Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Hmmmm ... where are the "through tenons"?

IOW, it looks more like the door frame is joined with miter joints in
the photos?

If so, the question then becomes whether the miter's were done with some
type of spline, biscuit, etc.?

Is that a bow in both stiles from the panel warping, or is that camera
distortion?

Just a SWAG, but considering the doors warped, and if the stiles are
indeed bowed ... something which would not have happened with a properly
designed "frame and panel" ... then the entire construction method may
be suspect, and perhaps to your benefit.

Are you positive that what to appear to be miter joints in the photos
are reinforced in some manner (I see no evidence of "through tenons" or
a spline, although it may just be the photos)?

My point ... applying some heat to an inherently weak, un-reinforced,
miter joint, joinery put together by someone who obviously does not
appear to have been an expert in joinery from the current state of
thing, might actually allow you to get that frame apart?

Just a thought, and a long shot, but something to consider ... hard to
troubleshoot from photos alone.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

The photos do not show the through tenons. The joints are, as you
note, mitered, but there are tenon ends that show in the sides of the
stiles (short sides). Whether they are floating tenons or solid ones I
can't tell, but it really doesn't matter, the frame isn't coming apart
short of destructive surgery.

The frame is flat and true in all dimensions. The panel is floated in
the rail/stile dadoes (I can move it a tad horizontally and
vertically). The stiles are not bowed, just the panel, that's why the
interior edges of the stiles split out, the panel bow put too much
pressure on the thin edges above the dado.

Yeh, it's almost impossible to diagnose from the photos and my lousy
descriptions, but I'm pretty sure I've got to get some of the cupping
out of the panel. Then I can shave down the panel edges where the
panel would go in the stile dados enough (maybe??) to get pressure off
the stile edges and glue them back together - hope springs eternal.
She's a sweet 80+ year old lady and seems to treasure the desk, so I'd
like to get it looking at least OK.

Thanks.

Tom


On Sun, 08 Jul 2012 12:49:08 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Hmmmm ... where are the "through tenons"?

IOW, it looks more like the door frame is joined with miter joints in
the photos?

If so, the question then becomes whether the miter's were done with some
type of spline, biscuit, etc.?

Is that a bow in both stiles from the panel warping, or is that camera
distortion?

Just a SWAG, but considering the doors warped, and if the stiles are
indeed bowed ... something which would not have happened with a properly
designed "frame and panel" ... then the entire construction method may
be suspect, and perhaps to your benefit.

Are you positive that what to appear to be miter joints in the photos
are reinforced in some manner (I see no evidence of "through tenons" or
a spline, although it may just be the photos)?

My point ... applying some heat to an inherently weak, un-reinforced,
miter joint, joinery put together by someone who obviously does not
appear to have been an expert in joinery from the current state of
thing, might actually allow you to get that frame apart?

Just a thought, and a long shot, but something to consider ... hard to
troubleshoot from photos alone.

On 7/8/2012 12:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Hmmmm ... where are the "through tenons"?

Got an opportunity to download two of the photos and can faintly make
out what appears to be, judging from its position, possibly an angled
spline?

The only one I can see, if that is what I'm seeing, appears to be the
wrong place with regard to the joint to be a "through tenon", but is
also in a location that would rule it out as decorative, therefore it
could indeed be a method to reinforce a miter joint?

Is this piece Asian? Saw a lot of carvings like that in Hong Kong years
ago, and the joinery is not necessarily what we would see in a European
piece.

If there is one in each corner, than all previous bets about getting the
frame apart are off.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:
Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom



Some thoughts. It appears that the frames too are in bad shape. IMHO
they may need to be replaced. As for the warped panel I would thing
that perhaps some length wise relief cuts in the back side might ease
the bow such tha a new frame would keep everything in check...

"Tom" wrote in message
...
Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

It's possible that the frame may come apart by using a multi-tool to
saw thru 2 of the miter joints to get one side off. You may not have
to saw all the way thru, just enough to cut the tenon. Once the frame
is open the panel can be removed and lengthwise cuts made in the
back side to relieve the tension. These will be covered by the writing
panel anyway, no? Once flattened fill the kerfs and reassemble.
Art

Yep, what you think you see is it. It may well be, as you say, a
spline, though it appeared to me to be a tenon. There is one at each
corner, all in the same relative location.

I too believe that the frame is NOT coming apart - it's damn solid. No
give or twisting movement in any direction.

The carving depicts an oriental scene, or at least the figures,
clothing and upswept hairdos look oriental in nature. I suspect it was
acquired in the Phillipines. I saw similar carved items for sale in
the 'Nam many years ago, generally sourced out of the Phillipines or
Hong Kong. Never bought one 'cause they wouldn't go with the decor in
my bunker.

Tom



On Sun, 08 Jul 2012 14:39:01 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 7/8/2012 12:49 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Hmmmm ... where are the "through tenons"?

Got an opportunity to download two of the photos and can faintly make
out what appears to be, judging from its position, possibly an angled
spline?

The only one I can see, if that is what I'm seeing, appears to be the
wrong place with regard to the joint to be a "through tenon", but is
also in a location that would rule it out as decorative, therefore it
could indeed be a method to reinforce a miter joint?

Is this piece Asian? Saw a lot of carvings like that in Hong Kong years
ago, and the joinery is not necessarily what we would see in a European
piece.

If there is one in each corner, than all previous bets about getting the
frame apart are off.

The frame is structurally sound and true. It has not warped to any
discernible degree. There's no give to any of the joints.

Relief cuts on the back side of the panel are definitely a reasonable
idea. I'd just have to be real careful with the depth of the cuts as
the relief carving on the front seems to leave, in places only about
1/16" of thickness. Overall the panel is ~5/16 thick but some of the
relief areas are cut almost 1/4" deep.

Thanks for the idea.

Tom

On Sun, 08 Jul 2012 14:58:44 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:
Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom



Some thoughts. It appears that the frames too are in bad shape. IMHO
they may need to be replaced. As for the warped panel I would thing
that perhaps some length wise relief cuts in the back side might ease
the bow such tha a new frame would keep everything in check...

Art

I could use a multi tool or fret saw to cut through the splines, or
tenons, or whatever they are. I coud then, as you say, get the panel
out, I think. Relief cuts on the back are a good idea (2 votes, you
and Leon) but see my response to him above regarding depth of cut..

I can make relief cuts without getting it out. Thought to use a palm
router with a V bit set REAL shallow, then complete to the edges with
a V chisel. That would help, I hope, flatten it out enough to get the
pressure off the edges of the frame where the dados are, so I can
repair the breaks and splits.

Net/net, I've got to reduce that warp induced pressure to get the
front repaired. If the panel stays a bit cupped, no worries, no one
will notice.

Thanks.

Tom


On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 13:23:32 -0700, "Artemus"
wrote:


"Tom" wrote in message
.. .
Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

It's possible that the frame may come apart by using a multi-tool to
saw thru 2 of the miter joints to get one side off. You may not have
to saw all the way thru, just enough to cut the tenon. Once the frame
is open the panel can be removed and lengthwise cuts made in the
back side to relieve the tension. These will be covered by the writing
panel anyway, no? Once flattened fill the kerfs and reassemble.
Art

On 7/8/2012 4:29 PM, Tom wrote:
Yep, what you think you see is it. It may well be, as you say, a
spline, though it appeared to me to be a tenon. There is one at each
corner, all in the same relative location.


Knew I'd seen a similar looking miter joint before. This appears to be
similar to what you have and what I can see in the photos. It is typical
of what you would see in Asian crafted pieces of the highest craftsmanship:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19506017095330

You may now know what you are dealing with?

Not to mention that I apologize to the woodworker, where ever the hell
he is, for doubting his joinery! And that's an understatement.

BTW, the only thing I ever saw in 'Nam from the Phillipines was copycat
Rock 'n Roll bands, and guys dancing with a strange, foot mounted
puppet/doll.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 7/8/2012 5:56 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 7/8/2012 4:29 PM, Tom wrote:
Yep, what you think you see is it. It may well be, as you say, a
spline, though it appeared to me to be a tenon. There is one at each
corner, all in the same relative location.


Knew I'd seen a similar looking miter joint before. This appears to be
similar to what you have and what I can see in the photos. It is typical
of what you would see in Asian crafted pieces of the highest craftsmanship:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19506017095330


You may now know what you are dealing with?

Not to mention that I apologize to the woodworker, where ever the hell
he is, for doubting his joinery! And that's an understatement.

BTW, the only thing I ever saw in 'Nam from the Phillipines was copycat
Rock 'n Roll bands, and guys dancing with a strange, foot mounted
puppet/doll.


An idea from some one who never did this before.

With the panel being so thin, could you work something out so the panel
could be put into a piece of aluminum channel and then the channel
hidden in the frame?

It is a dumb idea but maybe you could work something.

I would suspect the panel is air dried wood (best/easiest carved when
still some greenness to it), not kiln dried.

The back side seems to be unfinished. Is this correct? If so, then I
would try dampening the back side (and leaving the damp cloths laying
on the panel) and see if the panel straightens, on its own, a little,
after a period of a few hours of dampness only. Place some moderate
dead weights in position to straighten the panel. If there is a hint
of straightening, after a few hours, then I would reapply some
dampness and gently shoot some *heat onto the panel while applying
some dead weight pressure to straighten the panel more..... Possibly
rigging up a dead weight press, first, to assist while warming/heating
the dampened panel. If the wood is air dried, it should respond to
some dampness and/or some heat with pressure, similar to steaming wood
for bending. This may be easier and safer than trying to cut relief
kerfs (as a last resort?).

*Note: Do not apply high heat with this procedure. Good warmth,
~150°, not too hot, at all. Also, when applying heat, don't apply too
much initial dead weight pressure. Place small pressure and gradually
increase, if need be.... but first, see if the panel responds to just
dampening the back side, with no heat assistance.

Sonny

On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I would suspect the panel is air dried wood (best/easiest carved when
still some greenness to it), not kiln dried.

The back side seems to be unfinished. Is this correct? If so, then I
would try dampening the back side (and leaving the damp cloths laying
on the panel) and see if the panel straightens, on its own, a little,
after a period of a few hours of dampness only. Place some moderate
dead weights in position to straighten the panel. If there is a hint
of straightening, after a few hours, then I would reapply some
dampness and gently shoot some *heat onto the panel while applying
some dead weight pressure to straighten the panel more..... Possibly
rigging up a dead weight press, first, to assist while warming/heating
the dampened panel. If the wood is air dried, it should respond to
some dampness and/or some heat with pressure, similar to steaming wood
for bending. This may be easier and safer than trying to cut relief
kerfs (as a last resort?).

*Note: Do not apply high heat with this procedure. Good warmth,
~150°, not too hot, at all. Also, when applying heat, don't apply too
much initial dead weight pressure. Place small pressure and gradually
increase, if need be.... but first, see if the panel responds to just
dampening the back side, with no heat assistance.

Sonny

Wouldn't adding moisture on the back cause those fibers to swell,
increasing the cupping?

"Jim Weisgram" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I would suspect the panel is air dried wood (best/easiest carved when
still some greenness to it), not kiln dried.

The back side seems to be unfinished. Is this correct? If so, then I
would try dampening the back side (and leaving the damp cloths laying
on the panel) and see if the panel straightens, on its own, a little,
after a period of a few hours of dampness only. Place some moderate
dead weights in position to straighten the panel. If there is a hint
of straightening, after a few hours, then I would reapply some
dampness and gently shoot some *heat onto the panel while applying
some dead weight pressure to straighten the panel more..... Possibly
rigging up a dead weight press, first, to assist while warming/heating
the dampened panel. If the wood is air dried, it should respond to
some dampness and/or some heat with pressure, similar to steaming wood
for bending. This may be easier and safer than trying to cut relief
kerfs (as a last resort?).

*Note: Do not apply high heat with this procedure. Good warmth,
~150°, not too hot, at all. Also, when applying heat, don't apply too
much initial dead weight pressure. Place small pressure and gradually
increase, if need be.... but first, see if the panel responds to just
dampening the back side, with no heat assistance.

Sonny

Wouldn't adding moisture on the back cause those fibers to swell,
increasing the cupping?

Yes.
Art

On Jul 8, 7:41*pm, "Artemus" wrote:
"Jim Weisgram" wrote in message

...





On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I would suspect the panel is air dried wood (best/easiest carved when
still some greenness to it), not kiln dried.

The back side seems to be unfinished. *Is this correct? *If so, then I
would try dampening the back side (and leaving the damp cloths laying
on the panel) *and see if the panel straightens, on its own, a little,
after a period of a few hours of dampness only. *Place some moderate
dead weights in position to straighten the panel. *If there is a hint
of straightening, after a few hours, then I would reapply some
dampness and gently shoot some *heat onto the panel while applying
some dead weight pressure to straighten the panel more..... *Possibly
rigging up a dead weight press, first, to assist while warming/heating
the dampened panel. *If the wood is air dried, it should respond to
some dampness and/or some heat with pressure, similar to steaming wood
for bending. *This may be easier and safer than trying to cut relief
kerfs (as a last resort?).

*Note: *Do not apply high heat with this procedure. * Good warmth,
~150°, not too hot, at all. *Also, when applying heat, don't apply too
much initial dead weight pressure. *Place small pressure and gradually
increase, if need be.... but first, see if the panel responds to just
dampening the back side, with no heat assistance.

Sonny

Wouldn't adding moisture on the back cause those fibers to swell,
increasing the cupping?

Yes.
Art-

Yes, maybe, but will allow the panel to be compressed on the back side
by the pressure. The panel dried more (and probably faster) on the
carved side, likely causing the majority of the cupping in that
direction.... and possibly enhanced by natural tension of the wood....
and/or volume of wood on the back side relative to the carved side.
You want moisture to penetrate the panel, but not to the extent is
reaches the finish on the carved side. The panel has likely cupped
all its going to cup, not much more. You don't want to bend it back
into proper position too fast or the carved side might crack, form
check type cracks. Same with cutting kerfs on the back side... you
don't want to bend it back, too fast, into too flat of position or
else the carved side might (likely, IMO) develope cracks, because of
the extent it has cupped. That panel is not quarter sawn wood, i.e.,
easier to compress than quarter sawn wood.

[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article ,
says...

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

b) How to access this site

c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.

--

Michael Karas
Carousel Design Solutions
http://www.carousel-design.com

Michael Karas wrote:
[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article ,
says...

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking


b) How to access this site

The rest should be the same as the way you access the rec.woodworking
newsgroup, as long as your newsgroup provider subscribes to the newsgroup.

If they don't, there may still be another way--but try first!

Hope this helps!

Bill



c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.

Michael

If the newsgroup doesn't do it for you try
- http://www.delorie.com/wood/abpw/

CYA
Steve

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:
Background:

Doing some volunteer work for one of our senior lady clients. Changed
out a faucet seat and washer, leak stops, all done. Then I get the
famous "One more little thing you could look at ...". Here we go
again!

She has this pretty, kinda old writing desk, French escritoire style,
where you let the front down to a horizontal to open the desk
interior, the inside of the front panel becoming the writing surface.
The outside of this panel is carven, some oriental scene.

Situation
The panel in question is in a rail and stile frame. It's about 32 X 15
in a frame that's about 36 X 22. The frame is held together by through
tenons. The panel rides about 1/4" deep in the grooves in the rails
and stiles. It is not removable without getting the frame apart, and
there's no good way I can see to do that. The panel wood is fairly
heavy, fine grained, may be mahogany or another tropical hardwood.

The panel is badly cupped, warped side to side along its length. The
cupping has broken out part of the edge of the framing at the tops of
the sides. One side is broken free for about 5" and the other side is
split for about the same length. I have removed the inner panel that
forms the writing surface. It was glued to the carved panel but had
largely broken free from the cupping, so I just eased it off by hand.

Question
I'm looking for bright ideas on getting the panel "unwarped". I can't
just glue the broken/split edges back where they came from as the
cupping is so extreme it'll just break them out again, I think.

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom


I think you're on the right approach. I've had fair luck actually
setting the board on the grass (not rained on, not watered) to increase
the humidity.

--


___________________________________

Keep the whole world singing . . .
Dan G
remove the seven

On 7/9/2012 3:44 AM, DanG wrote:
On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

I think you're on the right approach. I've had fair luck actually
setting the board on the grass (not rained on, not watered) to increase
the humidity.

What happens when the board again attains equilibrium? Would seem to
me the panel likely attained the shape it is predestined to attain and
to change that you either have to stretch/compress fibers as in bending
the wood to a shape it is not currently destined to attain, or, hack at
it with a saw to force compliance as Leon said. Wood elasticity
increases with heat, hot moisture is the quickest and safest way to
increase the temperature enough to boost elasticity where permanent
destiny change can be made via force.

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article , says...

Michael Karas wrote:
[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article ,
says...

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking


b) How to access this site

The rest should be the same as the way you access the rec.woodworking
newsgroup, as long as your newsgroup provider subscribes to the newsgroup.

If they don't, there may still be another way--but try first!

Hope this helps!

Bill



c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.


First off, thanks for the info.

When I look at the list of available news groups to which I can
subscribe I find that "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" is not one of
them. Is it possible that my news service, Eternal September, is not
collecting input from that group?

--

Michael Karas
Carousel Design Solutions
http://www.carousel-design.com

[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article m,
says...

Michael

If the newsgroup doesn't do it for you try
- http://www.delorie.com/wood/abpw/

CYA
Steve

Thanks Steve. That worked and I could see Tom's pictures.

--

Michael Karas
Carousel Design Solutions
http://www.carousel-design.com

On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 06:27:52 -0700, Michael Karas
wrote:

[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article , says...

Michael Karas wrote:
[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article ,
says...

Posting some pics to a.b.p.w

Any thoughts?

Tom

Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking


b) How to access this site

The rest should be the same as the way you access the rec.woodworking
newsgroup, as long as your newsgroup provider subscribes to the newsgroup.

If they don't, there may still be another way--but try first!

Hope this helps!

Bill



c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.


First off, thanks for the info.

When I look at the list of available news groups to which I can
subscribe I find that "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" is not one of
them. Is it possible that my news service, Eternal September, is not
collecting input from that group?

I didn't think Eternal September carried any binary newsgroups (my Usenet
provider doesn't either).

On 7/9/2012 10:07 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 06:27:52 -0700, Michael Karas
wrote:


snipped for brevity

c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like
to see Tom's pictures.


First off, thanks for the info.

When I look at the list of available news groups to which I can
subscribe I find that "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" is not
one of them. Is it possible that my news service, Eternal
September, is not collecting input from that group?

I didn't think Eternal September carried any binary newsgroups (my
Usenet provider doesn't either).


//Quote
news.eternal-september.org is a private project providing free access to
"text-only" Usenet News.
-http://www.eternal-september.org/
//EndQuote

--
Digger
Bob O'Dell

On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 02:44:12 -0500, DanG wrote:

On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:
Background:


SNIP

SNAP

Dan:

Thanks for the input. Grass is what The Furniture Doctor recommends,
but I'm hopeful that my wet towel under the blocked up panel will
accomplish something similar. No joy so far, and it's raining today,
so we'll just have to see. The rain is appreciated regardless of its
impact on my project.

Regards.

Tom



I think you're on the right approach. I've had fair luck actually
setting the board on the grass (not rained on, not watered) to increase
the humidity.

Michael Karas wrote in
:

When I look at the list of available news groups to which I can
subscribe I find that "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" is not one of
them. Is it possible that my news service, Eternal September, is not
collecting input from that group?

That is a provider of text-only usenet groups, as already stated.

I paid Astraweb.com $10 in June 2008 for 25 GB of downloads. I use that
news service exclusively, but don't really use it to download big files,
which is what you can do there. Now, today, I still have 23,712,097,568
bytes (23.71 GB) left to download. There is no expiration date. I think
that was $10 well spent. Latency, uptime and retention are all very
favorable compared to Eternal.

Suggestion: Spend $10.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Jack:

In the past I've had some luck with keeping the weight on for several
days after stopping the moisture treatment. That being said, I expect
that the results may be largely a function of the type of wood and its
grain structure. I know that I can bend 1/2" thick white oak into a
circle of 12" radius (after steaming) and have it stay about 320
degrees complete after it dries. The spring back is reduced even
further if I keep it clamped in a circle for 2 weeks or more.

I do not know how this wood (I suspect mahoganey, but not at all
certain) will react.

Regards.

Tom

On Mon, 09 Jul 2012 08:56:13 -0400, Jack wrote:

On 7/9/2012 3:44 AM, DanG wrote:
On 7/8/2012 11:24 AM, Tom wrote:

I re-read my decades old copy of The Furniture Doctor and have the
framed panel out on the concrete patio up on wooden blocks at the
panel corners, concave side down, with a wet towel under it (not
touching the wood) and a 25 lb barbell weight on cauls on the top. I'm
hoping that 95+ Dallas heat will create a bit of a steamer to bend the
wood back.

I think you're on the right approach. I've had fair luck actually
setting the board on the grass (not rained on, not watered) to increase
the humidity.

What happens when the board again attains equilibrium? Would seem to
me the panel likely attained the shape it is predestined to attain and
to change that you either have to stretch/compress fibers as in bending
the wood to a shape it is not currently destined to attain, or, hack at
it with a saw to force compliance as Leon said. Wood elasticity
increases with heat, hot moisture is the quickest and safest way to
increase the temperature enough to boost elasticity where permanent
destiny change can be made via force.

Sonny:

I concur with your guess that the wood was likely air dried. The piece
is 50+ years old, came from Asia, so kiln drying seems unlikely.

The back side (convex side) is unfinished, just some dried glue which
I plan to scrape off anyway). I just learned from the owner that the
whole piece got wet some years ago during a move - probable source of
the warping. If that's the case then the back side (unfinished except
for bad glue) would absorb more moisture than the finished front side,
causing the cupping, or at least that's my theory.

Dampening the convex side is counter intuitive, but WTH, I'll give it
a shot. I am concerned about cracking of the panel if I do relief
cuts. Its varying thickness, due to the relief carving, would make
depth of cut pretty critical and hard to determine.

One maybe good, maybe bad thing is that the grain is not straight
along the panel width, but at a slight angle, maybe 15 degrees. The
cupping is almost dead straight along the width. IMHO this could
reduce the potential of a split running the width of the panel as it
tries to un-cup. Wishful thinking in progress.

Thanks for the ideas.

Tom

On Sun, 8 Jul 2012 16:47:59 -0700 (PDT), Sonny
wrote:

I would suspect the panel is air dried wood (best/easiest carved when
still some greenness to it), not kiln dried.

The back side seems to be unfinished. Is this correct? If so, then I
would try dampening the back side (and leaving the damp cloths laying
on the panel) and see if the panel straightens, on its own, a little,
after a period of a few hours of dampness only. Place some moderate
dead weights in position to straighten the panel. If there is a hint
of straightening, after a few hours, then I would reapply some
dampness and gently shoot some *heat onto the panel while applying
some dead weight pressure to straighten the panel more..... Possibly
rigging up a dead weight press, first, to assist while warming/heating
the dampened panel. If the wood is air dried, it should respond to
some dampness and/or some heat with pressure, similar to steaming wood
for bending. This may be easier and safer than trying to cut relief
kerfs (as a last resort?).

*Note: Do not apply high heat with this procedure. Good warmth,
~150°, not too hot, at all. Also, when applying heat, don't apply too
much initial dead weight pressure. Place small pressure and gradually
increase, if need be.... but first, see if the panel responds to just
dampening the back side, with no heat assistance.

Sonny

Michael Karas wrote:


When I look at the list of available news groups to which I can
subscribe I find that "alt.binaries.pictures.woodworking" is not one
of them. Is it possible that my news service, Eternal September, is
not collecting input from that group?

A quick look at your provider's web site would have told you that they do
not provide binary newsgroups.

--

-Mike-

Tom wrote:
Sonny:

I concur with your guess that the wood was likely air dried. The piece
is 50+ years old, came from Asia, so kiln drying seems unlikely.

The back side (convex side) is unfinished, just some dried glue which
I plan to scrape off anyway). I just learned from the owner that the
whole piece got wet some years ago during a move - probable source of
the warping. If that's the case then the back side (unfinished except
for bad glue) would absorb more moisture than the finished front side,
causing the cupping, or at least that's my theory.

Dampening the convex side is counter intuitive, but WTH, I'll give it
a shot. I am concerned about cracking of the panel if I do relief
cuts. Its varying thickness, due to the relief carving, would make
depth of cut pretty critical and hard to determine.

One maybe good, maybe bad thing is that the grain is not straight
along the panel width, but at a slight angle, maybe 15 degrees. The
cupping is almost dead straight along the width. IMHO this could
reduce the potential of a split running the width of the panel as it
tries to un-cup. Wishful thinking in progress.


Oh geeze... think about this stuff for a moment! Do you really think that
mother nature devoted this much anal retentive babble in her original
effects upon that wood? This group can generate way too much hyperbole when
it comes to trying to sound scientific in their approach to things. Makes
the authors feel good about themselves, or something... Anyway - think
about how it warped. Not a rigidly controlled environment. Now think about
how you might reverse that. Do you see any common themes?

Oh - and before any of the experts chime in - yes, I have reversed many
issues like this, without resorting to all of the thought processes that
tend to prevail here.

--

-Mike-

"Michael Karas" wrote in message
...
[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]


Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

b) How to access this site

c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.

--

Michael Karas

http://www.delorie.com/wood/abpw/week.html
Art

"Artemus" wrote in message ...

"Michael Karas" wrote in message
...
[This followup was posted to rec.woodworking and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]


Would someone be so find as to share some information with me as to:

a) Full name of a.b.p.w

b) How to access this site

c) What reader tool needed to access binaries

I happen to use the MicroPlanet Gravity reader and would like to see
Tom's pictures.

--

Michael Karas

http://www.delorie.com/wood/abpw/week.html
Art
Shoulda read further down first.
Art

On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 17:40:51 +1000, "Stephen Quinn"
wrote:

Michael

If the newsgroup doesn't do it for you try
- http://www.delorie.com/wood/abpw/

Thanks, Steve. MUCH better than abpw.

Now I can see Deb's booful bench, too. I hope she's finished
finishing the inside of the bottom rails by now.

--
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails,
admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt