|
So when is the finishing finished?
Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl.
But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. |
So when is the finishing finished?
Greg Guarino wrote:
Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl. But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. Wiping varnish is thin naturally and three even more thinned coats doesn't afford much protection; however, a bookcase doesn't *need* much protection so stop when you like it. FWIW, I figure four coats of unthinned oil poly for floors, three for anything else that gets some wear. With brushing lacquer I usually use three, sand heavily and then two more. For outside stuff with alkyd varnish, 6-7. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 7:15 AM, dadiOH wrote:
Wiping varnish is thin naturally and three even more thinned coats doesn't afford much protection Just to be clear, I took "regular" (not "wiping") MinWax Satin Poly and thinned it down. |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 8:28 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 3/18/2013 7:15 AM, dadiOH wrote: Wiping varnish is thin naturally and three even more thinned coats doesn't afford much protection Just to be clear, I took "regular" (not "wiping") MinWax Satin Poly and thinned it down. Yeahbut.... thin is thin. Does it make any difference whether you thinned it or MinWax did? Granted, you may not have thinned it as much (or maybe you thinned it more), but when all's said and done, you've wiped on a thinner coating than you'd have laid on with a brush or spray. |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 10:04 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 3/18/2013 8:28 AM, Greg Guarino wrote: On 3/18/2013 7:15 AM, dadiOH wrote: Wiping varnish is thin naturally and three even more thinned coats doesn't afford much protection Just to be clear, I took "regular" (not "wiping") MinWax Satin Poly and thinned it down. Yeahbut.... thin is thin. Does it make any difference whether you thinned it or MinWax did? Granted, you may not have thinned it as much (or maybe you thinned it more), but when all's said and done, you've wiped on a thinner coating than you'd have laid on with a brush or spray. I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. |
So when is the finishing finished?
"Greg Guarino" wrote: I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. ---------------------------------------------------- If you have to ask, you probably already know the answer. Your gut rules. If it were mine, my gut says 3-4 more coats. No good reason, just my gut. Lew |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 9:35 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:
On 3/18/2013 10:04 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote: Yeahbut.... thin is thin. Does it make any difference whether you thinned it or MinWax did? Granted, you may not have thinned it as much (or maybe you thinned it more), but when all's said and done, you've wiped on a thinner coating than you'd have laid on with a brush or spray. I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. As Lew says, go with your gut. Frinstance... I finished an 8/4 solid oak surround for a bar top (think frame with the field being ceramic tile) ~ 27 yrs ago with a gel satin poly varnish. I gave it, IIRC, 3 coats with light steel wool and tack cloth in between coats 2 & 3. This was followed up by a re-coat, with MinWax wiping poly a year or so ago simply because I was touching up another piece in close proximity. Didn't need it but the whole shebang looks as it did when I first finished it. So many variables come into play with your project (and all projects, really). Is it going to be exposed to direct sunlight? Are you using it or are the kids? etc. In any event, if you think you're done with the face frame and sides, you're probably not quite done with the top of the shelves (think wear points). IOW, go with your gut and common senseg |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 9:43 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Greg Guarino" wrote: I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. ---------------------------------------------------- If you have to ask, you probably already know the answer. Your gut rules. If it were mine, my gut says 3-4 more coats. No good reason, just my gut. +1 (more coat) ;) -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 1:51 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/18/2013 9:43 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote: "Greg Guarino" wrote: I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. ---------------------------------------------------- If you have to ask, you probably already know the answer. Your gut rules. If it were mine, my gut says 3-4 more coats. No good reason, just my gut. +1 (more coat) ;) Do you mean 1 more than I have done (a total of 4) or one more on top of Lew's "3-4 more" (a total of 7 or 8)? In either case, is that because I do not yet have sufficient finish to protect the wood? |
So when is the finishing finished?
Greg Guarino wrote:
Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl. But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. Anything can be improved with just one more tweak. |
So when is the finishing finished?
Greg Guarino wrote:
On 3/18/2013 1:51 PM, Swingman wrote: On 3/18/2013 9:43 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote: "Greg Guarino" wrote: I think DadiOh might have thought that I had taken Wiping Poly (already thinned) and thinned it further. I make no claim that three coats is "enough" because I don't know; hence my original question. ---------------------------------------------------- If you have to ask, you probably already know the answer. Your gut rules. If it were mine, my gut says 3-4 more coats. No good reason, just my gut. +1 (more coat) ;) Do you mean 1 more than I have done (a total of 4) or one more on top of Lew's "3-4 more" (a total of 7 or 8)? In either case, is that because I do not yet have sufficient finish to protect the wood? Four coats is generally the cutoff point where the need, or lack thereof, for one more coat becomes a gut feeling. -- www.ewoodshop.com (Mobile) |
So when is the finishing finished?
On Sunday, March 17, 2013 9:41:13 PM UTC-7, Greg Guarino wrote:
Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl. But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. You're done. After the second coat you have a finish that will last a lifetime unless it is a bowling ally or highly used table top or other high traffic surface. Poly is so damed tough once that first coat soaks in. the second starts building. That's why when I do wipe, I flood the first coat with a brush, then wiper down. Splash some water on it, you will answer your own question. It is now plastic. |
So when is the finishing finished?
|
So when is the finishing finished?
"Greg Guarino" wrote:
Do you mean 1 more than I have done (a total of 4) or one more on top of Lew's "3-4 more" (a total of 7 or 8)? In either case, is that because I do not yet have sufficient finish to protect the wood? ------------------------------------------------ What does your gut tell you? By your own description, you are applying 1/2 coat at a time. Lew |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/18/2013 6:48 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:
You're done. After the second coat you have a finish that will last a lifetime unless it is a bowling ally or highly used table top or other high traffic surface. Not necessarily. "Thinning", which he admitted to doing by approximately 50%, simply means the layers of poly he applied were 50% thinner, meaning more layers/coats are need to be applied to reach the same level of protection as the unthinned product. When contracting for a polyurethane hardwood floor finish I spec four coats when "thinning" up to a maximum of 25%. In his situation about the only benefit of thinning the poly is faster drying. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
So when is the finishing finished?
"Greg Guarino" wrote in message
... Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl. But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. For things like this my rule of thumb is to apply two more coats than it takes to end up with a flat finish... For example, if it takes 4 sanded coats to get the finish flat and the grain filled then I add two more. This as the finish can be real thin in areas once flattened so the two additional coats gives at least that much finish on the whole surface. The species of wood influences this to a great degree... in my experience red oak takes a lot more coats to level and fill than does cherry or maple... walnut is generally somewhere in between. Note that I only use a thinned coat for the first coat... everything after that is not thinned. With thinned coats for all coats your build will be less per coat so more will be needed... John |
So when is the finishing finished?
With thinned coats for all coats your build will be
less per coat so more will be needed... John It is not really appropriate to build for a flat surface using a film finish (varnish, lacquer, shellac, poly). If you want flatness then use grain filler. Finishes that thick will crack\craze over time most likely. If you are applying enough finish to flatten red oak you have developed a slab of plastic over the wood. I finish cherry with a few coats of wipe on poly and until I wax it, you can still feel the grain even after sanding the wood initially with 320. |
So when is the finishing finished?
On Mar 19, 9:08*am, Swingman wrote:
On 3/18/2013 6:48 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: You're done. After the second coat you have a finish that will last a lifetime unless it is a bowling ally or highly used table top or other high traffic surface. Not necessarily. Not necessarily, indeed. "Thinning", which he admitted to doing by approximately 50%, simply means the layers of poly he applied were 50% thinner, meaning more layers/coats are need to be applied to reach the same level of protection as the unthinned product. Important to remember here is the method of application. I read this over and over here and this is what I get from it. "I flooded the surface and wiped off all the finish I could until it looked smooth." Using jersey cloth you can easily get the finish left behind to 1 mil. of thickness. Using the average MSDS data, when the carriers and solvents leave the unthinned product, the coating will shrink in thickness about 66%. So if one has thinned it further on their own, they will get 1/2 (from thinning at the shop) the amount of 2/3rds thickness less (remaining thickness after normal drying of unthinned product), or 1/6th the amount of thickness recommended by the manufacturer. You now have what is known as a "dust coat". Further application of thinned product in the same manner will increase the thickness only marginally, so one may now have as much as 1/3 the amount of finish recommended by a manufacturer. But really, do you? Probably not. The initial coating of finish will get more "traction" and will more readily adhere to the surface. However, the second coat will face a smoother, almost sealed surface and your application method of applying thin coats with a rag can leave as little as .5 mil coating behind. Figure in the shrinkage of the thickness after the solvents and carriers are gone... When contracting for a polyurethane hardwood floor finish I spec four coats when "thinning" up to a maximum of 25%. I would submit to you that it is not an apples to apple comparison. In your situation, in my opinion, yours is exactly what is needed. Their are two huge differences. First, your flooring guy doesn't put down a few gallons of finish, then attempt to wipe off most of it. Flooring urethanes are formulated different, and without thinning they are almost impossible to get the correct layout of the product. They are made to be thinned, probably to the 20% range. (NO ONE could detect a 5% differential... probably not even a lab.) Second, in an exactly controlled application as you speak, if you thin all coats 25%, but put on 4 coats the manufacturers application thickness requirement, you are exactly where you need to be when finished. Perfect. In his situation about the only benefit of thinning the poly is faster drying. Absolutely true. Thin coats of product do not provide adequate UV protection (think down lights, tables by windows, etc.) nor do they provide more than the smallest amount of abrasion resistance. These are finishes for extremely light use such as in the homes of older adults with no kids (and no drinking or eating buddies) and for pieces to be admired. Easy to put on, nice to look at, but little utility value. Robert |
So when is the finishing finished?
"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
... With thinned coats for all coats your build will be less per coat so more will be needed... John It is not really appropriate to build for a flat surface using a film finish (varnish, lacquer, shellac, poly). If you want flatness then use grain filler. Finishes that thick will crack\craze over time most likely. If you are applying enough finish to flatten red oak you have developed a slab of plastic over the wood. I finish cherry with a few coats of wipe on poly and until I wax it, you can still feel the grain even after sanding the wood initially with 320. I guess this is an "it depends" situation and a matter of what is considered finishing and what is considered preparation... As such, perhaps I should have been more explicit. There are degrees of flatness and degrees of finish thickness. If a surface is really uneven, an extreme example being over-sanded pine, or hasn't been grain filled, then it would take a lot of finish to flatten it. I don't see either of those situations as a finishing problem, rather they are a preparation problem. On the other hand, well flattened and, if needed, grain filled raw wood can still have slight unevenness that can be flattened in the finishing process. Often times this slight unevenness is not noticeable until there is some finish on the piece. In these cases most of the finish is removed when sanding between coats and the final finish thickness is quite thin. Even under these circumstance I find differences across species of wood but I've never had problems in these cases... On the other hand, dumping on a thick coat of finish, as you note, is a recipe for future problems! I've seen finishes so thick on some pieces that it looked like there was a piece of plastic over the top of the wood... I have to imagine that they didn't look so good as they aged! |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/19/2013 10:08 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/18/2013 6:48 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: You're done. After the second coat you have a finish that will last a lifetime unless it is a bowling ally or highly used table top or other high traffic surface. Not necessarily. "Thinning", which he admitted to doing by approximately 50%, simply means the layers of poly he applied were 50% thinner, meaning more layers/coats are need to be applied to reach the same level of protection as the unthinned product. When contracting for a polyurethane hardwood floor finish I spec four coats when "thinning" up to a maximum of 25%. In his situation about the only benefit of thinning the poly is faster drying. As usual, I'm confused. I have read that "wiping poly" is a popular and relatively foolproof method of finishing. "Fool-proof" has an attractive sound to it for a project with a lot of surface area to cover and me (yes, the "fool") in charge of the application. I'm at least theoretically willing to experiment with more sophisticated approaches, but not when I'm finishing the better part of four sheets of plywood (plus the face frames). My sense of it is (or at least *was*) that the thinned product, coupled with the "wiping" application method, helps give a smooth even finish without the need for much expertise. No brush marks, no puddles, no bubbles. And in fact, I am quite pleased with the finish I got on the bookcase boxes. It's smooth, even and doesn't look at all "plastic-y" or thick. Could I really have gotten similar results with half as many coats of the full-strength poly? I have done that in the past and have not gotten as nice-looking a finish as I'm seeing now. |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/19/2013 2:58 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:
And in fact, I am quite pleased with the finish I got on the bookcase boxes. It's smooth, even and doesn't look at all "plastic-y" or thick. Could I really have gotten similar results with half as many coats of the full-strength poly? I have done that in the past and have not gotten as nice-looking a finish as I'm seeing now. Nothing else matters ... absolutely _nothing_. ;) -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
So when is the finishing finished?
On 3/19/2013 6:13 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/19/2013 2:58 PM, Greg Guarino wrote: And in fact, I am quite pleased with the finish I got on the bookcase boxes. It's smooth, even and doesn't look at all "plastic-y" or thick. Could I really have gotten similar results with half as many coats of the full-strength poly? I have done that in the past and have not gotten as nice-looking a finish as I'm seeing now. Nothing else matters ... absolutely _nothing_. ;) +1 My take, too...it's not a for-sale piece where he's got to worry about a customer down the road. And, time will tell if there's a problem of insufficient thickness and it'll be soon enough then to touch it up... -- |
So when is the finishing finished?
On Mar 19, 6:13*pm, Swingman wrote:
Nothing else matters ... absolutely _nothing_. ;) What could be more true? If you are happy and the finish hits all your requirements, then you are in the perfect spot. I have seen folks finish wood projects with non boiled linseed oil mixed with some kind of solvent or more resins and be thrilled. Looked great, and for the use of the piece, it was a good match. No doubt you can match the finish to the project without help. I hope you didn't think I was lecturing; not my intent. BUT.... (had to be one, right?) if you have a test piece of the same wood with the same finish and amount of coats on it, then you can easily test for final coat durability and appearance. You can add another coat as needed, or if it fits the bill the way it is, you are finished. (No pun intended...) Robert |
So when is the finishing finished?
On Sun, 17 Mar 2013 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT), Greg Guarino
wrote: Life has gotten busy and my bookcase project has slowed to a crawl. But I managed to get three coats of wiping poly on two face frames this weekend. I used satin poly cut roughly in half with mineral spirits. I like the look. Does that mean I'm done? Oh I'll probably rub them down in a few days, but what I'm asking is if there's any reason to add more coats (for protection?) at this point if the "look" is already what I want. Reminds me of a tour I took of a foundry that creates those shiny brass doors for large, impressive buildings. As expected, the tour ended in the finishing room where an old gentleman was busy polishing one of the fancy doors. As the tour group was leaving, I hung back and asked the old man, "How do you know when it's polished enough?" He replied, "It's never done but, one day they just come and take it away." :-) Gerry |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:31 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 DIYbanter