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If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy

I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a
new 1 or 2

And vintage seems to be anything that just looks old. Dirt and rust
and abuse seems to make it vintage

















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Electric Comet wrote:
If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy

I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a
new 1 or 2

And vintage seems to be anything that just looks old. Dirt and rust
and abuse seems to make it vintage


It's been said before - don't sell yourself short - take a look at Harbor
Freight. Perfectly good quality saws.

--

-Mike-



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On 4/7/2015 10:42 AM, Electric Comet wrote:

If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy

I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a
new 1 or 2

And vintage seems to be anything that just looks old. Dirt and rust
and abuse seems to make it vintage


All in the eyes of the beholder. There are tools that you can buy and
use to purposely damage your fresh built piece of furniture. I think
the technique is called distressing. Some people will pay more for
experienced tools. ;~)

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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:49:43 -0400
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

It's been said before - don't sell yourself short - take a look at
Harbor Freight. Perfectly good quality saws.


point me to some good dovetail saws on HF
looked and didn'tt see any
















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"Electric Comet" wrote in message
...

If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy

I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a
new 1 or 2


I agree that many of the prices are ridiculous.

If it were me, I'd be looking at dozuki saws. They are super for dovetails
even though that isn't their specific purpose. (There is another, smaller
one - forget the name - specifically for that purpose).

They may not serve for tenons due to the depth of cut being limited by the
spine. One could cut go as deep as possible and finish with a kataba or
flush cut, no spine on either.

If you are interested in them, be aware that some are for rip, others for
crosscut; number of TPI varies too. AFAIK, they are mostly for softwoods
but I use them on hardwood too. The teeth are very hard and therefore
brittle, can be broken off if one isn't careful.

Prices vary widely. I used to buy them for $15-$20, see them on eBay now
for $35-$50 which is about the same adjusting for inflation. One could also
pay a ton more but I wouldn't, YMMV.

--

dadiOH
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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 11:50:16 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
Electric Comet wrote:
If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy

I thought i'd find a used saw for cheap but now I am gonna get a
new 1 or 2

And vintage seems to be anything that just looks old. Dirt and rust
and abuse seems to make it vintage


It's been said before - don't sell yourself short - take a look at Harbor
Freight. Perfectly good quality saws.

--

-Mike-


Warning: Phrasing Police In The Vicinity

What does "don't sell yourself short" have to do with buying tools at HF?

Shouldn't it be "don't sell Harbor Freight short" since it's the quality of HF tools you are referring to, not the quality or abilities of Electric Comet?
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 13:02:16 -0400, dadiOH wrote:

I agree that many of the prices are ridiculous.

If it were me, I'd be looking at dozuki saws. They are super for
dovetails even though that isn't their specific purpose. (There is
another, smaller one - forget the name - specifically for that purpose).


I second that suggestion. Thinner kerf = less effort = faster cutting.
And once you get used to the pull instead of push you'll love it.

BTW, get one with replaceable blades - sharpening a Japanese saw is a job
for an expert. But they last a long time.

Here's the one I've used for years:

http://www.amazon.com/Rockler-Dozuki.../dp/B001DSY7G6

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Electric Comet writes:

If you look at what's for sale new or used some of the prices are
ridiculous

i guess enough people think that a wood handle and saw blade should
fetch lots of money

And "vintage" saws on ebay and bonanza must be inflated due to some
collector frenzy


complain, complain, complain.

There are reasons that some "vintage" saws command higher
prices, starting with the quality of the steel in the blade,
the stiffness of the back (back/tenon/dovetail), the thickness
and taper of the blade, the set, the tooth grind (rip, crosscut) and
not to be discounted, appearance.

That said, for amateur dovetails, get a stanley dovetail saw
from home depot or lowes for a few bucks; take a ball-peen
hammer and an anvil (or the anvil on a bench vise) and carefully
reduce the set, evenly on both sides. Don't remove the set
entirely, but minimize it. Then test the saw in some end-grain;
if it doesn't follow your line, the set is probably asymmetric and
you'll need to adjust as necessary.

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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 13:02:16 -0400
"dadiOH" wrote:

I agree that many of the prices are ridiculous.


but it turns in my favor because now I won't bother with a used saw
i am looking new only


If it were me, I'd be looking at dozuki saws. They are super for
dovetails even though that isn't their specific purpose. (There is
another, smaller one - forget the name - specifically for that
purpose).


Yes I see some of these and might try one


They may not serve for tenons due to the depth of cut being limited
by the spine. One could cut go as deep as possible and finish with a
kataba or flush cut, no spine on either.


just looking at oding dovetails for now


Prices vary widely. I used to buy them for $15-$20, see them on eBay
now for $35-$50 which is about the same adjusting for inflation. One
could also pay a ton more but I wouldn't, YMMV.


new ones aree cheaper I'm finding
























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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:16:29 +0000 (UTC)
Larry Blanchard wrote:

BTW, get one with replaceable blades - sharpening a Japanese saw is a
job for an expert. But they last a long time.


was concerned about the sharpening after looking at the blade closeup
like to be able to sharpen them myself
still leaves options though
















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On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 11:05:59 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

All in the eyes of the beholder. There are tools that you can buy
and use to purposely damage your fresh built piece of furniture. I
think the technique is called distressing. Some people will pay more
for experienced tools. ;~)


counterfeiting is another word that would describe it

Some saw sellers seem to be capable of time travel as they have an
endless supply of "vintage" saws



















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Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:49:43 -0400
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

It's been said before - don't sell yourself short - take a look at
Harbor Freight. Perfectly good quality saws.


point me to some good dovetail saws on HF
looked and didn'tt see any


There might not be any that are specifically dovetail saws but there are
saws that would make a good saw for dovetails. Here's one:

http://www.harborfreight.com/10-inch...saw-94722.html

Another:

http://www.harborfreight.com/12-in-f...saw-39273.html


--

-Mike-



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On 4/7/2015 12:57 PM, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 11:05:59 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

All in the eyes of the beholder. There are tools that you can buy
and use to purposely damage your fresh built piece of furniture. I
think the technique is called distressing. Some people will pay more
for experienced tools. ;~)


counterfeiting is another word that would describe it

Some saw sellers seem to be capable of time travel as they have an
endless supply of "vintage" saws


I understand. In this day and age where you can now build heirloom
furniture.... Like building an antique. The fact that time is no longer
a factor in the equation to determine if something has proven itself or not.

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Electric Comet writes:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 17:21:14 GMT
(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

complain, complain, complain.


no
confirmed observations
you can check your self


I have confirmed that you like to complain.



That said, for amateur dovetails, get a stanley dovetail saw
from home depot or lowes for a few bucks; take a ball-peen
hammer and an anvil (or the anvil on a bench vise) and carefully
reduce the set, evenly on both sides. Don't remove the set
entirely, but minimize it. Then test the saw in some end-grain;
if it doesn't follow your line, the set is probably asymmetric and
you'll need to adjust as necessary.


have watched some videos on setting the saw
it gets hard to do with higher number of points per inch
need to break out the magnifier


If you do as I suggested, you won't need a saw set. Just a
hammer and a flat surface is sufficient to _reduce_ the set.

The set on mass-produced dovetail saws is excessive and generally
uneven. It's pretty simple to reduce the set with a hammer.




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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 1:59:02 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 11:05:59 -0500
Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

All in the eyes of the beholder. There are tools that you can buy
and use to purposely damage your fresh built piece of furniture. I
think the technique is called distressing. Some people will pay more
for experienced tools. ;~)


counterfeiting is another word that would describe it


I disagree.

The common definition of counterfeiting is:

"Counterfeiting is the practice of manufacturing goods, often of inferior quality, and selling them under a brand name without the brand owner's authorization."

"Distressing" is nothing more than a type of finishing:

"Distressing (or weathered look) in the decorative arts is the activity of making a piece of furniture or object appear aged and older, giving it a "weathered look..."

If I build a new chair, distress it and then try to pass it off as a c-1920 Stickley, then I am guilty of counterfeiting. However, if I simply make that new chair look old - and don't try to sell it as an brand named antique - I'm guilty of nothing.

What is somewhat misleading in that definition of distressing is the fact that distressing is often used to make an old object look it's correct age after being refinished. Yes, while you are making the newly refinished object *appear* "older", which is true to the wording in the definition, in reality you are not trying to make a "new" object appear "old", since it actually is. I've done both: made new objects look old and made old objects look new and then made them look old again.


Some saw sellers seem to be capable of time travel as they have an
endless supply of "vintage" saws



Maybe that's because there are a lot more old tools than new simply because for so many, many years hand tools were the only tools available. Think about how long dovetails have been being made and for how short a time (relatively speaking) that they have been able to be made without the use of a hand saw. Hundreds of years of hand saws being the only option makes for an awful large inventory.
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"Electric Comet" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:16:29 +0000 (UTC)
Larry Blanchard wrote:

BTW, get one with replaceable blades - sharpening a Japanese saw is a
job for an expert. But they last a long time.


was concerned about the sharpening after looking at the blade closeup
like to be able to sharpen them myself
still leaves options though


There are "feather" files for that purpose. Easily available, here are
some...
http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/pag...,43089&p=32951

Personally, I would never bother sharpening one. First of all, there are
200+ teeth; secondly, the steel is very hard and it will be a long time
before they need sharpening. I still use (occasionly) one I bought 40 years
ago. I have others too but it is my favorite...missing some teeth near the
heel so I just don't use that part.

--

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____________________________

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On Tue, 07 Apr 2015 18:36:21 GMT
(Scott Lurndal) wrote:

If you do as I suggested, you won't need a saw set. Just a


no saw set mentioned only saw setting



















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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I disagree.


ok when you come back from the weeds

if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's
counterfeiting
















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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 14:16:44 -0400
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

There might not be any that are specifically dovetail saws but there
are saws that would make a good saw for dovetails. Here's one:


ok you're the one always pom-pom for HF!! I knew there was someone here
it's fine
I get they flyers all the time but still haven't been compleled enough


those saws
no I don't think so


















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On Tuesday, April 7, 2015 at 3:45:03 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 11:53:29 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

I disagree.


ok when you come back from the weeds

if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's
counterfeiting


Nope.
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Electric Comet wrote in news:mg15n8$s79$10
@dont-email.me:

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 17:16:29 +0000 (UTC)
Larry Blanchard wrote:

BTW, get one with replaceable blades - sharpening a Japanese saw is a
job for an expert. But they last a long time.


was concerned about the sharpening after looking at the blade closeup
like to be able to sharpen them myself
still leaves options though


Since you mention this, and you also mentioned setting teeth,
be aware that any saw you buy at Harbor Freight, Home Depot,
etc, likely has hardened teeth that you cannot sharpen; nor
can you set them (they'll break off), altho you can reduce
the set as has been suggested.

(I agree with you on the price of "antique" tools, but that's
because most sellers are not knowledgeable, and just copy the
price they see on someone else's website for something that
looks similar. That problem exists for pretty much anything
antique, not just tools).

John
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 21:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Since you mention this, and you also mentioned setting teeth,
be aware that any saw you buy at Harbor Freight, Home Depot,
etc, likely has hardened teeth that you cannot sharpen; nor


How do I tell if they are hardened
or is the correct word here tempered


can you set them (they'll break off), altho you can reduce
the set as has been suggested.


I'd likely break them off trying to alter the set


(I agree with you on the price of "antique" tools, but that's
because most sellers are not knowledgeable, and just copy the
price they see on someone else's website for something that
looks similar. That problem exists for pretty much anything
antique, not just tools).


I did look at prices for completed auctions and the prices are
too high for me.

There are a lot of unsavvy sellers that do those things and worse
maybe unsavvy is generous


Another interesting thing I've seen on ebay is that prices for veritas
things sell very close to new prices and I think I saw one sell for
more

Auction frenzy syndrome
















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John McCoy writes:

(I agree with you on the price of "antique" tools, but that's
because most sellers are not knowledgeable, and just copy the
price they see on someone else's website for something that
looks similar. That problem exists for pretty much anything
antique, not just tools).


I've had better luck at flea markets and garage sales. Most
recently, a pristine stanley sweetheart (manuf by Disston) 24" back saw
for $10.
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an important aspect of this

pull out your nearest 18 point saw and look at the set
I can just make it out but to alter or reset or sharpen I'd definitely
need magnification

that makes the jobs a lot harder for sure
I'll have to rig something up to do this right




















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Electric Comet wrote in news:mg1ngt$mkb$1
@dont-email.me:

On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 21:31:42 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Since you mention this, and you also mentioned setting teeth,
be aware that any saw you buy at Harbor Freight, Home Depot,
etc, likely has hardened teeth that you cannot sharpen; nor


How do I tell if they are hardened
or is the correct word here tempered


Hardened is the correct word - in fact, I think the process
used is called "induction hardening". As far as I know, all
mass-production saws are made that way today (i.e. Stanley,
Disston, Lenox, etc - anything you'd get at Home Depot or
Lowes). The way you tell is to try filing one - a hardened
tooth is as hard as a file, so the file won't cut it (or,
you could on the makers website, which probably says).

John
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 18:01:53 +0000 (UTC)
John McCoy wrote:

Hardened is the correct word - in fact, I think the process
used is called "induction hardening". As far as I know, all
mass-production saws are made that way today (i.e. Stanley,
Disston, Lenox, etc - anything you'd get at Home Depot or
Lowes). The way you tell is to try filing one - a hardened
tooth is as hard as a file, so the file won't cut it (or,
you could on the makers website, which probably says).


ok
so grinding will work but not filing
I have a dremel somewhere

funny thing is I have some cheap turning gouges that are made
with softer steel and i find myself using them more than my
other HSS gouges

why because i can put a file on them or even emory cloth
and keep them sharp so i can keep turning with minor interruption


















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John McCoy writes:
(Scott Lurndal) wrote in news:9W9Vw.220459$IH4.137234
:

I've had better luck at flea markets and garage sales. Most
recently, a pristine stanley sweetheart (manuf by Disston) 24" back saw
for $10.


Likewise - my favorite crosscut saw is a Disston with a
cosmetically challenged handle, that came from a flea market.
Even with my inexperienced sharpening, it cuts very well.
According to the Disston medallion site, it's around a
WW1 vintage.

I also have a 24" backsaw like yours, which unfortunately
lost it's miterbox a long time ago. One of these days I'll
feel up to trying to sharpen it. It's an impressive looking
thing compared to a modern backsaw.



I have a stanley #100 (from before stanley bought the company
that made them) which works quite well with the 24" backsaw.

http://5.forums.drupal.assets.taunto...1/img_5244.jpg

Perfect for picture framing.
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On Wed, 08 Apr 2015 13:20:05 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

I've had better luck at flea markets and garage sales. Most recently, a
pristine stanley sweetheart (manuf by Disston) 24" back saw for $10.


Disstons are great saws, but they seem to be rust magnets. Not to
mention they are a gleam in every collectors eye. If you find one
labelled "Disston & Son" (no, not "Sons") grab it - they're rare!

Oh, about that propensity to rust. My favorite old saw is an Atkins
"Silver Steel" saw. Must be some forerunner of stainless steel, because
it's rare to find one with more that one or two little spots of rust.
Come to think of it, it's rare to find one, period!


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On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:28:30 +0000 (UTC)
Larry Blanchard wrote:

Disstons are great saws, but they seem to be rust magnets. Not to
mention they are a gleam in every collectors eye. If you find one
labelled "Disston & Son" (no, not "Sons") grab it - they're rare!


iron that's more pure rusts more easily, also softer
approaching %99 it's not usable for tools probably lower than that


Oh, about that propensity to rust. My favorite old saw is an Atkins
"Silver Steel" saw. Must be some forerunner of stainless steel,
because it's rare to find one with more that one or two little spots
of rust. Come to think of it, it's rare to find one, period!


Does it have silver?


















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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Nope.


unscrupulous is the word a collector used for folks like you
i agree with them they warned me about this

if you purposefully make a tool look older than it is in order to
get more money for it that's wrong and deceptive


























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On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:09:08 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 12:56:26 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Nope.


unscrupulous is the word a collector used for folks like you
i agree with them they warned me about this


Folks like me? Folks that offer definitions? What's unscrupulous about that?

if you purposefully make a tool look older than it is in order to
get more money for it that's wrong and deceptive


Not true. Purposefully making something look older than it is to get more money is not deceptive unless you also claim/imply that it is older than it is.

Remember what you said that I said "Nope" to:

"if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's counterfeiting"

Distressing an object is nothing more than a finishing technique. Granted, if someone distresses an new object and then *advertises* it as vintage/antique/circa-1888, then yes, that is unscrupulous. However, the mere distressing of an object to make it look old is neither counterfeiting nor unscrupulous. It's nothing more than a finishing technique. That was my point, and the reason for my "Nope".

If I build a new house and finish it a style that makes it look like it was built in the 1800's - including using crackle paint to make it look really old - and then offer it for sale, that is not unscrupulous. However, I try to convince someone that the house was actually built in the 1800's, then I am being unscrupulous. The same goes for tools, furniture, paintings, etc..

You need to separate the finishing technique from the words used when advertising the object for sale before you can say that the seller is being unscrupulous. You need to consider the intent of the seller. Many people will pay more money for something with a distressed finish simply because they like the way it looks. Go to any crafts show and look at the hundreds of old looking objects that are both not old and not being advertised as old. Nothing unscrupulous going on there.

Here's a perfect example. I've made a number of these for my kids and for their friends. I distressed the hash tag to make it look older than it is. There is absolutely nothing unscrupulous about making that brand new hash tag look older than it is because I never claimed it was a "vintage hash tag".. It was distressed to make it look older than it is in an attempt to blend an old communication style (the chalkboard) with the new (twitter).

https://buzzfarmers.com/wp-content/u...1.29.58-PM.png




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On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Not true. Purposefully making something look older than it is to get
more money is not deceptive unless you also claim/imply that it is
older than it is.


I meant the case where tools are claimed to be vintage or older based
upon deceptive practices. The word "vintage" is already misused on
ebay, bonanza, ecrater, etc.


Remember what you said that I said "Nope" to:

"if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's
counterfeiting"

Distressing an object is nothing more than a finishing technique.
Granted, if someone distresses an new object and then *advertises* it
as vintage/antique/circa-1888, then yes, that is unscrupulous.
However, the mere distressing of an object to make it look old is
neither counterfeiting nor unscrupulous. It's nothing more than a
finishing technique. That was my point, and the reason for my "Nope".


not for tools, for furniture it's legit

but deception is the key and if that's the intent it's wrong


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On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 10:06:03 PM UTC-4, Electric Comet wrote:
On Sat, 11 Apr 2015 18:16:43 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Not true. Purposefully making something look older than it is to get
more money is not deceptive unless you also claim/imply that it is
older than it is.


I meant the case where tools are claimed to be vintage or older based
upon deceptive practices. The word "vintage" is already misused on
ebay, bonanza, ecrater, etc.

Remember what you said that I said "Nope" to:

"if someone's distressing a tool to make it look vintage that's
counterfeiting"

Distressing an object is nothing more than a finishing technique.
Granted, if someone distresses an new object and then *advertises* it
as vintage/antique/circa-1888, then yes, that is unscrupulous.
However, the mere distressing of an object to make it look old is
neither counterfeiting nor unscrupulous. It's nothing more than a
finishing technique. That was my point, and the reason for my "Nope".


not for tools, for furniture it's legit

but deception is the key and if that's the intent it's wrong


....which is the point I've been trying to make all along. Since you now seem to agree with me, I assume you no longer consider me to be unscrupulous.

By the way, distressing can even be "legit" for tools, as long there is no intent to deceive. These tools probably *are* vintage, but if one were to make new tools look old and then display them as art, there would be nothing unscrupulous about it.

http://empressofdirt.net/wp-content/...-art-tools.jpg


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On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 12:43:37 PM UTC-7, Electric Comet wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2015 21:28:30 +0000 (UTC)
Larry Blanchard wrote:


Oh, about that propensity to rust. My favorite old saw is an Atkins
"Silver Steel" saw. Must be some forerunner of stainless steel,
because it's rare to find one with more that one or two little spots
of rust. Come to think of it, it's rare to find one, period!


Does it have silver?


Silver steel is an old (or British) name for tool steel, i.e. hardenable
high-carbon steel, O1 or A2 are typical.
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On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 20:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
DerbyDad03 wrote:

...which is the point I've been trying to make all along. Since you
now seem to agree with me, I assume you no longer consider me to be
unscrupulous.


I consider anyone trying to deceive buyers to be unscrupulous
some on ebay do so but may not even realize they are but that still
doesn't excuse them from saying they're unsure about the product

there are sellers that will take dark photos on purpose
there are sellers that will not show a defect
these are bad sellers

there are sellers that do their best to reveal all and provide
photos so the buyer can decide
they answer questions















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On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 01:38:14 -0700 (PDT)
whit3rd wrote:

Silver steel is an old (or British) name for tool steel, i.e.
hardenable high-carbon steel, O1 or A2 are typical.


i guess that explains the lack of rust



















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On Tue, 7 Apr 2015 15:02:29 -0400
"dadiOH" wrote:


There are "feather" files for that purpose. Easily available, here
are some...


I think I have one will have to look

Personally, I would never bother sharpening one. First of all, there
are 200+ teeth; secondly, the steel is very hard and it will be a
long time before they need sharpening. I still use (occasionly) one
I bought 40 years ago. I have others too but it is my
favorite...missing some teeth near the heel so I just don't use that
part.


couple seconds per tooth so let's say it takes 20-30 minutes to sharpen
that's not so bad
it's hard to find a person that will do good sharpening













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