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  #1   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Wood Magazine this month has a great article comparing the major brand
glues. The 6 page article tests for strength and water resistance.

In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB II
joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I guess
you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about the TB III compared to
Polyurethanes for water resistance. Polyurethanes win. In the same test as
mentioned above, the Elmer's ProBond and Gorilla Glue Polyurethane joint
held up to almost 1000 PSI. TB III held up to 200 PSI.


I think I will send an email to Franklin and see what they have to say about
this article.


  #2   Report Post  
Vic Baron
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Gee! Next time I build an underwater cabinet I'll remember not to use it

Vic

"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Wood Magazine this month has a great article comparing the major brand
glues. The 6 page article tests for strength and water resistance.

In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB

II
joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I

guess
you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about the TB III compared to
Polyurethanes for water resistance. Polyurethanes win. In the same test

as
mentioned above, the Elmer's ProBond and Gorilla Glue Polyurethane joint
held up to almost 1000 PSI. TB III held up to 200 PSI.


I think I will send an email to Franklin and see what they have to say

about
this article.




  #3   Report Post  
RKON
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Leon:

I read the article today while at a beautiful beach. It was an excellent
article and they were pretty methodical and consistent in their testing. I
was impressed with the performance of the Good Ole Elmers. It just shows
what marketing can do. Oh BTW, did you see what was on the back cover of the
issue? " The Best Wood Glue Ever" Ouch....

Rich
"Leon" wrote in message
. ..
Wood Magazine this month has a great article comparing the major brand
glues. The 6 page article tests for strength and water resistance.

In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB

II
joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I

guess
you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about the TB III compared to
Polyurethanes for water resistance. Polyurethanes win. In the same test

as
mentioned above, the Elmer's ProBond and Gorilla Glue Polyurethane joint
held up to almost 1000 PSI. TB III held up to 200 PSI.


I think I will send an email to Franklin and see what they have to say

about
this article.




  #4   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"RKON" wrote in message
news:FPGHc.12447$r3.717@okepread03...
Leon:

I read the article today while at a beautiful beach. It was an excellent
article and they were pretty methodical and consistent in their testing. I
was impressed with the performance of the Good Ole Elmers. It just shows
what marketing can do. Oh BTW, did you see what was on the back cover of

the
issue? " The Best Wood Glue Ever" Ouch....


Reading at the beach.... hummm kicking back are you. Well, I went to see
Simon & Garfunkle in concert Wednesday night... That was a real treat.

Anyway... Best wood Glue ever... Yeah I saw that. I do believe that
Titebond is a good glue but apparently not the best. I have been using the
Titebond and Elmer's ProBond equally for the last umpteen years. I did
indeed send an email to Franklin and it will be interesting to see if Wood
got all the results mixed up or not. Titebond III claims vastly stronger
than polyurethane on that back cover. We'll see. I guess advertising
heavily on the back cover did not buy a fovorable review this time.


  #5   Report Post  
David
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak. I just glued up some table
legs yesterday with regular Titebond II. The glue bonds are
tenacious. Franklin's tech support tested a sample of the
glue from my bottle and claim it's ok. sigh.

dave

Leon wrote:

Wood Magazine this month has a great article comparing the major brand
glues. The 6 page article tests for strength and water resistance.

In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB II
joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I guess
you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.

There was a discussion a few weeks ago about the TB III compared to
Polyurethanes for water resistance. Polyurethanes win. In the same test as
mentioned above, the Elmer's ProBond and Gorilla Glue Polyurethane joint
held up to almost 1000 PSI. TB III held up to 200 PSI.


I think I will send an email to Franklin and see what they have to say about
this article.





  #6   Report Post  
Mike in Mystic
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"David" wrote in message
om...
and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak.


That's interesting. I've used the Titebond II Extend numerous times and
have had absolutely no problems with it. I also saw a little note in a
recent magazine (can't find it right off hand, but I'll look for it) that
did a similar comparison of glues (doing things like keeping glue-ups
submerged, microwaving them, etc.) and the Titebond III did very well,
comparable to polyurethane glue. I think the magazine might have been
woodworkers journal, but I'm not certain.

Mike


  #7   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

The TB II Extend did not do well in the test.

"David" wrote in message
om...
and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak. I just glued up some table
legs yesterday with regular Titebond II. The glue bonds are
tenacious. Franklin's tech support tested a sample of the
glue from my bottle and claim it's ok. sigh.



  #8   Report Post  
David
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

did you do any destructive tests on any joints glued up with
the Extend?


Mike in Mystic wrote:

"David" wrote in message
om...

and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak.



That's interesting. I've used the Titebond II Extend numerous times and
have had absolutely no problems with it. I also saw a little note in a
recent magazine (can't find it right off hand, but I'll look for it) that
did a similar comparison of glues (doing things like keeping glue-ups
submerged, microwaving them, etc.) and the Titebond III did very well,
comparable to polyurethane glue. I think the magazine might have been
woodworkers journal, but I'm not certain.

Mike



  #9   Report Post  
David
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

good! I'm not crazy after all! (I'm leaving myself open
with that one. g )

dave

Leon wrote:

The TB II Extend did not do well in the test.

"David" wrote in message
om...

and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak. I just glued up some table
legs yesterday with regular Titebond II. The glue bonds are
tenacious. Franklin's tech support tested a sample of the
glue from my bottle and claim it's ok. sigh.





  #10   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Leon" wrote in message

In a water resistant test, glued joints were submerged in water for 24
hours. Surprisingly Titebond III scored worse than Titebond II. The TB

II
joint held up to about 300 PSI. TB III failed at about 200 PSI. So I

guess
you should save your money. TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.


After reading the article, I wondered how realistic the test is. How many
joints get submerged for 24 hours? How does the submerged joint compare to
one with possibly a finish on the pieces and subjected to some rain over a
few days? How would it be if the pieces were allowed to dry out for a
couple of days?

I don't expect it to hold up submerged, but I do want to know how well it
hold up in typical outdoor furniture uses. Sometimes magazine testing is
not at all comparable to real life situations.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome






  #11   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
After reading the article, I wondered how realistic the test is. How many
joints get submerged for 24 hours? How does the submerged joint compare

to
one with possibly a finish on the pieces and subjected to some rain over a
few days? How would it be if the pieces were allowed to dry out for a
couple of days?

I don't expect it to hold up submerged, but I do want to know how well it
hold up in typical outdoor furniture uses. Sometimes magazine testing is
not at all comparable to real life situations.


I don't think it really matters how realistic the testings were. What
matters is that all glues were treated and tested the same. TBIII cost 60%
more and was out performed by TBII.


  #12   Report Post  
B a r r y
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:20:00 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.


But it's one better! G

Barry
  #13   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"B a r r y" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Jul 2004 22:20:00 GMT, "Leon"
wrote:

TBIII is typically 60% more expensive than TB
II.


But it's one better! G

LOL Yeah. So It must be, according to its name.


  #14   Report Post  
joey
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

"Leon" wrote in message
om...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...
After reading the article, I wondered how realistic the test is. How

many
joints get submerged for 24 hours? How does the submerged joint compare

to
one with possibly a finish on the pieces and subjected to some rain over

a
few days? How would it be if the pieces were allowed to dry out for a
couple of days?

I don't expect it to hold up submerged, but I do want to know how well

it
hold up in typical outdoor furniture uses. Sometimes magazine testing

is
not at all comparable to real life situations.


I don't think it really matters how realistic the testings were. What
matters is that all glues were treated and tested the same. TBIII cost

60%
more and was out performed by TBII.


Actually it might matter, true it failed this test but.. The test sounds
like a 1 time shock test and not repeated cycles of getting damp and drying
out over and over.. that would normally be the case outside over time. One
glue could very well maintain its strength or atleast deteriorate at a
lesser rate and another glue wouldn't. Sorta like a sprinter vs a marathon
runner.
Materials in my line of work are tested by repeated exposure to
hot/cold/humidity cycles
I haven't read the article I will get it I just glued up some outdoor bar
stools with TBIII and am curious. I choose it over GG because GG would be
hard to clean up in some of the tight areas, I did use GG for gluing up the
seat blanks
Joe


  #15   Report Post  
Mike in Mystic
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Ok, now I found what I remembered, it's from the most recent Popular
Woodworking (Aug. 2004), on page 25.

They compared Titebond III with Elmer's interior grade carpenters wood glue,
as well as Gorilla's polyurethane glue. They glued up panels with all three
and then ran them through dishwasher cycles. The Elmer's failed during the
first cycle, but neither the Titebond III or Gorilla's failed after 5
additional cycles. That sounds like a winner in my book, especially with a
10 minute open time and 47 degree minimum working temperature. I'll look
forward to reading the Wood comparison as well, though.

Mike

"Mike in Mystic" wrote in message
news

"David" wrote in message
om...
and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak.


That's interesting. I've used the Titebond II Extend numerous times and
have had absolutely no problems with it. I also saw a little note in a
recent magazine (can't find it right off hand, but I'll look for it) that
did a similar comparison of glues (doing things like keeping glue-ups
submerged, microwaving them, etc.) and the Titebond III did very well,
comparable to polyurethane glue. I think the magazine might have been
woodworkers journal, but I'm not certain.

Mike






  #16   Report Post  
Mike in Mystic
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Hi David,

I did a very rudimentary test the first time I used it. I face glued a
piece of ash about 3/4" thick and maybe 2 inches wide to a wider piece of
ash. I used about 8 inches of length and had about 4 inches extending past
one edge. I did the same thing for an edge joint, still 3/4" thick and
probably 6 inches of length and about 4 inches extending past one edge.

I let the joints cure overnight and the next day (approx. 24 hours later,
really) I tried to pull the joints apart. I really put a lot of force into
it and all I ended up doing was breaking the 3/4" edge joint piece, but the
glue joint didn't fail. I was sufficiently confident after that in the
Titebond II extend's ability to form strong glue joints.

I've used it on several projects, including gluing the edging around my
son's high chair tray. That thing get's more abuse than I ever imagined,
and more often than not is cleaned by taking a dripping wet soapy sponge and
scrubbing it. This happens 2-3 times a day and has been going on for about
3 months now. There isn't any sign of failure. I also used this glue to
face glue layers of MDF for my workbench, and several other projects where I
needed more time to get things aligned before clamping.

What was your experience that made you so worried about using it? I still
have about a gallon of it and would like to know if I've been making a poor
choice by using it.

Thanks!


"David" wrote in message
news
did you do any destructive tests on any joints glued up with
the Extend?


Mike in Mystic wrote:

"David" wrote in message
om...

and I don't think much of their Titebond II Extend. I
can't get a satisfactory bond. I'm afraid to use it on a
project because it's so weak.



That's interesting. I've used the Titebond II Extend numerous times and
have had absolutely no problems with it. I also saw a little note in a
recent magazine (can't find it right off hand, but I'll look for it)

that
did a similar comparison of glues (doing things like keeping glue-ups
submerged, microwaving them, etc.) and the Titebond III did very well,
comparable to polyurethane glue. I think the magazine might have been
woodworkers journal, but I'm not certain.

Mike





  #17   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"joey" wrote in message
news:_sSHc.52254$a24.46262@attbi_s03...

Actually it might matter, true it failed this test but.. The test sounds
like a 1 time shock test and not repeated cycles of getting damp and

drying
out over and over.. that would normally be the case outside over time. One
glue could very well maintain its strength or atleast deteriorate at a
lesser rate and another glue wouldn't. Sorta like a sprinter vs a marathon
runner.


No glue really failed the test, so much as TB III was out performed by TB II
and TB III is suppose to be warer proof and TB II is not.
I thought about different senerios, but this was IMHO a worst case situation
for testing water resistance. The TB II certainly would do just as well on
a lessor test.

Materials in my line of work are tested by repeated exposure to
hot/cold/humidity cycles


The TB II should do even better in a test like that as it is labeled Weather
Resistent.

I haven't read the article I will get it I just glued up some outdoor bar
stools with TBIII and am curious. I choose it over GG because GG would be
hard to clean up in some of the tight areas, I did use GG for gluing up

the
seat blanks


TB III did so poorly compared to TB II in the area that it should have
shined. I really have suspicions that the article got the spec's on the
glues mixed up.


  #19   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"J T" wrote in message
...
Sat, Jul 10, 2004, 3:50am (EDT+4) (Leon)
claims:
I don't think it really matters how realistic the testings were. What
matters is that all glues were treated and tested the same. TBIII cost
60% more and was out performed by TBII.

Of course it matters. To start with, if the wood wasn't painted,
epoxied, or some type of protection, it's pretty well meaningless as far
as I'm concerned. How many people re going to make a boat, then not
paint it? Or, make a lawn chair, and leave it out in a driving rain
without paint? Not too many.


Again regardless of the condidtion, the better glue performed worse than the
lessor glue in the area that the better glue should have stood out as being
better.


If a controlled test doesn't compare to real-life, then chances
are, the test is worthless. Besides, waay too many details left out -
for all I know, the glue could have held, and a thin layer of the
saturated wood just peeled off.


Apparently you have not read the article. I was not going to reprint the
article here, just giving the results of the article where the TB III water
proof glue should have done better than the non water proof glues. Again,
the joint on TB III did not fail, it simply was out performed by TBIII.

And, you didn't say how long the glue was given to set, if it was
clamped, and so on.


READ the article. The joints were clamped for the time recomended by the
maker and allowed to cure for 72 hours.

I've not used any Titebond III, and possibly never
will, because Titebond II does it for me. But, if I did use it, even in
a boat, I wouldn't be having it without some type of protection, i.e.,
paint, epoxy, fibreglass, etc., over it, and I wouldn't be worrying
about it holding..


The same for me. But after reading the article, I probably never would TB
III at all. If I need water proof I'll stick with Poly.


Details, more details.


READ THE ARTICLE




  #20   Report Post  
joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Ok the way I might have tried the test was test a pair of borad TII and T3
same glu up etc then test the bonding strenth say TB2 was 400 PSI and TB3
200 PSI. Then do the magazines test on anohter pair of boards if TB2 was
300PSI and TB3 was 200 PSI. A few more tests could show TB2 at 100 PSI and
TB3 still at 200PSI
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"joey" wrote in message
news:_sSHc.52254$a24.46262@attbi_s03...

Actually it might matter, true it failed this test but.. The test sounds
like a 1 time shock test and not repeated cycles of getting damp and

drying
out over and over.. that would normally be the case outside over time.

One
glue could very well maintain its strength or atleast deteriorate at a
lesser rate and another glue wouldn't. Sorta like a sprinter vs a

marathon
runner.


No glue really failed the test, so much as TB III was out performed by TB

II
and TB III is suppose to be warer proof and TB II is not.
I thought about different senerios, but this was IMHO a worst case

situation
for testing water resistance. The TB II certainly would do just as well

on
a lessor test.

You might very well be right andI need to get the article they may have
taken into account what I would have done
I might have tried the test this way ...test a pair of boards TII and T3
same glue up etc then test the bonding strength to establish a baseline...
say the results were TB2 was 400 PSI and TB3 200 PSI. Then do the magazines
test on another pair of boards cut from the same glue up and the results
were as you stated from their article TB2 was 300PSI and TB3 was still at
200 PSI. Repeat tests on these same boards could show TB2 at 100 PSI and
TB3 still at 200PSI etc..


Materials in my line of work are tested by repeated exposure to
hot/cold/humidity cycles


The TB II should do even better in a test like that as it is labeled

Weather
Resistent.

Why?

I haven't read the article I will get it I just glued up some outdoor

bar
stools with TBIII and am curious. I choose it over GG because GG would

be
hard to clean up in some of the tight areas, I did use GG for gluing up

the
seat blanks


TB III did so poorly compared to TB II in the area that it should have
shined. I really have suspicions that the article got the spec's on the
glues mixed up.


BTW I made a pair of these same stools about 12 years ago with (TB or TB2?)
and only recently did the seat glue ups and MT joints fail(So California so
not much rain etc..)




  #21   Report Post  
joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

oops cut and pasted failed previous post read down in that one
"joey" wrote in message
news:N1XHc.53343$MB3.28521@attbi_s04...
Ok the way I might have tried the test was test a pair of borad TII and T3
same glu up etc then test the bonding strenth say TB2 was 400 PSI and TB3
200 PSI. Then do the magazines test on anohter pair of boards if TB2 was
300PSI and TB3 was 200 PSI. A few more tests could show TB2 at 100 PSI and
TB3 still at 200PSI
"Leon" wrote in message
...

"joey" wrote in message
news:_sSHc.52254$a24.46262@attbi_s03...

Actually it might matter, true it failed this test but.. The test

sounds
like a 1 time shock test and not repeated cycles of getting damp and

drying
out over and over.. that would normally be the case outside over time.

One
glue could very well maintain its strength or atleast deteriorate at a
lesser rate and another glue wouldn't. Sorta like a sprinter vs a

marathon
runner.


No glue really failed the test, so much as TB III was out performed by

TB
II
and TB III is suppose to be warer proof and TB II is not.
I thought about different senerios, but this was IMHO a worst case

situation
for testing water resistance. The TB II certainly would do just as well

on
a lessor test.

You might very well be right andI need to get the article they may have
taken into account what I would have done
I might have tried the test this way ...test a pair of boards TII and T3
same glue up etc then test the bonding strength to establish a baseline...
say the results were TB2 was 400 PSI and TB3 200 PSI. Then do the

magazines
test on another pair of boards cut from the same glue up and the results
were as you stated from their article TB2 was 300PSI and TB3 was still at
200 PSI. Repeat tests on these same boards could show TB2 at 100 PSI and
TB3 still at 200PSI etc..


Materials in my line of work are tested by repeated exposure to
hot/cold/humidity cycles


The TB II should do even better in a test like that as it is labeled

Weather
Resistent.

Why?

I haven't read the article I will get it I just glued up some outdoor

bar
stools with TBIII and am curious. I choose it over GG because GG would

be
hard to clean up in some of the tight areas, I did use GG for gluing

up
the
seat blanks


TB III did so poorly compared to TB II in the area that it should have
shined. I really have suspicions that the article got the spec's on the
glues mixed up.


BTW I made a pair of these same stools about 12 years ago with (TB or

TB2?)
and only recently did the seat glue ups and MT joints fail(So California

so
not much rain etc..)




  #23   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"J T" wrote in message
.

I just checked Titebond.com. It does say Titebond III is
waterproof. Then it also says:
Limitations Not for continuous submersion or for use below the
waterline.


The author acknowledges the limiation but does it anyway. He notes that it
was a severe test. Sort of like testing bicycle tires by putting them on an
18 wheeler then saying they did not fare well.

I happen to like Wood magazine, but this test is completely wrong. The
product should have been tested within the limits of its design. Period.
The Titebond people could end up demanding a retraction and re-testing. I
would.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome




  #24   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"joey" wrote in message
Actually it might matter, true it failed this test but.. The test sounds
like a 1 time shock test and not repeated cycles of getting damp and

drying
out over and over.. that would normally be the case outside over time. One
glue could very well maintain its strength or atleast deteriorate at a
lesser rate and another glue wouldn't. Sorta like a sprinter vs a marathon
runner.


The test was done outside of the capability of the material. It is a bogus
test as the glue was not designed to be submerged. Reminds me of 20-20
setting GM trucks ablaze. Poor journalism on the part of the author and
editors of Wood magazine.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome


  #25   Report Post  
Jay Pique
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:18:36 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

The author acknowledges the limiation but does it anyway. He notes that it
was a severe test. Sort of like testing bicycle tires by putting them on an
18 wheeler then saying they did not fare well.

I happen to like Wood magazine, but this test is completely wrong. The
product should have been tested within the limits of its design. Period.
The Titebond people could end up demanding a retraction and re-testing. I
would.
Ed


I almost agree - and certainly would if my name were Franklin. I
believe the test is useful in a very limited context, ie. if only to
illustrate just how illusive some product comparisons can really be.

I'm in the "planning" stages of a comparison between the Three-Ts and
Gorilla glue. (Joints are glued and set, but not yet soaked and
separated by measured force.)

Perhaps I'll do the testing after 1, 3 and 24 hours for each of the
three samples I've made. Statistically probably not a large enough
sample size for any real conclusions, but potentially a spur to
Titebond to come clean on "waterproof" but not to be submerged. And
why did T2 fare better?

JP
**************
T1 user 98% of the time...the other two reserved for CA on my wounds!


  #26   Report Post  
RKON
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

The test was done outside of the capability of the material. It is a

bogus
test as the glue was not designed to be submerged. Reminds me of 20-20
setting GM trucks ablaze. Poor journalism on the part of the author and
editors of Wood magazine.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome


Hold on there Ed. The back cover of the same issue. It reads "The Best Wood
Glue Ever". It goes on to say What makes Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue
the best ever? It's Waterproof, yet it cleans up with water......

In case one forgot what waterprrof means:

wa·ter·proof - Impervious to or unaffected by water.

I do not see any asterisks or footnotes on the Ad. I think they are making a
bold claim and they are fair game. If they can't even compete then maybe
they should have it read " The Best Wood Glue Ever as long as you don't
immerse it Water" And based on the tests it doesn't appear to be the best
regardless.

It seems to me that marketing went a bit to far and they are coming unglued
in their claims. I wouldn't jump all over the testing performed in the
article. They have set themselves up by making the bold claims.
You don't use Titebond by chance do you?

Rich


  #27   Report Post  
David
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Excellent point! 'Waterproof' claims are far different than
merely 'water resistant'. A submersion test seems
legitimate. I doubt Franklin can pursue any legal recourse
against the magazine.

RKON wrote:
"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

The test was done outside of the capability of the material. It is a


bogus

test as the glue was not designed to be submerged. Reminds me of 20-20
setting GM trucks ablaze. Poor journalism on the part of the author and
editors of Wood magazine.
Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome



Hold on there Ed. The back cover of the same issue. It reads "The Best Wood
Glue Ever". It goes on to say What makes Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue
the best ever? It's Waterproof, yet it cleans up with water......

In case one forgot what waterprrof means:

wa·ter·proof - Impervious to or unaffected by water.

I do not see any asterisks or footnotes on the Ad. I think they are making a
bold claim and they are fair game. If they can't even compete then maybe
they should have it read " The Best Wood Glue Ever as long as you don't
immerse it Water" And based on the tests it doesn't appear to be the best
regardless.

It seems to me that marketing went a bit to far and they are coming unglued
in their claims. I wouldn't jump all over the testing performed in the
article. They have set themselves up by making the bold claims.
You don't use Titebond by chance do you?

Rich



  #28   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"RKON" wrote in message
Hold on there Ed. The back cover of the same issue. It reads "The Best

Wood
Glue Ever". It goes on to say What makes Titebond III Ultimate Wood Glue
the best ever? It's Waterproof, yet it cleans up with water......

In case one forgot what waterprrof means:

wa·ter·proof - Impervious to or unaffected by water.

I do not see any asterisks or footnotes on the Ad. I think they are making

a
bold claim and they are fair game.


On the label of the glue it reads:
Passes ANSI/HPVA Type 1 Water Resistance

I'll agree that water proof and water resistance are different according to
the dictionary. Given that though, the label gives a specification so
testing should be done in compliance with the intended use.

The following was found in a forum on
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...195230912.html

What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II
water-resistance specification?
Both of these tests are conducted using 6" by 6" birch laminates glued
together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more
stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing the
specimens while they are wet.
Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3"
specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145°F
oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then
immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while wet,
and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to
pass the Type I specification.

Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5"
specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120°F
oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the
bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification.



If they can't even compete then maybe
they should have it read " The Best Wood Glue Ever as long as you don't
immerse it Water" And based on the tests it doesn't appear to be the best
regardless.


Looks like a 4 hour test is OK, not a 24 hour test.


It seems to me that marketing went a bit to far and they are coming

unglued
in their claims. I wouldn't jump all over the testing performed in the
article. They have set themselves up by making the bold claims.
You don't use Titebond by chance do you?


I recently bought some for a couple of outdoor furniture projects. I used
TB II the last time and it is holding up well, so this time I tried the TB
III. I expect it will take the exposure typical of outdoor furniture, but I
have no plans to use in in anything submersed. I'd use epoxy for that. I
don't think the 24 hour test if fair to any adhesive. OK, you may want to
try it just for the fun of it, but I'd not make poor performance claims for
something not made to endure the particular test.
Ed


  #29   Report Post  
RKON
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

This is how they cover their dupa's:

Found at the bottom of their web page:
http://titebond.com/IntroPageTB.ASP?....asp?prodcat=1

Important Notice: Our recommendations, if any, for the use of this product
are based on tests believed to be reliable. Since the use of this product is
beyond the control of the manufacturer, no guarantee or warranty, expressed
or implied, is made as to such use or effects incidental to such use,
handling or possession or the results to be obtained, whether in accordance
with the directions or claimed so to be. The manufacturer expressly
disclaims responsibility therefore. Furthermore, nothing contained herein
shall be construed as a recommendation to use any product in conflict with
existing laws and/or patents covering any material or use.

1.) Our recommendations, if any, for the use of this product are based on
tests believed to be reliable. - *** Translates to we tested it looks okay
by our standards..

2.) Since the use of this product is beyond the control of the manufacturer,
no guarantee or warranty, expressed or implied, is made as to such use or
effects incidental to such use, handling or possession or the results to be
obtained, whether in accordance with the directions or claimed so to be.
***They don't stand behind their product because it doesn't work as their
marketing says.

3.) The manufacturer expressly disclaims responsibility therefore.
Furthermore, nothing contained herein shall be construed as a recommendation
to use any product in conflict with existing laws and/or patents covering
any material or use.
*** If it doesn't work and you followed the directions to the letter you are
SOL and they are covered.


They are scamming you with their marketing. The tests by Wood prove that
they are not the " The Best Wood Glue Ever". Their Glue probably works very
well for most glue-ups. I love the article because it exposes them for what
they are worth. Next Months issue will probably have some half ass
clarification and the Titebond ad will be still on the back page.

Rich







"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"RKON" wrote in message
Hold on there Ed. The back cover of the same issue. It reads "The Best

Wood
Glue Ever". It goes on to say What makes Titebond III Ultimate Wood

Glue
the best ever? It's Waterproof, yet it cleans up with water......

In case one forgot what waterprrof means:

wa·ter·proof - Impervious to or unaffected by water.

I do not see any asterisks or footnotes on the Ad. I think they are

making
a
bold claim and they are fair game.


On the label of the glue it reads:
Passes ANSI/HPVA Type 1 Water Resistance

I'll agree that water proof and water resistance are different according

to
the dictionary. Given that though, the label gives a specification so
testing should be done in compliance with the intended use.

The following was found in a forum on
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load...195230912.html

What is the difference between the ANSI/HPVA Type I and Type II
water-resistance specification?
Both of these tests are conducted using 6" by 6" birch laminates glued
together to make three-ply plywood. The test for Type I is clearly more
stringent than Type II, and involves boiling the glue bonds and testing

the
specimens while they are wet.
Type I testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 1" by 3"
specimens, boiling them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 145°F
oven for 20 hours. They are boiled for an additional 4 hours, then
immediately cooled using running water. The specimens are sheared while

wet,
and the bonds must pass certain strength and wood failure requirements to
pass the Type I specification.

Type II testing involves cutting the 6" by 6" assemblies into 2" by 5"
specimens, soaking them for 4 hours, then baking the specimens in a 120°F
oven for 19 hours. This is repeated for a total of three cycles, and the
bonds must not delaminate to pass the Type II specification.



If they can't even compete then maybe
they should have it read " The Best Wood Glue Ever as long as you don't
immerse it Water" And based on the tests it doesn't appear to be the

best
regardless.


Looks like a 4 hour test is OK, not a 24 hour test.


It seems to me that marketing went a bit to far and they are coming

unglued
in their claims. I wouldn't jump all over the testing performed in the
article. They have set themselves up by making the bold claims.
You don't use Titebond by chance do you?


I recently bought some for a couple of outdoor furniture projects. I used
TB II the last time and it is holding up well, so this time I tried the TB
III. I expect it will take the exposure typical of outdoor furniture, but

I
have no plans to use in in anything submersed. I'd use epoxy for that. I
don't think the 24 hour test if fair to any adhesive. OK, you may want to
try it just for the fun of it, but I'd not make poor performance claims

for
something not made to endure the particular test.
Ed




  #30   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

The test was done outside of the capability of the material. It is a

bogus
test as the glue was not designed to be submerged. Reminds me of 20-20
setting GM trucks ablaze. Poor journalism on the part of the author and
editors of Wood magazine.


Still it was done past the capacity of both materials and TB2 out performed
TB3.




Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome






  #31   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
On the label of the glue it reads:
Passes ANSI/HPVA Type 1 Water Resistance

I'll agree that water proof and water resistance are different according

to
the dictionary. Given that though, the label gives a specification so
testing should be done in compliance with the intended use.


The front label on TB III says WATER PROOF.


  #33   Report Post  
Leon
 
Posts: n/a
Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .

The author acknowledges the limiation but does it anyway. He notes that

it
was a severe test. Sort of like testing bicycle tires by putting them on

an
18 wheeler then saying they did not fare well.


Yes the test was severe. But one would think that TB3 would do better than
TB2. That's it.


I happen to like Wood magazine, but this test is completely wrong.


Wrong or not, if the results are correct, why does a water resistant glue do
better than a water proof glue when soaked in water?


The product should have been tested within the limits of its design.

Period.

The results would be the same. The TB2 was tested way farther than its
design limits than the TB3 was and it held up better.


The Titebond people could end up demanding a retraction and re-testing. I
would.



What do you think the results would chang to? I could see how there would
be a problem if the TB2 failed miserably against other water proof glues in
the PVA catagory because it is not sold as water proof. What reason could
the TB2 have done better in this water test against TB3.
Neither glue was designed to be used to this extreme but the glue that
should have done better, did not.








Ed

http://pages.cthome.net/edhome






  #34   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

Lets compare this in another way.

Lets take 2 different bolts that are manufactured by the same company bolts
and are tested the same by applying torque to them until they break and
record the torque reading.

Bolt TB2 is sold as a Premium Quality bolt, is 1/4" in diameter and breaks
at 750 foot pounds. Cost 25 cents.
Bolt TB3 is sold as an Extra Strong Premium Quality bolt, is 1/4" in
diameter and breaks at 500 goot pounds. Cost 40 cents

While the testing may not reflect normal torque applied to the bolts, which
one would you buy?






  #35   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Leon" wrote in message

You are totally missing the point here. TB3 claims "Water Proof" TB2
claims merely weather resistant. A reasonable person would expect TB3 to
out perform TB2 when water is introduced in the equation. As the test
indicates, TB2 holds up better than TB3 in water testing.



Based on a test that should not have been done in the manner it was. If
you get past the marketing hype, I wonder if the results would be
different under more realistic conditions. If they were both given a spray
of water similar to rainfall, followed by sunshine, then some morning dew,
etc. .

How many samples were tested? If could also be an anomaly if only one test
piece was done. If the results were the same in repeated testing I'd be
far more concerned. They also state that the same board was used in the
testing. We all know that wood can vary quite a bit over a few feet of
length. Could be a factor if only one sample was done and each type was
from a different section of the wood. .

There is no doubt the poly glues performed much better under the conditions
and I'd expect them to do so. I have to imagine that Franklin would have
done some testing to establish that TB3 is stronger than TB2 under normal
conditions or real use. FWIW, Franklin specs state that the TB2 meets the
Type II specs while the TB3 meets Type I specs.




  #36   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform

If your indicating that perhaps a larger sampling would give different
results, I agree. Like best 5 out of 8.

This could have been a fluke in that a lesser glue did better than a better
glue. Either way, in this particular test, neither glue had the advantage
as both test pieces were taken from the same board with IIRC consistent
grain.



  #37   Report Post  
Edwin Pawlowski
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Leon" wrote in message

Yes the test was severe. But one would think that TB3 would do better

than
TB2. That's it.


Disagree.



Wrong or not, if the results are correct, why does a water resistant glue

do
better than a water proof glue when soaked in water?


We don't know hte shole story.



The results would be the same. The TB2 was tested way farther than its
design limits than the TB3 was and it held up better.


We don't know that for sure.



What do you think the results would chang to? I could see how there would
be a problem if the TB2 failed miserably against other water proof glues

in
the PVA catagory because it is not sold as water proof. What reason

could
the TB2 have done better in this water test against TB3.
Neither glue was designed to be used to this extreme but the glue that
should have done better, did not.



What were the results after 4 hours? Ten hours? 30 hours?

After reaching a certain point beyond design limits, the results can easily
be changed or nulled. In your other post you use a comparison of two bolts.
Lets add another factor.

What if both bolts are exposted to a salt spray for ten years in you boat
trailer stored at the shore? Would the results be the same or would the
higher priced bolt made from a different alloy hold up better after a long
period of time while the first bolt would have let your suspenion fail 500
miles ago?

The 40¢ bolt may be plated or have alloys better suited for my use. If my
use requires they hold up the 300 pounds of torque it will not fail. If the
25¢ bolts rusts away, it certainly was no bargain if damage occurred or had
to be replaced at 25¢ plus labor.

All we know is that the test was done beyond the product design. Give me
results that matter under the condition that I'm going to use a product.
Ed


  #38   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Titebond III Does not Perform


"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...

Based on a test that should not have been done in the manner it was. If
you get past the marketing hype, I wonder if the results would be
different under more realistic conditions. If they were both given a

spray
of water similar to rainfall, followed by sunshine, then some morning dew,
etc.


Yes I think that the results would be different and both of the glues would
probably hold up under higher pressure. Still, both were tested eually and
it only seems logical that the glue designed to be used around "X" amount of
water would do better than a glue that was designed to be used in less than
"X" amount of water. This was not really a test of, does the glue pass the
test or not, both certainly did, but the under dog did better.


How many samples were tested?


IIRC, 1 for each glue type and test. And that may be the problem. Although
the tests were used with pieces of wood from the same board and the glue was
applied in an equal manner, the results could have been a fluke. Perhaps
best 5 of 8 tests or best average of 3 testings would have indicated
different results.

If could also be an anomaly if only one test piece was done.


True, and very likely. Or Wood Magazine matched the results to the wrong
glue. While I still believe that as long as the test was consistant for
both glues, TB3 was tested closer to its intended usage than TB2 was. A
larger sampleing, and I hope for Franklins sake, hopefully would yield
better results with TB3 than TB2 on this particular test.


If the results were the same in repeated testing I'd be
far more concerned.


Yeah, That is what I am thinkng. But given the results, Wood Magazine or
Franklin has some serious explaining to do.

They also state that the same board was used in the
testing. We all know that wood can vary quite a bit over a few feet of
length. Could be a factor if only one sample was done and each type was
from a different section of the wood. .


"IIRC" the maple board had consistant grain.

There is no doubt the poly glues performed much better under the

conditions
and I'd expect them to do so. I have to imagine that Franklin would have
done some testing to establish that TB3 is stronger than TB2 under normal
conditions or real use. FWIW, Franklin specs state that the TB2 meets the
Type II specs while the TB3 meets Type I specs.


I am not sure what Type I or II mean, but if Type II means that it will hold
up better under wet conditions than Type I, the test would indicate that TB2
probably easily passes the Tpye II specs also.

ANYWAY.. ;~) LOL.. I did send an email to Franklin asking their view on
the test results, in the magazine that they bought a full page add for the
back cover.





  #39   Report Post  
Leon
 
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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
m...


What were the results after 4 hours? Ten hours? 30 hours?


Since those tests were not performed, that would be hard to say. But in
this particular case, the under dog came out ahead. This is what will have
to be addressed by Wood or Franklin.
It seems to me that Wood Magazine would have wanted this to be as fare as
possable in that the back cover of the magazine was supported paid for by
Franklin. "Perhaps" this test was done under advisement of all the glue
companies being represented, or not. If I were working at Wood Magazine, I
think I would want the test of a clients product to be "fair" in that
clients eyes.
It seems to me also that Franklin would want to know the results of the
tests before having their large back page ad on that particular issue. The
article and the back page ad condradict each other greatly and the article
effectively nulifies the back page ad.
I imagine there are going to be "mad" red faces and "embarrased" red faces
on both sides that we may never know about.

After reaching a certain point beyond design limits, the results can

easily
be changed or nulled.


Absdolutely true but these results will equally factor in on the conclusion.

In your other post you use a comparison of two bolts.

Lets add another factor.

What if both bolts are exposted to a salt spray for ten years in you boat
trailer stored at the shore? Would the results be the same or would the
higher priced bolt made from a different alloy hold up better after a long
period of time while the first bolt would have let your suspenion fail 500
miles ago?

The 40¢ bolt may be plated or have alloys better suited for my use. If my
use requires they hold up the 300 pounds of torque it will not fail. If

the
25¢ bolts rusts away, it certainly was no bargain if damage occurred or

had
to be replaced at 25¢ plus labor.


I see what you are saying here, and to compare to the glue test, the bolt
that failed the test would be the one that also had the extra protection
against corrosion. Remember, the WATER PROOF glue was the one with the
added water protection to make it water proof and it performed worse that
the glue with out the added water protection.

The glue test results go against my way of thinking. I was greatly
suprised.


All we know is that the test was done beyond the product design. Give me
results that matter under the condition that I'm going to use a product.


Unfortunately, these are the only test results that I know of that include
the names other makers of glues.
Your boss tells you to buy a PVA glue that will be exposed to water and
sometimes submerged in water. You want documentation to back up your
decision in case the glue you choose does not perform adequately. TB2 and
TB3 are your only choices.
So, with this limited information which do you choose? The glue that says
that it is water proof, or the glue that did better in a water test. What
makes it really frustrating is that Franklin was both the winner and looser
in this test. The test indicates that Franklin glues are being labeled
incorrectly at the factory.

NOW...

Take a look at what Franklin says about the limitations of TB2 and TB3.

Titebond II Premium Wood Glue passes Type II water-resistance tests. Do not
use for joints below the waterline or continuous submersion. Do not use when
temperature, glue or materials are below 55°F. Freezing may not affect the
function of the product but may cause it to thicken. Agitation should
restore product to original form. Because of variances in the surfaces of
treated lumber, it is a good idea to test for adhesion. KEEP FROM FREEZING.
KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.

Titebond III Not for continuous submersion or for use below the waterline.
Not for structural or load bearing
applications. Use when temperature, glue and materials are above 45°F. Store
product below 75°F.
Storage above this temperature may cause product to thicken and reduce the
usable shelf life. If
thickened, shake vigorously by firmly tapping bottle on a hard surface until
product is restored to
original form. Because of variances in the surfaces of treated lumber, it is
a good idea to test for
adhesion. KEEP FROM FREEZING.
KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN.

TB II has less limitations than TB III except for low temperature use.
TBIII can be used above 45 degreesF and TB II can be used above 55 degreesF.

TB III says not to use for structural or load bearing applications. TB II
does not have that limitation.

While neither should be used below the waterline, a water line is normally
a constant and use in that condition would probably result in failure. Also
neither should be used in continuous submersion. I read that the joint can
be submerged but not for an on going period, continuous period of time. I
believe that the purpose of stating not to be used below a water line AND
stating not for continuous submersion is to indicate that there is a
difference in the two. If the glue should never be used under water, that
limitation should be the only one stated concerning applications that will
be subjected to water.

The test on both Titebond glues lasted approximately 73 hours. 72 hours
before being submerged and for curing and 1 hour being submerged. Of the 73
hour life of both joints, 72 out of water and 1 hour under water, the
submerged time was not constant. With the test limitations indicated by
Titebond, the test was valid.

I find it odd that Titebond 3 has the same and more limitations than
Titebond 2. This would seem to substantiate Wood Magazines test results.
Neither joint failed because neither was constantly kept below a water line
and neither joint failed because it was continuously submerged. The test
indicated that the TB 3 joint proved weaker than TB 2, backing up the
limitation that TB 3 should not be used for structural or load bearing
surfaces.

Titebonds stated limitations are quite interesting and contradictory when
comparing the TB2 and TB 3 capabilities.






  #40   Report Post  
Leon
 
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Default Correction of my incorrect time statement

The submerged time was 24 hours and considerably longer than the 1 hour that
I indicated.

IHMO however, a Water Proof glued joint being submerged for 1 day during a 4
day test is not beyond the manufacturers stated limitations of continuiously
being submerged or use below a water line like a glue aplication on a boat
bottom.

I guess we should ask Franklin what their definition of Water Proof is.


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