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What is Living Trade?
Larry Jaques wrote in message . ..
On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths: [pine] Sounds like you're blaming the wood for the idjits who don't know how to use it properly. :-) OK, add that it is too soft, splits easily, and has too many knots. The smell gets old after awhile, too. I can't say that I mind the smell, and you just have to pick your boards carefully to avoid knots. As for it being soft and splitting easily, that's true with most of what you can buy at your local Borg, but I have had the pleasure of working some stuff (guato pine) that is as hard as dense as many hardwoods. This stuff in particular had outstanding working properties (as well as a bit of figure): http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/stool2.jpg [snip] bring down trees on their land: http://www.swt.edu/~cv01/logs2.jpg Just say (tmPL) *meeep* *meeeep* Huh? a -firewood- gloat? Hmmm... I don't know what you use for firewood now that you're up in Oregon, but down here, a 4' section of mesquite log with a 24" diameter is considered worth saving. In fact, some folks might even try to make something out of it: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/mesquitable.jpg Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
Well, I have to ask. Where did you find that mesquite?
Also, I like the tile topped table. I may do something similar for an Acoma pot that I have. Tell us the story of the tile and the pot on your table. What is guato pine and where do you find it? I guess I'll have to call the guy's at Clarkes Hardwoods. "Conan The Librarian" wrote in message om... Larry Jaques wrote in message . .. On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian) snip Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
Well,
I Googled guato pine and it led me to your web site. I found the answers to my questions. :-) "Lowell Holmes" wrote in message ... Well, I have to ask. Where did you find that mesquite? Also, I like the tile topped table. I may do something similar for an Acoma pot that I have. Tell us the story of the tile and the pot on your table. What is guato pine and where do you find it? I guess I'll have to call the guy's at Clarkes Hardwoods. "Conan The Librarian" wrote in message om... Larry Jaques wrote in message . .. On 14 May 2004 05:27:43 -0700, (Conan The Librarian) snip Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
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What is Living Trade?
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What is Living Trade?
Has D.A. ever posted pictures of his woodwork?
OBTW, what does D.A. stand for? :-) "Patrick Olguin" wrote in message m... (Conan The Librarian) wrote: And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into the middle of a party uninvited and hollering, "hey, look at me ... I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you should all discuss what interests me". Yeah - normally you have to go to the trumpet player's forum for that kind of discourse. DAMHIKT. O'Deen |
What is Living Trade?
bridger wrote in message
as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite completely off topic... The topic is, What is Living Trade? it's a part of being social mammals. it's about communication, on a level somewhere a bit deeper than language. it keeps us from killing and eating our young, which is a good thing for social mammals. it's wired in deep, man, so deep that it's really difficult to analyze what it is and why it's there, especially using cognitive functions that are "higher" than emotional response... A good answer, for not knowing the question... the working of wood is one of our base technologies. like weaving, cooking food and making maps it is something that must be developed in order to build a complex civilization. why do we do that? beats me, but we sure do... Collectively, we do so as a civilization, but real progress is individual effort, wouldn't you agree? being a base technology, we will return to it time and again. it sits there in our subconscious and feeds our minds principles and metaphors that show up in diverse and seemingly unrelated endeavors. while we are not without alternatives to wood for materials with which to construct the acouterments of this complex civilization that we have built for ourselves, wood appeals to us on a number of levels. it's a material used by our ancestors, and humans are nothing if not suckers for sentimentality. it's also a pretty good material for lots of things. it has a sweet strength to weight ratio. it has failure modes that are fairly predictable. coming from a living thing it gives us a connection to nature. it's easily worked with fairly simple tools. Not a fully concise assimilation, but lots of emotion. A good statement in favor of seeking an answer to what is living trade. people like making things. we're just wired that way. it comes from walking upright and having hands with opposable thumbs. This is an answer that I am not satisfied with. To work wood is not just an inherent condition, there is no such thing as a naturally born woodworker. The ability to truly work wood comes through the acquisition of knowledge and understanding. Skills, the assimilation of tools and techniques are the by-product of time spent in apprenticeship, whether at trade or in your own shop. we do it for pay because there exists considerable demand for things made by people with specific skills. such is the nature of complex civilizations. we do it for recreation because whatever we do for pay provides insufficient stimulation to that part of our psyches that runs on the principles and metaphors of woodworking. in short, we can't help it. This is where your thesis breaks down. If you give it some thought, I believe you will see that you are straddling a pointy fence. Well, bridger, for not wanting to play, you made a fine contribution. daclark |
What is Living Trade?
Paul Kierstead wrote:
Master, will you enlighten us? Grasshopper? What do you see? Does man work wood? Or does wood work man? |
What is Living Trade?
D. A. Clark wrote:
: bridger wrote in message : : as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite : completely off topic... : The topic is, What is Living Trade? Here's the problem. YOU made the term "living trade" up. As a result coming in here and asking what it means is contrary to how things usually work (here, and elsewhere). When one invents a new term, it's to describe something that ALREADY exists, or already is a focus of discussion. You don't make a term up and then wander around trying to get people to help you define it. That's just ornery. -- Andy Barss |
What is Living Trade?
We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge
to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it" better than the last guy choosing only to use the highlights of what he's learned through passed on lessons, choosing to improve on that which he feels justified. The resulting new innovations though many, are simple derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods, efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and rudimentary physics..... such as it is with any trade that continues, such that it is that any trade plied today can trace it's ancestral roots to trades of yesterday, all of which were required to provide basic food and shelter. As long as the race shall live, so to will the trade.... Rob -- http://www.robswoodworking.com "D. A. Clark" wrote in message om... bridger wrote in message as I see it, you started a thread that was almost, but not quite completely off topic... The topic is, What is Living Trade? it's a part of being social mammals. it's about communication, on a level somewhere a bit deeper than language. it keeps us from killing and eating our young, which is a good thing for social mammals. it's wired in deep, man, so deep that it's really difficult to analyze what it is and why it's there, especially using cognitive functions that are "higher" than emotional response... A good answer, for not knowing the question... the working of wood is one of our base technologies. like weaving, cooking food and making maps it is something that must be developed in order to build a complex civilization. why do we do that? beats me, but we sure do... Collectively, we do so as a civilization, but real progress is individual effort, wouldn't you agree? being a base technology, we will return to it time and again. it sits there in our subconscious and feeds our minds principles and metaphors that show up in diverse and seemingly unrelated endeavors. while we are not without alternatives to wood for materials with which to construct the acouterments of this complex civilization that we have built for ourselves, wood appeals to us on a number of levels. it's a material used by our ancestors, and humans are nothing if not suckers for sentimentality. it's also a pretty good material for lots of things. it has a sweet strength to weight ratio. it has failure modes that are fairly predictable. coming from a living thing it gives us a connection to nature. it's easily worked with fairly simple tools. Not a fully concise assimilation, but lots of emotion. A good statement in favor of seeking an answer to what is living trade. people like making things. we're just wired that way. it comes from walking upright and having hands with opposable thumbs. This is an answer that I am not satisfied with. To work wood is not just an inherent condition, there is no such thing as a naturally born woodworker. The ability to truly work wood comes through the acquisition of knowledge and understanding. Skills, the assimilation of tools and techniques are the by-product of time spent in apprenticeship, whether at trade or in your own shop. we do it for pay because there exists considerable demand for things made by people with specific skills. such is the nature of complex civilizations. we do it for recreation because whatever we do for pay provides insufficient stimulation to that part of our psyches that runs on the principles and metaphors of woodworking. in short, we can't help it. This is where your thesis breaks down. If you give it some thought, I believe you will see that you are straddling a pointy fence. Well, bridger, for not wanting to play, you made a fine contribution. daclark |
What is Living Trade?
(Conan The Librarian) wrote in message
This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers... As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read your own FAQ, then give it a good flush. Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating. In short, we're a bit like any gathering of guys at a bar or party. And your entrance into the group is similar to someone barging into the middle of a party uninvited... Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my party. It's BYOB, Charlie...(Bring Your Own Brain)...and you didn't have the good manners to do so. But, you are welcome to stay, Chuckie...maybe somebody else will say something intelligent for you. |
What is Living Trade?
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What is Living Trade?
On Mon, 17 May 2004 19:56:08 -0700, Larry Jaques
posted: Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real wooddorking stuff? With me, it's becuase I'm anally retentive wrt efficiency. If there is a big juicy job to do, I can't start that until I do this small job that makes another small job down the line more efficiently handled, and before I do that, I have to move something else coz that will make another small (to-be-done-before-the-main-job) job "more efficient" The bottom line is that I'm still doing precursor jobbies six weeks later. Story of my life. |
What is Living Trade?
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What is Living Trade?
Larry Jaques wrote:
On 17 May 2004 05:25:26 -0700, (Conan The Librarian) brought forth from the murky depths: [pine] I'm finding a lot more green doug fir up here. It's nice to work when wet (soft) and hardens up to oaklike density without twisting. All we had in LoCal were birdseye SPF (mostly waaavy pine) with some nice spruce studs at triple the price. Feh! I can understand you not being too gung-ho about that sort of thing. I know if the only wood I ever saw was the Borg "pine" stuff, I'd probably give up woodworking. Anyway, some day soon I'll make that sheet-goods cart out of the 2x8 DF. It's raining to day so I'll be spreading the last of the Weed'n'Feed tomorrow, opening another 1-sq/ft of space in the shop. It's garage sale time. Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real wooddorking stuff? I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-) outstanding working properties (as well as a bit of figure): http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/stool2.jpg Whatever floats yer boat. Got another pic of that with different lighting? It looks stained in that pic, and you know how I get... No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have gotten.) I don't know what you use for firewood now that you're up in Oregon, but down here, a 4' section of mesquite log with a 24" Mesquite? I totally missed that in the original post, and the photo is uncommented, so Excuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuse me. I honor your gloat now, suckah. Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal. diameter is considered worth saving. In fact, some folks might even try to make something out of it: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/mesquitable.jpg Yeah, she were purty. Thanks. Beeyoootiful grain in that section of log. Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
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What is Living Trade?
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:
We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it" better... Hello Rob, In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of understanding. And while common sense and manual dexterity can enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement. Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit. The resulting new innovations though many, are simple derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods, efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and rudimentary physics... I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence and have failed to provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand. Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work. As man returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find an answer to what is living trade? |
What is Living Trade?
Connie The Librarian wrote in message:
I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word "recreate" has more than one meaning. So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie? |
What is Living Trade?
D. A. Clark wrote:
So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie? That's your idea of a comeback? Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) I've thoughtfully included my previous post below, so you can give it another try. This time try to keep the poopie words to a minimum. They don't reflect well on you, old chap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com... (Conan The Librarian) wrote in message This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers... As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read your own FAQ, then give it a good flush. Let's see, first it was lingerie, then it was homosexual interior decorators and now it's a public commode. For such a hoity-toity intellectual, your mind sure seems to lean towards baser pursuits. Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating. I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word "recreate" has more than one meaning. You definitely are trying to recreate this same tired thread. The phrase "one-trick-pony" comes to mind. Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my party. In other words, just as I wrote before, D. sez: "hey, look at me ... I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you should all discuss what interests me". But, you are welcome to stay I'll be here long after you have ridden your high horse off into the sunset. What you don't seem to realize(no doubt because of your holier-than-thou, Mensa-fueled, delusions of grandeur), is that this group is a virtual community. And you don't become part of that community by swooping in, brandishing your pseudo-intellectual sword and cape, Zorro-like, and then daring the peasants to knock the chip off of your shoulder. But then again, you don't really want to be part of the community, do you? That would be so beneath you. OK, so you made your cameo, everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel free to go away for another couple of years. We'll let you know when we need your services again. HTH. HAND. |
What is Living Trade?
(D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com...
wrote in message so if I understand the issues correctly, you really are a troll. He who posts off-topic is the troll, that would be most of you. It is nice that Larry has bought himself some wood for a personal project, but that is not the topic. On the other hand, in visiting his website, I find a short dissertation of his personal feelings while working wood, and that would be part of the philosophy and psychology of living trade. Working wood evokes emotion, from the murky depths as Larry would say, of a man's being. Yet, that is not the whole story either, but rather, just tip to the iceberg. There are global implications to what most of you treat as mere hobby, spending countless hours and dollars for very little result. Answer this, if you have any understanding...what could be the underlying purpose of man's emotional response? Why do men work wood, whether they are paid to do so or not? daclark Ahh so you are the professor who will assign value and quantify what constitutes 'results' kinda arrogant |
What is Living Trade?
On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:23:32 -0500, Conan the Librarian
brought forth from the murky depths: I can understand you not being too gung-ho about that sort of thing. I know if the only wood I ever saw was the Borg "pine" stuff, I'd probably give up woodworking. g Anyway, some day soon I'll make that sheet-goods cart out of the 2x8 DF. It's raining to day so I'll be spreading the last of the Weed'n'Feed tomorrow, opening another 1-sq/ft of space in the shop. It's garage sale time. Why do so many little projects always seem to get in the way of real wooddorking stuff? I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-) Yeah, you finish a project or two a year, don't you? No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif Yes, better. The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have gotten.) Yeah, the larger pineywood forests they had 70+ years ago prolly were nicer than the borg-a-matic pretzels they turn out now. Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal. No, those who used fireplaces ordered oak (sigh), avocado (sigh), or yewcallapeetusez. I saw manzanita growing (small) out in the wilds of the deserts we knew as the "California foothills". Y'know, 4-6 INCHES in diameter and 8' tall. Veritable dinosaur teeth. The only mesquite I saw was in bags: soak 'n smoke BBQ chips. =:0 -- Remember: Every silver lining has a cloud. ---- http://diversify.com Comprehensive Website Development |
What is Living Trade?
Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing
contest?? LOL! You go! dave Conan the Librarian wrote: D. A. Clark wrote: So, what is the Dewey decimal point for ****ant, Chuckie? That's your idea of a comeback? Chuck Vance Just say (tmPL) I've thoughtfully included my previous post below, so you can give it another try. This time try to keep the poopie words to a minimum. They don't reflect well on you, old chap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- (D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com... (Conan The Librarian) wrote in message This is a newsgroup frequented by mostly recreational woodworkers... As self-appointed moderator for this public facility, you should read your own FAQ, then give it a good flush. Let's see, first it was lingerie, then it was homosexual interior decorators and now it's a public commode. For such a hoity-toity intellectual, your mind sure seems to lean towards baser pursuits. Just for your information, Charlie, I am recreating. I'll give you partial credit on that one, D., since the word "recreate" has more than one meaning. You definitely are trying to recreate this same tired thread. The phrase "one-trick-pony" comes to mind. Since I originated the thread, as I was free to do, it must be my party. In other words, just as I wrote before, D. sez: "hey, look at me ... I'm smarter than you, and I don't care what you're talking about, you should all discuss what interests me". But, you are welcome to stay I'll be here long after you have ridden your high horse off into the sunset. What you don't seem to realize(no doubt because of your holier-than-thou, Mensa-fueled, delusions of grandeur), is that this group is a virtual community. And you don't become part of that community by swooping in, brandishing your pseudo-intellectual sword and cape, Zorro-like, and then daring the peasants to knock the chip off of your shoulder. But then again, you don't really want to be part of the community, do you? That would be so beneath you. OK, so you made your cameo, everyone knows you're reaaalllly smart (and dashing), now please feel free to go away for another couple of years. We'll let you know when we need your services again. HTH. HAND. |
What is Living Trade?
-- http://www.robswoodworking.com "D. A. Clark" wrote in message om... "Rob Stokes" wrote in message: We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it" better... Hello Rob, Hello DA. Can't stay long on this, but I'll stick for a bit.... In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of understanding. Don't discount the strength of a natural challenge; it's been the father of the majority of the world we know today and continues to be thr driving force behind the very payckecks many people spend in an attempt to re-find their roots. Come to the edge of a cliff and don't look over. Perhaps you will prevail through will, but your mind will paint the picture for you. And while common sense and manual dexterity can enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement. The Craftsman's natural ability for improvement is spawned from many core ideals however the prime mover for improvment, as it is in so many cases, is the efficiencies needed to compete with those who are on a like quest. These efficiencies are found in both time and materials resulting in lower cost, larger profit or perhaps both. Interestingly enuogh the very skills neeeded to realize these gains have themselves taken a life or pride where product produced by those who excel above the basic need for feed is measured in the fineness of the skills required to make the product efficient in the first place. Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit. On this we are in total agreement. The quest for happiness begins at the acceptance of wisdom. The resulting new innovations though many, are simple derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods, efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and rudimentary physics... I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence Again agreed, but is this not the very meaning of circuitous technology? and have failed to provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand. Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work. And man is the greatest threat to the very technology that sets him apart in the way. Ironic isn't it? As man returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find an answer to what is living trade? In this there is peace. It is this rudimentary and basic need that drives many of us to spend countless hours and dollars in pursuit of the basic skills civilization, though its advancement, has allowed us to forget. g'night DA. As it was before, agreement is simple to find. I raise my glass, and toddle off to bed. Rob |
What is Living Trade?
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message ...
Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing contest?? LOL! You go! Not really in your league is he? By the way, we're still waiting for you to explain your lying and slandering. Greg |
What is Living Trade?
Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com...
Chuck, have you found yourself in yet ANOTHER ****ing contest?? I've been in exactly two "****ing contests" in recent memory. One with you and one with D.A. Think about it. Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
Larry Jaques wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 18 May 2004 08:23:32 -0500, Conan the Librarian brought forth from the murky depths: I dunno, Lar. I don't seem to have that problem. :-) Yeah, you finish a project or two a year, don't you? Sometimes even more. Or at least I did until I got back into flyfishing. I've been working on a hutch for SWMBO for months now. In the meantime I've been doing smaller projects for special occasions, but this darned hutch is my albatros now. No stain there, just shellac. What looks like blotching is actually some curl. Here's a photo of a different project that shows some of the neat grain the stuff has: http://uweb.txstate.edu/~cv01/repisa.gif Yes, better. It's unlike any pine I've worked with before or since. I just wish I had an idea of what it's real name is so I could try to track some more down. The panel in that picture was about as heavy as a maple panel of similar size, and the wood *scraped* beautifully. Not your granddad's pine for sure. (Well, actually it might be more like what he could have gotten.) Yeah, the larger pineywood forests they had 70+ years ago prolly were nicer than the borg-a-matic pretzels they turn out now. What we have now is tree factories. No comparison whatsoever. Tendjew. You were starting to worry me. I was wondering if you normally burned the stuff when you lived in lowCal. No, those who used fireplaces ordered oak (sigh), avocado (sigh), or yewcallapeetusez. I saw manzanita growing (small) out in the wilds of the deserts we knew as the "California foothills". Y'know, 4-6 INCHES in diameter and 8' tall. Veritable dinosaur teeth. The only mesquite I saw was in bags: soak 'n smoke BBQ chips. =:0 Every once in a while I'll see some mesquite in firewood bundles they sell in front of convenience stores around here. Ironically, mesquite was usually considered a trash wood until us yuppie wooddorkers got a hold of it and drove the price up. Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message:
Don't discount the strength of a natural challenge; it's been the father of the majority of the world we know today and continues to be thr driving force behind the very payckecks many people spend in an attempt to re-find their roots. The strength of natural challenge is, of course, a viable force; most evident in the proliferation of sports; what caused me climb to the top of a redwood tree. For root cause, however, I perceive the force of living trade, to work wood or metal or soil, to be an immanent force of man's nature; an applied subconscious mental event with no connection to historical fact. The Craftsman's natural ability for improvement is spawned from many core ideals however the prime mover for improvment, as it is in so many cases, is the efficiencies needed to compete with those who are on a like quest. These efficiencies are found in both time and materials resulting in lower cost, larger profit or perhaps both. Profit as a motivational force does more to negate the propagation of living trade than to reinforce man's knowledge and understanding of the basic material. Industrialization induces a narrow view of the trade subject; while, the introduction of modern machines, which require modern materials, separates man from the perception of his own potential. to realize these gains have themselves taken a life or pride where product produced by those who excel above the basic need for feed is measured in the fineness of the skills required to make the product efficient in the first place. I am not sure what you mean here, but let's emphasize skill. Demonstrable skill is individual expertise with tool and technique, where a man's common sense and manual dexterity will prevail; whereas, production efficiency is a mental exercise, knowing what you want to build and planning each step well in advance of your feet; this, too, is cumulative skill, most evident in the finished product, but undoubtedly the least appreciated. The quest for happiness begins at the acceptance of wisdom. Well, you're talking to the guy who has been accused of being a legend in his own mind on this very thread; I suppose my accepted wisdom is not to be overly wise in approaching living trade. No man is the master; working wood is an infinite phenomenon, the more you know the more you realize you know very little. But, I perceive the pursuit of living trade to be a life's journey. but is this not the very meaning of circuitous technology? And man is the greatest threat to the very technology that sets him apart in the way. Ironic isn't it? Ironic, indeed, if you define circuitous as a neanderphobe with more planes then brains. The problem with today's technology is that innovation is the provenance of machine and tool manufacturers, computer science, and the industrial complex...none, of whom, work wood. Two decades ago, I located shelf standard products that would have provided retrofit to the standard tablesaw for numerical control of fence and the height/angle adjustments of the blade...for less than a thousand dollars. Yet, today, no standard tablesaw, at any price, is fitted for these basic functions. Still, the most intricate detail in wood can only be accomplished with a single edge of steel... In this there is peace. A man in pursuit of living trade is at peace. You might peruse the Four Ages in the Metamorphoses of Ovid for the effects of technology on man's peace from the man who lived his trade two-thousand years ago. In defining living trade, and bringing to light the underlying resource that is the driving force of living trade, perhaps, we may witness a renaissance in man's inherent capability to work wood... As always, Rob, you have provided opportunity...thank you. |
What is Living Trade?
I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I
gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're right." I agree with the person who said the rest of us are uninterested. Sort of like when the wife asks you waht time it is and you tell her it's, say, 4:15. And your eight-year-old says, "No, daddy. It's actually 4:13 and 18 seconds. It's not 4:15. You're lying!" (True story!) How can you argue?! The kid was 'technically' right. Extremely nitpicky and sort of anal but, technically right. I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a cross. If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and woodworking and everything else), it was Him. (I am ready to take the hits now.) (D. A. Clark) wrote in message . com... "Rob Stokes" wrote in message: We do it tomorrow because we did it today, and there's the natural challenge to make our next product better than our last. The trade lives because as intelligent as the human race is, a true craftsman can always make "it" better... Hello Rob, In seeking an answer to living trade, I cannot accept the 'just because' or the 'natural challenge' thesis as the whole of understanding. And while common sense and manual dexterity can enhance individual accomplishment in pursuit of trade, I do not adhere to a belief in the natural craftsman's ability for improvement. Knowledge is not collective per individual, like books on a shelf; but rather cumulative in the subconsious of experience...and this is derived through time in apprenticeship, which is a lifelong pursuit. The resulting new innovations though many, are simple derivatives of circuitous technology. Tools, means, methods, efficiencies...all are simple but plodding enhancements yet the core of the technology still lies with rudimentary tools, rudimentary materials and rudimentary physics... I agree, the core of technology is based in the physics of the material; yet, the innovations of modern technology are not circuitous...they are destined for obsolescence and have failed to provide such enhancement of product, that may be derived only from the assimulation of a human eye and the articulation of a man's hand. Therefore, man is the greatest technological force at work. As man returns to the basic material, so too must he return to the first principles of working the wood...to cut, to shape, to fasten...to find an answer to what is living trade? |
What is Living Trade?
Zuchick, is that you?
dave Ray Kinzler wrote: I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a cross. If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and woodworking and everything else), it was Him. (I am ready to take the hits now.) |
What is Living Trade?
Ray Kinzler wrote:
I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're right." Of course D.A. will always be right. He created the term "living trade", and is free to define it as he sees fit. Anyone entering into the discussion to disagree has lost before he even started. It's a heck of a way to carry on a "debate". Any other participants must either agree with him and acknowledge his greatness or they are a priori wrong. And to top it off, he berates those who dare to point out his arrogance and pretentiousness. Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
nope.
Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com... Zuchick, is that you? dave Ray Kinzler wrote: I don't want to start yet another flame war that goes off on another tangent but I, myself, have to disagree with the original poster because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago who was later hung on a cross. If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and woodworking and everything else), it was Him. (I am ready to take the hits now.) |
What is Living Trade?
|
What is Living Trade?
LOL!!!
Oh man, there goes the monitor...! Rob -- http://www.robswoodworking.com "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Zuchick, is that you? dave snipped |
What is Living Trade?
Chuck:
I think it's more a conversation than a debate and the root of the conversation is a interpretation of history and an attempt at using it to forecast the future as it pertains to skills being lost. I don't believe I've agreed or disagreed with DA (individual points aside) and I don't feel this is a win/lose conversation, nor do I perceive his quest to strike a conversation as arrogance. Then again, I enjoy a good single malt and have been known to ramble about the sublime on occasion so maybe it's all perception g! Rob -- http://www.robswoodworking.com "Conan the Librarian" wrote in message ... Ray Kinzler wrote: I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of silly argument, the original poster will always be right. I guess what he wants is everybody to say is, "Geez. You knw what? You're right." Of course D.A. will always be right. He created the term "living trade", and is free to define it as he sees fit. Anyone entering into the discussion to disagree has lost before he even started. It's a heck of a way to carry on a "debate". Any other participants must either agree with him and acknowledge his greatness or they are a priori wrong. And to top it off, he berates those who dare to point out his arrogance and pretentiousness. Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
"Rob Stokes" wrote in message news:exVqc.630$gx1.531@clgrps12... Chuck: I think it's more a conversation than a debate and the root of the conversation is a interpretation of history and an attempt at using it to forecast the future as it pertains to skills being lost. I don't believe I've agreed or disagreed with DA (individual points aside) and I don't feel this is a win/lose conversation, nor do I perceive his quest to strike a conversation as arrogance. Then again, I enjoy a good single malt and have been known to ramble about the sublime on occasion so maybe it's all perception g! Rob, I respect your opinion and don't begrudge you choosing to participate in the discussion. My sole issue in all of this is our friend. He makes a grand entrance to the wreck once every few years and seems to expect that everyone should stop what they're talking about and concentrate solely on his personal great white whale. While sitting on his imagined lofty perch, he displays an attitude of condescension and disregard towards the very people with whom he ostensibly hopes to carry on a discussion. I love a good philosophical discussion, but I choose to participate on my own terms. Unfortunately, due to the way he frames the debate, it can only be done on *his* terms. The only thing he has contributed to the wreck is this single mantra. He doesn't bother to participate as an equal; instead he chooses to virtually snipe the group. He takes a few potshots, checks for casualties and then moves on until the next time he gets bored with his Mensa meetings. In that regard, he is no better than a troll. And I don't care for trolls, no matter how well-versed they are with Roget's. Anyhow, have fun with it. I know I'll continue to do the same. :-) Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
it appears you are STILL ****ing... so while YOU count the
****ing contests at TWO, you are getting maximum mileage out of them. tsk, tsk. (Now it's time for you to have the last word, Chucky, as I know you are unable to resist a challenge, simple as it may be) dave Conan the Librarian wrote: Rob, I respect your opinion and don't begrudge you choosing to participate in the discussion. My sole issue in all of this is our friend. He makes a grand entrance to the wreck once every few years and seems to expect that everyone should stop what they're talking about and concentrate solely on his personal great white whale. While sitting on his imagined lofty perch, he displays an attitude of condescension and disregard towards the very people with whom he ostensibly hopes to carry on a discussion. I love a good philosophical discussion, but I choose to participate on my own terms. Unfortunately, due to the way he frames the debate, it can only be done on *his* terms. The only thing he has contributed to the wreck is this single mantra. He doesn't bother to participate as an equal; instead he chooses to virtually snipe the group. He takes a few potshots, checks for casualties and then moves on until the next time he gets bored with his Mensa meetings. In that regard, he is no better than a troll. And I don't care for trolls, no matter how well-versed they are with Roget's. Anyhow, have fun with it. I know I'll continue to do the same. :-) Chuck Vance |
What is Living Trade?
(Ray Kinzler) wrote in message
I think this thread has gone on long enough. Geesh. From what I gather is being said is that no one man has EVER known ALL there is to know about woodworking ever--especially since, I guess, none of us know what the future holds. So with this sort if nit-picking, sort of silly argument... I guess, if you are willing to live life with your head stuck in the sand, I can only assume that that butt sticking up is your real face. Man is not the only woodworker; a beaver builds a dam, and a bird builds a nest, but what does the woodchuck chuck? Chuck??? Certainly, the dumb animals of the world utilize the basic material for their very survival, but would you ascribe man to an equal state of ignorant grace? The monkey has an opposable thumb; it is in seeking the resources of knowledge and understanding that sets man apart. There is a spot reserved for you in the corner of the inane. See Conan, he has your pointy hat... because I do believe there was a man who lived on this earth who DID know everything that was and ever will be known about woodworking and he was a carpenter who lived 2,000 years ago If enybody knew everything there is to know about wood (and woodworking and everything else), it was Him. By invoking God in defence of your irrelevancies, you have accidently struck upon a central theme in the assertation of what is living trade. Those of us who believe in God would not deny His hand in all that we think, say or do. On your part, the assumption that Jesus, as the carpenter's son, qualified himself as a woodworker is a fallacy. Otherwise, when inquired of by the merchant...Ben Hur, 1956...Jesus would have been there to finish the guy's table, but instead, was in the hills contemplating his Father's business. Hence, I maintain, that no two men may have the same knowledge or understanding of working wood. It is an infinite phenomenon, and thus, a living trade. |
What is Living Trade?
"If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going."
Professor Irwin Corey Regards, Tom. Thomas J.Watson - Cabinetmaker (ret.) tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 |
What is Living Trade?
Sandy wrote in message:
The term "living trade" is just a parallel with "living language" Any language which is spoken by living humans evolves and changes. The opposite is a "dead language" such as Latin which is static and does not evolve or change. Similarly for "living trade". I'll let others think of "dead trades". In the context of terminologies, you might well assume a parallel by definition of that which evolves and changes...but, what is your point? Stupidly, I have been accused of inventing the term living trade in arcanum...oops, there's a dead language; when, in fact, the phrase is merely common language usage, to describe a parameter for discussion. Are you entering into this discussion, or are you one of Conan's pointy-headed friends? Perhaps, you will elaborate on what others think of dead trades... |
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