passing through the radiator. Fans do not move air through the
radiator any where near 70. Mph. It as very likely that the water pomp
stopped turning fast enough to properly circulate the cooling system
antifreeze/ coolant.





Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.


Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.


The efficiency of the engines should be similar so heat out ~
mechanical power out. Of course, moving 3000# takes ten times the
energy of 300# (at least on the first order) so will require 1ox the
cooling.

But yes in ideal conditions the vehicle is, in varying less degrees,
dependent on radiator capacity.





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"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article 1290271644459583658.585579lcb11211-
, says...

"J. Clarke" wrote:
In article ,
says...

"John McCoy" wrote in message
. ..
DerbyDad03 wrote in
:

Let me be the first to say that (as a Honda fan) I'm glad they didn't
go as aggressive with the front grill as the new Toyota Camry has.

Yeah, I don't understand this current fad for huge grills
on small cars either. I swear, some of them are big enough
to put the radiator from a semi-truck behind (and all for
a little 1.4l 4-banger).

John

Look what Lexus has done to the grille on all their cars.

Dave in SoTex

That fad comes and goes.

The '66 Toronado is still a beautiful car nearly 50 years later. For
1970 they beat it to death with an ugly stick, and a huge new grille was
a big part of the uglification. Can't even blame it on the Feds--the
bumper-uglification law didn't go into effect until 1972.


I think the large grills looked great on the early 70's Camaro z28s with
split chrome bumpers.


It wasn't really all that large by the standards of the time. I am
conflicted about that model Camaro. When it first came out it was
stunning, but to my eyes it hasn't aged all that well. Still, 70-72
models looked a lot better than the later ones with the rubber baby
buggy bumpers.


Agreed! Even considering the new retro Camaros none have had the design
appeal as the 70-73 models. Rubber bumpers have always looked like the
loosing result of a compromise.

I think the most vulgar compromise was the first attempts in 74 to replace
the chrome bumpers with the lethargic play dough inspired front ends of the
Malibu. I was absolutely clueless why a single 74 Malibu ever moved off of
the dealers lot. But thinking back there are people that bought the
Citreon and Pontiac Aztec.
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krw wrote in news:cs48raldrqu1fnjn8lmnl2qbb8eqrkb6f9@
4ax.com:

They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines).


Not only that, but as Leon pointed out, the fan only needs
to run when the car is stationary, or close to it. Using
an electric fan means it can be turned off when not needed,
which slightly reduces aero drag, and slightly reduces the
power the engine has to supply to the altenator, both of
which slightly increase fuel mileage.

Years ago NASCAR stock cars (which were required by rule
to use belt driven fans) used to be fitted with tiny little
fans barely larger than your hand, to reduce drag and engine
load at 150mph+. As a consequence, it wasn't uncommon for
cars to overheat when running slow due to a caution period.

John


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On Sun, 26 Jul 2015 01:00:57 -0500, Leon wrote:

krw wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jul 2015 12:19:18 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/25/2015 10:58 AM, John McCoy wrote:
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote in
:

FWIW a small engine putting out extreme hp for its size does need lots
of cooling capacity. I remember when 2.3 liter produced 93 hp. It is
not unusual now to see less than 2 liter producing almost 300 hp.

The size of the engine is irrelevant, it's purely dependant on
the amount of power. Give or take a fraction, about 25% of the
chemical energy in the fuel comes out as mechanical energy (i.e.
horsepower), about 50% goes as heat in the exhaust, and about
25% goes as heat to the radiator.

That was my point, typically all engines are small these days but
produce up to triple HP so the need to cool is greater.
You left out natural heat radiation of the engine itself not counting
the exhaust. ;~) I'm an ex-GM service manager, actually my real jobs
were upper automotive management.
A few things that I could never quite understand and the factory reps
could not explain.

1. The heat extracted by the radiator is blown straight back on to the
source. How does that work? LOL


a. If air is going into the radiator and engine compartment, it
is also going out.

b. The air going through the radiator is still cooler than
the engine (so it is not adding heat to the engine).

2. I'm not sure how electric fuel pumps work to day but in the 70's and
80's many were submerged inside the fuel tank. I disassembled an
electric fuel pump and noticed that the fuel travels through the
electric motor including the brushes. How does the vehicle not blow up
when out of fuel but loaded with gas vapors?


No oxygen = no boom.


With respect to passenger cars, none of them have a radiator
big enough to handle their peak power output. The designers
depend on the fact that drivers rarely ask for full power for
more than a few seconds (passing on a two lane road, stop light
drag races, etc). Semi trucks, which do need to produce peak
power for extended periods, have vastly larger radiators even
tho their power output isn't much more (360-430hp would be
typical).

And hence the extra electric fans that often continue to run after
engine is turned off. I can assure you that engines reach peek
operating temperatures more often when sitting in traffic in summer heat
than when putting out peek power. If it were not for those fans every
vehicle would be over heating when is stop and go traffic.


They have electric fans because it's often cheaper than belt-driven
fans (think transverse engines). As far as running after the engine
is shut off, the engine block (hence water) will continue to heat
after it's shut down (as the pistons cool).

If it weren't for the fans, engines would overheat in any mode. I had
one overheat at when it was -20F and I was cruising at 70MPH, after
the belt broke.


I don,' believe so. The fan is there to move air through the radiator when
the vehicle is not moving fast enough help the radiator cast off heat.

You very likely had more going on to cause your engine to over heat,
especially at -20. 30 or do years ago we had a brutal winter, at least
for Houston. My service advisors were writing up an abnormally large
number of over heating vehicles. We had temps that never came above
freezing for days on end. And that was with fans working perfectly fine.
The simple problem was that those vehicles antifreeze was not up to the
task and the water/ antifreeze/ coolant mixture simply froze. There was no
water circulating at all to cool the engines. With -20 degrees and the
very likely fact that your fan belt also turned the water pump you probably
had no water circulation between the radiator and engine and or your water
froze. Unless you had a strong tail wind and the 70 mph vehicle wind
speed was effectively reduced to very little, you should have had enough
air passing through the radiator. Fans do not move air through the
radiator any where near 70. Mph. It as very likely that the water pomp
stopped turning fast enough to properly circulate the cooling system
antifreeze/ coolant.

Nope. The antifreeze was good. J. Clarke nailed it. The fan belt
broke so there was no water pump, either. I know the block wasn't
frozen. The heat was full blast! ;-)

Yamaha rates my bikes engine at 188hp (from 1 liter). It has
a radiator of 14" x 10". You wouldn't need a much larger
radiator for the typical small car.

Different set up altogether. The engine is more in the open and heat is
not captured by the engine compartment found on most 4 wheel vehicles.
And especially, the engine is not working nearly as hard as a similar HP
car engine lugging around 3000+ pounds and powering AC, which BTY also
contributes heat through the condenser, and vehicles that still have PS
pumps.


The efficiency of the engines should be similar so heat out ~
mechanical power out. Of course, moving 3000# takes ten times the
energy of 300# (at least on the first order) so will require 1ox the
cooling.

But yes in ideal conditions the vehicle is, in varying less degrees,
dependent on radiator capacity.





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