Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

I have the same problem with swelling wood driving me nuts but that's
a different story all together.

Maybe you can have the door close against an overlapping stop. Then
yoiu just cut it down to always be at least a little clear and the
ever changing gap hides behind the overlap. With the right type of
latch you should have enough play to have it work in any state of
expansion.

On Jul 27, 1:27*pm, jtpr wrote:
I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. *Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. *Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". *This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. *Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. * I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? *The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

Another possibility (but would take a rebuild I assume) is to let the
slats float in the frame with enough slot depth to accept the
expansion. The frame is long grain in the width direction and
shouldn't really change. I suppose your gate must be swelling at the
center and it will probably tear the miters apart given time anyway,
unless the slats can float. Pretty basic frame and panel now that I
think of it.

On Jul 27, 1:27*pm, jtpr wrote:
I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. *Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. *Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". *This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. *Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. * I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? *The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

I would think that for doors like this, you want the horizontal pieces
to determine the width of the door, with the wide vertical panels more
"floating". Use wide rabbets on the edge of each panel-board so the
boards overlap, and if they expand or contract it doesn't cause gaps.
One fastener per board, near the edge that's on "top" rabbet-wise, so
it holds two boards down without restricting expansion.

You'll need a diagonal cross-brace to keep the door from sagging, of
course.

Option B is to rabbet the column an inch or so across, so the door
overlaps the post more but won't stick if it expands a lot.

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

On Jul 27, 4:41*pm, DJ Delorie wrote:
I would think that for doors like this, you want the horizontal pieces
to determine the width of the door, with the wide vertical panels more
"floating". *Use wide rabbets on the edge of each panel-board so the
boards overlap, and if they expand or contract it doesn't cause gaps.
One fastener per board, near the edge that's on "top" rabbet-wise, so
it holds two boards down without restricting expansion.

You'll need a diagonal cross-brace to keep the door from sagging, of
course.

Option B is to rabbet the column an inch or so across, so the door
overlaps the post more but won't stick if it expands a lot.

I guess I should have been more specific about the construction. The
edges are 1 3/4" square with a dado cut that the slats float in. So
essentially they form a frame around the slats. I did leave some
space, but evidently not enough. The dado I cut is 1/2" deep.

-Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

On Jul 27, 4:41*pm, DJ Delorie wrote:
I would think that for doors like this, you want the horizontal pieces
to determine the width of the door, with the wide vertical panels more
"floating". *Use wide rabbets on the edge of each panel-board so the
boards overlap, and if they expand or contract it doesn't cause gaps.
One fastener per board, near the edge that's on "top" rabbet-wise, so
it holds two boards down without restricting expansion.

You'll need a diagonal cross-brace to keep the door from sagging, of
course.

Option B is to rabbet the column an inch or so across, so the door
overlaps the post more but won't stick if it expands a lot.

Oh, the 1x6's are tongue and groove.

-Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

jtpr wrote:
....
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.
....
Who told you that??? :)

I couldn't find published actual data; there are a number of
classes/types that are commercially labelled as "meranti". From the
picture I'd gather yours is one of the red (as opposed to yellow/white)
species; what I did find indicates expansion is roughly on the order of
oak (which also being ring-porous makes a certain amount of sense I'd
guess).

Anyway, rule of thumb for oak would be about 1.5% or so for initially
kiln-dried stock; for a nominal 6" plank that would translate into
roughly 1/8" or 1/2" roughly for the 27".

From your description that seems too low, too.

Did you treat the ends before assembly to at least minimize wter absorption?

Other than either adding more spacing when dry or making the tolerances
on the closing side larger there's not much to do to stop its movement.

You could minimize it somewhat w/ finishing but even that won't stop it;
just slow it down some.
--

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

jtpr wrote:
I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim
Just take the door off. Tell the neighbor "Don't look, Ethel".

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

If we weren't all a little crazy, we'd
go nuts.

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

I have two.

1. turn the grain by 90 degrees. Allow more height in a capture channel that
allows movement.

2. Have sliding panels - like you have now - but each are 2/3" width and
fit in front and back - in capture channels. As the wood expands or shrinks,
each part moves and has plenty of room. Almost like two doors in one.

Martin

jtpr wrote:
I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

On Jul 27, 7:20*pm, Gerald Ross wrote:
jtpr wrote:
I just finished building an outdoor shower using 1x6 Meranti and Cedar
posts. *Link he

http://jtpryan.smugmug.com/photos/59...9_acMNx-X3.jpg

Anyway, I had a rather tight tolerence on the door but I figured lets
see if it is OK. *Sure enough, after a monsoon the door swelled shut.
While it was still in it's swelled state I removed the end piece where
it shuts and cut it back 1/2". *This left me a good 3/8" of clearance
and while my mitres didn't look as good, all was well.

A week goes by and we get another monsoon. *Bingo, the door has
swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. * I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

Anybody have any clever ideas on how to fix this? *The dimensions on
that door are roughly 5' x 27"

Jim

Just take the door off. Tell the neighbor "Don't look, Ethel".

--
Gerald Ross
Cochran, GA

If we weren't all a little crazy, we'd
go nuts.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Right, like there is a woman out there that COULDN'T look at me...

=Jim

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

On Jul 27, 6:07*pm, dpb wrote:
jtpr wrote:

... swelled beyond the clearance again, this time just in the middle. * I
had left a hacksaw blade width between each of the boards when I built
it, which I was told was about right for movement in this kind of
wood.

...
Who told you that??? :)

I couldn't find published actual data; there are a number of
classes/types that are commercially labelled as "meranti". *From the
picture I'd gather yours is one of the red (as opposed to yellow/white)
species; what I did find indicates expansion is roughly on the order of
oak (which also being ring-porous makes a certain amount of sense I'd
guess).

Anyway, rule of thumb for oak would be about 1.5% or so for initially
kiln-dried stock; for a nominal 6" plank that would translate into
roughly 1/8" or 1/2" roughly for the 27".

*From your description that seems too low, too.

Did you treat the ends before assembly to at least minimize wter absorption?

Other than either adding more spacing when dry or making the tolerances
on the closing side larger there's not much to do to stop its movement.

You could minimize it somewhat w/ finishing but even that won't stop it;
just slow it down some.
--

Thank you. The wood supplier I purchased it gave me that "rule of
thumb". Anyway, Meranti is a Philippine Mahagony, so Mahogony would
be a good wood to comapare it to. Yes, I treated it completely.
Where did you find your figures? I would like to look up Mahogany.

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

jtpryan wrote:
....
Thank you. The wood supplier I purchased it gave me that "rule of
thumb". Anyway, Meranti is a Philippine Mahagony, so Mahogony would
be a good wood to comapare it to. Yes, I treated it completely.
Where did you find your figures? I would like to look up Mahogany.

That is a merchantability name; has nothing to do w/ the actual western
hemisphere mahoganies. "True" mahoganies such as Honduras mahogany
belong to the family Meliaceae of the Swietenia genus whereas the trees
that supply the timber for Philippine mahogany lumber and plywood belong
to the huge plant family called Dipterocarpaceae. And in that family,
the Shorea species has five distinct, commercially important trees named
meranti..

Philippine "mahogany" is thus lumber from any of the above groups.

As such, its mechanical properties are _not_ closely related to New
World mahoganies but more nearly approximate some of the oaks.

I did not find any actual published data on meranti species themselves
other than shrinkage from wet to dry which isn't of much interest for
already kiln-dried lumber.

A google search on "meranti" will lead to many sites outlining the above.

I don't have a hardcopy of the US FPL wood handbook and it's too large
to make a quick search w/ dialup practical but it's link is below.
Title: - Wood handbook - All Chapters:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=17335

What I did look at was the following which did, as I say have the drying
shrinkage data but that's not what is of interest for the subject question.

Title: Chapter 03 - Physical properties and moisture...:
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/products/publications/specific_pub.php?posting_id=16789
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr113/ch03.pdf

You're welcome to look further, of course, but it doesn't look promising
it'll be easy unless there is something in the Wood Handbook...

--

Swelling wood, driving me nuts.
 

jtpryan wrote:

Thank you. The wood supplier I purchased it gave me that "rule of
thumb". Anyway, Meranti is a Philippine Mahagony, so Mahogony would
be a good wood to comapare it to. Yes, I treated it completely.
Where did you find your figures? I would like to look up Mahogany.

Meranti - Phillipine mahogany (Shorea sp., luan, etc) - is totally different
from either new world (Sweitana sp.) or African (Khaya sp.) mahogany. So
no, mahogany would *not* be a good comparison wood.

--

dadiOH
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