In article om,
Lew Hodgett wrote:

"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

BTW, what's all this happy horse**** about we need to develop
"energy
independence"?
---------------------------------
Would you prefer oil independance?

Alternate energy anybody?

The name of the game is to break the oil addiction.


Start with breaking the addiction to posting gas prices at your local Arco.



--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
...snipped...
Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the
light sweet and sell the rest.
...snipped...

If that's the case, why are the oil companies clamoring so much
to build the keystone pipeline to bring the even heavier and dirtier
oil from the Athabasca oil sands to US refineries?





--
Often wrong, never in doubt.

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 17:55:56 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:28:33 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 00:32:45 +0000 (UTC), Larry Blanchard
wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:07:37 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:

BTW, what's all this happy horse**** about we need to develop "energy
independence"?
---------------------------------
Would you prefer oil independance?

The point is that since we are a net exporter, we actually *have* oil
independence. All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.

Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the light
sweet and sell the rest. And the prices stay high because said oil
companies, who are rolling in double digit windfall profits, won't build
any more refineries of any type, bottlenecking the flow of gasoline.
That and the futures market and continual resale of oil on paper until
the profits are made by all participating companies.

No argument from me. Now what do we do about it? Or rather, what should
we do about it - actually getting it done may be impossible.

Yeah.


Since I doubt my ability to appeal to the consciences of the oil
executives, my answer is some kind of legal prohibition on the export of
strategic resources. I believe there is, or was, some such regulation on
some substances - just add oil and oil products to the list.

As much as I hate regulation, some is necessary when it can affect us
so deeply. Americans are making good profits on the oil they export.
Ditto all the trees (not processed lumber) they sell to Japan. To stop
that would hurt American companies. And how do we force the oil
companies to build proper refineries for our oil without hurting more
American companies? What amazes me is that small refineries aren't
popping up all over our not-so-light/sweet oil areas everywhere.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 22:56:40 +0000 (UTC),
(Larry W) wrote:

In article ,
Larry Jaques wrote:
...snipped...
Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the
light sweet and sell the rest.
...snipped...

If that's the case, why are the oil companies clamoring so much
to build the keystone pipeline to bring the even heavier and dirtier
oil from the Athabasca oil sands to US refineries?

Good question. Are they? If so, maybe the Canucks are selling it for
a whole lot cheaper than our American companies are.

The last I heard, it would cost too much to retool any of our (already
too, too few) refineries for that kind of sludgy oil.

Holy Crom! From the Wiki: The processing of bitumen into synthetic
crude requires energy, which is currently being generated by burning
natural gas. In 2007, the oil sands used around 1 billion cubic feet
of natural gas per day, around 40% of Alberta's total usage.

--
Win first, Fight later.

--martial principle of the Samurai

"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Alternate energy anybody?

Lew

On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.





Alternate energy anybody?

Lew

Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.

At least "in a free market", what the market will bear is determined by
supply and demand. 'Course, I expect you know that. Its the "free
market" part that can't be taken for granted..







Alternate energy anybody?

Lew

On 1/2/2012 5:53 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.

At least "in a free market", what the market will bear is determined by
supply and demand. 'Course, I expect you know that. Its the "free
market" part that can't be taken for granted..


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 5:53 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.

At least "in a free market", what the market will bear is determined by
supply and demand. 'Course, I expect you know that. Its the "free
market" part that can't be taken for granted..


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...ption-API.html

Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...december-13th/

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman wrote in
:

On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is
pumped out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is
bounded, especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what
the "fair" price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty
efficient about my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...il-demand-fell
-in-November-on-lower-gasoline-consumption-API.html

Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...mated-crude-oi
l-market-december-13th/

I have heard that gas at current prices is really not more expensive
after adjusting for inflation than it was in the '50s and '60s.

(ducking)

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

Han wrote in news:Xns9FCEDC4F41B59ikkezelf@
216.151.153.55:

I have heard that gas at current prices is really not more expensive
after adjusting for inflation than it was in the '50s and '60s.

Using the cpi inflation calculator, $0.50 in 1969 is the same as $3.08 in
2011.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc....969&year2=2011

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 1/2/2012 8:39 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in
:

On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is
pumped out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is
bounded, especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what
the "fair" price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty
efficient about my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...il-demand-fell
-in-November-on-lower-gasoline-consumption-API.html

Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...mated-crude-oi
l-market-december-13th/

I have heard that gas at current prices is really not more expensive
after adjusting for inflation than it was in the '50s and '60s.

(ducking)


http://www.contraryinvestor.com/imag...wtic052211.jpg


--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 1/2/2012 8:44 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:Xns9FCEDC4F41B59ikkezelf@
216.151.153.55:

I have heard that gas at current prices is really not more expensive
after adjusting for inflation than it was in the '50s and '60s.

Using the cpi inflation calculator, $0.50 in 1969 is the same as $3.08 in
2011.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc....969&year2=2011


The question is whether wages have kept pace with the inflated price of
oil ... see chart with wages in relation to oil prices.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

Swingman wrote in
news
On 1/2/2012 8:44 PM, Han wrote:
wrote in news:Xns9FCEDC4F41B59ikkezelf@
216.151.153.55:

I have heard that gas at current prices is really not more expensive
after adjusting for inflation than it was in the '50s and '60s.

Using the cpi inflation calculator, $0.50 in 1969 is the same as
$3.08 in 2011.
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc....969&year2=2011


The question is whether wages have kept pace with the inflated price
of oil ... see chart with wages in relation to oil prices.

Watch out!! The poor need to pay more taxes according to here prevailing
views (not mine). If that happens their purchasing power will further
decrease.

But that has nothing to do with inflation. That measures how much a
certain basket of goods costs.

Just like many wages/pensions are linked to a COLA. That doesn't mean
that your health insurance won't go up by more than the COLA.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On 1/2/2012 8:54 PM, Han wrote:

The question is whether wages have kept pace with the inflated price
of oil ... see chart with wages in relation to oil prices.

Watch out!! The poor need to pay more taxes according to here prevailing
views (not mine). If that happens their purchasing power will further
decrease.

But that has nothing to do with inflation. That measures how much a
certain basket of goods costs.

Just like many wages/pensions are linked to a COLA. That doesn't mean
that your health insurance won't go up by more than the COLA.

Last time I looked we were talking about the price of oil.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

"Larry Jaques" wrote:

Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the
light sweet and sell the rest. And the prices stay high because
said
oil companies, who are rolling in double digit windfall profits,
won't
build any more refineries of any type, bottlenecking the flow of
gasoline. That and the futures market and continual resale of oil
on
paper until the profits are made by all participating companies.
--------------------------------------
What a bunch of happy horse ****.

There will never be another "grass roots" refinery built in the USA
for a couple of reasons.

1) Not in my back yard. (NIMBY)
No one wants a refinery built in their back yard or near their town,
etc and fight the permitting process at every step in the process.

2) No oil company is willing to invest 20-30 years in getting a site
permitted so that construction to start.

Oil companies are willing to take risks, but 20-30 years "betting on
the come" just isn't going to happen.

BTW, the bulk of the oil pumped in SoCal is asphalt grade which may
help explain why there have been as many as six (6) companies
manufacturing asphalt roll roofing and asphalt shingles at the same
time here in SoCal.

The bulk of the oil held in reserve by the federal gov't is also
asphalt grade.

Lew

"Lew Hodgett" wrote:

Gas was $3.55/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon (02/26/11).
---------------------------------------------
Same bat time, same bat place except one week later (03/04/11).

Gas is $3.77/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday afternoon
(03/04/11).
---------------------------------------
Same bat time, same bat place except one week later (03/11/11).

Gas is ONLY $3.81/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.
------------------------------------
Same bat time, same bat place except two weeks later (03/24/11).

Gas is ONLY $3.87/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.
------------------------------------
Same bat time, same bat place except one week later (04/01/11).

Gas is ONLY $3.91/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
morning (04/01/11)
-----------------------------------
Gas is ONLY $3.93/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.(04/01/11).
-----------------------------------------
Gas is ONLY $3.99/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Monday
afternoon.(04/03/11).
----------------------------------------
Gas is ONLY $4.07/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Monday
afternoon.(04/11/11).

Wonder what Friday will bring?
-----------------------------------------
Gas is ONLY $4.09/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.(04/15/11).
-----------------------------------------
Gas is still ONLY $4.09/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.(04/22/11).
-----------------------------------------
We are still gaining on it.

Gas is still ONLY $4.09/gal at the local cash & carry Arco on Friday
afternoon.(04/29/11).

Looks like the rest of the country is catching up with California
this week.
-----------------------------------------
Spoke too soon,

Later today (04/29/11), gas is now ONLY $4.13/gal at the local
cash & carry Arco this Friday afternoon.(04/29/11).

-------------------------------------------------------
Surprise!!

Monday morning (05/09/11), the price of gas is now $4.09/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.

Thursday morning (05/12/11), the price of gas is now $4.05/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
---------------------------------------------
Another surprise.

Monday morning (05/16/11), the price of gas is now $3.99/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.

Looks like the crest is still holding, at least for the moment.

Alternate energy anybody?

Looks like Lowes is starting to sell solar panel systems,
at least here in California.
----------------------------------------------
Are they playing with us or what?

Friday afternoon (05/20/11), the price of gas is now $3.95/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco which is still above 04/01/11 price levels.
-------------------------------------
Monday morning (05/23/11), the price of gas is now $3.89/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.

Are they jerking our chains or what?
-------------------------------------
Tuesday morning (05/24/11), the price of gas is now $3.85/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (06/03/11), the price of gas is now $3.81/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (06/07/11), the price of gas is now $3.79/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (06/13/11), the price of gas is now $3.77/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (06/14/11), the price of gas is now $3.75/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (06/17/11), the price of gas is now $3.74/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (06/21/11), the price of gas is now $3.71/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Thursday afternoon (06/23/11), the price of gas is now $3.69/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (06/27/11), the price of gas is now $3.65/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Wednesday afternoon (06/29/11), the price of gas is now $3.63/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (07/04/11), the price of gas is now $3.59/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday morning (07/15/11), the price of gas is now $3.63/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.

Guess the sleigh ride is over.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday morning (08/09/11), the price of gas is now $3.59/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.

-------------------------------------
Thursday evening (08/11/11), the price of gas is now $3.55/gal at
the
local cash & carry Arco.

Haven't seen that price since 02/26/11.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (08/15/11), the price of gas is now $3.53/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (08/22/11), the price of gas is now back up to
$3.55/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (08/26/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.59/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Sunday afternoon (08/28/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.71/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Thursday afternoon (09/01/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.75/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Thursday evening (09/01/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.79/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday evening (09/02/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.85/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
WEdnesday evening (09/14/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.83/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday evening (09/16/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.79/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Thursday afternoon (09/22/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.75/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Sunday afternoon (09/25/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.73/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (09/26/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.71/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Wednesday afternoon (09/28/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.69/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (09/30/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.65/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (10/3/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.61/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (10/04/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.59/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (10/11/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.65/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Wednesday afternoon (10/12/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.69/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (10/14/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.73/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (10/18/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.77/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Saturday afternoon (10/22/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.73/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (10/25/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.69/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Tuesday afternoon (11/15/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.65/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (11/21/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.59/gal at the
local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Saturday afternoon (11/26/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.55/gal at the local cash & carry Arco, which is where this
all started on 02/26/11.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (11/29/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.49/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (12/02/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.45/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
The chain jerking continues.
-------------------------------------
Monday morning (12/05/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.43/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Friday afternoon (12/09/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.39/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Wednesday afternoon (12/14/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.35/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon (12/19/11), the price of gas is now down to
$3.29/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Merry Christmas, (12/25/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.35/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Wednesday afternoon, (12/28/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.39/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Thursday afternoon, (12/29/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.45/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
-------------------------------------
Saturday morning afternoon, (12/31/11), the price of gas is now up to
$3.49/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.
Happy New Year.
-------------------------------------
Monday afternoon, (01/02/12), the price of gas is now up to
$3.55/gal at the local cash & carry Arco.

The chain jerking continues.

Alternate energy anybody?

Nothing has been resolved involving Iraq which has the 2nd largest
proven oil reserve in the world.

Lew

Swingman wrote:
On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

I never said there was a shortage. I just said "the supply rate is
bounded". If you force the price to $2/gal. you may indeed end up with
a shortage (not being able to meet demand). My own gasoline consumption
is sensitive to the price. What makes you think demand doesn't affect
pricing?


http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...ption-API.html


Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...december-13th/

Swingman wrote:
On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...ption-API.html


Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...december-13th/



I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always
at work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like
to see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's
figure out what to do then...

On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 5:53 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.

At least "in a free market", what the market will bear is determined by
supply and demand. 'Course, I expect you know that. Its the "free
market" part that can't be taken for granted..


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand?

Absolutely! You can only put so much gas in your tank. We have seen
gasoline drop by almost $1. What has changed other than the market
refusing to pay nearly $4 per gallon? 5% drop in travel/consumption
equals a 25% drop in price. ;~) 30 cents per gallon price difference
in same brand gasoline from one block to the next? It's all about what
you are willing to pay.

Sure, at lower prices more gasoline is purchased but 95% of purchases
are going to be for the same thing, necessary travel. Recreational
travel will only go up slightly compared to the over all consumption.

Bill wrote:


I never said there was a shortage. I just said "the supply rate is
bounded". If you force the price to $2/gal. you may indeed end up
with a shortage (not being able to meet demand). My own gasoline
consumption is sensitive to the price. What makes you think demand
doesn't affect pricing?


That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if gas were
cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at leat approach, or
move in the direction of shortage. Then a second thought occurred. Would
it really? Maybe to a small degree for sure, but do people really have the
time, the money and the inclination to just up and start traveling more,
just because gas is cheaper? I'm not so sure that the cost of gas has
created a huge reduction in people's travel habits over time. Reducing the
price to something like $2 per gallon might not have as big of an impact as
first seems.

--

-Mike-

On 1/3/2012 4:29 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:
Snippage



What makes you think demand doesn't affect pricing?


30 cents price difference from one corner to the opposite corner of the
same intersection. Valero vs. Exxon. Cars in both filling up.

On 1/3/2012 4:40 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:
On 1/2/2012 7:39 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

http://www.hydrocarbonprocessing.com...ption-API.html



Totally manipulated:

http://www.tradingnrg.com/crude-oil-...december-13th/




I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always at
work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like to
see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's figure
out what to do then...


Totally agree! Stupidity of the purchasing public is why prices are
what they are.

On 1/2/2012 10:32 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote:

Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the
light sweet and sell the rest. And the prices stay high because
said
oil companies, who are rolling in double digit windfall profits,
won't
build any more refineries of any type, bottlenecking the flow of
gasoline. That and the futures market and continual resale of oil
on
paper until the profits are made by all participating companies.
--------------------------------------
What a bunch of happy horse ****.

There will never be another "grass roots" refinery built in the USA
for a couple of reasons.

1) Not in my back yard. (NIMBY)
No one wants a refinery built in their back yard or near their town,
etc and fight the permitting process at every step in the process.

Gotta agree with here Lew, I believe more refineries would be built if
it were not for the liberal greenies, thank you California mentality.

Swingman wrote in
:

On 1/2/2012 8:54 PM, Han wrote:

The question is whether wages have kept pace with the inflated price
of oil ... see chart with wages in relation to oil prices.

Watch out!! The poor need to pay more taxes according to here
prevailing views (not mine). If that happens their purchasing power
will further decrease.

But that has nothing to do with inflation. That measures how much a
certain basket of goods costs.

Just like many wages/pensions are linked to a COLA. That doesn't
mean that your health insurance won't go up by more than the COLA.

Last time I looked we were talking about the price of oil.

Yes, and I was saying that the price of gas hasn't really changed since
1969, if measured in "constant" dollars according to the CPI. Whether or
not a tank of gas costs more now as a % of your budget is a different
thing - it has to do with whether or not your income and other expenses
have kept up with the CPI. My real estatetaxes and healthcare costs have
increased vastly more than my gas expenses, as a % of my budget.


--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Mike Marlow" wrote in
:

That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if gas
were cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at leat
approach, or move in the direction of shortage. Then a second thought
occurred. Would it really? Maybe to a small degree for sure, but do
people really have the time, the money and the inclination to just up
and start traveling more, just because gas is cheaper? I'm not so
sure that the cost of gas has created a huge reduction in people's
travel habits over time. Reducing the price to something like $2 per
gallon might not have as big of an impact as first seems.

The cost of gas is 1 thing regarding travel costs. Another is tolls
(around NY City they just about increased 50% for just about all - it's now
$12/car to cross the GWBridge into Manhattan). Another is lodging, if
you're talking about recreational travel.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Mon, 02 Jan 2012 20:39:30 -0500, Bill wrote:

Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 5:53 PM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 4:36 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Blanchard" wrote:

All we have to do is keep the oil companies from shipping
our oil overseas.
-----------------------------------
Basic economics.

Reduce the demand, the supply increases and the price comes down.

Actually supply and demand is not the factor that regulates gasoline
prices, it is "what the market will bare". Pick any alternative energy
and you will have the same consumer pricing problem.

At least "in a free market", what the market will bear is determined by
supply and demand. 'Course, I expect you know that. Its the "free
market" part that can't be taken for granted..


But in this instance, there is no shortage so demand does not affect
pricing.

Depends what you mean by "shortage". Do you think if they fixed the
price at $2/gal tomorrow, that there would be enough around to meet
demand? By "supply", you might substitute "supply chain", taking into
account the source of the gasoline from the point that the oil is pumped
out of the ground. My point is just that the supply rate is bounded,
especially in the short run. That said, I don't know what the "fair"
price should be. I do admit that at $4+/gal, I'm pretty efficient about
my use of the stuff.

Ditto, regarding superfluous trips. I always buy the larger economy
size items, stock heavy, and make multiple stops in town so I don't
make the trip on whimsy. But during driving, I don't scrimp. I found
that the difference between a lead foot and a feather foot was roughly
1 MPG. I drive only 6k miles/yr so having a wee bit of fun getting to
and from town is well worth that one MPG. The truck with the smaller
V-8 is what I bought because it got 1 MPG better mileage than the
larger V-8, so it's a wash.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 1/3/2012 4:29 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

As Leon says, there is no shortage:

I never said there was a shortage. I just said "the supply rate is
bounded". If you force the price to $2/gal. you may indeed end up with a
shortage (not being able to meet demand). My own gasoline consumption is
sensitive to the price.

Except for the next time the prices go up for no other reason that a
holiday is approaching and you're on you way out the door on your annual
vacation ... As Lew says, your chain is being jerked.

Ain't it funny how "supply and demand" always gets blamed on that twice
annual, highly predictable, chain jerking, eh?

What makes you think demand doesn't affect pricing?

What makes you think that market manipulation can't affect the price
more than supply and demand?

Bought a diamond lately?

Only the naive think that the same thing is not a large factor in the
price of oil, and supposedly the price of gas at the pump.

With traded commodities in particular, like oil and gas, the
_perception_ of "supply and demand" play a large part in the overall
price due to speculation, and perceptions are played like a violin to
make a profit, and "supply and demand" take the all too convenient blame.

Your chain is, indeed, being jerked to a large extent ...

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 1/3/2012 4:40 AM, Bill wrote:

I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always at
work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like to
see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's figure
out what to do then...

Go read history and historical literature, starting with Plato. You need
to rid yourself of the notion of an altruistic human nature.

--
www.eWoodShop.com
Last update: 4/15/2010
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)
http://gplus.to/eWoodShop

On 1/3/2012 7:34 AM, Han wrote:
"Mike wrote in
:

That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if gas
were cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at leat
approach, or move in the direction of shortage. Then a second thought
occurred. Would it really? Maybe to a small degree for sure, but do
people really have the time, the money and the inclination to just up
and start traveling more, just because gas is cheaper? I'm not so
sure that the cost of gas has created a huge reduction in people's
travel habits over time. Reducing the price to something like $2 per
gallon might not have as big of an impact as first seems.

The cost of gas is 1 thing regarding travel costs. Another is tolls
(around NY City they just about increased 50% for just about all - it's now
$12/car to cross the GWBridge into Manhattan). Another is lodging, if
you're talking about recreational travel.


AND eating out.

"Mike Marlow" wrote:

That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if
gas were cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at
leat approach, or move in the direction of shortage. Then a second
thought occurred. Would it really? Maybe to a small degree for
sure, but do people really have the time, the money and the
inclination to just up and start traveling more, just because gas is
cheaper? I'm not so sure that the cost of gas has created a huge
reduction in people's travel habits over time. Reducing the price
to something like $2 per gallon might not have as big of an impact
as first seems.
-----------------------------------
The number of vehicles on the highway during rush hour is directly
proportional to the cost of fuel; however, the number of
people/vehicle is inversely proportional to the cost of fuel.

IOW, as the price of fuel increases, the more people use public
transportation.

Recreational driving is incidental to the equation in most cases,
especially in high population centers.

Lew

On 1/3/2012 6:09 AM, Mike Marlow wrote:
Bill wrote:


I never said there was a shortage. I just said "the supply rate is
bounded". If you force the price to $2/gal. you may indeed end up
with a shortage (not being able to meet demand). My own gasoline
consumption is sensitive to the price. What makes you think demand
doesn't affect pricing?


That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if gas were
cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at leat approach, or
move in the direction of shortage. Then a second thought occurred. Would
it really? Maybe to a small degree for sure, but do people really have the
time, the money and the inclination to just up and start traveling more,
just because gas is cheaper? I'm not so sure that the cost of gas has
created a huge reduction in people's travel habits over time. Reducing the
price to something like $2 per gallon might not have as big of an impact as
first seems.


If you buy a used car for $11,200 and it lasts for eight years, That's
$1,400 a year. Add in maintenance, repairs, property taxes,
registration, and insurance for another $1,000 a year. Driving 1,000
miles a month works out to 20 cents per mile. If you get 20 mpg and gas
costs $4/gal, that's 20 cents per mile for gas and 40 cents per mile
total to run your car. If gas drops to $3 per gallon, running your car
costs 35 cents per mile instead of 40 cents. I don't know about others,
but very little of my driving is discretionary. As a result, I don't
drive more just because my cost per mile drops by 10 or 15%.

On 1/3/2012 6:15 AM, Leon wrote:
On 1/2/2012 10:32 PM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Larry Jaques" wrote:

Do you know why they ship our light crude overseas? Because the oil
companies, in their infinite wisdom, no longer build refineries here
which can process our heavier, more sour types of oil. We use the
light sweet and sell the rest. And the prices stay high because
said
oil companies, who are rolling in double digit windfall profits,
won't
build any more refineries of any type, bottlenecking the flow of
gasoline. That and the futures market and continual resale of oil
on
paper until the profits are made by all participating companies.
--------------------------------------
What a bunch of happy horse ****.

There will never be another "grass roots" refinery built in the USA
for a couple of reasons.

1) Not in my back yard. (NIMBY)
No one wants a refinery built in their back yard or near their town,
etc and fight the permitting process at every step in the process.

Gotta agree with here Lew, I believe more refineries would be built if
it were not for the liberal greenies, thank you California mentality.

There's been talk about needing a massive new pipeline to pump Canadian
oil to Texas where the refineries are. I wonder, why not build a new
refinery in Montana instead?

....and people say you never wash??

-------------
"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Ditto, regarding superfluous trips. I always buy the larger economy
size items, stock heavy, and make multiple stops in town so I don't
make the trip on whimsy. But during driving, I don't scrimp. I found
that the difference between a lead foot and a feather foot was roughly
1 MPG. I drive only 6k miles/yr so having a wee bit of fun getting to
and from town is well worth that one MPG. The truck with the smaller
V-8 is what I bought because it got 1 MPG better mileage than the
larger V-8, so it's a wash.

--

In the BS of Usenet I can always find some corny
expression to back up a meaningless discussion.
U. Guestit

On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:06:23 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 1/3/2012 4:40 AM, Bill wrote:

I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always at
work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like to
see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's figure
out what to do then...

Go read history and historical literature, starting with Plato.

Thinking of Plato always reminds me of Socrates. Does anyone else
automatically pronounce it "sew crates" nowadays? I blame it on
having watched "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".

Plato's _Republic_ is on my "to be read" shelf.


You need
to rid yourself of the notion of an altruistic human nature.

Yeah, when most people (especially libs) say "let's feed the hungry
and house the homeless" they mean to do so using YOUR money.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus

On 1/3/2012 11:56 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if
gas were cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at
leat approach, or move in the direction of shortage. Then a second
thought occurred. Would it really? Maybe to a small degree for
sure, but do people really have the time, the money and the
inclination to just up and start traveling more, just because gas is
cheaper? I'm not so sure that the cost of gas has created a huge
reduction in people's travel habits over time. Reducing the price
to something like $2 per gallon might not have as big of an impact
as first seems.
-----------------------------------
The number of vehicles on the highway during rush hour is directly
proportional to the cost of fuel; however, the number of
people/vehicle is inversely proportional to the cost of fuel.

IOW, as the price of fuel increases, the more people use public
transportation.

Maybe in your world but not in Texas.

Leon wrote:
On 1/3/2012 11:56 AM, Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote:

That raises an interesting question. My first thought was that if
gas were cheaper, people would travel more and the result could at
leat approach, or move in the direction of shortage. Then a second
thought occurred. Would it really? Maybe to a small degree for
sure, but do people really have the time, the money and the
inclination to just up and start traveling more, just because gas is
cheaper? I'm not so sure that the cost of gas has created a huge
reduction in people's travel habits over time. Reducing the price
to something like $2 per gallon might not have as big of an impact
as first seems.
-----------------------------------
The number of vehicles on the highway during rush hour is directly
proportional to the cost of fuel; however, the number of
people/vehicle is inversely proportional to the cost of fuel.

IOW, as the price of fuel increases, the more people use public
transportation.

Maybe in your world but not in Texas.

Nor around here, where public transportation is mainly city busses. They
haven't seen much of an increase in occupancy simply because most people
have to commute in and at that point there is no use for the bus. As for
multiple occupancy - my very unscientific observation is that fuel prices
have not noticably affected vehicle occupancy.

--

-Mike-

Swingman wrote:
On 1/3/2012 4:40 AM, Bill wrote:

I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always at
work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like to
see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's figure
out what to do then...

Go read history and historical literature, starting with Plato.

I'll take a look at Plato. I enjoyed Socrates (dialogues) when I was
younger.


You need
to rid yourself of the notion of an altruistic human nature.

Hmmm.. that sort of goes against my basic nature!
We have mostly a lot of altruistic humans here at the Wreck, don't we?

Do we wish to enter the politicial arena with the basis that no one is
to be trusted? Enter gridlock (what we have now). I will await your
guidance regarding this matter! Actually, I think we are fighting on
the same side, but I still interested in reading more of your thoughts
and/or suggestions.

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:06:23 -0600, wrote:

On 1/3/2012 4:40 AM, Bill wrote:

I am pretty cynical too. But that doesn't mean economics isn't always at
work too. I'm as politically minded as I've ever been. I would like to
see our society be a happy, financially responsible place! Let's figure
out what to do then...

Go read history and historical literature, starting with Plato.

Thinking of Plato always reminds me of Socrates. Does anyone else
automatically pronounce it "sew crates" nowadays?

No one who has meditated on his words!


I blame it on
having watched "Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure".

Yes, that was a nice "feel good" movie.
This weekend I watched Michael Moore's movie:"Capitalism: A Love Story".
It was even more engrossing, if less grossing. It leaned a little
much to the left, but it was alright!


Plato's _Republic_ is on my "to be read" shelf.


You need
to rid yourself of the notion of an altruistic human nature.

Yeah, when most people (especially libs) say "let's feed the hungry
and house the homeless" they mean to do so using YOUR money.

--
In the depth of winter, I finally learned
that within me there lay an invincible summer.
-- Albert Camus