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#1
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raid on Gibson Guitar
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#2
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Aug 26, 12:18*pm, basilisk wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122... basilisk Hey Bas, Thanks for passing that along. This is the first time I ever read about any type of enforcement of protected woods. Does anyone have other articles about raids at other type of woodworking facilities (furniture makers for instance) where lumber was confiscated? Marc |
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raid on Gibson Guitar
basilisk wrote the following:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
#4
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raid on Gibson Guitar
I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ Hey Will, I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments but it exist in percussion types. Marc |
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raid on Gibson Guitar
marc rosen wrote the following:
I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ Hey Will, I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments but it exist in percussion types. Marc The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal frets in the fretboard do. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
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raid on Gibson Guitar
willshak writes:
marc rosen wrote the following: I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ Hey Will, I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments but it exist in percussion types. Marc The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal frets in the fretboard do. The sound is produced by the vibration of the strings enhanced and amplified by resonances in the body. The strings are coupled to the body at two locations - the bridge and the top of the fretboard. The density of the fretboard wood has a direct relationship to the sound of the instrument. |
#7
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raid on Gibson Guitar
Scott Lurndal wrote the following:
willshak writes: marc rosen wrote the following: I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ Hey Will, I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments but it exist in percussion types. Marc The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal frets in the fretboard do. The sound is produced by the vibration of the strings enhanced and amplified by resonances in the body. The strings are coupled to the body at two locations - the bridge and the top of the fretboard. The density of the fretboard wood has a direct relationship to the sound of the instrument. OK. thanks. I can appreciate that. I'm not a guitar player. I tried when young, but the callouses that I built up cracked and I bled all over the fretboard. It wasn't worth the pain. -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ |
#8
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/26/2011 3:39 PM, willshak wrote:
basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? my understanding is that a fretboard should be dimensionally stable and resist wear. The wood should be of fairly uniform density, so that the strings will have the same response on each fret. a non-uniform fretboard (and neck) would have "live" and "dead" acoustic spots affecting sound quality. Ebony, rosewood and maple have usually been the woods of choice for those reasons. Ebony is much more expensive. Mesquite might do very well functionally due to its exceptional hardness and dimensional stability. I imagine that the hardest part would be getting a large enough straight-grained piece. I found these, that I think are pretty cool: http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/gal..._mesquite.html http://guitarsbyjake.com/texas_native_guitars.htm http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/w...syourshop.html (last picture) http://www.guitarsbyjake.com/guitarsbyjake/shop.htm (bass has mesquite top and fretboard) |
#9
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raid on Gibson Guitar
This link provided by Just Windering:
http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/abo...stics-101.html says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a guitar; the back, sides, fretboard, &tc. do not. Interesting luthier. -Zz |
#10
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raid on Gibson Guitar
willshak wrote:
basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. |
#11
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raid on Gibson Guitar
willshak wrote:
marc rosen wrote the following: I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? -- Bill In Hamptonburgh, NY In the original Orange County. Est. 1683 To email, remove the double zeroes after @ Hey Will, I am not a musician but I experimented with making a cheap vibraphone a few years ago and the types of wood made a difference in sound. I don't know if that characteristic can be applied to string instruments but it exist in percussion types. Marc The fretboard doesn't produce sound, only the strings and the metal frets in the fretboard do. Violins don't have frets, but everything that is attached supposedly affects the way the instument vibrates, as well of course as things that aren't attached like a bow. |
#12
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raid on Gibson Guitar
Zz Yzx wrote:
This link provided by Just Windering: http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/abo...stics-101.html says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a guitar; the back, sides, fretboard,&tc. do not. Interesting luthier. -Zz That's a convenient point of view to have if you are trying to sell them. |
#13
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote:
basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it will sustain the sound. Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#14
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Fri, 26 Aug 2011 11:18:25 -0500, basilisk
wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html It's a good thing our gov't is punishing only the worst of the lawbreakers, isn't it? Muckin' Faroons. Ayup, I believe we can prune about 75% of the agencies off the roles of the gov't and still be able (BETTER able) to protect our shores and (BETTER) feed, house, and educate our citizens. Cut the FAT! -- Knowledge speaks, but wisdom listens. -- Jimi Hendrix |
#15
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/26/2011 7:21 PM, Zz Yzx wrote:
This link provided by Just Windering: http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/abo...stics-101.html says that ONLY the soundboard contributes to the sound or tone of a guitar; the back, sides, fretboard,&tc. do not. Interesting luthier. -Zz To be accurate, I provided this link: http://www.guitarmasterworks.com/gal..._mesquite.html I only wanted to show a gitar with a mesquite fretboard, which I thought was cool. It may be well that the type of wood used to make the soundboard has a greater effect on a guitar's tone than the type of wood used to make any other part of the guitar. However, I don't personally agree as a general statement that only the soundboard affects how a guitar sounds. If that was true, a $150 mass-produced guitar could be made to sound as good as a $10,000 custom one, just by manufacturing it with a properly designed soundboard. (We're talking about acoustic guitars; solid body electrics don't have soundboards.) A bridge padded with soft rubber would obviously muffle the sound, which shows that the engineering of the bridge affects a guitar's sound. The dimensions of the body affect the sound, as does the placement and rigidity of the internal bracing. The shape of the frets definitely affects the sound quality; a fret flattened by wear muddies the sound. I could go on, but these examples make the point. |
#16
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raid on Gibson Guitar
basilisk wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I saw another report claiming it was not the WOOD, per se, but the fact that the wood was not "finished" by union workers in India. The feds are not saying - yet - just what their beef is, whether it's the wood itself or something else. The problem could be lack of the proper paperwork in the importation process. We don't know yet. |
#17
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raid on Gibson Guitar
basilisk wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html It's even worse: "[WASHINGTON] Today's uncovering of secret multi-agency program for shipping illegal Gibson guitars to Mexican drug cartels left red-faced officials of the U.S. Department of Justice scrambling for an explanation amid angry calls for a Congressional investigation... "Responding to a Freedom of Information Act request, Justice Department officials admitted that the guitars were part of a complicated sting program know as "Operation Fast and Fretless," ostensibly designed to stem traffic of illegal guitars and amplifiers between the U.S. and Mexico. The multi-agency program - involving Justice, ICE, TSA, EPA, IRS, FDA, Fish & Wildlife, USDA, and the Bureau of Whiskey, Groupies & Hotel Rooms - reportedly encourage border area pawn shops to sell the guitars to known drug kingpins." http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk...rug-lords.html |
#18
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"Bill" wrote in message ... Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. There are whole guitars being made of wood that has been submerged in swamps for thousands of years. http://www.guitars.co.nz/ancient_story.html |
#19
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"HeyBub" wrote in message m... I saw another report claiming it was not the WOOD, per se, but the fact that the wood was not "finished" by union workers in India. Please document that whether or not wood workers in India belong to a union has anything to do with this matter. At least you didn't repeat the claim being made on the right-wing of the blogoshpere that the real reason Gibson was raided is because the company's CEO gave $3,500 to Republican candidates in the last election. The feds are not saying - yet - just what their beef is, whether it's the wood itself or something else. The problem could be lack of the proper paperwork in the importation process. We don't know yet. In this case that is apparently the basis of the action, that Indian law requires this wood to be finished there and not exported raw. Allegedly (as the popular saying goes) Gibson's paperwork was somewhat less than accurate, i.e. describing raw wood as finished pieces to get around the law. In a previous case the feds apparently tracked a shipment of allegedly illegally harvested wood from Madagascar through an intermediary to Gibson and that case is the subject of a lawsuit working its way through the courts. |
#20
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/30/2011 2:37 PM, DGDevin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message ... Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. There are whole guitars being made of wood that has been submerged in swamps for thousands of years. http://www.guitars.co.nz/ancient_story.html Isn't the method of delivery of wood in Cremona (via waterborne rafts of same) also suspected as one of the reasons for the tone of the early 18th century violin makers of the area, a la Stradivarius? -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#21
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote:
willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination, followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business. I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin, guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference. IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's D-28. BTDT. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#22
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raid on Gibson Guitar
Swingman wrote:
On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote: willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination, followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business. I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin, guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference. IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's D-28. BTDT. I would say that it doesn't make much difference to the listener except for the listener who is playing! I can definitely know the difference when I am playing a fine guitar with rosewood back and sides. I don't own one--but I can tell the difference when I play one...lol. I will up your estimate, and say that at least 98% of the musicality of a performance comes from the player and not from the instrument. A good player will appreciate a fine instrument even if his or her listeners can't tell the differene. In fact, he or she is likely to leave a good instrument at home and bring a cheap copy on stage. How many Lucille's (sp) do you suppose BB King has? |
#23
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"Swingman" wrote in message ... Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination, followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business. No doubt there is a lot of hype, and a lot of self-delusion when it comes to vintage instruments and vintage components of instruments and/or components made of rare materials. As you say, most famous players sound the same whether they're playing an instrument delivered in an armored car or one that came from the flea market. Which is not to say it is *all* smoke and mirrors, but whenever people convince themselves that something made of unobtainium is waaaay better sure as hell somebody will make a pile of money providing the unobtainium version. |
#24
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Aug 26, 9:28*pm, Bill wrote:
willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122.... basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? Are you joking? *Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. *There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). *No kidding. Banjo bridges are easy to replace, so that's the first place someone will try to upgrade the sound. Practicing might do them better. |
#25
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Aug 30, 8:01*pm, Swingman wrote:
On 8/26/2011 8:28 PM, Bill wrote: willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122.... basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? Are you joking? Luthiers want to know whether the wood came off of the east or the west side of the tree. There are some banjo bridges being made out of wood salvaged from shipwrecks in Lake Superior that go for quite alot (don't have the figure off hand). No kidding. Much of this is, IME, nothing more than figment of the imagination, followed up by clever marketing, much like with the "audiophile" business.. I've recorded albums with some of the best acoustic musicians, violin, guitar, mandolin and banjo players in the world and I guarantee you without qualification that 90% of any perceived "tone" in an instrument comes from the "hands" of the player and makes up the 10% difference. IOW, Tony Rice can make a Sears Silvertone sound like Clarence White's D-28. BTDT. * What an accomplished musician can do with a guitar made from a cigar box and a piece of 1 x 2 is revelation. |
#26
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Aug 27, 1:01*am, -MIKE- wrote:
On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122.... basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it will sustain the sound. Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason. Sharper attack, longer wear. |
#27
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"Father Haskell" wrote in message ... Banjo bridges are easy to replace, so that's the first place someone will try to upgrade the sound. Practicing might do them better. I once heard a young guitar student ask his teacher what should be the first electronic gadget he should buy to sound better. The teacher told him to use the money for a case of strings and wear them out practicing. |
#28
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raid on Gibson Guitar
Father Haskell wrote:
On Aug 27, 1:01 am, wrote: On 8/26/11 4:39 PM, willshak wrote: basilisk wrote the following: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...57653052047122... basilisk I gotta ask. What does the type of wood for the fretboard have anything to do with the sound? The harder the wood, the longer it will vibrate, meaning the longer it will sustain the sound. Rosewood is used for marimba bars for that reason. Sharper attack, longer wear. It is worth mentioning that the amount of attention given to cutting the wood (of a given species) counts for quite a lot too . IMO, That's the feature that most markedly affects the price of a new instument. Of course, a luthier's reputation for making excellent instruments may allow the seller to charge another grand or two. Go to Elderly Instruments for more details. |
#29
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 2011-09-01 01:47:02 -0400, Father Haskell said:
Banjo bridges are easy to replace, so that's the first place someone will try to upgrade the sound. Practicing might do them better. "There are no banjos in Heaven/There are some things even Jesus can't forgive" |
#30
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...sonWarrant.pdf The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm. IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32". Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality) IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs. IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS. How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces? Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be? What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem. That is what this is about!! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#31
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raid on Gibson Guitar
I guess we will all just buy Fender guitars, from now on, where they are
more honest and not smugglers. ---------------- "Swingman" wrote in message ... To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...sonWarrant.pdf The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm. IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32". Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality) IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs. IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS. How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces? Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be? What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem. That is what this is about!! |
#32
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 07:00:53 -0500, Swingman wrote:
On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...sonWarrant.pdf The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm. IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32". Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality) IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs. IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS. That absolutely sucks. How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces? Most. Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be? Especially when Gibson probably didn't WANT the thicker stock because it would have to be sanded/planed down, anyway. What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Uh, oh! Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem. That is what this is about!! Suckage. It's nasty actions like these, by American bureaucrats, which make the climate for offshoring a whole lot more tenable. Fukkemall. -- The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw |
#33
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 9/2/2011 8:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 8/26/2011 11:18 AM, basilisk wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...471223268.html To illustrate the ridiculousness and overreaching of this action by the administration against Gibson, you have to read the affidavit filed in support of the search warrant: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/package...sonWarrant.pdf The seized wood is described in the affidavit as in the form of "sawn logs" 510-530 x 75/70 x 10mm. IOW, each of the 1250 pieces seized is roughly 20" x 3" x 13/32". Read paragraph 14, page six of the affadavit and you will see that India allows export of this particular wood up to 6mm thick (due to the high complexity of involved in cutting these thin sheets to a uniform commercial quality) IOW, it must be cut to that thickness by Indian workers at Indian factories, insuring Indian jobs. IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS. How many of you, experienced woodworkers, could look at bundles of these pieces and tell that there is up to 4mm (5/32") difference in thickness in the pieces? Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be? I think the answer depends on their intent. If there was an intent to "defraud", then they should be held accountable. Morality has nothing to do with it (if you believe in law). What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem. That is what this is about!! |
#34
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"Swingman" wrote in message ... IOW, the raid on Gibson's facilities, with guns drawn, Can do document that the agents who conducted this search had guns in their hands? If not, why do you believe something you don't have reasonable grounds to accept as true? disrupting the production and jobs of workers at one of the few American companies still "manufacturing" products Q: Which is the number one manufacturing nation in the world? Is the answer: A) China B) Japan C) The United States of America D) Luxembourg is based on a difference of 5/32" of thickness, AND TO PROTECT INDIAN WOODWORKING JOBS. The way it works is if you want other nations to adhere to treaties on imports and exports and environmental protection and so on you have to demonstrate that you will enforce those laws and agreements too even if it impacts companies in your own nation. The notion that for some reason the Obama administration if obsessed with the idea of protecting jobs in India just as part of their general wickedness is so laughably childish that anyone promoting it ends up looking like a clown. I saw one right-wing blogger claim the Obama administration is actively hostile to any successful business and that's why Gibson was raided--talk about rampaging paranoia. Meanwhile a long list of other companies that make guitars in America and also rely on imported rosewood, ebony etc. haven't been raided. So is that because they adhere to the law and properly document their imports, or is it because (as some folks would have you believe) all those other companies are run by Democratic supporters? Which explanation is more credible (to someone with a reasonable mind)? Do you really think that Gibson should be held accountable, and be subject to a police action, computers seized, production disrupted, jobs lost, by buying rough stock, sight unseen, that is approximately 1/8" thicker than it's supposed to be? Do you think that any company should get a pass on allegedly falsifying import documents about the nature of the products they are bringing in? Keep in mind that the previous raid was about Gibson importing wood from Madagascar that at the time wasn't supposed to be exported from there at all--kind of looks like a pattern, doesn't it. Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Sure, the CEO of Gibson giving $3,500 to a couple of Republican candidates would obviously have triggered all of this [rolls eyes]. Now, if Gibson would only move their operations to India, their would be no problem. That is what this is about!! Absolutely, trying to force American companies to send jobs overseas is clearly what the govt. is trying to do, it's all part of their overall wicked un-Americanism, but that's what happens when you elect a black Muslim from Kenya, right? |
#35
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 9/2/2011 1:14 PM, DGDevin wrote:
it impacts companies in your own nation. The notion that for some reason the Obama administration if obsessed with the idea of protecting jobs in India just as part of their general wickedness is so laughably childish that anyone promoting it ends up looking like a clown. Be glad to discuss it with you, but WITHOUT the ad hominen bull****. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#36
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 2011-09-02 08:00:53 -0400, Swingman said:
What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Bull****. What it boils down to is some prick in Fish and Wildlife protecting HIS turf. Remember, Harry J. Anslinger, Jr. was the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He insured his success by "finding" a huge drug problem: criminalizing marijuana after four years on the job. |
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 9/2/2011 10:52 PM, Steve wrote:
On 2011-09-02 08:00:53 -0400, Swingman said: What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Bull****. What it boils down to is some prick in Fish and Wildlife protecting HIS turf. Remember, Harry J. Anslinger, Jr. was the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He insured his success by "finding" a huge drug problem: criminalizing marijuana after four years on the job. All you did was say "Bull****" and change the subject ... you're going to have to do better than that. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 4/15/2010 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#38
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raid on Gibson Guitar
"DGDevin" wrote in
m: Absolutely, trying to force American companies to send jobs overseas is clearly what the govt. is trying to do, it's all part of their overall wicked un-Americanism, but that's what happens when you elect a black Muslim from Kenya, right? You finally figured it out... Larry |
#39
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 9/2/2011 8:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. So what it really boils down to the Obama regime finding an excuse to use the government, any government, to try and destroy whomever disagrees with your socialist agenda. -- Jack Got Change: Supply and Demand ====== Command and Control! http://jbstein.com |
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raid on Gibson Guitar
On 2011-09-03 09:42:46 -0400, Swingman said:
On 9/2/2011 10:52 PM, Steve wrote: On 2011-09-02 08:00:53 -0400, Swingman said: What it boils down to is that US is enforcing India's laws to protect the woodworking jobs at the expense of American jobs. And apparently, the Indian woodworker aren't doing their jobs very well, at least when it comes to "uniform commercial quality". Granted, Gibson has a lot of things going against it in the current political climate ... it has actually publicly supported Republican politicians in a "right to work" state. Heaven forbid. Bull****. What it boils down to is some prick in Fish and Wildlife protecting HIS turf. Remember, Harry J. Anslinger, Jr. was the first commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He insured his success by "finding" a huge drug problem: criminalizing marijuana after four years on the job. All you did was say "Bull****" and change the subject ... you're going to have to do better than that. Occam's razor. You guys are all over the map with conspiracy theories (which seem to wind up blaming that "Kenyan"). My "conspiracy theory" is a lot simpler; only one layer: some prick who wants a flashy raid to make him look successful. Anslinger was the object lesson of how this works, not a change of subject. |
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