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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish.
That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 07:24:06 -0800, busbus wrote:
And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? The cracking would indicate varnish, but rubbing it with a little alcohol (not rubbing alcohol) would show if it were shellac. Alcohol won't affect varnish. -- When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Monday, December 17, 2012 7:24:06 AM UTC-8, wrote:
I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! Really? I think I heard you say "My inlaws have a treasured family piece of furniture, in fact an entire set of furniture, I don't have enough experience to know how to refinish it and I would like to start doing this now." Refinishing is the best way to reduce the value of any antique (can we call this an antique?). This is true even when done by the most accomplished professional. Finishing furniture itself is (in my opinion) one of the most difficult parts of building furniture and refinishing is about 10 times harder. Hmmm, does this seem like a good idea? |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
wrote:
I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? A. lacquer - lacquer thinner will dissolve it B. shellac - alcohol will dissolve it C. varnish - it is relatively impervious to alcohol or lacquer thinner though the latter may effect it slowly. There is such a thing as a varnish amalgamator to repair crazed varnish finishes. I've never used it, no idea how effective it might be. Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. Why not? It is the most scratch resistant thing. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. Of course it works. So will cyanoacralate (super) glue...it wicks into small areas well. Should you use either? No idea, can't see your chairs. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. The dark color of the set is most likely from stain, not age. For some reason much of the mahogany furniture from that era and earlier was stained a very dark cordovan color. Look at the underside structure for color differences.. The table top and possibly other areas are most likely veneer rather than solid wood. It was also common to use woods other than mahogany for trim pieces. Veneer was thicker then but it is still veneer. Others have suggested you would be better off having the work done by a professional. +1 to that. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On 12/17/2012 9:24 AM, wrote:
I question whether you really should refinish this set. I assume it is fairly good shape and just needs some TLC. Pick out some portion that is inconspicuous, perhaps the legs or undercarriage of the table or the back legs of the buffet. As others have noted: lacquer will be softened by lacquer thinner. shellac will be softened by denatured alcohol. varnish would require paint remover. I would suggest starting with paint thinner and very fine steel wool. Rub it down really well and clean and wipe with clean rags and paint thinner until a white rag comes away clean. The paint thinner won't hurt any finish that is on the pieces and will remove wax and polish. I'm wanting you to see what it looks like with just a really good cleaning. If there are any scratches, etc use some Watco Danish oil of an appropriate color. When fully dry (at least one day) give the area you've been working on a goodly coat of paste wax using a pad of fine steel wool as the applicator. Let dry for at least two days. Buff with an old bath towel. I think you might be pleased and surprised to just quit after using this process. Refinished stuff tends to look refinished. Remember that on Antiques Road Show they always value the original finishes. Once you start the paint remover, scraping, sanding method there is no turning back. I've had fair results with Chair Doctor: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/chairdoctorglue.aspx If the chairs are basically sound. -- ___________________________________ Keep the whole world singing . . . Dan G remove the seven |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 10:24:06 -0800 (PST), "SonomaProducts.com"
wrote: On Monday, December 17, 2012 7:24:06 AM UTC-8, wrote: I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! Really? I think I heard you say "My inlaws have a treasured family piece of furniture, in fact an entire set of furniture, I don't have enough experience to know how to refinish it and I would like to start doing this now." Refinishing is the best way to reduce the value of any antique (can we call this an antique?). This is true even when done by the most accomplished professional. Finishing furniture itself is (in my opinion) one of the most difficult parts of building furniture and refinishing is about 10 times harder. Hmmm, does this seem like a good idea? I found myself going at least take a chair to several refinishers and get some idea of what's involved. I admit to no real experience refinishing anything that big or of any value. I've done a enough projects in my time where I had to admit I would have been better off hiring an expert and probably saved money. Mike M |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Monday, December 17, 2012 6:23:04 PM UTC-5, DanG wrote:
I question whether you really should refinish this set. I assume it is fairly good shape and just needs some TLC. Pick out some portion that is inconspicuous, perhaps the legs or undercarriage of the table or the back legs of the buffet. As others have noted: lacquer will be softened by lacquer thinner. shellac will be softened by denatured alcohol. varnish would require paint remover. I would suggest starting with paint thinner and very fine steel wool. Rub it down really well and clean and wipe with clean rags and paint thinner until a white rag comes away clean. The paint thinner won't hurt any finish that is on the pieces and will remove wax and polish. I'm wanting you to see what it looks like with just a really good cleaning. If there are any scratches, etc use some Watco Danish oil of an appropriate color. When fully dry (at least one day) give the area you've been working on a goodly coat of paste wax using a pad of fine steel wool as the applicator. Let dry for at least two days. Buff with an old bath towel. I think you might be pleased and surprised to just quit after using this process. Refinished stuff tends to look refinished. Remember that on Antiques Road Show they always value the original finishes. Thanks, Dan. So what you are saying is to use paint thinner and it will get all that built up wax and sticky fingerprints off and leave the finish alone. That's what I wanted to hear most of all. I was surprised when somebody said they used stain way back then to make things darker. That is probably the reason the tops of the chair backs are lighter than everything else: because people always put their hands right in the middle of that spot. Is that where I could put a little danish oil? This isn't the best piece of furniture. Because of circumstances, we use this dining set at least a couple times a month. Sometimes for eating and sometimes for doing things on it. We keep it covered but the old scratches and such are there. There was a cat years and years ago that used to jump up on the table and got some claw marks in it. There are marks from writing on the table top--some are probably as old as the table. And, like I said, there are several deep gouges in the buffet top. That said, I have a can of Johnston's Paste Wax, some Danish Oil, and a lot of 000 steel wool. Is that fine enough? Do they make a 0000 steel wool? Thanks again for the answers! |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
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#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
If the table and chairs are treasured at all - by all means get the set
professionally stripped. There are companies that do that for a living and identifying a surface is easy for them. I'd get bids to do the whole thing. e.g. strip and they or another shop professionally stain and finish. Something that is remembered is worth the option. If it goes bad on you because of fish-eye or dust or cold or to hot - so many things can cause the family the want to just junk it at a later date. Martin On 12/17/2012 9:24 AM, wrote: I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On 12/17/2012 9:24 AM, wrote:
I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! Martin Eastburn wrote: If the table and chairs are treasured at all - by all means get the set professionally stripped. There are companies that do that for a living and identifying a surface is easy for them. I'd get bids to do the whole thing. e.g. strip and they or another shop professionally stain and finish. Something that is remembered is worth the option. If it goes bad on you because of fish-eye or dust or cold or to hot - so many things can cause the family the want to just junk it at a later date. Martin Well - I disagree with what Martin and some others have said. I do not believe it is beyond the reach of a beginner to take on a project like this. It may not come out perfect and 10 years later you may even wish you had done things differently based on what you know at that time, but that all by itself should not be reason not to try now. My bigger concern is the lack of responses from you to the posts that have addressed your original post. There have been enough things said to you that should have seen you asking more questions, or something. You asked a lot of questions and made a lot of statements in your original post which were either questioned or commented on by people here, but I haven't seen anything back from you in response to those. Maybe you are having second thoughts on this project? Not happy with the responses you saw here? -- -Mike- |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
In article , says...
On 12/17/2012 9:24 AM, wrote: I question whether you really should refinish this set. I assume it is fairly good shape and just needs some TLC. Pick out some portion that is inconspicuous, perhaps the legs or undercarriage of the table or the back legs of the buffet. As others have noted: lacquer will be softened by lacquer thinner. shellac will be softened by denatured alcohol. varnish would require paint remover. I would suggest starting with paint thinner and very fine steel wool. Rub it down really well and clean and wipe with clean rags and paint thinner until a white rag comes away clean. The paint thinner won't hurt any finish that is on the pieces and will remove wax and polish. I'm wanting you to see what it looks like with just a really good cleaning. If there are any scratches, etc use some Watco Danish oil of an appropriate color. When fully dry (at least one day) give the area you've been working on a goodly coat of paste wax using a pad of fine steel wool as the applicator. Let dry for at least two days. Buff with an old bath towel. I think you might be pleased and surprised to just quit after using this process. Refinished stuff tends to look refinished. Remember that on Antiques Road Show they always value the original finishes. Once you start the paint remover, scraping, sanding method there is no turning back. I've had fair results with Chair Doctor: http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/chairdoctorglue.aspx If the chairs are basically sound. Howard Restor-A-Finish. It has a generic solvent blend that works on lacquer, shellac, and varnish, but doesn't lift them or soften them excessively, and just enough pigment to darken scratches and the like to match the finish. Comes in a variety of colors. Can be used in conjunction with steel wool. The time that a wet cat went to sleep on a shellacked sideboard made me a believer--you wouldn't believe the size of the white spot that it cleaned up (I don't mean "dyed brown" either). I wish I'd taken pictures. If Restor-A-Finish doesn't work, then it's time to think about refinishing. |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
wrote in message
... I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Next question is what should I use to finish it again? I assume I would want to use the same thing. I certainly don't want to use any sort of poly. The chairs are getting a little wobbly but I don't think they are anywhere near the point of having to take them apart. Would it be worth it to look into that glue that is applied using a needle; the kind of needle like a doctor uses? It seems like these can get into really small places, obviously, but I don't know if the stuff works. One last thing: how do I get my wife to understand that the entire set is going to be much, much lighter than it is now? She was born 20 years after this set was purchased, so she has only known it to be on the dark side. I am sure she is going to scream at first. I guess the only thing I can say is wait another 70 years and it will be just as dark as it is now, except she will be 120+ years old by then and the last thing she will be thinking about is what the set looked like in 2012. Thanks! At seventy years old, the piece is not an antique. Unless you know otherwise, it was probably mass produced and finished with spray lacquer. Other posts have indicated how to differentiate between different finishes. Dining room tables get the most scrutiny so I would not tackle this as a DIY refinishing project if it your first one. Of most concern are the gouges. You don't indicate it but if they are cross-grain, these will be difficult to deal with. The cat scratches cause some problems due to the oils in the cat's claws but they can be overcome. In your case, I would clean the table thoroughly. There are different ways to do this but I would use diluted Dawn dishwashing liquid followed by mineral spirits. I would use lots of fresh cleaning cloths. Once clean and dry, I would give the table top a good coating of paste wax. If it still does not look good to you, it is time to have someone with the knowledge, experience, and equipment refinish it. Taking the chairs apart and regluing them is not as big a deal as you might think. Unless you use a gap filling glue, you are taking the risk that the dowels that were probably used have not been shaved down over time due to the wobble. Take the chairs apart, fill in any gaps with wood shavings from say a planer, and then reglue with hide glue. Hide glue is reversible so if you make a mistake, you can always undo the joint. I have heard that liquids that swell the wood in joints can also cause them to split. Good Luck. |
#14
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 17:59:01 -0800, busbus wrote:
That said, I have a can of Johnston's Paste Wax, some Danish Oil, and a lot of 000 steel wool. Is that fine enough? Do they make a 0000 steel wool? Yes they do - and Liberon is the best - on sale at VanDykes: http://www.vandykes.com/ultra-fine-s...0000/p/203792/ -- When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. |
#15
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
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#16
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 1:53:52 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
Well - I disagree with what Martin and some others have said. I do not believe it is beyond the reach of a beginner to take on a project like this. It may not come out perfect and 10 years later you may even wish you had done things differently based on what you know at that time, but that all by itself should not be reason not to try now. My bigger concern is the lack of responses from you to the posts that have addressed your original post. There have been enough things said to you that should have seen you asking more questions, or something. You asked a lot of questions and made a lot of statements in your original post which were either questioned or commented on by people here, but I haven't seen anything back from you in response to those. Maybe you are having second thoughts on this project? Not happy with the responses you saw here? -- -Mike- Hello, Mike, I have asked a couple questions. No, the answers did not scare me. Some have made me think a little bit. Like I said, I was unaware of them staining mahogany to make it look darker back then. That answers the question of why is the underneath of the tabletop and chairs are way, WAY lighter than the surfaces that are seen. I looks closer at the dining set and I believe the wood everything seems to be solid wood--no veneer. So, there is a question: How do I figure out if anything is veneered? I really do not think the top of the table or buffet or china cabinet are veneered, just by looking at it. And especially since there are deep gouges on the top of the buffet, especially. I would venture to say that one of the three gouges, at least, is deeper than any veneer and there is no sign of anything bu solid wood there. It was suggested to try Howard Restor-A-Finish. I need to look that stuff up. If it does what J. Clarke says it does, then it may be the thing for me, especially for the scratches on the table top. They are not deep; there are just a bunch of them. Okay, here is another question: Since it does seem like the manufacturer may have used stain (as can best be seen by the stain wearing out around the top of the chair backs), how would you restore those using the steel wool and wax method? Or even the Howard Restor-A-Finish method? It would seem to me that there really IS stain involved here and a complete refinishing job is required? Or, maybe, just cleaning it up to get the old "Pledge" and fingerprints off and then using that Howard Restor-A-Finish stuff with steel wool may clean it up just enough. Then I can top it off with the wax? I am not afraid to strip this stuff to bare wood. The furniture is okay but, like I said before, I do not think it is worth oodles of money. I bet the best I could ever hope for would be to recoup the money that I would spend on a new dining room set--probably less. This is not something like a Stickley dining set or anything. It was something that was bought in the corner furniture store back around 1943 or 1944. Don't get me wrong--it is a nice set, just now outstanding. It fits our needs but that is because it is SMALL. It would be completely out of place in a 3,500 sqft McMansion they build today. |
#17
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
wrote:
Hello, Mike, I have asked a couple questions. No, the answers did not scare me. Some have made me think a little bit. Like I said, I was unaware of them staining mahogany to make it look darker back then. That answers the question of why is the underneath of the tabletop and chairs are way, WAY lighter than the surfaces that are seen. Sorry if I missed your other questions. That's happened before... Besides staining wood, they used to dye it way back then. For what that's worth. I looks closer at the dining set and I believe the wood everything seems to be solid wood--no veneer. So, there is a question: How do I figure out if anything is veneered? I really do not think the top of the table or buffet or china cabinet are veneered, just by looking at it. And especially since there are deep gouges on the top of the buffet, especially. I would venture to say that one of the three gouges, at least, is deeper than any veneer and there is no sign of anything bu solid wood there. May be solid wood then. Or maybe both - veneer on the larger table top and solid wood on the buffet (which around my house is called "the long thing"...) It was suggested to try Howard Restor-A-Finish. I need to look that stuff up. If it does what J. Clarke says it does, then it may be the thing for me, especially for the scratches on the table top. They are not deep; there are just a bunch of them. I've never used that product before but it's worth taking John's advice and see how it goes. I have used denatured alcohol and steel wool or 3M pads and gone at old ugly finishes before. That'll take off the years of Lemon Pledge and what ever other ungodly stuff housewives put on over the years. It makes kind of a sticky mess that you have to clean up with more alcohol, but it can work quite well. Depending on the coloring that was added to the wood way back when it was built, that may blend the coloration back in significantly. Worth a bit of elbow grease to see. Okay, here is another question: Since it does seem like the manufacturer may have used stain (as can best be seen by the stain wearing out around the top of the chair backs), how would you restore those using the steel wool and wax method? Or even the Howard Restor-A-Finish method? It would seem to me that there really IS stain involved here and a complete refinishing job is required? Or, maybe, just cleaning it up to get the old "Pledge" and fingerprints off and then using that Howard Restor-A-Finish stuff with steel wool may clean it up just enough. Then I can top it off with the wax? You can try the alcohol route I suggest above, and you can try to blend in some stain. If you try to blend it in, don't try to make it show room perfect - go for shading that disguises the worn spots - does that make sense? I am not afraid to strip this stuff to bare wood. Yeahbut the unintended consequences when you go that route are things like joint failures from what ever chemical stripper you use. I'd go at it with some alcohol, or maybe even mineral spirits and steel wool, or the product that John suggested, and see how it all blends in. -- -Mike- |
#18
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
So what I said was right but you are saying to try denatured alcohol instead of paint thinner, right? I have both at home. I think much of the problem--at least the sticky stuff--is that "Pledge" that was used forever on it.. I think I need to get that crap the heck off to see what is underneath before I do anything else.
You are also saying that I may be able to "spread out" the dye/stain that was used way back then and make the chair backs look presentable enough. I understand. As my dad would have said, "A blind man on a fast horse wouldn't be able to tell the difference." That is all I am after. Then, I can use that restore a finish (or whatever it is called) to try to get rid of as many of the scratches as possible that are on the furniture as a whole. Finally, I could use paste wax, like somebody suggested, and that should make the set look 100 times better WITHOUT refinishing it altogether. And I understand what you are saying about unintended consequences. Been there, done that on too many occasions. I will do this bare minimum first, and it will probably be good enough. Thanks a lot for all the helpful suggestions!!! ray |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
wrote:
So what I said was right but you are saying to try denatured alcohol instead of paint thinner, right? I have both at home. I think much of the problem--at least the sticky stuff--is that "Pledge" that was used forever on it. I think I need to get that crap the heck off to see what is underneath before I do anything else. I'd go with the alcohol first, but only because it's the less strong of the two. If that doesn't work, I'd give the thinner a try. It's sort of a one-step-at-a-time/try-it-and-see thing. You are also saying that I may be able to "spread out" the dye/stain that was used way back then and make the chair backs look presentable enough. I understand. As my dad would have said, "A blind man on a fast horse wouldn't be able to tell the difference." Yup. -- -Mike- |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
dpb wrote:
On 12/17/2012 7:59 PM, wrote: On Monday, December 17, 2012 6:23:04 PM UTC-5, DanG wrote: I question whether you really should refinish this set. I assume it is fairly good shape and just needs some TLC. Pick out some portion that is inconspicuous, perhaps the legs or ... Rub it down really well and clean and wipe with clean rags and paint thinner until a white rag comes away clean. The paint thinner won't hurt any finish that is on the pieces and will remove wax and polish. I'm wanting you to see what it looks like with just a really good cleaning. If there are any scratches, etc use some Watco Danish oil of an appropriate color. ... So what you are saying is to use paint thinner and it will get all that built up wax and sticky fingerprints off and leave the finish alone. That's what I wanted to hear most of all. I was surprised when somebody said they used stain way back then to make things darker. That is probably the reason the tops of the chair backs are lighter than everything else: because people always put their hands right in the middle of that spot. Is that where I could put a little danish oil? This isn't the best piece of furniture. Because of circumstances, we use this dining set at least a couple times a month. Sometimes for eating and sometimes for doing things on it. We keep it covered but the old scratches and such are there. There was a cat years and years ago that used to jump up on the table and got some claw marks in it. There are marks from writing on the table top--some are probably as old as the table. And, like I said, there are several deep gouges in the buffet top. ... Well, do some more research before you really start if this is really a piece/set of any value (monetary or personal)... I'd suggest at least watching the Mohawk videos and practicing some w/ their or similar products before you even _think_ of beginning on the real thing. http://www.mohawk-finishing.com http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=109 http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=106 They've got a "veritable plethora" of you-tube videos on filling w/ various products for the various types of damage and locations. I second the Mohawk reccomendation and I'll add that their toning lacquers can produce excellent results http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/cata...asp?ictNbr=171 |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Dec 17, 10:24*am, wrote:
I was just given the go-head to refinish my wife's parent's old dining room set. *It was purchased in 1940 (my wife still has the receipt!) and it is in dire need of refinishing. *There are 70 years worth of fingerprints all over the backs of the chairs and there are several nice gouges in the top of the buffet. *The finish on the top of the backs of chairs is really coming off, too, and you can see different colored wood starting to show up on all four of the chairs. *Of course, there are a lot of scratches on the table top from cats and kids and whatever over the years. *And you can see all the cracks and discoloration of the old varnish--at least I think it is varnish. That is the first question: how do I figure out what they used to finish the dining set? *Varnish, shellac, what else would they have used seventy years ago? Factory made from that time might be lacquer; cracking would be expected. Butyl cellosolve -- *slow* drying solvent -- can be used to reflow and reamalgamate the old finish. |
#22
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
wrote:
So what I said was right but you are saying to try denatured alcohol instead of paint thinner, right? I have both at home. I think much of the problem--at least the sticky stuff--is that "Pledge" that was used forever on it. I think I need to get that crap the heck off to see what is underneath before I do anything else. Use naptha (lighter fluid) or paint thinner. You are also saying that I may be able to "spread out" the dye/stain that was used way back then and make the chair backs look presentable enough. That won't happen. Not, at least to any significant degree. The only time when it might work well would be if the color were within the finish - a "toner" - or slopped on the wood, not soaked into the wood like a stain. Yes, if you get down to bare, colored wood and then rub it with an appropriate solvent, you may pick up some color but I can't imagine it ever being enough to even out worn areas. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#23
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
Wow! That last URL (http://extension.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/FL-HI-500.pdf is great.
I have learned a lot from all of you. Thanks a lot!! It is this back and forth that helps so much more than a Google search could ever do. Articles like this one are great but there are so many times that, when you find an answer to a question, it spawns two more. And nothing in the world (or on the Internet) can replace the wisdom and experience of people who have been doing the things you are trying to learn. Books are good but teachers are better. |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
dadiOH wrote:
That won't happen. Not, at least to any significant degree. The only time when it might work well would be if the color were within the finish - a "toner" - or slopped on the wood, not soaked into the wood like a stain. Yes, if you get down to bare, colored wood and then rub it with an appropriate solvent, you may pick up some color but I can't imagine it ever being enough to even out worn areas. Au Contraire, mon ami. I have done this myself, and that's why I recommended it to the OP. As you say, it is not going to result in a complete color fill, but I also indicated that in my reply earlier. For not-so-bad areas, it can result in enough diffusion of the worn through areas to significantly lessen the effect of the wear. By virtue of the wear, his surface has already exhibited that it is down to the bare wood you mention above. As I had also mentioned, I have used stains to further blend the color differences, using the same process. -- -Mike- |
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 7:31:53 AM UTC-5, Mike Marlow wrote:
dadiOH wrote: That won't happen. Not, at least to any significant degree. The only time when it might work well would be if the color were within the finish - a "toner" - or slopped on the wood, not soaked into the wood like a stain. Yes, if you get down to bare, colored wood and then rub it with an appropriate solvent, you may pick up some color but I can't imagine it ever being enough to even out worn areas. Au Contraire, mon ami. I have done this myself, and that's why I recommended it to the OP. As you say, it is not going to result in a complete color fill, but I also indicated that in my reply earlier. For not-so-bad areas, it can result in enough diffusion of the worn through areas to significantly lessen the effect of the wear. By virtue of the wear, his surface has already exhibited that it is down to the bare wood you mention above. As I had also mentioned, I have used stains to further blend the color differences, using the same process. Wow, a French lesson, too! I really think this "blending" will work. I can see I am down to bare wood in those spots on the chairs. Those bare spots are as one would expect: smack dab in the middle of the cross piece. This piece is about 4-inches wide and the bare spot is right at the top and goes around the front and back of that piece by almost two-inches now and are about as wide as a large hand. In other words, not all THAT big. If I can get the stain/dye/finish/whatever that that is all around to bleed even a little (and "maybe" add a very, very small amount of stain to this mix), it will more than likely be enough. I am not looking for perfection, just something that is "better" than what is there today. And it seems like the removal of old wax, oil from fingerprints, and whatever other products were used on the wood for all those years will do the most good initially. Using the Restore-A-Finish product or one of the homemade ones in the link dpb sent to spruce up the scratches will be the next best fix. Finally, once these two steps are done, a couple coats of paste wax to seal everything up will be more than enough. I can live with the three or four gouges in the buffet top--heck, it add character! Plus, I suspect the "bleeding" will at least make those spots more-or-less the same color as the rest of the top. And the table top will usually have a pad and tablecloth on it, so it will be protected (for the most part) until such time as the wife wants to take it off for whatever reason. |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
I've been following this thread. I've been waiting for some feedback, to further understand your pieces, condition of the pieces. So for, as best I can tell, you still haven't cleaned the pieces nor performed a finish test, to determine what finish might be on the pieces. Before a procedure for refinishing can be suggested or determined, it is good to know more about what's on the pieces, if possible.
Do the cleaning and testing and tell us what you've discovered. Your description of the chairs, to date, to me, suggests the finish is a toned lacquer, typical of factory applications. Your description of the wear patterns lends to this conclusion. There may be a stain under the (toned?) topcoat. If the chairs are made of maple, a conditioner may have been applied prior to the staining and/or topcoating. Some manufacturers (Hendron, Broyhill, etc.) still have the toned topcoat blends available and you can get color-matched quantities for refinishing/touchups. On the Refinishing Wizard link dpb gave - (link directly to the forum - http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1 ), I think (I'm not sure) Bob (Boardman) may have more info about these companies and the finishes. Also, your local good furniture outlet, often times, has access to the furniture manufacturers, to know how/where to obtain the finishes for repairs/touchups, and the like, for pieces that get damaged in shipment. Your local furniture outlets consult with their local refinishers and upholsterers, for repairing damaged furniture, and these repairs and touchups are done frequently. I do such repairs and touchups, this way, every now and then. The chairs: Whatever repairing/refinishing you decide to do, tackle one chair to see what you'll be up against, for doing the others. If the one chair comes out ok, then proceed with the others. If it doesn't come out well, then you can always have someone/a pro do the job, anyway. It wouldn't matter if he corrects the original "mess" or your "mess". You'll be charged the same fee.. Won't hurt, at all, for you to give it a try. Once you 1) clean the chair, 2) repair whatever needs repairing. 3) Test for the finish on it. If it is indeed lacquer, then the remaining fix is much easier. If the finish is lacquer, then 4) wipe it down with lacquer thinner. Now you're ready for either 5) a lacquer base stain (like a TransTint dye stain using lacquer thinner as the solvent) or 6) a toned lacquer application (TransTint dye does well for this toning. Do some tests to get the color match. Otherwise, see if you can get some toned finish from the company that made the chairs). If the chairs don't have a lacquer finish on them, then one of, or a combination of, the procedures, suggested earlier/above, would likely be a better approach.... Do the testing for the present finish that's on the chairs, before deciding what procedure to proceed with. The table & Buffet: ....Doesn't sound like a too difficult of repair job. It would be nice to see several good pics of the table, though, before making/committing to a repair/refinish schedule. Same with the buffet piece. I would like to better confirm, if possible, whether the pieces' tops are "solid wood" or veneered. For further research, you may want to search the http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1 site. There have been similar threads (some with pics), there, and we have discussed these very issues many times. Sonny |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:58:49 AM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
I've been following this thread. I've been waiting for some feedback, to further understand your pieces, condition of the pieces. So for, as best I can tell, you still haven't cleaned the pieces nor performed a finish test, to determine what finish might be on the pieces. Before a procedure for refinishing can be suggested or determined, it is good to know more about what's on the pieces, if possible. I am just starting to get in gear on this project. I was trying to get some information before I started to do anything. I have more than enough now.. This will be my "winter" project. I will be doing this little by little. I don't have a huge amount of time to spend on this at any one point in time. But I love to do this sort of stuff. This is the largest project of this type that I have attempted and, since it is out in the open with no chance of being hidden, I wanted to make sure I was doing it right. But, like you said, start with a chair. See how it turns out. If I mess it up too bad, then I can always go get the whole thing refinished professionally. That is sort of what I am thinking: nothing really to lose, unless I REALLY screw up. Do the cleaning and testing and tell us what you've discovered. I am going clean things first. Then see if I can determine the finish. I believe what somebody else here said: this is probably mass produced furniture, so they probably used lacquer and it isn't worth oodles of money. Your description of the chairs, to date, to me, suggests the finish is a toned lacquer, typical of factory applications. Your description of the wear patterns lends to this conclusion. Yes, I agree There may be a stain under the (toned?) topcoat. If the chairs are made of maple, a conditioner may have been applied prior to the staining and/or topcoating. From what Mike and others are saying, I agree with this, too. Some manufacturers (Hendron, Broyhill, etc.) still have the toned topcoat blends available and you can get color-matched quantities for refinishing/touchups. On the Refinishing Wizard link dpb gave - (link directly to the forum - http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1), I think (I'm not sure) Bob (Boardman) may have more info about these companies and the finishes. Also, your local good furniture outlet, often times, has access to the furniture manufacturers, to know how/where to obtain the finishes for repairs/touchups, and the like, for pieces that get damaged in shipment. Your local furniture outlets consult with their local refinishers and upholsterers, for repairing damaged furniture, and these repairs and touchups are done frequently. I do such repairs and touchups, this way, every now and then.. Thanks! More good advice. The chairs: Whatever repairing/refinishing you decide to do, tackle one chair to see what you'll be up against, for doing the others. If the one chair comes out ok, then proceed with the others. If it doesn't come out well, then you can always have someone/a pro do the job, anyway. It wouldn't matter if he corrects the original "mess" or your "mess". You'll be charged the same fee. Won't hurt, at all, for you to give it a try. Yep. Once you 1) clean the chair, 2) repair whatever needs repairing. 3) Test for the finish on it. If it is indeed lacquer, then the remaining fix is much easier. If the finish is lacquer, then 4) wipe it down with lacquer thinner. Now you're ready for either 5) a lacquer base stain (like a TransTint dye stain using lacquer thinner as the solvent) or 6) a toned lacquer application (TransTint dye does well for this toning. Do some tests to get the color match. Otherwise, see if you can get some toned finish from the company that made the chairs). If the chairs don't have a lacquer finish on them, then one of, or a combination of, the procedures, suggested earlier/above, would likely be a better approach.... Do the testing for the present finish that's on the chairs, before deciding what procedure to proceed with. The table & Buffet: ...Doesn't sound like a too difficult of repair job. It would be nice to see several good pics of the table, though, before making/committing to a repair/refinish schedule. Same with the buffet piece. I would like to better confirm, if possible, whether the pieces' tops are "solid wood" or veneered. For further research, you may want to search the http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1 site. There have been similar threads (some with pics), there, and we have discussed these very issues many times. Sonny Wow, seriously: Thanks a lot. I need to print all of this off and keep it with me whenever I start this project! |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Refinishing tips for a 70-year-old mahogany dining room set
"Sonny" wrote in message ... I've been following this thread. I've been waiting for some feedback, to further understand your pieces, condition of the pieces. So for, as best I can tell, you still haven't cleaned the pieces nor performed a finish test, to determine what finish might be on the pieces. Before a procedure for refinishing can be suggested or determined, it is good to know more about what's on the pieces, if possible. Do the cleaning and testing and tell us what you've discovered. Your description of the chairs, to date, to me, suggests the finish is a toned lacquer, typical of factory applications. Your description of the wear patterns lends to this conclusion. There may be a stain under the (toned?) topcoat. If the chairs are made of maple, a conditioner may have been applied prior to the staining and/or topcoating. Some manufacturers (Hendron, Broyhill, etc.) still have the toned topcoat blends available and you can get color-matched quantities for refinishing/touchups. On the Refinishing Wizard link dpb gave - (link directly to the forum - http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1 ), I think (I'm not sure) Bob (Boardman) may have more info about these companies and the finishes. Also, your local good furniture outlet, often times, has access to the furniture manufacturers, to know how/where to obtain the finishes for repairs/touchups, and the like, for pieces that get damaged in shipment. Your local furniture outlets consult with their local refinishers and upholsterers, for repairing damaged furniture, and these repairs and touchups are done frequently. I do such repairs and touchups, this way, every now and then. The chairs: Whatever repairing/refinishing you decide to do, tackle one chair to see what you'll be up against, for doing the others. If the one chair comes out ok, then proceed with the others. If it doesn't come out well, then you can always have someone/a pro do the job, anyway. It wouldn't matter if he corrects the original "mess" or your "mess". You'll be charged the same fee. Won't hurt, at all, for you to give it a try. Once you 1) clean the chair, 2) repair whatever needs repairing. 3) Test for the finish on it. If it is indeed lacquer, then the remaining fix is much easier. If the finish is lacquer, then 4) wipe it down with lacquer thinner. Now you're ready for either 5) a lacquer base stain (like a TransTint dye stain using lacquer thinner as the solvent) or 6) a toned lacquer application (TransTint dye does well for this toning. Do some tests to get the color match. Otherwise, see if you can get some toned finish from the company that made the chairs). If the chairs don't have a lacquer finish on them, then one of, or a combination of, the procedures, suggested earlier/above, would likely be a better approach.... Do the testing for the present finish that's on the chairs, before deciding what procedure to proceed with. The table & Buffet: ...Doesn't sound like a too difficult of repair job. It would be nice to see several good pics of the table, though, before making/committing to a repair/refinish schedule. Same with the buffet piece. I would like to better confirm, if possible, whether the pieces' tops are "solid wood" or veneered. For further research, you may want to search the http://www.refinishwizard.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=1 site. There have been similar threads (some with pics), there, and we have discussed these very issues many times. Sonny I think the above advice is good, and I will add one more thing for tightening up the chairs. Use epoxy. Two hour stuff, and thin it with alcohol the bare minimum, or not at all to get it into the needle for injecting. Even better, use heat instead of thinning it. It makes it flow better. Epoxy fills gaps and does not swell. It also is strong as hell and works without clamping pressure, or much, anyway. Protect the wood with a tape job before injecting any epoxy, though. Epoxy sinks into grain if any wood grain outside of the joint is exposed and will not allow stain or some other finishes to stick to it later. -- Jim in NC |
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