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#41
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/12/12 2:12 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. That's my biggest complaint with PEX - which admitedly, has nothing to do with the product, but has everything to do with the installation. Installed professionaly, it can look and perform as well as copper or CPVC, but it seems the stuff is just plopped in place and it looks like hell. I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves. While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it maintains the trap water to keep out the stink. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#42
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Shear strength of screws
-MIKE- wrote:
I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves. Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value, but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them. -- -Mike- |
#43
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Shear strength of screws
On Apr 6, 12:05*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." *I need to cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack. I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick. Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a screw if you know the load? When in doubt, put in another screw for redundancy. If they're going to fail, in all likelihood, they're going to fail one screw at a time. |
#44
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Shear strength of screws
Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them. The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four houses, all done by amateur labour. ----------- "Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value, but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them. |
#46
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Shear strength of screws
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:21:53 -0500, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:32 PM, wrote: No, but it means it can be SPEC'd. If the engineer signs off on the design using a "code compliant" Timberlok in place of say, aStrongTie and 12 nails, it is going to be pretty difficult for an inspector to fail the structure on the basis of their correctly applied use. And it IS acceptable for an engineer to spec "or equivalent" in the design, particularly if he provides the specification the device must meet -such as pull-out strength and shear strength. Absolutely no argument that anything can be spec'ed ... (and this has gotten off the intended beaten path and onto a rabbit trail). However, and in MY experience, an engineer or architect will rarely attempt to specify (as with the aforementioned use of PEX) something that is specifically disallowed in the jurisdiction's building code (even if by default, as when specifically stating where they (screws in this case) _can_ be used ... as with ledger boards, decks, etc) if a solution that is unquestionably, and specifically in compliance, is indeed available. And for good reason ... it _always_ costs (me, mostly) time, money and, most importantly, GOOD WILL, for any of the parties involved being forced to take issue with an inspector ... and any architect or engineer who puts me in that position without good reason stands a good chance of not being on the next job. That said, back to the main issue: No disrespect intended at all, I was simply taking exception to what appears to be an qualified statement that since a screw type fastener is deemed to be "fully code compliant", to infer that it may be used, without regard, as an optional replacement, is both arguably incorrect, and misleading to the intended audience. I maintain, once again, that the ONLY reasonable action is to check both your local building code, and engineer approved structural plan, BEFORE using _any_ fastener in structural members just about anywhere in North America. Correct - you give the spec sheet of the product you would like to use to the inspector and tell him you want to use these - does he have any problems allowing them. It's a nobrainer to use ONE device that installs in a minute or two and costs a buck instead of a complex strap arrangement that takes 5 minutes or more to install, in 13 pieces, and costs two bucks, if you can get the inspector's permission. The inspector may want to see a sample of an installation that he can whack at with a crow-bar or hammer to satisfy HIMSELF that it is an acceptable solution. Had a friend designed a very thermally efficient house, using modular insulated panels, built on-site, instead of a traditional studded wall. The inspector said "prove to me this panel is as strong as or stronger than the traditional wall and I'll allow it". When he drove his 3/4 ton 4X4 up a ramp consisting of a wall panel, the inspector was duly impressed and gave him the go-ahead. |
#47
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:31:42 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote: On 4/12/12 2:12 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. That's my biggest complaint with PEX - which admitedly, has nothing to do with the product, but has everything to do with the installation. Installed professionaly, it can look and perform as well as copper or CPVC, but it seems the stuff is just plopped in place and it looks like hell. I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves. While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it maintains the trap water to keep out the stink. I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final install. I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper, or a clamped joint on PEX. |
#48
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
wrote: On Apr 6, 12:05Â*pm, Gramp's shop wrote: I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." Â*I need to cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack. I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick. Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a screw if you know the load? When in doubt, put in another screw for redundancy. If they're going to fail, in all likelihood, they're going to fail one screw at a time. Unless even 2 is not strong enough, where both can, and often do, fail virtually at the same time. Ore one will fail, without being noticed, and a significant time later the second fails catastrophically. Better to use overkill on one than use 2 too small fasteners. Better yet, overkill on more than one. |
#49
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Shear strength of screws
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:
Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too expensive and I don't trust them. The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four houses, all done by amateur labour. As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material) ----------- "Mike Marlow" wrote in message .. . Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value, but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them. |
#50
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/12/12 9:19 PM, wrote:
I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves. While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it maintains the trap water to keep out the stink. I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final install. Is there a reason for this, other than looks? I was planning on replacing it, but honestly, I can't think of easier access for clean-out. I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper, or a clamped joint on PEX. Again, why? Do they have a track record of leaking? I haven't been using sharkbites for standard, permanent connections, simply because crimps are so cheap and easy. But the sharkbite valves are only about 20% more than regular valves and are high quality ball valves. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#51
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Shear strength of screws
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#52
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee. Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper pipe. |
#53
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Shear strength of screws
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#54
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing) |
#55
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC? AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing, at less cost? That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and _ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply elsewhere, eh? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#56
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 7:12 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke" The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee. Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper pipe. As it turns out, rodent damage is one of the few drawbacks of using PEX. Maximum effective pest control is an _absolute requirement_ for anyone contemplating using the product. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#57
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 7:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing) The difference between copper, and other rigid piping/cpcv, and PEX is in the amount of expansion and contraction it will allow with thermal changes. PEX has a much higher expansion coefficient and is thus more resistant to bursting when frozen, although that is not an infinite ability ... particularly with regard to the fitting points and connections. Although there is much more room for error with regard to draining, the weakest points would be at fittings and connections, which basically means prudence dictates treating it as if it would be advisable to drain if the thermal conditions indicate. -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#58
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 7:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing) If you drain it you don't have to wait as long for the ice to melt before you can use the outside hose bib again. |
#59
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 7:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC? Hell I was thinking inside closed WALLS. AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing, at less cost? For some one that does not like to look at a PEX installation there must be some kind of filtering eye wear to cancel out the presence and appearance of the wiring! That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and _ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply elsewhere, eh? Yeah, I was really kinda impressed seeing the red and blue, sorry, PEX pipes running every where. |
#60
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/12 7:12 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke" The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee. Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper pipe. And if you have any oak in the house, you're screwed. :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#61
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:33:56 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote: On 4/12/12 9:19 PM, wrote: I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves. While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it maintains the trap water to keep out the stink. I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final install. Is there a reason for this, other than looks? I was planning on replacing it, but honestly, I can't think of easier access for clean-out. There are good traps that are as easy to clean out, and won't deteriorate into mush in 5 years. I used one ONCE. Never again. The interior went first - everything stuck to it, so the drain was ALWAYS slow. I put in a self clearing trap. It has a "vane" for lack of a better description that you turn with a knob and the trap is cleared of whatever has deposited in it. Made of clear Lexan, if I remember correctly. I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper, or a clamped joint on PEX. Again, why? Do they have a track record of leaking? Not that I'm aware of, or I wouldn't use them at all, particularly in difficult applications. I just find them expensive, clunky, and complex for normal use. Heck, I can solder, so why would I use them for normal joints???? I haven't been using sharkbites for standard, permanent connections, simply because crimps are so cheap and easy. But the sharkbite valves are only about 20% more than regular valves and are high quality ball valves. Perhaps in PEX I might use them - if I were to use PEX. |
#62
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote: Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too expensive and I don't trust them. The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four houses, all done by amateur labour. As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material) The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee. ----------- "Mike Marlow" wrote in message .. . Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value, but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them. I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or are yours different from what I see around here? |
#63
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote: On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote: On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote: Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house many in jurisdictions across the US. Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of the art. Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building standards boards retire, that should be subject to change. Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2 day's labor, then have to go find another client? +1 Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money. But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze either. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold. However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs) |
#64
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:58:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC? Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not intentionally. AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing, at less cost? That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and _ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply elsewhere, eh? |
#65
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Shear strength of screws
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:25:54 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote: On 4/13/2012 7:58 AM, Swingman wrote: On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC? Hell I was thinking inside closed WALLS. AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing, at less cost? Around here the plumbing is in the BASEMENT. I know much of the USA hasn't got a clue what a basement is. Crawl-space or cellar, perhaps - but not an actual useable basement. For some one that does not like to look at a PEX installation there must be some kind of filtering eye wear to cancel out the presence and appearance of the wiring! That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and _ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply elsewhere, eh? Yeah, I was really kinda impressed seeing the red and blue, sorry, PEX pipes running every where. |
#66
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote: On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote: On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote: Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house many in jurisdictions across the US. Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of the art. Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building standards boards retire, that should be subject to change. Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2 day's labor, then have to go find another client? +1 Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money. But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze either. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold. However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs) But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on? |
#67
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 1:22 PM, wrote:
Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not intentionally. It's standard procedure in almost all single story structures in the Southern and Western states of the US, particularly in what is known as "Hot Humid Climates", typically areas like the Gulf Coast where basements are mostly out of the question due water tables, and 99.9% of residential foundations are slab on grade. That said, unvented attics, where all plumbing and HVAC duct work are within the thermal envelope, is gaining some traction, although relatively expensive and does have it's own drawbacks. Besides, how else would plumbers, sheetrockers and painter's make it through a harsh winter without some burst pipe work?? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#68
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 1:26 PM, wrote:
Around here the plumbing is in the BASEMENT. I know much of the USA hasn't got a clue what a basement is. Crawl-space or cellar, perhaps - but not an actual useable basement. And why do you suppose that is? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#69
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:58:04 -0500, wrote: On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC? Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not intentionally. Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where else would you run the plumbing? ;~) |
#70
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM, wrote:
I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold. However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs) Frost proof hose bibs are code requirements in most jurisdiction these days, even on the Gulf Coast, and for a good reason. Contrary to what you may think, a standard hose bib is more likely to be the cause of frozen pipes in this area (Gulf Coast) and in relative moderate freezing temperatures (+/- 20 to 32 C), than a pipe in an attic (which rarely freeze here except when the temperatures stay in the low to mid teens (C) for more than 24 hours), and the house is unheated or unoccupied. With most attic pipes between joists, and below the required R-30 insulation , the ambient temperature from the rooms below will generally protect attic pipes for most of our coldest winters -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#71
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/12 2:20 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote: On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote: On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote: On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote: On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote: On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote: Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house many in jurisdictions across the US. Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of the art. Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building standards boards retire, that should be subject to change. Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2 day's labor, then have to go find another client? +1 Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money. But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned. I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks of copper how copper is typically installed. In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper pipes seem to be the first to burst. Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze either. PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10 year warranty. Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running water for all of the i other nterior faucets. I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold. However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs) I have never had problems with pipes freezing in our house, apparently my neighbour has, although I have seen her walking around *in* her house with her winter coat on for hours. Same idiot never takes the cover off her A/C either, so I have no idea how often if ever she lets the furnace run. *shakes head* -- Froz... The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance. |
#72
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Shear strength of screws
wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: In article , says... On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote: Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too expensive and I don't trust them. The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four houses, all done by amateur labour. As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material) The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee. ----------- "Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value, but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them. I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or are yours different from what I see around here? Not sure Clare. I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy. Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more permanant - I sweat a joint. -- -Mike- |
#73
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Shear strength of screws
wrote:
Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not intentionally. Correct. Maybe it's a regional thing, but in the NE, we don't run water lines into the attic. The attic is supposed to be very cold in the winter and very hot in the summer. We keep our water lines located in the more comfortable areas of the house. -- -Mike- |
#74
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Shear strength of screws
Swingman wrote:
That said, unvented attics, where all plumbing and HVAC duct work are within the thermal envelope, is gaining some traction, although relatively expensive and does have it's own drawbacks. Much different than up here - though it may make sense in that climate. Besides, how else would plumbers, sheetrockers and painter's make it through a harsh winter without some burst pipe work?? Don't your plumbers make enough money during the prime season to take the winters off?... -- -Mike- |
#75
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Shear strength of screws
Leon wrote:
Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where else would you run the plumbing? ;~) That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas! -- -Mike- |
#76
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Shear strength of screws
wrote:
Around here the plumbing is in the BASEMENT. I know much of the USA hasn't got a clue what a basement is. Crawl-space or cellar, perhaps - but not an actual useable basement. Bah! Crawl spaces are for cheapskates and know-nothings! Just get on your back one time in one of those, trying to install a wire run, and you'll quickly learn to hate those damned things! Besides - you can have sex in a basement. Try that in a crawl space and all you end up with is flooring nails poking you in the damned ass! -- -Mike- |
#77
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Shear strength of screws
Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 1:26 PM, wrote: Around here the plumbing is in the BASEMENT. I know much of the USA hasn't got a clue what a basement is. Crawl-space or cellar, perhaps - but not an actual useable basement. And why do you suppose that is? Sigh... Because our work is daunting, and laid out before us, to educate the rest of the country. If you other guys would just pay attention to what we are trying to tell you... -- -Mike- |
#78
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 2:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote: That said, unvented attics, where all plumbing and HVAC duct work are within the thermal envelope, is gaining some traction, although relatively expensive and does have it's own drawbacks. Much different than up here - though it may make sense in that climate. Besides, how else would plumbers, sheetrockers and painter's make it through a harsh winter without some burst pipe work?? Don't your plumbers make enough money during the prime season to take the winters off?... Only the "snowbirds", AKA "Winter Texans", many who are/were union trades people, who come down here in the winter (to rest? ... while they collected unemployment when it is too cold to work up North). In case you think I'm joking ... I'm not. Although it is not as prevalent as it used to be (maybe they finally gave up and stayed, or the over the border competition got too tough, or they don't habla espanol enough, who knows?). I used to hire them during the winter down here (and yes, while they were still drawing unemployment)... and, for the most part, much better carpenters, framers and trades than the run of the mill is down here today. Those were the good ol days, eh? -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#79
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where else would you run the plumbing? ;~) That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas! I'll give you a dime for every basement in the Texas if you'll give me a penny for everyone in the "frost belt". They're not unheard of, but rarer than unicorn poop on a roof. Occasionally someone (usually from the NE) with more money than sense, will get a code variance at huge cost and risk and actually build one .... in the trade we call them what they will soon be ... "indoor swimming pools". -- www.eWoodShop.com Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) http://gplus.to/eWoodShop |
#80
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Shear strength of screws
On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote: Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where else would you run the plumbing? ;~) That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas! We reload on the front porch right next to the washing machine. ;~) |
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