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#1
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Power for the shop
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? |
#2
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Power for the shop
On Mar 15, 12:09*pm, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? Update: I went and looked at the label on the back of the dryer - it says that it should be hooked up to a maximum 30 amp circuit. Maybe I should look into installing a small sub-panel in the garage, then run a 20 amp circuit for the table saw, and a 30 amp circuit for the dryer. |
#4
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Power for the shop
Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? Most likely your building codes will dictate that the dryer has to be on its own "dedicated" circuit. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#5
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Power for the shop
"Mike" wrote So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Probably not "branch off" ... the dyer is most likely on a dedicated circuit, depending upon the requirements of your city code/NEC, but there is nothing to stop you from unplugging the dryer and plugging in the saw, providing you have the right plug for the saw. Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? Absolutely... as long as the motor is wired for 220/240v operation. The 50A circuit breaker is there for the sole protection of the insulation on the wiring of the branch circuit, and not for the saw's protection. The saw should have it's own internal thermal protection. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/22/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#6
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Power for the shop
"Mike" wrote in message ... I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the same circuit. Be certain to run the proper gauge wire. You can run your 220 volt saw on a 200 amp circuit if you want. A decent saw should have it's won over load protection built in. The circuit breaker regardless of rating is strictly intended to protect the wiring in your house. |
#7
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Power for the shop
Getting any traffic today? ;~)
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#8
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Power for the shop
Leon wrote:
Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the same circuit. Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-) -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#9
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Power for the shop
"Nova" wrote in message
... Leon wrote: Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the same circuit. Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-) That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. You have to ask yourself if it's a good law. If it is, you should consider the wisdom of circumventing it for whatever your reasons. If it isn't, you should work toward having it revoked or revised so it becomes reasonable. |
#10
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Power for the shop
"MikeWhy" wrote in message That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily. As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to be related. |
#11
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Power for the shop
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"MikeWhy" wrote in message That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily. As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to be related. Put a sign over the outlets: "Dryer 1" and "Dryer 2." |
#12
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Power for the shop
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily. As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to be related. Any wiring I do in my house is a vast improvement on the original, which in some cases, leads me to believe a previous owner was trying to invoke an insurance claim or get rid of a divorced spouse. My work will meet or exceed code, in any case, especially some of the goofy stuff they require in TN. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#13
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Power for the shop
On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? Run a disconnect. It is a separate switched fuse or breaker box, connected directly to the main buss. From there you can run an "expansion panel" Or remove one of the 220 brekers and replace it with the largest you can get and wire the "expansion panel" to that breaker, installing a breaker for the original 220 volt load in that panel. |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
... "MikeWhy" wrote in message That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily. You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection? Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves? As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to be related. Were we talking about keeping the bushes trimmed, or were we talking about the electrical work in the home? |
#15
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Power for the shop
MikeWhy wrote:
You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection? Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves? I agree that requiring an inspection is a good law. The permit is required as the fee pays for the inspection. In my area a licensed electrician is not required for a single residence when the homeowner does the work. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#16
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Power for the shop
On Mar 15, 9:09*am, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician? Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider. It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit required, usually. |
#17
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Power for the shop
"Nova" wrote in message ... Leon wrote: Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the same circuit. Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-) Yeah I know, but I "think" a home owner can do what he wants, although he will probably have to make it right if he plans on selling the house. If I move I simply plan to remove the extra outlet. |
#18
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Power for the shop
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ... "MikeWhy" wrote in message That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily. As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to be related. From what I understand, if the wiring was the cause and you personally did the wiring the insurance co. still has to pay up. This would not be the case however if they found that you intentionally make the wiring modification to burn your house down. Similar to car insurance, if you run a red light cause a wreck and get ticketed they still repair your car. IIRC that is how my agent explained it to me when I told him that I added an outlet during a reevaluation of my coverage. They are only concerned about major wiring changes to the breaker box. They want to insure that there are no unprotected circuits. |
#19
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Power for the shop
Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician
friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools! Mike wrote: I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit. There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a 50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer really pull? So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit? |
#20
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Power for the shop
On 15-Mar-2009, whit3rd wrote: On Mar 15, 9:09*am, Mike wrote: I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have 110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician? Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider. It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit required, usually. Back in Nov. I did just that. It cost me about $375 for a new panel, breakers, plus a 12ft run for my 220v space heater. It took about half a day. The electrician was happy to get the work and I was happy to have someone else do it. Now I've got two additional 110 runs and room for 5 (or 2 plus 1) more in my box -- just in case I want to expand and/or upgrade. |
#21
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Power for the shop
On Mar 15, 7:43*pm, Anon Ymous wrote:
Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools! Replacing the main breaker box at this time isn't an option, unless I want to skip getting a new saw, then there is no point to this little exercise! (well, except for having a new, possibly safer main breaker box) At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw, and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the shop. Any major problems with this plan? I've looked at the cable that currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require any changes inside the main breaker box? Just as a disclaimer, I would have everything checked out with an electrician and so on, at this point I'm just trying to determine if this plan is feasible so I have a rough idea of the cost. |
#22
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Power for the shop
"MikeWhy" wrote in message You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection? Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves? The code is written as a safety guide and tries to consider every possible bad scenario. It is still possible to do certain things safely, but not according to the code. I'm in favor of building permits and plans that meet codes, but some are kind of silly. A friend built a log cabin style house. He has a loft. If he calls it a bedroom, it is not allowed as it is and changes must be made. As long as he called it a seating area loft, it was OK'd and CO was issued. Should a permit be issued and a licensed electrician install a receptacle and have in inspected? Sure, every town will need to hire a dozen more inspectors. There are a lot of idiots out there. Some years ago I saw a basement of a fairly new home being finished. The owner was going to add some receptacles and was using lamp cord to daisy chain four of them. I pointed it out to the wife and she was going to have it changed. The people that need inspection the most are not going to get it. |
#23
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Power for the shop
The house next door is my "new" (second) shop. I wanted to
discontinued the power from the city source and service the new shop from my home, via subpanel. I contacted an electrician and described my plans and asked if he would do the specialty work. I did all the rough labor and had all other items, needed for job completion, ready for the electrician. The electrician did all the connections, after he inspected my labor work. Some of his work included disconnecting breakers for a few lines of specific use & tools from the garage & old shop and have those transferred to the new shop service, The material supplies were maybe $400 to $500 and the electrician charged me $45. It took him about an hour, we had a nice chat, and I feel safe and secure with the outcome. I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also. Sonny |
#24
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Power for the shop
Sonny wrote:
I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also. Anything else you need done? -- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/ |
#25
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Power for the shop
[...snip...]
At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw, and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the shop. Any major problems with this plan? I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel. In my case I had an electrician replace my old fuse box with a modern 200 amp panel about 15 years back. In my ignorance, I didn't specify that we should spend a few extra dollars for a panel with plenty of expansion room. Since the house is older, I have added a lot of new circuits over the years, often to reduce the load on the old wiring or to add outside lights, dedicated circuits for things like the refrigerator, washer, microwave, etc. Anyway, I quickly maxed out the panel. When I ripped down my old garage/utility room and replaced it with a shop worthy space, I got the biggest Siemens type panel I could (Siemens breakers are widely available and relatively inexpensive), took that old panel and put it in the garage as a subpanel. It is nearly full now. I've looked at the cable that currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require any changes inside the main breaker box? You could open up the outlet box the dryer plugs into and check out the wires themselves. |
#26
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Power for the shop
"Jim Weisgram" wrote:
I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel. Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24 (12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S. Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub panel. Buy what ever brand of equipment that is popular in your area. A 12/24 panel will provide all the shop capacity you will need for a typical home shop including an additional 2P-50A for a 5HP air compressor if you need one. The above based on many years in the electrical business designing electrical distribution systems and selling the above equipment. YMMV. Lew |
#27
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Power for the shop
On Mar 16, 4:39*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Jim Weisgram" wrote: I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel. Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24 (12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S. Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub panel. I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does not have a neutral wire. So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common. Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main panel and connect the new line to that breaker. |
#28
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Power for the shop
"Mike" wrote:
I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does not have a neutral wire. snip NBD. The existing main panel will have L1, L2, N & Gnd. Pull the N & G from the existing pnl. Pull L1 & L2 from the existing 2P-50 presently used to feed dryer. You now feed dryer from new sub pnl. N & G will also come from sub pnl.. Not sure about your area, but usually when you work on something, you have to bring it up to current code. Probably means you will need to replace existing dryer receptacle with a 4 wire unit and replace the dryer plug to match. Sounds like the dryer is old enough it may not require any 120V service. Lew So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common. Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main panel and connect the new line to that breaker. |
#29
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Power for the shop
"MikeWhy" wrote:
Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can find nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim, except a finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down. Stupid doesn't count. I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay". If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it. -- Doug |
#30
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Power for the shop
"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
... "MikeWhy" wrote: Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can find nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim, except a finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down. Stupid doesn't count. I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated before saying "They'd pay". If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it. I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness. |
#31
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Power for the shop
"MikeWhy" wrote in message ... "Douglas Johnson" wrote in message I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness. Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind. Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that would be a different matter. |
#32
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Power for the shop
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:55:11 -0500, "Leon"
wrote: "MikeWhy" wrote in message .. . "Douglas Johnson" wrote in message I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness. Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind. Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that would be a different matter. Right, it would have to be intentional (i.e. arson) for a claim to be denied. |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...: Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. Over building has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is better when they have no clue what is required in the first place. -- -Mike- |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of wisdom...: Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple. "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous house was a perfect example. Over building has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is better when they have no clue what is required in the first place. It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many "professionals" care about is cost and time. |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Mar 17, 11:49*pm, krw wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of wisdom...: Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. *The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. *"Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician"... *sorry, but that is just pure bull. No it really isn't. *Residential electrical work is quite simple. "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. *My previous house was a perfect example. Over building has nothing to do with doing it the right way. *Overbuilders think more is better when they have no clue what is required in the first place. It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. *Using the best materials because the difference isn't significant does matter. *All many "professionals" care about is cost and time. Yup. The seasoned smart ones can indeed cut corners in clever fashion. Those guys are dangerous and plentiful. |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of wisdom...: Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple. "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous house was a perfect example. Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job properly. I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by any real deficency in complying with code. If your house is a perfect example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician. If it's done by code, then it's done right. Maybe not the way you would do it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another. Over building has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is better when they have no clue what is required in the first place. It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many "professionals" care about is cost and time. Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by itself. Did it pass code inspection? If so, then unless you have a crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials. What does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information. Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences rather than factual, objective critique. Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task. While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not mean that other ways are somehow less adequate. -- -Mike- |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
Mike Marlow wrote:
.... ... but that does not justify denegrading the work of another. .... ... that denegrade others) ... OK, pedant that I am, once is an accident, twice is simply wrong... The word you're looking for is "denigrate"... -- |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of wisdom...: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow wrote: On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of wisdom...: Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for any lack of knowledge. Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple. "Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous house was a perfect example. Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job properly. Don't. They all likely can, but are under too much pressure to get it done quickly (cheaply). I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by any real deficency in complying with code. "Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors. Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel (in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them all, and more, done by "professional" electricians. If your house is a perfect example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician. An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He can't afford to, for his $25. If it's done by code, then it's done right. "done by code" "inspected to code" Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection. Maybe not the way you would do it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another. It wasn't a matter of not being done the way I would do it. It was damned dangerous (my MIL was getting shocked off the drier because its case was wired to 120V). Over building has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is better when they have no clue what is required in the first place. It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials ("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many "professionals" care about is cost and time. Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by itself. "Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not "subjective". Did it pass code inspection? Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults? Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How do you think they know how to do that? If so, then unless you have a crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials. Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a 200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple. Sure, it takes time and some amount of work. What does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information. $2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire, rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional" (the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they often do. Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences rather than factual, objective critique. I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a twitchy knee. Electrician? Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task. While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not mean that other ways are somehow less adequate. There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants. |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:08:55 -0500, dpb cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...: Mike Marlow wrote: ... ... but that does not justify denegrading the work of another. ... ... that denegrade others) ... OK, pedant that I am, once is an accident, twice is simply wrong... The word you're looking for is "denigrate"... Duly noted. Sure do hate getting caught at spelling errors... -- -Mike- |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Power for the shop
On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:09:21 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...: "Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors. Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel (in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them all, and more, done by "professional" electricians. You've outlined an impressive list of problems but that in no way represents the trade. Not to mention that I've seen worse done by homeowners. An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He can't afford to, for his $25. Everything you mentioned above damned sure should have been caught by an inspector. I don't know how they inspect where you live but those would never have passed around here. If it's done by code, then it's done right. "done by code" "inspected to code" Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection. No - it was pencil whipped. "Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not "subjective". Nor is the list you posted common. Did it pass code inspection? Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults? Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How do you think they know how to do that? I sure as hell do believe an inspector will find those problems. I've had tons of inspections and have a pretty good idea what inspectors around here look at. Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a 200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple. Sure, it takes time and some amount of work. No perfect world - the real world. $2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire, rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional" (the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they often do. I can accept your statement about the outlets but your statement about the aluminum wire, coupled with your other finds, is making this very hard to believe. Your inspector passed aluminum wiring? Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences rather than factual, objective critique. I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a twitchy knee. Electrician? Nope. But, I have done a bunch of wiring on the side. Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task. While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not mean that other ways are somehow less adequate. There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants. I agree that a homeowner can easily do the job. Better than the professional? Don't know why you'd feel that way. I've never seen any professional work that compares to your claims. I can agree that the homeowner can do as well, but the better part is a hard swallow. You've quoted a list of very extreme findings and frankly, they're hard to believe. Unless you're saying you came across these things individually over a period of time, that is. I'm not even sure a "professional" was at fault here. These really sound more like the handiwork of a self-proclaimed electrician, or a homeowner. -- -Mike- |
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