Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

Just saw this on Lumberjocks. The guy claims that the arbor doesn't return to the same spot after a force is applied from the side. A reason for concern in my opinion. Although a side force isn't typical during normal use I would still be concerned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4PtF...m-upload_owner

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/51191

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:45:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Just saw this on Lumberjocks. The guy claims that the arbor doesn't return to the same spot after a force is applied from the side. A reason for concern in my opinion. Although a side force isn't typical during normal use I would still be concerned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4PtF...m-upload_owner http://lumberjocks.com/topics/51191

The max range of movement is .04". The "at rest" displacement (not returning to the same spot) is what, 5% of that max range? I think that is a nominal displacement. There will be no similar sideways force, during use, to recreate that max displacement and, if there was any sideways force, it would likely be much lees than what the guy applied and it would be, at least, partially countered by the spinning of the blade (gyroscopic stability).

Might want to test his caliper, also, to make sure there's no "play" in it, also.

Sonny

Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 8:58:09 AM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:45:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Just saw this on Lumberjocks. The guy claims that the arbor doesn't return to the same spot after a force is applied from the side. A reason for concern in my opinion. Although a side force isn't typical during normal use I would still be concerned. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4PtF...m-upload_owner http://lumberjocks.com/topics/51191



The max range of movement is .04". The "at rest" displacement (not returning to the same spot) is what, 5% of that max range?

You make the assumption that the "at rest" displacement is proportional to the max displacement. It might not be. It's hard to tell from the video.


I think that is a nominal displacement.

Normal for a Sawstop or normal for any saw? I haven't checked but I'm fairly certain I won't see this "jelly-like" sideways motion on my Powermatic.


There will be no similar sideways force, during use, to recreate that max displacement and, if there was any sideways force, it would likely be much lees than what the guy applied and it would be, at least, partially countered by the spinning of the blade (gyroscopic stability).


Maybe. But the force excerpted at the edge of the blade will be amplified at the arbor. Less force will be required to create the same displacement in the non-spinning blade. How much of this will be countered by gyroscopic stability? I don't know.

I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted during cove cutting might cause problems.?.



Might want to test his caliper, also, to make sure there's no "play" in it, also.



Sonny



Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:
....

I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted
during cove cutting might cause problems.?

....

Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I
still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever
notice it.

Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that
(probably) isn't...

--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 10:39 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:
...

I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted
during cove cutting might cause problems.?

...

Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I
still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever
notice it.

Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that
(probably) isn't...

--

Agreed.

Also would be interested to see how much the belts play in that. I
wonder if just starting it up returns it to normal.

The only place I see a sideways load is while coving. I don't sand with
my saw...



--
Jeff

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:

...



I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted

during cove cutting might cause problems.?



...



Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I

still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever

notice it.



Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that

(probably) isn't...

No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached.









--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:

...



I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted

during cove cutting might cause problems.?



...



Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I

still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever

notice it.



Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that

(probably) isn't...

No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached.









--

Brian have you taken your medication lately?

--
Jeff

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
....

Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that
(probably) isn't...

No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one
that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)
isn't" could be reached.
....

I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in
normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised
it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design
flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it
would have surfaced if so).

"No harm, no foul..."

==

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 11:05:55 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, wrote:

On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:

...



Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that

(probably) isn't...



No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one

that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)

isn't" could be reached.

...



I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in

normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised

it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design

flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it

would have surfaced if so).


"would have surfaced if so"

Maybe. Or maybe some owners wrongfully attribute the effects of the problem to something else.







"No harm, no foul..."



==

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 10:23 AM, wrote:
....

Maybe. Or maybe some owners wrongfully attribute the effects of the
problem to something else.

Can you even find a history of complaints that could possibly be caused
by the fault, root cause identified or not????

I thought not...

Give it a rest.

--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 11:31:25 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 10:23 AM, wrote:

...



Maybe. Or maybe some owners wrongfully attribute the effects of the

problem to something else.



Can you even find a history of complaints that could possibly be caused

by the fault, root cause identified or not????



I thought not...



Give it a rest.

I'm bringing this to the attention of Leon who owns this saw (see the Ping Leon in the subject).

You chose to debate me. If this is too technical for you and you want it to end then YOU give it a rest.








--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:


No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one
that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)
isn't" could be reached.
Brian have you taken your medication lately?

Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I missed? Not
that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can miss more these days
than I catch... but I don't see anything in Brian's reply to warrant yours.

--

-Mike-

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 11:47:40 AM UTC-4, Mike Marlow wrote:
woodchucker wrote:

On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:





No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one

that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)

isn't" could be reached.

Brian have you taken your medication lately?



Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I missed? Not

that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can miss more these days

than I catch... but I don't see anything in Brian's reply to warrant yours.

Obviously a case of psychological projection.




--



-Mike-

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:05:55 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, b On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote: ... Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that (probably) isn't... No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached. ... I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it would have surfaced if so). "No harm, no foul...." ==

And you can bet the other saw manufacturers have combed the SawStop for defects or any other abnormalities, also.

Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 11:55:51 AM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:05:55 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:

On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, b On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote: ... Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that (probably) isn't... No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached. ... I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it would have surfaced if so). "No harm, no foul...." ==



And you can bet the other saw manufacturers have combed the SawStop for defects or any other abnormalities, also.



I'd rather weight the data present and look for more than continue to make assumptions. But that's the scientist in me.




Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 9:17:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Sonny wrote: The max range of movement is .04". The "at rest" displacement (not returning to the same spot) is what, 5% of that max range?


wrote:
You make the assumption that the "at rest" displacement is proportional to the max displacement.

No, it is not proportional. I pointed out the estimated % displacement the guy was showing for his numbers. If he had applied more pressure, the estimated % at rest dislacement would be less. Part of his validating that his evaluations are completly trustworthy, also, depends on his validating that his caliper is accurate.

No matter, in either case, I suspect both his SawStop and caliper are working normally, reasonably, within their limits and/or tolerances.

Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 11:00 AM, wrote:
....

I'd rather weight the data present and look for more than continue
to make assumptions. But that's the scientist in me.

More like you're making the assumptions on the lack of any substantive
data... :(

--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 12:29:16 PM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 11:00 AM, wrote:

...



I'd rather weight the data present and look for more than continue

to make assumptions. But that's the scientist in me.



More like you're making the assumptions on the lack of any substantive

data... :(

Hmmm. I had to go back and read my comments.

I think I made my point very clear:

"It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion...could be reached."

Hey wait a sec, I thought you wanted this debate to "rest"?













--

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 11:47 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:


No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one
that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)
isn't" could be reached.
Brian have you taken your medication lately?

Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I missed? Not
that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can miss more these days
than I catch... but I don't see anything in Brian's reply to warrant yours.

Just that he is being very aggressive compared to his normal nice guy
approach, either the lack of job, or depression is setting in...

or both.. I've been out of work for 6 months at a time, I know how it
screws with your head.

Being a Chemist, Brian is experiencing a major off shoring... Like many
other jobs... it may be playing a part in his crankiness

--
Jeff

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 12:09:49 PM UTC-4, Sonny wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 9:17:09 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Sonny wrote: The max range of movement is .04". The "at rest" displacement (not returning to the same spot) is what, 5% of that max range?





wrote:

You make the assumption that the "at rest" displacement is proportional to the max displacement.



No, it is not proportional. I pointed out the estimated % displacement the guy was showing for his numbers. If he had applied more pressure, the estimated % at rest dislacement would be less.

And because it's not proportional, less force applied could achieve the same amount or close to the same amount of rest displacement as the larger force.

Again, more data is needed and the concern is warranted.


Part of his validating that his evaluations are completly trustworthy, also, depends on his validating that his caliper is accurate.




No matter, in either case, I suspect both his SawStop and caliper are working normally, reasonably, within their limits and/or tolerances.


Assumption.



Sonny

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Friday, July 5, 2013 2:00:57 PM UTC-4, woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 11:47 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:

woodchucker wrote:

On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:





No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one

that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)

isn't" could be reached.

Brian have you taken your medication lately?



Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I missed? Not

that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can miss more these days

than I catch... but I don't see anything in Brian's reply to warrant yours.



Just that he is being very aggressive compared to his normal nice guy


Pot meet kettle.

approach, either the lack of job, or depression is setting in...



or both.. I've been out of work for 6 months at a time, I know how it

screws with your head.



Being a Chemist, Brian is experiencing a major off shoring... Like many

other jobs... it may be playing a part in his crankiness



--

Jeff

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On Fri, 5 Jul 2013 08:55:51 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:05:55 AM UTC-5, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, b On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote: ... Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that (probably) isn't... No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached. ... I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it would have surfaced if so). "No harm, no foul..." ==

And you can bet the other saw manufacturers have combed the SawStop for defects or any other abnormalities, also.

Sonny


And then they got some loony to make a video raising doubt in the
minds of others. Nice subversive marketing.

Lets get to the facts. If you take a SawStop home in the back of a
Toyota, the accelerator will suddenly take over and make you car go
very fast and crash. Properly set up and anchored, the SawStop can
prevent your Audi from accelerating and crashing through the back of
the garage.

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 11:47 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:


Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I
missed? Not that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can
miss more these days than I catch... but I don't see anything in
Brian's reply to warrant yours.
Just that he is being very aggressive compared to his normal nice guy
approach, either the lack of job, or depression is setting in...


What do you mean by stating that Brian is being complsive, completely anal
retentive, obnoxious, and more than just a little revolting? Hell - he's
innocent of at least one of those traits. I think... Unless, I missed
something...

Really - I guess that is how it goes. We hit points in our lives - all of
us, where we don't work so well in a forum like this - whether it's the OP
or the responder. Not that I've ever been guilty of such a thing...


--

-Mike-

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/4/2013 10:45 PM, wrote:
Just saw this on Lumberjocks. The guy claims that the arbor doesn't return to the same spot after a force is applied from the side. A reason for concern in my opinion. Although a side force isn't typical during normal use I would still be concerned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4PtF...m-upload_owner

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/51191



I am not real familiar with that particular SawStop, It is the
Pro/hybrid version, basically the bottom end unit. Mine is the ICS,
Industrial cabinet saw.

I am wondering why SawStop has not been contacted. There are bolts that
can be loosened and if they are loosened this will happen. Most any saw
will be sloppy if every thing is not tight. The whole assembly is
moving, I even see the brake moving. His arbor is not the moving by it
self, it is the whole carriage. Basically what is moving is the
adjustment to make takes care of setting to keep the blade parallel to
the miter slot when the blade is tilted. Older TS,s uses shims between
the table top and the cabinet. The SawStop and perhaps even yours use a
different method for this adjustment. It is basically how the Euro
style saws are adjusted.

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 9:39 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:
...

I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted
during cove cutting might cause problems.?

...

Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I
still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever
notice it.

Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that
(probably) isn't...

--
I kind'a agree, another one of those areas, like discoloration in the
table top is probably not going to affect performance. He is probably
being too AR and or not understanding why the Malibu cant keep up with
the Corvette. ;~) He has a contractors saw wrapped in a cabinet.

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:17 AM, wrote:

...



I still think it's reason for concern. The sideways forces exerted

during cove cutting might cause problems.?



...



Only place I can think of it would seem potential a problem and there I

still wouldn't expect it to be an actual issue that one would ever

notice it.



Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that

(probably) isn't...

No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably) isn't" could be reached.



It is a valid concern but he has shown it to SawStop and they were not
concerned. And no the SawStop people don't dismiss because of
indifference or ignorance of their product. FWIW, this 1.75hp PCS saw
is their basic entry level portable saw made stationary inside a
cabinet. That cabinet is basically the only similarity to a "full blown
cabinet saw".

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 1:00 PM, woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 11:47 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
woodchucker wrote:
On 7/5/2013 10:49 AM, wrote:


No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one
that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)
isn't" could be reached.
Brian have you taken your medication lately?

Holy cow Jeff - did you see something in Brian's reply that I missed?
Not
that it would be such a far fetched notion, since I can miss more
these days
than I catch... but I don't see anything in Brian's reply to warrant
yours.

Just that he is being very aggressive compared to his normal nice guy
approach, either the lack of job, or depression is setting in...

or both.. I've been out of work for 6 months at a time, I know how it
screws with your head.

Being a Chemist, Brian is experiencing a major off shoring... Like many
other jobs... it may be playing a part in his crankiness



Do you moon light as a psychological analyst?

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 10:05 AM, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 9:49 AM, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 10:39:24 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
...

Looks to me like going out of way to try to find a problem that
(probably) isn't...

No. It's a valid concern raised by the owner in the video and one
that would require more data before a conclusion of "(probably)
isn't" could be reached.
...

I'd contend it's not a problem until the owner can show a real effect in
normal usage (which hasn't done and afaik no other SS owner has raised
it as an operational fault--certainly if it were a fundamental design
flaw there are enough of them out there and have been for long enough it
would have surfaced if so).

"No harm, no foul..."

==
Agree again, Consider this however, I have seen really good blades
move that much on start up. Basically the blades have more give.

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 10:41 AM, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 11:31:25 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
On 7/5/2013 10:23 AM, wrote:

...



Maybe. Or maybe some owners wrongfully attribute the effects of the

problem to something else.



Can you even find a history of complaints that could possibly be caused

by the fault, root cause identified or not????



I thought not...



Give it a rest.

I'm bringing this to the attention of Leon who owns this saw (see the Ping Leon in the subject).


I do not own this saw, I have the ICS. It would be like comparing your
saw to the PM Artisan.

Ping Leon - Sawstop problem?
 

On 7/5/2013 4:07 PM, Leon wrote:
On 7/4/2013 10:45 PM, wrote:
Just saw this on Lumberjocks. The guy claims that the arbor doesn't
return to the same spot after a force is applied from the side. A
reason for concern in my opinion. Although a side force isn't typical
during normal use I would still be concerned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4PtF...m-upload_owner

http://lumberjocks.com/topics/51191



I am not real familiar with that particular SawStop, It is the
Pro/hybrid version, basically the bottom end unit. Mine is the ICS,
Industrial cabinet saw.

I am wondering why SawStop has not been contacted. There are bolts that
can be loosened and if they are loosened this will happen. Most any saw
will be sloppy if every thing is not tight. The whole assembly is
moving, I even see the brake moving. His arbor is not the moving by it
self, it is the whole carriage. Basically what is moving is the
adjustment to make takes care of setting to keep the blade parallel to
the miter slot when the blade is tilted. Older TS,s uses shims between
the table top and the cabinet. The SawStop and perhaps even yours use a
different method for this adjustment. It is basically how the Euro
style saws are adjusted.


To follow up a bit and after looking around a bit. I would be willing
to bet that when he pushes on the arbor that the back and or front of
the cabinet is flexing too. I think the play is the give in the cabinet
area that the trunnion sets on. This is one of the reasons many move up
to a full blown cabinet saw with much larger/wider trunnion to cabinet
contact point. My old Craftsman contractors saw bevel angle would
change if you pushed in on the right side of the saw under the table.

My ICS Saw stop has trunnion mounts that are the entire width of the saw
cabinet, front and back. The table bolts directly to the trunnion
mounts so if the cabinet flexes and or has any movement the trunnions
and table move as a unit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb1121...n/photostream/