It's ironic that I just got my long-awaited saw and I feel no urge to create
anything from wood at the moment.

The new computer means I can finally get Jack working without 10,000 xruns.
This means I can run FluidSynth, ZynAddSFX, Hydrogen and Rosegarden
simultaneously, among other things.

I've been screwing with this stuff trying to get just enough of a feel for
it to knock my new version of the tutorial out and get back to business as
usual, but playing with all these things has gotten me very excited about
making music again.

Now it's not my shop time standing in the way of finishing this
documentation, but instead the sheer number of hours I've spent jubilantly
farting around with all these cool new toys.

I'm gonna run with it. Musical inspiration doesn't strike very often, and
my table saw will still be there when I get ready for it. If I actually
make anything out of all these musical post-it notes, I could spend a month
working on the docs and another month working on my music. It might be
summer before I start in on my chess box.

I'll be in and out, but I'm not even going to try to keep up.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan wrote:
It's ironic that I just got my long-awaited saw and I feel no urge to create
anything from wood at the moment.

The new computer means I can finally get Jack working without 10,000 xruns.
This means I can run FluidSynth, ZynAddSFX, Hydrogen and Rosegarden
simultaneously, among other things.

I've been screwing with this stuff trying to get just enough of a feel for
it to knock my new version of the tutorial out and get back to business as
usual, but playing with all these things has gotten me very excited about
making music again.

Now it's not my shop time standing in the way of finishing this
documentation, but instead the sheer number of hours I've spent jubilantly
farting around with all these cool new toys.

I'm gonna run with it. Musical inspiration doesn't strike very often, and
my table saw will still be there when I get ready for it. If I actually
make anything out of all these musical post-it notes, I could spend a month
working on the docs and another month working on my music. It might be
summer before I start in on my chess box.

I'll be in and out, but I'm not even going to try to keep up.

Head injury is my guess.
j4

"Silvan" wrote in message

It's ironic that I just got my long-awaited saw and I feel no urge to
create
anything from wood at the moment.

It'll hit again before you know it. This typically happens to me about every
three months or so on my own woodworking projects, particularly if I've
logged a lot of shop time in the interim. If I am doing something for
someone else, I can keep at it until I'm done.

AAMOF, I am going through the same thing myself. I have a bunch of mortises
marked out, but just can't seem to get out there and get them cut. I
completed two fairly large projects in the past couple of months, and I've
got an out of town gig this weekend , so seem to be using those to justify
the inertness this week.

Know how you feel about the music ... other than my kids, that has always
been the most important thing in my life. Still trying to capture that
feeling when, at 10 or so, I first strummed a five string banjo chord
against a friend's guitar chord and heard, and felt, "that sound" ... it was
a religious experience.

.... and music in the shop is as important as the table saw or any other
tool, IMO.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

"Silvan" wrote in message
...


I'm gonna run with it. Musical inspiration doesn't strike very often, and
my table saw will still be there when I get ready for it. If I actually

Think this is wise. Even if I'm midstream in a project, on those days I
don't feel like 'dorking, I don't. On those days I do, I 'dork.
Fortunately, this is a hobby. Would be a different story if it were my
livelihood.

I think if you force it, you won't enjoy it (as much).

jo4hn wrote:
Head injury is my guess.

Naw, he's chasing a Muse. We all do, in our own ways, he's just
doing it sequentially.
Dave in Fairfax
--
reply-to doesn't work
use:
daveldr at att dot net
American Association of Woodturners
http://www.woodturner.org
Capital Area Woodturners
http://www.capwoodturners.org/

jo4hn wrote:

I'll be in and out, but I'm not even going to try to keep up.

Head injury is my guess.

Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant*

I'd put my table saw here, and my workbench here...

I could never afford one of those things though. I figure $15,000 for the
building and slab, and that doesn't even include electrical, insulation,
sheetrock or HVAC.

I guess that's a dream that will have to wait until my kids are out of
school and have moved out of my house at age 32.

I could probably do it much, much cheaper than that too, but only if I knew
something about carpentry.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Swingman wrote:

anything from wood at the moment.

It'll hit again before you know it. This typically happens to me about
every three months or so on my own woodworking projects, particularly if
I've logged a lot of shop time in the interim. If I am doing something for
someone else, I can keep at it until I'm done.

I went out there about last July, and pretty much spent all daylight free
time out there all through the fall and winter. I'm still scratching my
head trying to figure myself out though. I was out there freezing my butt
off. Now that the weather is more agreeable, I'm in the house playing on
the computer. That's bassackwards for sure.

I'm weird. I guess that's no great revelation to anyone here though, is it?
LOL!

Know how you feel about the music ... other than my kids, that has always
been the most important thing in my life. Still trying to capture that
feeling when, at 10 or so, I first strummed a five string banjo chord
against a friend's guitar chord and heard, and felt, "that sound" ... it
was a religious experience.

I'm still a pathetic hack though, I'm afraid. I started playing flute in
middle school band, way back when. I got my first guitar shortly after I
got my first job. I was playing around with sequencing MIDI from sheet
music back then, and I asked for the piano version of "The Wall" songbook.
Mom got me the tab edition. So I had to buy a guitar to see if I could
figure out how to play the tab. (I still have that thing too, and I play
it every night. Best $130 I've *ever* spent.

I never have. I can play "Is There Anybody Out There?" badly, but I always
screw it up. It's the only song in the whole book I even try to play. I'm
no David Gilmour.

Oh well. I have fun. My fingers are too clumsy and my breath too short to
be especially good at playing anything, but at least I can feel the groove
and get into the music and lose myself. You don't have to be a shredder or
a virtuoso to enjoy playing music.

In fact, with my clumsy fingers and generally plain level of technique, I
think I'd make a *perfect* bass player. G, D & R

... and music in the shop is as important as the table saw or any other
tool, IMO.

I have "Wish You Were Here" in the CD player out there at the moment. Good
hand planing music.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

"Silvan" wrote in message
news
Swingman wrote:
I went out there about last July, and pretty much spent all daylight free
time out there all through the fall and winter. I'm still scratching my
head trying to figure myself out though. I was out there freezing my butt
off. Now that the weather is more agreeable, I'm in the house playing on
the computer. That's bassackwards for sure.

I'm weird. I guess that's no great revelation to anyone here though, is
it?
LOL!

Ummm, no comment! I've seen some of the messages you've posted about your
wife, so it's still no comment.

"Silvan" wrote in message

In fact, with my clumsy fingers and generally plain level of technique, I
think I'd make a *perfect* bass player. G, D & R

LOL ... no doubt you have the qualifications down pat ... when we were kids
it was always the guy who couldn't do anything else who got stuck on bass.
Definitely, if you do it right, it can be boring to those who want to be hot
shots, but I've never felt that way, particularly when working with a good
drummer. AAMOF, I could care less who else is on stage when the drumming is
right, as has been the case the past twenty years or so. For the past few
years I have been playing primarily with a bunch of players
(www.wildriverband.com) who truly love their music (Western Swing), and are
damn good at it (one is in the steel guitar hall of fame and played with Bob
Wills from '46 to '51, and still going strong) ... that has been more fun
than the old, strictly mercenary days, of being on the road much of the
time.

BTW, don't believe the BS about the bass player not getting laid ... it is a
pure, jealousy driven rumor, started by wannabe lead guitarists and fiddle
players ... well, it _used_ to be in any event. At my age, one of those 20
something cuties you see backstage would scare the crap out of me, though
the foxy mature ones with a twinkle in their eye are as present as ever, and
more appreciative to boot.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 4/13/04

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:24:01 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

jo4hn wrote:

I'll be in and out, but I'm not even going to try to keep up.

Head injury is my guess.

Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant*

I'd put my table saw here, and my workbench here...

I could never afford one of those things though. I figure $15,000 for the
building and slab, and that doesn't even include electrical, insulation,
sheetrock or HVAC.

I guess that's a dream that will have to wait until my kids are out of
school and have moved out of my house at age 32.

I could probably do it much, much cheaper than that too, but only if I knew
something about carpentry.

have you checked into metal buildings? they can be had cheep if you
pour your own slab and erect it yourself BUT they could be hard to
cool in the summer and the electrical may need to be in conduit or BX
cable. BTW don't even try to fight the addiction! and yes, it is an
addiction! lol.....

skeez

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:30:14 -0500, "Swingman" wrote:

BTW, don't believe the BS about the bass player not getting laid ... it is a
pure, jealousy driven rumor, started by wannabe lead guitarists and fiddle
players ...

A rumor well debunked in "This is Spinal Tap". G

Barry

Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 5:24pm (Silvan)
drools out:
Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant* snip

HD, eh? I knew you had little taste, but didn't realize just how
little.

I keeps tellin'a ya. Getcha a used camper, gut it, and you have an
instant, insulated, wired, and portable, shop. Sell the fixtures, and
you could even wind up getting it free, or close to it. I've seen 20-30
footers going for less than $1,000, and 15-20 footers around $400, and
that's with working furnace, and ofen working A/C. That's how I was
gonna do it, but, of course, when I was ready to buy (meaning finally
got some money), couldn't find a one. So, my 8X12' shop cost me $835,
put up in one morning, by the guy I bougt it from. Case of, buy then,
or piddle the money away, an no shop - ever. And, within a week after I
got my shop, found several suitable (affordable) campers. No regrets,
if I hadn't bought then, probably wouldn't have even that today.

JOAT
I will feel equality has arrived when we can elect to office women who
are as unqualified as some of the men who are already there.
- Maureen Reagan

Do what I do, get a power cord, and longer cord for your modem, and that
really comfortable old chair with a small table and drinks food and
other essentials. then take the computer with ya out into the great
outdoors.

I went out there about last July, and pretty much spent all daylight free
time out there all through the fall and winter. I'm still scratching my
head trying to figure myself out though. I was out there freezing my butt
off. Now that the weather is more agreeable, I'm in the house playing on
the computer. That's bassackwards for sure.

Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 5:24pm (Silvan)
drools out:
Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant* snip


If you can figure out how to build a decent chess board, then the skill
level required to build a shop that won't fall down is certainly not beyond
your grasp.

Basic foundation and framing has been worked out, and set in code, such
that it is pretty much follow the numbers. You can buy the kits if you
want, but a guy with your reputation for doing things 'thrifty' need not
spend that kind of scratch for some on else to gather the materials in one
place.

Betcha there's a book or three in the library.

However, there's lotsa good stuff to do, now that spring has sprung.

Patriarch,
whose shop is in the former garage, and built an 8x12 shed to house the
displaced garden implements and supplies....

the sheer number of hours I've spent jubilantly
farting around with all these cool new toys.

Heh, jubilantly farting around... The boy's got a bent for language. I'm still
playing with "Organic" gleanings. Never heard a 65 YO say "mahalo"! Tom
Someday, it'll all be over....

Silvan writes:


Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant*

I'd put my table saw here, and my workbench here...

I could never afford one of those things though. I figure $15,000 for the
building and slab, and that doesn't even include electrical, insulation,
sheetrock or HVAC.

Yuppified. That's ridiculous. You're in an area where ye ol' basic house goes
for about $75 a SF finished, including land. Get fancy and you can bump $100.
$37.50 is a touch high when there's none of the fancy floors, walls, ceilings,
lighting fixtures and plumbing.

I could probably do it much, much cheaper than that too, but only if I knew
something about carpentry.

Yeah. My shop, 1200 SF, cost me roughly $11,000 to $12,000 bucks. It's not
perfect and I'm not a great carpenter, and I was one helluva lot older than you
before I got started on it, but my wife and I did 98% of the work ourselves, I
scrounged for materials (old tools for windows, used rough, green lumber for
much of the framing, etc.). That's with a plywood floor, all the wiring in (200
amp Square D with 40 holes), and a scrounged electric furnace. I popped a
couple air conditioners in the windows this past weekend, but those were a
couple we had in the house before we put in central air.

Major mistake: do NOT even think about putting up posts before you've got help
and material on hand to gird the top. Twisted like a sumbitch and required some
fancy stepping to get the thing close to square at the top edge afterwards. In
fact, it's still several inches out.

Even scrounged the post holes: a friend down the road came up and drilled 'em
with his post hole differ on his tractor.

Helps if you marry a farm girl. At least she will know what end of the shovel
goes in the hole when it's time to make the holes a bit larger.

Charlie Self
"If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our
institutions, great is our sin." Charles Darwin

charliediy wrote:

Even scrounged the post holes: a friend down the road came up and drilled 'em
with his post hole differ on his tractor.

AAAARGH!

Change the "ff" to "gg".

Charlie Self
"If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our
institutions, great is our sin." Charles Darwin

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
charliediy wrote:

Even scrounged the post holes: a friend down the road came up and drilled
'em
with his post hole differ on his tractor.

AAAARGH!

'S' alright Charlie. Most of us understand what a post hole differ
is.(snicker)

--
Nahmie
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving
safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside,
thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, 'WOW! What A
Ride!'"




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.657 / Virus Database: 422 - Release Date: 4/13/2004

(J T) wrote in message ...
Wed, Apr 14, 2004, 5:24pm (Silvan)
drools out:
Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant* snip

HD, eh? I knew you had little taste, but didn't realize just how
little.

I keeps tellin'a ya. Getcha a used camper, gut it, and you have an
instant, insulated, wired, and portable, shop. Sell the fixtures, and
you could even wind up getting it free, or close to it. I've seen 20-30
footers going for less than $1,000, and 15-20 footers around $400, and
that's with working furnace, and ofen working A/C. That's how I was
gonna do it, but, of course, when I was ready to buy (meaning finally
got some money), couldn't find a one. So, my 8X12' shop cost me $835,
put up in one morning, by the guy I bougt it from. Case of, buy then,
or piddle the money away, an no shop - ever. And, within a week after I
got my shop, found several suitable (affordable) campers. No regrets,
if I hadn't bought then, probably wouldn't have even that today.

JOAT

Around here (Pittsburgh, PA) I fairly often see used portable
classrooms for sale by schools. These are really double wide trailers
with no internal walls. They usually have windows and a door on one
wall and the remaining three walls are usable (may have chalkboards,
whiteboards or tackboards on them). They are fully wired, fully
insulated, have lots of flouresent lighting, and self-contained
heating and airconditioning. They tend to be around 800 to 900 square
feet. The cost is usually fairly nominal for the size (a couple
thousand or so) but you pay to dismantle and move and then set up at
your location and you usually are not given a lot of time to do so. I
have often thought that if I ever have a home with the land space
needed to place one of these I would keep my eyes open or if I ever
buy that campsite on the river I would put one of these on it.

Dave Hall

In article , Charlie Self
wrote:

AAAARGH!

Change the "ff" to "gg".

Charlie, I'm pretty sure Grampa kept his post hole differ in the shed
next to his rat hole pounder (for pounding sand into rat holes, of
course).

He always promised to teach me how to use the RHP when I was older.
Bugger up and died before that happened, when I was only 42.

;-)

--
Was that last sig line lame or what?

Charlie Self wrote:

building and slab, and that doesn't even include electrical, insulation,
sheetrock or HVAC.

Yuppified. That's ridiculous. You're in an area where ye ol' basic house
goes for about $75 a SF finished, including land. Get fancy and you can

Um... Yeah, I guess you're right, even now. That's about what it's going
for now that the property values have been artificially inflated
county-wide. Until last year, it used to be $37.50. At least tax-wise.
About $40 in real life. So I guess that means it's about $80 in real life
now, and I have a $160,000 house now. (No, actually, it means I'm just
paying taxes out the ass, and I still have an $80,000 house.)

I could probably do it much, much cheaper than that too, but only if I
knew something about carpentry.

Yeah. My shop, 1200 SF, cost me roughly $11,000 to $12,000 bucks. It's not
perfect and I'm not a great carpenter, and I was one helluva lot older
than you before I got started on it, but my wife and I did 98% of the work

I'm a rock bottom dead crappy carpenter. I have no idea what I'm doing at
all. That's kind of a down side.

I think I'd have to be a weenie and use a plan. Maybe even a kit.

all the wiring in (200 amp Square D with 40 holes), and a scrounged

The wiring is going to suck bigtime. I either go with separate meters and
pay my electric bill twice, or I put a new panel in the house so I can feed
out to the new panel in the shop. There's nothing in between.

Major mistake: do NOT even think about putting up posts before you've got
help and material on hand to gird the top. Twisted like a sumbitch and
required some fancy stepping to get the thing close to square at the top
edge afterwards. In fact, it's still several inches out.

Ugh.

Even scrounged the post holes: a friend down the road came up and drilled
'em with his post hole differ on his tractor.

It's a good friend who will let you borrow holes.

Helps if you marry a farm girl. At least she will know what end of the
shovel goes in the hole when it's time to make the holes a bit larger.

That's a big down side. SWMBO is absolutely 100% useless for this. I might
get Mom to help. Mom's a farm girl by breeding if not by upbringing, but
she's getting old, and she has back/knee/shoulder problems.

On the bright side, by the time I can *actually* afford this, my son will be
old enough to help. Hell, he'll probably be as old as I am now by then.


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

J T wrote:

Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant* snip

HD, eh? I knew you had little taste, but didn't realize just how
little.

Have you *looked* at those things? Considering the POS I have for a shop
now, I think I can be forgiven for some panting. They're a lot nicer than
I would have imagined.

Just godawful expensive to buy from them.

I keeps tellin'a ya. Getcha a used camper, gut it, and you have an
instant, insulated, wired, and portable, shop. Sell the fixtures, and

I'm just not really interested in going that route. I want something that
will look nice. Any camper I could get cheap/free would be some
dilapidated piece of crap or else it wouldn't be cheap/free. I've invested
a great deal of time, effort and more than a little money making my place
look nice. I don't want some ugly piece of junk slapped in the middle of
my yard. It just isn't going to happen.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

patriarch wrote:

Betcha there's a book or three in the library.

I do have a "buid your own house" book.

However, there's lotsa good stuff to do, now that spring has sprung.

Like mow. Somehow having started mowing in April just feels wrong.
I'll have to mow every week from now until October, and it's already
getting old.

I can't wait 'til my boy's legs get just a little longer.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

skeezics wrote:

have you checked into metal buildings? they can be had cheep if you
pour your own slab and erect it yourself BUT they could be hard to
cool in the summer and the electrical may need to be in conduit or BX
cable. BTW don't even try to fight the addiction! and yes, it is an
addiction! lol.....

It's definitely a thought. I watched the guy across the street build a
50,000 sq. ft. metal industrial building in a couple of weeks by himself.
Just him and an an off-road forklift. Had to get a helper once or twice
when he was doing the top beams, IIRC.

I have looked into a few though, and they don't seem to make them small
enough for my site.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Swingman wrote:

BTW, don't believe the BS about the bass player not getting laid ... it is
a pure, jealousy driven rumor, started by wannabe lead guitarists and
fiddle
players ... well, it _used_ to be in any event. At my age, one of those
20 something cuties you see backstage would scare the crap out of me,
though the foxy mature ones with a twinkle in their eye are as present as
ever, and more appreciative to boot.

You dirty old man you!

FWIW, the best bass player I know doesn't play one of those electroflummies.
That dude is awesome. I didn't know a bass could do stuff like what he
does with one.

Those critters are EXPENSIVE though. Plus I'm too stupid to play anything
that doesn't have frets.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan wrote:

I'm a rock bottom dead crappy carpenter. I have no idea what I'm doing at
all. That's kind of a down side.

I think I'd have to be a weenie and use a plan. Maybe even a kit.

Mike...

USDA used to publish a couple of how-to books dealing with
low-budget rural/agricultural construction that I think might be
of some help. What I liked about the books was that they assumed
the reader knew nothing about carpentry or construction (that was
a fairly apt description of me at the time), had lots of
drawings, and maintained a good balance between "how" and "why".

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

Your neighbors thank you.

"Silvan" wrote in message newshabl1-

I'm just not really interested in going that route. I want something that
will look nice. Any camper I could get cheap/free would be some
dilapidated piece of crap or else it wouldn't be cheap/free. I've
invested
a great deal of time, effort and more than a little money making my place
look nice. I don't want some ugly piece of junk slapped in the middle of
my yard. It just isn't going to happen.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan wrote in news:5labl1-
:

patriarch wrote:

Betcha there's a book or three in the library.

I do have a "buid your own house" book.

However, there's lotsa good stuff to do, now that spring has sprung.

Like mow. Somehow having started mowing in April just feels wrong.
I'll have to mow every week from now until October, and it's already
getting old.

I can't wait 'til my boy's legs get just a little longer.


A friend of mine near Auburn, CA (Sierra foothills) went to the SPCA, and
bought himself a $20 billy goat, who loves to eat poison oak, grass, and
almost everything within reach of his line. And if he gets to be too much
trouble, the SPCA will be glad to take him back, I guess.

Not the cutest, most cuddly looking creature I ever saw. His wife calls
the goat 'Lucifer'. ;-)

Patriarch

What's even worse is when you get used to having him mow then he grows up
and moves out.

"Silvan" wrote in message news:5labl1-

Like mow. Somehow having started mowing in April just feels wrong.
I'll have to mow every week from now until October, and it's already
getting old.

I can't wait 'til my boy's legs get just a little longer.

Silvan responds:


Yuppified. That's ridiculous. You're in an area where ye ol' basic house
goes for about $75 a SF finished, including land. Get fancy and you can

Um... Yeah, I guess you're right, even now. That's about what it's going
for now that the property values have been artificially inflated
county-wide. Until last year, it used to be $37.50. At least tax-wise.
About $40 in real life. So I guess that means it's about $80 in real life
now, and I have a $160,000 house now. (No, actually, it means I'm just
paying taxes out the ass, and I still have an $80,000 house.)

Yeah. I know about that. We're paying taxes on a house that is worth about half
what the evaluation is. I've offered to sell the county the property for the
eval, but no takers.

What I am talking about is what a builder is going to charge you for an
addition or new structure. $75 a square foot. Has no relation at all to tax
rates, which have little relation to reality anyway.

I think I'd have to be a weenie and use a plan. Maybe even a kit.

Still not that expensive.

The wiring is going to suck bigtime. I either go with separate meters and
pay my electric bill twice, or I put a new panel in the house so I can feed
out to the new panel in the shop. There's nothing in between.

When I get back, I'll see if we can get together and you can go see a friend's
shop. He knew zip, or a little less, about wiring. Taught himself. Did a much
better job than I did, for a variety of reasons including personality (he has a
lot more patience than I do, to start, and is a lot more anal for
another...good wiring really requires an anal personality).

On the bright side, by the time I can *actually* afford this, my son will be
old enough to help. Hell, he'll probably be as old as I am now by then.


Then plan. Plan big. Plan small. Plan medium. Keep planning, using the switch
box or graphed paper or a drafting set-up. When you get ready to go, you'll
have the plan you need ready. And read. Read everything you can find on
carpentry and residential construction and a little on light commercial
construction.

It'll keep you out of mischief, too.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

Silvan notes:

I have looked into a few though, and they don't seem to make them small
enough for my site.

Smallest is 21' x 28'. http://www.ironbuilt.com/ib_specials.html

If I'd know about these when I built my shop....

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

Mon, Apr 19, 2004, 5:13am (EDT+4) et
(patriarch) says:
snip goat, who loves to eat poison oak, grass, and almost everything
within reach of his line.snip

Including bark. That's why people pen then where they want brush
cleared out.

JOAT
The Good are Innocent so they invented Justice. The Evil are Guilty so
they invented Mercy.
- Unknown

Sun, Apr 18, 2004, 6:03pm (Silvan) says:
snip I'm just not really interested in going that route. snip

Then start checking your local bargain papers. You can find
companies willing to sell you kits, erect on your site, with payment
plans, etc. Almost any size you want, or are willing to pay for.

Or, check on local guys moonlighting. My shop is only 8X12, for
$875. That's what I could afford. Up in one Sat morning, by the guy
that sold/made it. He also makes (prefabs), delivers, and sets up,
smaller, or up to two car garage size, at least, priced accordingly.
Probably cost more if he went out of state. The price was cheaper than
the kits I found, and I didn't have to do any of the work. Yes, I could
have paid less for materials, and done it myself. However, I would have
had to had the materials delivered, it would have been a major pain (no
pun intended) for me to construct, considering my joints it would also
have been painful, and would have probably taken me a couple of weeks.

One financing option is a signature loan from your bank, for $5,000
or less. Interest rates are a LOT less than credit card, pay off in 2
years, and they can take payments direct from your checking - so one
less bill to worry about.

Besides, the campers I've seen are OK on the outside, only trashed
on the inside. But, your shop, your money, your choice.

But, if you've got access to a bunch of logs, doesn't matter if
they're split or not, cut them in about 1' lengths, and make a cordwood
shop building (yep, that's the terminology). Not hard, looks good,
cheap. Or, a batch of scraw bales, for a straw straw shop (yup, i'ts a
legiitimate type of building practice), check it out. You can make them
look as good as you want 2X4 cutoffs. Etc. There's more ways, but I'm
gonna make me a cup of something hot to drink.

JOAT
The Good are Innocent so they invented Justice. The Evil are Guilty so
they invented Mercy.
- Unknown

Silvan wrote:

Maybe not as much as you think. I just went to HD and looked at their
buildings. 20' x 20'... *pant pant pant*

I'd put my table saw here, and my workbench here...

I could never afford one of those things though. I figure $15,000 for the
building and slab, and that doesn't even include electrical, insulation,
sheetrock or HVAC.

I guess that's a dream that will have to wait until my kids are out of
school and have moved out of my house at age 32.

I could probably do it much, much cheaper than that too, but only if I knew
something about carpentry.

Maybe some of youse guys that live withing driving distance of Silvan
should get together and stick frame him a workshop. One weekend to run
plumbing, electrics, and pour a slab, and a second to frame it and close
it in. Need a retired contractor or two to put together a plan
(windows, barn doors, etc) and to get the dreaded permits. Sign up
sheets for volunteers. I'll contribute $50 for donuts and coffee or
romex or whatever. Somebody out there want to start this up?
mahalo,
jo4hn

p.s. This could be a biggie, how about Workshops for Woodworkers?

jo4hn notes:

Maybe some of youse guys that live withing driving distance of Silvan
should get together and stick frame him a workshop. One weekend to run
plumbing, electrics, and pour a slab, and a second to frame it and close
it in. Need a retired contractor or two to put together a plan
(windows, barn doors, etc) and to get the dreaded permits. Sign up
sheets for volunteers. I'll contribute $50 for donuts and coffee or
romex or whatever. Somebody out there want to start this up?


Hell, I'll try to remember to toss my extra 250' of #12 on the truck this
coming weekend as I head down to Bedford. I've also got maybe 75-100' of #10 in
the shop down there. But he's gotta come get it. I won't have time to roll up
to B'burg. Actually, I'll roll through it twice, at ungodly hours. but without
time for a stop. If I got off 460 in that mess around VT, I'd never get back
where I need to be.

I got the #12 when I started thinking about rewiring the garage here--until I
found out the local rip-off artists that pretend to be a power company wanted a
frigging grand to locate a single lousy pole and a meter. Scroom.

Got a framing hammer he can have, too. But not the titanium one.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

Charlie Self wrote:

jo4hn notes:

Maybe some of youse guys that live withing driving distance
of Silvan should get together and stick frame him a
workshop. One weekend to run plumbing, electrics, and pour
a slab, and a second to frame it and close it in. Need a
retired contractor or two to put together a plan (windows,
barn doors, etc) and to get the dreaded permits. Sign up
sheets for volunteers. I'll contribute $50 for donuts and
coffee or romex or whatever. Somebody out there want to
start this up?

Hell, I'll try to remember to toss my extra 250' of #12 on the
truck this coming weekend as I head down to Bedford. I've also
got maybe 75-100' of #10 in the shop down there. But he's
gotta come get it. I won't have time to roll up to B'burg.
Actually, I'll roll through it twice, at ungodly hours. but
without time for a stop. If I got off 460 in that mess around
VT, I'd never get back where I need to be.

I got the #12 when I started thinking about rewiring the
garage here--until I found out the local rip-off artists that
pretend to be a power company wanted a frigging grand to
locate a single lousy pole and a meter. Scroom.

Got a framing hammer he can have, too. But not the titanium
one.

How could I resist free donuts? Count me in. Let's get this done
before July!

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto, Iowa USA

snip

Maybe some of youse guys that live withing driving distance of Silvan
should get together and stick frame him a workshop. One weekend to run
plumbing, electrics, and pour a slab, and a second to frame it and close
it in. Need a retired contractor or two to put together a plan
(windows, barn doors, etc) and to get the dreaded permits. Sign up
sheets for volunteers. I'll contribute $50 for donuts and coffee or
romex or whatever. Somebody out there want to start this up?
mahalo,
jo4hn

p.s. This could be a biggie, how about Workshops for Woodworkers?

Hell, I'm game. Seems like we could put up a 20x20 shed in a weekend,
if the slab were formed on Fri afternoon. Sat morning, pour slab,
prefab walls. Sat afternoon, get under roof. Sun morn, finish
framing and roofing. Sun afternoon, start electric. We can at least
get the wires pulled. Nailing up new work boxes and installing
outlets and switches is no big deal, right?

I realize, of course, that that schedule is not for a pair of buddies
who pop the first beer at 9 a.m. But with 6-8-10 hard-chargers, that
shouldn't pose a problem, especially with a 20x20. Drywall and
insulation can get done whenever.

Silvan, you just let me know when and where to show up.

How far is Virginia Tech from Cleveland, anyway?

-Phil Crow

Phil Crow asks:


Hell, I'm game. Seems like we could put up a 20x20 shed in a weekend,
if the slab were formed on Fri afternoon. Sat morning, pour slab,
prefab walls. Sat afternoon, get under roof. Sun morn, finish
framing and roofing. Sun afternoon, start electric. We can at least
get the wires pulled. Nailing up new work boxes and installing
outlets and switches is no big deal, right?

I realize, of course, that that schedule is not for a pair of buddies
who pop the first beer at 9 a.m. But with 6-8-10 hard-chargers, that
shouldn't pose a problem, especially with a 20x20. Drywall and
insulation can get done whenever.

Silvan, you just let me know when and where to show up.

How far is Virginia Tech from Cleveland, anyway?


How far is Cleveland from Parkersburg, WV? P'burg is just about 3-1/2 hours to
Blacksburg.

Charlie Self
"Abstainer: a weak person who yields to the temptation of denying himself a
pleasure." Ambrose Bierce

On 19 Apr 2004 17:48:41 -0700, (Phil Crow)
wrote:


How far is Virginia Tech from Cleveland, anyway?


How about CT? I was in Norfolk about 8 weeks ago. How far from
Norfolk? All I need is a place for my 8' square tent, a shower, and
a bathroom.

I can also see 15 'wreck boys and girls arguing on the right way to
cut the joint and which CMS is within .000001 of square. G

Barry

"B a r r y" wrote in message

I can also see 15 'wreck boys and girls arguing on the right way to
cut the joint and which CMS is within .000001 of square. G

Barry

Nothing to argue. It is either square of it is not. .000001 out is NOT

Ed