On 2009-12-17, J. Clarke wrote:

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

They hadda keep replacing them.

nb

notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Over 60 years ago one of the most reliable and efficient automobiles
known to mankind, and to this day the best selling car in history, hit
the ground running ... the "Volkswagen".

Complete and total bull****! As a mechanic who has owned more than
one VW, don't even bother with trying to convince me of VW's
reliability. A good practical design (bug) yes. Reliable? Please.
My first bug, the engine trashed itself at a mere 45mph. The brakes
locked up by themselves.

Sounds more like the guy who sold it to you saw a chump coming and you
simply proved he was right.

Not as sad as your total failure at exercising common sense.

Moi? ...lol. Don't look now, nutbob, but your little personal anecdote
above tells that tale about you.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

Smitty Two wrote:

The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

Yeah, but how many cars come with a tool kit? Admittedly, the tool kit
wasn't much. It consisted of a cylinder with two socket ends (which fit
virtually every nut on the car), two screwdrivers, a pair of pliers, and a
metal rod used to turn the socket cylinder.

There's a video floating aroung (Guiness Book of Records folks) showing a
crew removing a VW engine, moving the engine four feet from the rear bumper,
reinstalling the engine, then driving the bug away. In one minute, four
seconds.

notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-17, J. Clarke wrote:

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

They hadda keep replacing them.

Give up, nutbob ... you're in over your head.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

J. Clarke wrote:

Uh, you might want to actually get drunk with a few teachers sometime
before you blame them. They have to do what they can with what
they've got and what they've got these days isn't much (and I'm not
talking about the kids, I'm talking about the rules they are required
to work under). Wanna fix education, first shoot all the professors
of education and all the school boards.

John Silber, former president of Boston College, was asked what one thing
could be done to improve the quality of education in America. He answered:
"Abolish colleges of education."

HeyBub wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

Yeah, but how many cars come with a tool kit? Admittedly, the tool kit
wasn't much. It consisted of a cylinder with two socket ends (which fit
virtually every nut on the car), two screwdrivers, a pair of pliers, and a
metal rod used to turn the socket cylinder.

There's a video floating aroung (Guiness Book of Records folks) showing a
crew removing a VW engine, moving the engine four feet from the rear bumper,
reinstalling the engine, then driving the bug away. In one minute, four
seconds.

My motor pool guys would repair any VW engine, on the mess hall table,
for no charge and in about twenty minutes. In the service in Germany in
the 60's and 70's there was the proverbial "$50 Volkswagen", which you
bought for $50 from the guy going back home, and sold it for $50 to the
next guy when you left. Some of those things had titles as long as your
arm and had changed hands literally dozens of times.

My "$50 Volkswagen" a 1960, with tire chains on it, would take on any
blizzard with style; being air cooled, it never failed to start in
subzero weather, and it would run on the Autobahn all day at 80mph.

When winter hit in Southern Bavaria, and since I lived 20 miles from
base on mountain roads, I left the 2002TI at home and drove the Bug by
choice for the duration.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

Leon wrote:
"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
Snip


I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about.
Not the price point engineered models they started making to woo and
placate the American consumer with the junk they prefer.

Exactly!

With regard to the "price point engineered models", those were not any
cheaper to produce than the original Beetle--the reason they exist is that
it was impossible to make the Beetle meet US emission and safety regulations
without a major redesign (it was designed in 1936, remember--by the '60s it
had already had a really good run). And the Beetle itself had been "price
point engineered" from the outset.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
Snip


I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about.
Not the price point engineered models they started making to woo
and placate the American consumer with the junk they prefer.

Exactly!



The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

However since there was so little to it, it tended to be reliable as
well--there just wan't much on it that could break.

In article ,
"HeyBub" wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

Yeah, but how many cars come with a tool kit? Admittedly, the tool kit
wasn't much. It consisted of a cylinder with two socket ends (which fit
virtually every nut on the car), two screwdrivers, a pair of pliers, and a
metal rod used to turn the socket cylinder.

There's a video floating aroung (Guiness Book of Records folks) showing a
crew removing a VW engine, moving the engine four feet from the rear bumper,
reinstalling the engine, then driving the bug away. In one minute, four
seconds.

A friend of mine is still driving around in an ancient VW microbus. He
keeps a spare engine on hand. When the one in the car goes out, he swaps
it, then rebuilds the broken one at his leisure. Last time he broke down
he was on the freeway about 20 miles out of town. He had another friend
bring him the spare and they swapped out the engine in a half hour by
the side of the road. I'll tell him he needs to speed it up a little.

Smitty Two wrote:

The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

You obviously never owned one ... the original was one of the most
reliable automobiles ever made and their longevity is ample proof of
that "reliability".

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike are
missing the point.

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

Completely irrelevant to the issue of reliability.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike are
missing the point.

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

Completely irrelevant to the issue of reliability.

Did you not just contradict yourself with your story about friends
"ancient" VW?

Have YOU ever owned one?

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Leon" wrote:

Reefer? ;~)

A place to keep cold stuff like beer.

Lew

Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Leon" wrote:

Reefer? ;~)

A place to keep cold stuff like beer.

Tell that to Cheech and Chong!

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Give up, nutbob ... you're in over your head.

Hardly.

There's a very simple reason why experienced folks could repair a VW
in just minutes: practice!

nb

"Leon" wrote:

I replaced my electric water heater early in 2004. Looking at the
efficiency label on the old water heater and comparing to the new
$300 water heater installed by me, I determined that it would pay
for itself in less than 2 years.

Does your utility offer discount rates for an electric hot water
heater that operates only during off peak hours?

When my dad built our house in 1947, he installed a 100 gallon tank
for 3 people that only operated at night.

We always had hot water heated by low cost electricity.

Lew
..

Lew

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

You obviously never owned one ... the original was one of the most
reliable automobiles ever made and their longevity is ample proof of
that "reliability".

.....if you never left the village.

Something putting out 36bhp is not meant for highway speeds, no matter
how good the design or quality. My '60 had fully loaded semi's
passing me on the upgrade and there are still more '50 Chevy pickups
on CA highways than '60 bugs. When I got tired of reparing it and
finally sold my bug, it had to be towed away.

nb

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Did you not just contradict yourself with your story about friends
"ancient" VW?

We have a local fellow with many "ancient" VWs. None of them run, but
they've yet to rust completely away.

nb

I wrote:

Reliability was NOT my experience with a diesel Rabbit.

"notbob" wrote:

They had great seat, though!

True.

Same with the Opel and the "Bug".

Lew

On Dec 17, 11:08*am, Swingman wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

You obviously never owned one ... the original was one of the most
reliable automobiles ever made and their longevity is ample proof of
that "reliability".

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

'Reliability' is often confused with 'how-long-can-a-car-run-without-
proper-maintenance.'
If you changed the oil and set the tappets on an old Bug, on a regular
basis, those engines would run forever.
VW Diesels are as inconsistent as the fuel you feed them.

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike are
missing the point.

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60, was
in
continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20 million built,
both the longest and largest production runs in automotive history.

Completely irrelevant to the issue of reliability.

Did you not just contradict yourself with your story about friends
"ancient" VW?

You mean the one where he replaces the engine every 2-3 years? (And
makes all manner of other repairs on a regular basis?) No, I'm not
seeing that as a contradiction.


Have YOU ever owned one?

No, the experiences of my friends who did was all I needed to stay away
from them. But if you like them, then by all means, keep driving them.

I did own an Audi once. Worst car I've ever owned in terms of
reliability. Made by VW. I had a g.f. years ago who had a Karmann Ghia,
and it was a piece of junk, too. Then I had a g.f. with a Jetta, also
crap. Have a friend who bought one of those new VW bugs a few years ago
and it began to disintegrate at about 80k. Have a friend who owned an
original bug for 25 years, and loved it, but it was in the shop every
3-4 months. (He didn't have a frame of reference to see that as an
issue.)

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

You folks who are going on about "Rabbits" and "Jettas" and suchlike
are missing the point.

THE Volkswagen, the Type I, aka the Beetle, aka the Porsche Type 60,
was in continuous production for over 60 years with more than 20
million built, both the longest and largest production runs in
automotive history.

Completely irrelevant to the issue of reliability.

Please show me where the word "reliability" appears in the quotation to
which you were responding.

Smitty Two wrote:

I did own an Audi once. Worst car I've ever owned in terms of
reliability. Made by VW. I had a g.f. years ago who had a Karmann Ghia,
and it was a piece of junk, too. Then I had a g.f. with a Jetta, also
crap. Have a friend who bought one of those new VW bugs a few years ago
and it began to disintegrate at about 80k. Have a friend who owned an
original bug for 25 years, and loved it, but it was in the shop every
3-4 months. (He didn't have a frame of reference to see that as an
issue.)

Two friends have/had between them three fairly recent Audis. The
transmission in one just "blew up." A year or two back on "Car Talk"
somebody called to report that his Audi (either A4 or A6; I no longer
remember which) was burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles and the
dealer said not to worry about it.

Perce

notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Give up, nutbob ... you're in over your head.

Hardly.

There's a very simple reason why experienced folks could repair a VW
in just minutes: practice!

Yep, with 20 million produced the increased opportunity for "practice"
would be logical, eh?

Apparently over your head also ...

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

Smitty Two wrote:

Swingman wrote:


Have YOU ever owned one?

No,

Then your "opinion" on the matter is worth absolutely nothing.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

Subject

Having owned two (2) Beetles and a diesel Rabbit, POS comes to mind as
an apt description of VW product.

Lew

On Dec 17, 11:46*am, "Percival P. Cassidy"
wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
I did own an Audi once. Worst car I've ever owned in terms of
reliability. Made by VW. I had a g.f. years ago who had a Karmann Ghia,
and it was a piece of junk, too. Then I had a g.f. with a Jetta, also
crap. Have a friend who bought one of those new VW bugs a few years ago
and it began to disintegrate at about 80k. Have a friend who owned an
original bug for 25 years, and loved it, but it was in the shop every
3-4 months. (He didn't have a frame of reference to see that as an
issue.)

Two friends have/had between them three fairly recent Audis. The
transmission in one just "blew up."

The wife of a customer of mine blew a transmission out of an Acura the
other day. That sometimes happens with performance vehicles. A distant
relative took the clutch out of a Trabant. Yup.. **** happens.

A year or two back on "Car Talk"
somebody called to report that his Audi (either A4 or A6; I no longer
remember which) was burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles and the
dealer said not to worry about it.

I find that 'caller' highly suspect and the response not indicative of
an Audi dealer. Not that you can't lose a ring, or lube-seal on a
turbo and burn a whack of oil in hurry, but the dealer response? Naaa,
there more to that story.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Leon" wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:
Snip


I bought the VW's on their past reputation.

The "Volkswagen", the original design, is what I was talking about.
Not the price point engineered models they started making to woo
and placate the American consumer with the junk they prefer.

Exactly!



The original VW bug was inexpensive to buy, and relatively inexpensive
to repair. That is hardly the same as being reliable.

However since there was so little to it, it tended to be reliable as
well--there just wan't much on it that could break.


Had two of them while living in Ethiopia. Very reliable. If parts were
needed, you could get them there, unlike most cars. Also, being air cooled,
would not boil over and leave you stranded in the desert, a potentially
deadly situation.

Robatoy wrote:

A year or two back on "Car Talk"
somebody called to report that his Audi (either A4 or A6; I no longer
remember which) was burning a quart of oil every 1000 miles and the
dealer said not to worry about it.

I find that 'caller' highly suspect and the response not indicative of
an Audi dealer. Not that you can't lose a ring, or lube-seal on a
turbo and burn a whack of oil in hurry, but the dealer response? Naaa,
there more to that story.

My landlord in Germany, (who did not speak a word of English, so there
was always the possibility that my Bayerische Deutsch was not up to the
task) was sold on Audi's, and despite his constant efforts to change my
mind, I ended up buying a BMW 2002ti ... think I payed $2600 for it in
1973. We regularly met in the driveway over a beer on Saturday morning,
making disparaging remarks about each other's choice of auto as they set
side by side.

The Army shipped the 2002ti back for me and I sold it in the late 70's
for $6500. I don't think I could of got that for his Audi.

Still, in Germany in the 70's, the Audi was considered "primo", as was
impressed upon me weekly.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

J. Clarke wrote:

With regard to the "price point engineered models", those were not any
cheaper to produce than the original Beetle--the reason they exist is that
it was impossible to make the Beetle meet US emission and safety regulations
without a major redesign (it was designed in 1936, remember--by the '60s it
had already had a really good run). And the Beetle itself had been "price
point engineered" from the outset.

Agreed on all counts ... but what superior "price point" engineering!

There was something intrinsically "elegant" about the engineering on the
original Porsche designed VW ... akin to a three line algorithm taking
the place of a thousand lines of code, if you know what I mean.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Subject

Having owned two (2) Beetles and a diesel Rabbit, POS comes to mind as
an apt description of VW product.

Once again ... yours was engineered for the American market, so you are
likely missing the point about my first post on the subject, which was
_clearly_ about the original, European version, which started production
over 60 years ago.

Some of you guys need to learn to pay more attention to what's actually
written.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Swingman wrote:


Have YOU ever owned one?

No,

Then your "opinion" on the matter is worth absolutely nothing.

Well, I'm glad we got that settled. Thanks for editing all meaningful
content out of my post, in order to create the illusion of defending
your own Meaningful Opinion. Have a nice day.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Smitty Two wrote:

Swingman wrote:

Have YOU ever owned one?
No,
Then your "opinion" on the matter is worth absolutely nothing.

Well, I'm glad we got that settled. Thanks for editing all meaningful
content out of my post, in order to create the illusion of defending
your own Meaningful Opinion. Have a nice day.

There is little meaningful about "opinion" based on hearsay ... mine was
based on owning a couple of the cars remarked upon in my original post.

Anything else is pointless 'apples and oranges'.

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2009-12-17, Lew Hodgett wrote:

They had great seat, though!

True.

Same with the Opel and the "Bug".

I can't say the same thing about the bug and Opel, but I know my
Rabbit had the greatest seats in the history of automobiles. I used
to work, on my feet, for 10-12 hrs on the production floor and at the
end of the day when I came out to my old Rab, I'd jes sit there in it
and luxuriate for a couple mins in its perfect spinal alignment. It
was like a personal chiropractor. I once considered doing my house in
Rabbit front seats... dinette set, circular lounge, etc. LOL

nb

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Apparently over your head also ...

.....as is the overwhelming contradictory feedback in this thread to
your premise that vee-dubs are reliable.

I'll concede that VW has a lot of great things going for it. I'd even
consider buying one, again. I'd like to try the later model turbo
diesels if diesel fuel in the US would stabalize. But, your zealotry
for all things Euro is just plain wrong and does not reflect my real
world experiences with all brands, worldwide. VW is no more reliable
than MANY other brands I've owned and, in fact, doesn't even rate in the
top five.

You can resort to name calling or you can discuss in a rational
discourse. The former is grounds for dismissal

nb

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:

Some of you guys need to learn to pay more attention to what's actually
written.

You need to....

Nevermind. You won't.

nb

notbob wrote:

You can resort to name calling or you can discuss in a rational
discourse. The former is grounds for dismissal

"....as opposed to baseless dogma spewed by narrow minded twits who
refuse to see beyond personal prejudices."

And example of "rational discourse" by you, eh?

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On 2009-12-17, Swingman wrote:
notbob wrote:

You can resort to name calling or you can discuss in a rational
discourse. The former is grounds for dismissal

"....as opposed to baseless dogma spewed by narrow minded twits who
refuse to see beyond personal prejudices."


A perfectly example of you inability to mount a viable argument.

Please.... continue to make a fool of yourself.

nb

notbob wrote:

A perfectly example of you inability to mount a viable argument.

Please.... continue to make a fool of yourself.

Yeah right ... you're way too easy, dude. It's been fun, but I'm going
to make some sawdust now that it's warmed up a bit.

Enjoy continuing to talk into that mirror ...

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KarlC@ (the obvious)

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 08:28:12 -0800, Lew Hodgett wrote:
I replaced my electric water heater early in 2004. Looking at the
efficiency label on the old water heater and comparing to the new
$300 water heater installed by me, I determined that it would pay
for itself in less than 2 years.

Does your utility offer discount rates for an electric hot water
heater that operates only during off peak hours?

When my dad built our house in 1947, he installed a 100 gallon tank
for 3 people that only operated at night.

We always had hot water heated by low cost electricity.

Yes, that's how ours is... water heater, clothes dryer and baseboard heat
all load-controlled on off-peak. The 30yr old fridge is probably
responsible for a good proportion of our monthly "non off-peak" bill
(along with the TV and the electric stove).

Our water heater's got one of those stickers on it which claims it's
quite high in terms of efficiency - but it's also quite old (albeit
descaled earlier this year) so newer ones probably do better. I
thought about insulating it more, but the outside surface gets barely warm
anyway - plus like with the fridge anything it loses as heat is doing
useful work for more than half the year. Maybe there is a case
for putting it on a timer just during the summer months; we usually
end up using all the hot in an evening, and there's probably no point
having it maintaining water heat all night long...

cheers

Jules