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Default Shear strength of screws

-MIKE- wrote:


I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze
burst. I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and
valves.


Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.


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On Apr 6, 12:05*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." *I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?


When in doubt, put in another screw for redundancy. If
they're going to fail, in all likelihood, they're going to fail
one screw at a time.
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Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 12:56:16 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 4/12/12 12:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1

Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.


Except that a good General Contractor isn't an idiot and keeps track of
the prevailing labor rates and costs of materials and know what a job
should cost. Free market would drive that other plumber out of business
real quick when the $1400 guy starts getting all the work. Hence, his
other old school buddy down on the local code board.


But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


Boooo! Bad answer, you sound like an old guy. :-)
There are lazy, sloppy plumbers who do shoddy work with whatever
material they are working with. I've seen some ugly ass copper piping
with big balls of solder stuck all over the joints and all kinds of
extraneous elbows and crap with bad decisions in where to run the lines
where the lines are in the way of everything that comes later, pipes too
close to the outside of studs and plates. And I've seen great copper
jobs.... the kind that belongs in instruction books.

In my experience, the guys who care about their work, care about it when
they did copper and they care about it after moving to Pex. Why run Pex
in straight run with 90 degree bends if you don't have to? If it's not
in the way and it makes sense, why do it it based on the same physical
restrictions as copper? If it's neater to do it that way and works out
better, then do it. But don't do it just because "that's the way we did
copper."

I've seen some beautiful Pex runs from manifolds and nothing was messy
and you could trace every line. It's the plumber, not the plumbing.

Let's just put it this way. It's easier to make a messy looking
leakproof job in Pex than it is in copper. And it's a lot easier to
make a neat looking job with copper - particularly if you know what
you are doing with the copper. It was a lot easier with pB solder too.


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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:21:53 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:32 PM, wrote:

No, but it means it can be SPEC'd. If the engineer signs off on the
design using a "code compliant" Timberlok in place of say, aStrongTie
and 12 nails, it is going to be pretty difficult for an inspector to
fail the structure on the basis of their correctly applied use.


And it IS acceptable for an engineer to spec "or equivalent" in the
design, particularly if he provides the specification the device must
meet -such as pull-out strength and shear strength.


Absolutely no argument that anything can be spec'ed ... (and this has
gotten off the intended beaten path and onto a rabbit trail).

However, and in MY experience, an engineer or architect will rarely
attempt to specify (as with the aforementioned use of PEX) something
that is specifically disallowed in the jurisdiction's building code
(even if by default, as when specifically stating where they (screws in
this case) _can_ be used ... as with ledger boards, decks, etc) if a
solution that is unquestionably, and specifically in compliance, is
indeed available.

And for good reason ... it _always_ costs (me, mostly) time, money and,
most importantly, GOOD WILL, for any of the parties involved being
forced to take issue with an inspector ... and any architect or engineer
who puts me in that position without good reason stands a good chance of
not being on the next job.

That said, back to the main issue:

No disrespect intended at all, I was simply taking exception to what
appears to be an qualified statement that since a screw type fastener is
deemed to be "fully code compliant", to infer that it may be used,
without regard, as an optional replacement, is both arguably incorrect,
and misleading to the intended audience.

I maintain, once again, that the ONLY reasonable action is to check both
your local building code, and engineer approved structural plan, BEFORE
using _any_ fastener in structural members just about anywhere in North
America.

Correct - you give the spec sheet of the product you would like to use
to the inspector and tell him you want to use these - does he have any
problems allowing them.
It's a nobrainer to use ONE device that installs in a minute or two
and costs a buck instead of a complex strap arrangement that takes 5
minutes or more to install, in 13 pieces, and costs two bucks, if you
can get the inspector's permission. The inspector may want to see a
sample of an installation that he can whack at with a crow-bar or
hammer to satisfy HIMSELF that it is an acceptable solution.

Had a friend designed a very thermally efficient house, using modular
insulated panels, built on-site, instead of a traditional studded
wall. The inspector said "prove to me this panel is as strong as or
stronger than the traditional wall and I'll allow it".

When he drove his 3/4 ton 4X4 up a ramp consisting of a wall panel,
the inspector was duly impressed and gave him the go-ahead.
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:31:42 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 4/12/12 2:12 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
wrote:


But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


That's my biggest complaint with PEX - which admitedly, has nothing to do
with the product, but has everything to do with the installation. Installed
professionaly, it can look and perform as well as copper or CPVC, but it
seems the stuff is just plopped in place and it looks like hell.


I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst.
I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves.

While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink
while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap
connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in
about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it
maintains the trap water to keep out the stink.

I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final
install. I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering
would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to
disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't
use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper,
or a clamped joint on PEX.
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 13:49:20 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
wrote:

On Apr 6, 12:05Â*pm, Gramp's shop wrote:
I've always taken a serendipity view of screw gauge when doing rough
stuff as in "hey, I'd better use a bigger screw for this." Â*I need to
cobble together some two bys for a frame for a basement storage rack.
I've got a box of number 9 2 1/2 inchers that ought to do the trick.

Question: Is there a formula for determining the minimum gauge for a
screw if you know the load?


When in doubt, put in another screw for redundancy. If
they're going to fail, in all likelihood, they're going to fail
one screw at a time.

Unless even 2 is not strong enough, where both can, and often do,
fail virtually at the same time. Ore one will fail, without being
noticed, and a significant time later the second fails
catastrophically.

Better to use overkill on one than use 2 too small fasteners.

Better yet, overkill on more than one.
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




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On 4/12/12 9:19 PM, wrote:
I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst.
I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves.

While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink
while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap
connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in
about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it
maintains the trap water to keep out the stink.

I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final
install.


Is there a reason for this, other than looks?
I was planning on replacing it, but honestly, I can't think of easier
access for clean-out.


I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering
would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to
disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't
use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper,
or a clamped joint on PEX.


Again, why? Do they have a track record of leaking?
I haven't been using sharkbites for standard, permanent connections,
simply because crimps are so cheap and easy. But the sharkbite valves
are only about 20% more than regular valves and are high quality ball
valves.


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--
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.


Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively
soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper
pipe.
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On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?


+1

Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing)
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On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:



But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter
I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold
and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running
water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a
shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased
functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC?

AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time
in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation
looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less
expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing,
at less cost?

That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of
work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and
_ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply
elsewhere, eh?

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On 4/13/2012 7:12 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.


Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively
soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper
pipe.


As it turns out, rodent damage is one of the few drawbacks of using PEX.
Maximum effective pest control is an _absolute requirement_ for anyone
contemplating using the product.

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
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On 4/13/2012 7:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing)


The difference between copper, and other rigid piping/cpcv, and PEX is
in the amount of expansion and contraction it will allow with thermal
changes.

PEX has a much higher expansion coefficient and is thus more resistant
to bursting when frozen, although that is not an infinite ability ...
particularly with regard to the fitting points and connections.

Although there is much more room for error with regard to draining, the
weakest points would be at fittings and connections, which basically
means prudence dictates treating it as if it would be advisable to drain
if the thermal conditions indicate.

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On 4/13/2012 7:48 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Is there any need to drain PEX? (Despite it's resistance to freezing)




If you drain it you don't have to wait as long for the ice to melt
before you can use the outside hose bib again.
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On 4/13/2012 7:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:



But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter
I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold
and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running
water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a
shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased
functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC?


Hell I was thinking inside closed WALLS.


AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time
in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation
looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less
expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing,
at less cost?


For some one that does not like to look at a PEX installation there must
be some kind of filtering eye wear to cancel out the presence and
appearance of the wiring!


That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of
work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and
_ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply
elsewhere, eh?


Yeah, I was really kinda impressed seeing the red and blue, sorry, PEX
pipes running every where.


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On 4/13/12 7:12 AM, Dave wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.


Don't know about mouse pee, but I've been thinking that the relatively
soft outer shell of PEX would be more apt to be chewed on than copper
pipe.


And if you have any oak in the house, you're screwed. :-)


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On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 23:33:56 -0500, -MIKE-
wrote:

On 4/12/12 9:19 PM, wrote:
I would rank it higher given the claims to be impervious to freeze burst.
I'm also in love with these gator/shark/etc. connectors and valves.

While remodeling the bathrooms, I planned to keep a working vanity sink
while it's all going on. Those gator valves and a rubber P-trap
connected with a hose clamp allow me to move the vanity in and out in
about 3 minutes. I leave the P-trap connected to the wall waste and it
maintains the trap water to keep out the stink.

I sure hope you get rid of the rubber trap when you do the final
install.


Is there a reason for this, other than looks?
I was planning on replacing it, but honestly, I can't think of easier
access for clean-out.

There are good traps that are as easy to clean out, and won't
deteriorate into mush in 5 years. I used one ONCE. Never again. The
interior went first - everything stuck to it, so the drain was ALWAYS
slow. I put in a self clearing trap. It has a "vane" for lack of a
better description that you turn with a knob and the trap is cleared
of whatever has deposited in it. Made of clear Lexan, if I remember
correctly.

I use sharkbites on copper in locations where soldering
would be difficult/dangerous/impossible or where I can see having to
disconnect them sometime in the possibly forseable future. I wouldn't
use them as standard practice in place of a soldered joint on copper,
or a clamped joint on PEX.


Again, why? Do they have a track record of leaking?


Not that I'm aware of, or I wouldn't use them at all, particularly in
difficult applications. I just find them expensive, clunky, and
complex for normal use. Heck, I can solder, so why would I use them
for normal joints????
I haven't been using sharkbites for standard, permanent connections,
simply because crimps are so cheap and easy. But the sharkbite valves
are only about 20% more than regular valves and are high quality ball
valves.

Perhaps in PEX I might use them - if I were to use PEX.
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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings. Too
expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in four
houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)


The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse pee
as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
.. .
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize their
value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1

Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.


Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)

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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:58:04 -0500, Swingman wrote:

On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:



But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter
I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold
and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running
water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a
shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased
functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC?


Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing
things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD
be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not
intentionally.

AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time
in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation
looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less
expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing,
at less cost?

That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of
work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and
_ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply
elsewhere, eh?


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On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:25:54 -0500, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/13/2012 7:58 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM, wrote:



But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter
I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold
and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running
water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a
shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased
functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC?


Hell I was thinking inside closed WALLS.


AAMOF, unless someone spends a lot of their warm fuzzy navel gazing time
in the attic, who gives a flying **** what a PEX homerun installation
looks like as long as it's effective, equally functional, less
expensive, and with more options for the convenience of zone plumbing,
at less cost?



Around here the plumbing is in the BASEMENT. I know much of the USA
hasn't got a clue what a basement is. Crawl-space or cellar, perhaps -
but not an actual useable basement.


For some one that does not like to look at a PEX installation there must
be some kind of filtering eye wear to cancel out the presence and
appearance of the wiring!


That said, I've yet to see one of my plumbing contractors do the kind of
work with PEX I have seen decried here ... quality supervision and
_ethical contractors_ must obviously be in damned short supply
elsewhere, eh?


Yeah, I was really kinda impressed seeing the red and blue, sorry, PEX
pipes running every where.




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On 4/13/2012 1:20 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.


Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)



But should you develop a leak at any fixture or pipe leading to that
fixture can you isolate that feed and leave every thing else on?
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On 4/13/2012 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:58:04 -0500, wrote:

On 4/13/2012 7:22 AM, Leon wrote:
On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:


But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.

I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous winter
I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the manifold
and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had running
water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


Leon, Bubba ... you mean you haven't yet figured out that we live in a
shallow thinking culture that prizes "looks" over increased
functionality and efficiency ... in a farking dark ATTIC?


Water pipes in the ATTIC?? Now that's a bass ackwards way of doing
things - at least it would be up here. Water pipes in the attic WOULD
be likely to freeze. We don't heat our attics - at least not
intentionally.


Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)

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On 4/13/12 2:20 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:22:27 -0500, Leonlcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 4/12/2012 12:40 PM,
wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 09:50:37 -0500, wrote:

On 4/12/2012 9:44 AM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 4/12/12 9:35 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 4/12/2012 8:20 AM, Dave wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 08:05:03 -0500, wrote:
Pex is "fully code compliant", just try using it in building a house
many in jurisdictions across the US.

Has there been noticeable resistance to it? To me anyway, it looks
like the ultimate plumbing product. At least for the current state of
the art.

Absolutely in some areas, to the point that it can not be used. Although
as soon as some of these old farts on jurisdiction's zoning and building
standards boards retire, that should be subject to change.


Tru dat. Most resistance to new, better technology comes from old school
technophobes often entrenched in a corrupt system protecting their
fellow old schoolers and the technology they profit the most from. If
you can sit on a house for 3 days, sweating copper and charging like
it's rocket surgery, why would you switch to Pex and only get a 1/2
day's labor, then have to go find another client?

+1
Makes a lot of sense when you quote the job on a contract basis
instead of time and materials. Contractor is used to, say, $3500 to
plumb the house in copper, so he's REAL happy to pay $2500 to have it
done in PEX - while $1400 would still be making the plumber money.

But in MY opinion, a house plumbed with copper just looks so much
NEATER, and more professional than the "spiderwebs" of PEX that I see
in a lot of new houses. Nothing requires PEX to be run in straight
lines with neat 90 degree bends - so the "cheap" plumber just runs the
crap in the shortest, easiest route, looks be damned.


I prefer the advantages of how PEX is usually installed over the looks
of copper how copper is typically installed.

In south Texas we ocassionally get a harsh winter. Pipes freeze, copper
pipes seem to be the first to burst.


Up here we occaisionally do NOT get harsh winters, and I've never had
one of my copper pipes burst - but then I don't allow them to freeze
either.

PEX expands and is less likely to break and in my case comes with a 10
year warranty.
Additionally PEX is normally run through a mainfold. The previous
winter I was able to shut off water to the out side hose bibs from the
manifold and open the bibs to drain the water before the freeze. I had
running water for all of the i other nterior faucets.


I can do that in my copper plumbed house too, with no manifold.
However, I've chosen to use hydrants instead (frost-proof hose bibs)

I have never had problems with pipes freezing in our house, apparently
my neighbour has, although I have seen her walking around *in* her house
with her winter coat on for hours. Same idiot never takes the cover off
her A/C either, so I have no idea how often if ever she lets the furnace
run.

*shakes head*
--
Froz...


The system will be down for 10 days for preventive maintenance.
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wrote:
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 07:33:16 -0400, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:57:59 -0400, "m II" wrote:

Did my house in PEX but I will never use those sharkbite fittings.
Too expensive and I don't trust them.

The pinch ring fittings work fabulous and never seen one leak in
four houses, all done by amateur labour.


As long as you use good pinch rings and the proper tool. My one
reservation with the rings is how long will they last, and what
happens if one corrodes in the wall? (say a mouse ****es on it, or
some other chemical reaction weakens the clamp material)


The rings are copper, they should be at least as resistant to mouse
pee as copper pipe, and there's a lot less area exposed to mouse pee.

-----------
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message
...
Ugh! I just can't warm to those. I've used them and I realize
their value,
but I just cannot get over the movement of the joint with them.




I thought the clips were aluminum or steel. Are they tinned copper, or
are yours different from what I see around here?


Not sure Clare. I just bought what Home Depot had (Sharkbite). They did go
together just as advertised, and they are indeed leak proof, so no complaint
on that end. But - they don't make a rigid run. The line in and the line
out have quite a bit of play in them so the entire run is somewhat floppy.
Probably will never leak, but it will always be floppy unless you put in
some additional hangers. For a quick fix - I use them. For something more
permanant - I sweat a joint.

--

-Mike-



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Swingman wrote:


That said, unvented attics, where all plumbing and HVAC duct work are
within the thermal envelope, is gaining some traction, although
relatively expensive and does have it's own drawbacks.


Much different than up here - though it may make sense in that climate.


Besides, how else would plumbers, sheetrockers and painter's make it
through a harsh winter without some burst pipe work??


Don't your plumbers make enough money during the prime season to take the
winters off?...

--

-Mike-



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Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)


That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!

--

-Mike-





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On 4/13/2012 2:48 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Swingman wrote:


That said, unvented attics, where all plumbing and HVAC duct work are
within the thermal envelope, is gaining some traction, although
relatively expensive and does have it's own drawbacks.


Much different than up here - though it may make sense in that climate.


Besides, how else would plumbers, sheetrockers and painter's make it
through a harsh winter without some burst pipe work??


Don't your plumbers make enough money during the prime season to take the
winters off?...


Only the "snowbirds", AKA "Winter Texans", many who are/were union
trades people, who come down here in the winter (to rest? ... while they
collected unemployment when it is too cold to work up North).

In case you think I'm joking ... I'm not.

Although it is not as prevalent as it used to be (maybe they finally
gave up and stayed, or the over the border competition got too tough, or
they don't habla espanol enough, who knows?).

I used to hire them during the winter down here (and yes, while they
were still drawing unemployment)... and, for the most part, much better
carpenters, framers and trades than the run of the mill is down here today.

Those were the good ol days, eh?

--
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On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)


That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!


I'll give you a dime for every basement in the Texas if you'll give me a
penny for everyone in the "frost belt".

They're not unheard of, but rarer than unicorn poop on a roof.

Occasionally someone (usually from the NE) with more money than sense,
will get a code variance at huge cost and risk and actually build one
.... in the trade we call them what they will soon be ... "indoor
swimming pools".

--
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Last update: 4/15/2010
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On 4/13/2012 2:53 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Leon wrote:

Yeah, considering relatively no one has a basement in the south, where
else would you run the plumbing? ;~)


That is so funny. For those of us in the frost belt, we cannot conceive of
a house without a basement - or at least a crawl space (a cheap alternative
that raises at least one eyebrow...) under a home. Hell - it ain't a home
without a basement. Where the hell do you guys do your reloading? Can't
put an ammo bench out in the garage - it gets all dirty'd up from painting
cars! Where do you put the pool table? The wife's sewing room? Ya just
can't really have a home without a basement. Even in Texas!


We reload on the front porch right next to the washing machine. ;~)
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