I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?

On Mar 15, 12:09*pm, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?

Update: I went and looked at the label on the back of the dryer - it
says that it should be hooked up to a maximum 30 amp circuit. Maybe I
should look into installing a small sub-panel in the garage, then run
a 20 amp circuit for the table saw, and a 30 amp circuit for the
dryer.

wrote:
On Mar 15, 12:09 pm, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?

Update: I went and looked at the label on the back of the dryer - it
says that it should be hooked up to a maximum 30 amp circuit. Maybe I
should look into installing a small sub-panel in the garage, then run
a 20 amp circuit for the table saw, and a 30 amp circuit for the
dryer.

If your main box is maxed out, that's probably a good idea, anyway.
While you're at it, you could upgrade the shop's electric a little.
Who knows when you'll want another 220 tool?
Maybe add some GFCI breakers to the new panel for the shop circuits.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

Mike wrote:

I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?

Most likely your building codes will dictate that the dryer has to be on
its own "dedicated" circuit.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Mike" wrote

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop?

Probably not "branch off" ... the dyer is most likely on a dedicated
circuit, depending upon the requirements of your city code/NEC, but there is
nothing to stop you from unplugging the dryer and plugging in the saw,
providing you have the right plug for the saw.

Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp 220v circuit?

Absolutely... as long as the motor is wired for 220/240v operation.

The 50A circuit breaker is there for the sole protection of the insulation
on the wiring of the branch circuit, and not for the saw's protection. The
saw should have it's own internal thermal protection.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Mike" wrote in message
...
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?


Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the
outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw,
stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered
into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the
same circuit.

Be certain to run the proper gauge wire. You can run your 220 volt saw on a
200 amp circuit if you want. A decent saw should have it's won over load
protection built in. The circuit breaker regardless of rating is strictly
intended to protect the wiring in your house.

Getting any traffic today? ;~)

Leon wrote:



Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at the
outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet saw,
stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife entered
into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will run on the
same circuit.

Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Nova" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:



Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at
the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet
saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife
entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will
run on the same circuit.

Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)

That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative. You have
to ask yourself if it's a good law. If it is, you should consider the wisdom
of circumventing it for whatever your reasons. If it isn't, you should work
toward having it revoked or revised so it becomes reasonable.

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.

What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.

As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to
be related.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"MikeWhy" wrote in message
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets
code. It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a
claim, the insurance company might find that the non-compliant
condition was causative.

What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in
case they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd
probably start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring
easily.
As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it
has to be related.

Put a sign over the outlets: "Dryer 1" and "Dryer 2."

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such things,
the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code. It might
escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.

What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.

As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has to
be related.



Any wiring I do in my house is a vast improvement on the original, which
in some cases, leads me to believe a previous owner was trying to invoke
an insurance claim or get rid of a divorced spouse.

My work will meet or exceed code, in any case,
especially some of the goofy stuff they require in TN.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply

On Sun, 15 Mar 2009 09:09:15 -0700 (PDT), Mike wrote:

I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?
Run a disconnect. It is a separate switched fuse or breaker box,
connected directly to the main buss. From there you can run an
"expansion panel"

Or remove one of the 220 brekers and replace it with the largest you
can get and wire the "expansion panel" to that breaker, installing a
breaker for the original 220 volt load in that panel.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code.
It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the
insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was
causative.

What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.

You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the little
things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to require a
building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection? Who gets to
decide? Everyone for themselves?

As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has
to be related.

Were we talking about keeping the bushes trimmed, or were we talking about
the electrical work in the home?

MikeWhy wrote:


You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the
little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law,
to require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup
inspection? Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves?


I agree that requiring an inspection is a good law. The permit is
required as the fee pays for the inspection. In my area a licensed
electrician is not required for a single residence when the homeowner
does the work.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

On Mar 15, 9:09*am, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full

The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician?
Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker
box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider.

It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just
some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get
your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit
required, usually.

"Nova" wrote in message
...
Leon wrote:



Ok or not according to code, I did. I tapped into the dryer circuit at
the outlet and added a 220 outlet about 18" over. I can run my cabinet
saw, stationary 15" planer or my 4.5hp Laguna band saw while the dryer is
running. I did not intend to run both at the same time but my wife
entered into the equation one day and inadvertently proved that both will
run on the same circuit.

Knock, knock, knock... "THIS IS THE OUTLET POLICE, OPEN UP." ;-)


Yeah I know, but I "think" a home owner can do what he wants, although he
will probably have to make it right if he plans on selling the house. If I
move I simply plan to remove the extra outlet.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
That's not quite how it works. Where there are laws governing such
things, the buyer will have the house inspected to be sure it meets code.
It might escape notice; it might not. Or, in the event of a claim, the
insurance company might find that the non-compliant condition was
causative.

What buyer? Do you have people inspecting your house all the time in case
they want to buy? Seems to me, if you are going to sell you'd probably
start dismantling the shop anyway and can remove wiring easily.

As for the insurance claim, something has to go wrong first. Then it has
to be related.


From what I understand, if the wiring was the cause and you personally did
the wiring the insurance co. still has to pay up. This would not be the
case however if they found that you intentionally make the wiring
modification to burn your house down.

Similar to car insurance, if you run a red light cause a wreck and get
ticketed they still repair your car.

IIRC that is how my agent explained it to me when I told him that I added an
outlet during a reevaluation of my coverage. They are only concerned about
major wiring changes to the breaker box. They want to insure that there are
no unprotected circuits.

Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician
friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire
waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a
sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools!



Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full, so
adding a new 220v breaker really isn't an option. So, now I'm
wondering about tying into an existing 220v circuit.

There are two 220v circuits: a 30 amp for the air conditioner, and a
50 amp for the dryer. I don't think that using the air conditioner
circuit would be a good idea, especially in the summer. But, the dryer
circuit looks like a good possibility - assuming that we don't run the
dryer at the same time as the table saw. I was really surprised to
find that the dryer circuit was 50 amps - how much power does a dryer
really pull?

So the question is, is it OK to branch off of the dryer circuit and
run it out to the shop? Would it be OK to run a table saw on a 50 amp
220v circuit?

On 15-Mar-2009, whit3rd wrote:

On Mar 15, 9:09*am, Mike wrote:
I've been looking into getting a new table saw, and since I only have
110v in my shop, I've limited my choices to contractor and hybrid
saws. I started wondering about the possibility of pulling 220v into
the shop and did some poking around in my breaker box. My circuit box
has the old style 'pushmatic' breakers and is completely full

The building trades are available, why not ask an electrician?
Probably, if you dislike the 'old style' breakers, a new breaker
box (or even an upgraded service) would be an option to consider.

It doesn't take a full work day to replace an existing box, just
some prudence and skills, and a licensed electrician can get
your situation sorted relatively easily. Building permit
required, usually.

Back in Nov. I did just that. It cost me about $375 for a new panel,
breakers, plus a 12ft run for my 220v space heater. It took about
half a day. The electrician was happy to get the work and I was
happy to have someone else do it. Now I've got two additional
110 runs and room for 5 (or 2 plus 1) more in my box -- just in case I
want to expand and/or upgrade.

On Mar 15, 7:43*pm, Anon Ymous wrote:
Pushmatic breakers? Probably from the 50's or 60's. FWIW, my electrician
friend who likes to go overboard on everything says they are a fire
waiting to happen. I'd go with a new, upgraded breaker panel with a
sub-panel in the shop. Then you can go out and buy some BIG tools!

Replacing the main breaker box at this time isn't an option, unless I
want to skip getting a new saw, then there is no point to this little
exercise! (well, except for having a new, possibly safer main breaker
box)

At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the
shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop
and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp
breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run
to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw,
and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the
shop. Any major problems with this plan? I've looked at the cable that
currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not
labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require
any changes inside the main breaker box?

Just as a disclaimer, I would have everything checked out with an
electrician and so on, at this point I'm just trying to determine if
this plan is feasible so I have a rough idea of the cost.

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
You don't say. We talk about honesty here, and pride ourselves in the
little things, some of them largely inconsequential. Is it a good law, to
require a building permit, licensed electricians, and followup inspection?
Who gets to decide? Everyone for themselves?

The code is written as a safety guide and tries to consider every possible
bad scenario. It is still possible to do certain things safely, but not
according to the code.

I'm in favor of building permits and plans that meet codes, but some are
kind of silly. A friend built a log cabin style house. He has a loft. If
he calls it a bedroom, it is not allowed as it is and changes must be made.
As long as he called it a seating area loft, it was OK'd and CO was issued.

Should a permit be issued and a licensed electrician install a receptacle
and have in inspected? Sure, every town will need to hire a dozen more
inspectors. There are a lot of idiots out there. Some years ago I saw a
basement of a fairly new home being finished. The owner was going to add
some receptacles and was using lamp cord to daisy chain four of them. I
pointed it out to the wife and she was going to have it changed. The
people that need inspection the most are not going to get it.

The house next door is my "new" (second) shop. I wanted to
discontinued the power from the city source and service the new shop
from my home, via subpanel. I contacted an electrician and described
my plans and asked if he would do the specialty work.

I did all the rough labor and had all other items, needed for job
completion, ready for the electrician. The electrician did all the
connections, after he inspected my labor work. Some of his work
included disconnecting breakers for a few lines of specific use &
tools from the garage & old shop and have those transferred to the new
shop service, The material supplies were maybe $400 to $500 and the
electrician charged me $45. It took him about an hour, we had a nice
chat, and I feel safe and secure with the outcome. I'm certain his
family enjoyed the several jars of home-made blackberry jelly and fig
jam I gave him, also.

Sonny

Sonny wrote:

I'm certain his family enjoyed the several jars of home-made
blackberry jelly and fig jam I gave him, also.

Anything else you need done?

--
Morris Dovey
DeSoto Solar
DeSoto, Iowa USA
http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/

[...snip...]

At this point I'm really leaning towards putting a sub-panel in the
shop. I want to relocate the wire running to the dryer out to the shop
and use it as the feeder cable. The new sub panel would have a 50 amp
breaker for a main disconnect, a 30 amp breaker feeding new wire run
to the dryer, a 20 amp breaker feeding new wire to run the table saw,
and possibly a few 110v circuits for various outlets throughout the
shop. Any major problems with this plan?


I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.

In my case I had an electrician replace my old fuse box with a modern
200 amp panel about 15 years back. In my ignorance, I didn't specify
that we should spend a few extra dollars for a panel with plenty of
expansion room.

Since the house is older, I have added a lot of new circuits over the
years, often to reduce the load on the old wiring or to add outside
lights, dedicated circuits for things like the refrigerator, washer,
microwave, etc.

Anyway, I quickly maxed out the panel. When I ripped down my old
garage/utility room and replaced it with a shop worthy space, I got
the biggest Siemens type panel I could (Siemens breakers are widely
available and relatively inexpensive), took that old panel and put it
in the garage as a subpanel. It is nearly full now.

I've looked at the cable that
currently feeds the dryer, it is about 3/4" thick, round, grey and not
labeled - how best to identify it for sure? Would this plan require
any changes inside the main breaker box?

You could open up the outlet box the dryer plugs into and check out
the wires themselves.

"Jim Weisgram" wrote:

I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.

Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24
(12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch
breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S.

Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch
breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub
panel.

Buy what ever brand of equipment that is popular in your area.

A 12/24 panel will provide all the shop capacity you will need for a
typical home shop including an additional 2P-50A for a 5HP air
compressor if you need one.

The above based on many years in the electrical business designing
electrical distribution systems and selling the above equipment.

YMMV.

Lew

On Mar 16, 4:39*pm, "Lew Hodgett" wrote:
"Jim Weisgram" wrote:
I think it is a good plan, except you might consider getting a
subpanel with more expansion room, so that you don't have to go back
in a few years and increase the size of the subpanel.

Lowest cost solution is to install a 125 MLO(Main lug only) 12/24
(12-1" or 24-1/2") panel with a 2P-60A main CB kit, a 2P-50A branch
breaker for the dryer and a 2P-30A breaker for the T/S.

Feed the new sub panel from the existing 2P-50A branch
breaker(existing dryer circuit) and move the dryer wiring to the sub
panel.

I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug
is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does
not have a neutral wire. So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use
this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at
work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as
dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.

Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker
box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common
and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to
disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main
panel and connect the new line to that breaker.

"Mike" wrote:

I spent some time looking at the existing dryer line - the dryer plug
is a 3 prong plug, which has 2 hot wires, and one ground - but does
not have a neutral wire.
snip

NBD.

The existing main panel will have L1, L2, N & Gnd.

Pull the N & G from the existing pnl.

Pull L1 & L2 from the existing 2P-50 presently used to feed dryer.

You now feed dryer from new sub pnl.

N & G will also come from sub pnl..

Not sure about your area, but usually when you work on something, you
have to bring it up to current code.

Probably means you will need to replace existing dryer receptacle with
a 4 wire unit and replace the dryer plug to match.

Sounds like the dryer is old enough it may not require any 120V
service.

Lew





So it doesn't look like I'd be able to use
this line to feed my new sub-panel. An electrician I spoke with at
work told me that this setup is common for large appliances such as
dryers - 2 hot wires, 1 ground and no common.

Now it looks like I will have to pull new wire from the main breaker
box out to the shop - this new line would have 2 hot wires, 1 common
and 1 ground. Does that sound correct? If so, then I would want to
disconnect the existing dryer line from the 50 amp breaker in the main
panel and connect the new line to that breaker.

"MikeWhy" wrote:

Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.

This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can find
nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim, except a
finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down. Stupid
doesn't count.

I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated
before saying "They'd pay".

If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it.

-- Doug

"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message
...
"MikeWhy" wrote:

Or, in the event of a claim, the insurance
company might find that the non-compliant condition was causative.

This myth persists. I've been over my Texas Homeowners policy and can
find
nothing in it that would let the insurance company deny such a claim,
except a
finding that I modified the wiring to deliberately burn the house down.
Stupid
doesn't count.

I've talked to two claims adjusters on the subject. Neither one hesitated
before saying "They'd pay".

If someone has better information, I'd love to hear it.

I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't help
but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would take
the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.

"MikeWhy" wrote in message
...
"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message


I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't
help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would
take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.



Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners
doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind.

Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that
would be a different matter.

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:55:11 -0500, "Leon"
wrote:


"MikeWhy" wrote in message
.. .
"Douglas Johnson" wrote in message


I will say this. First, thanks; I learned something. Second... I can't
help but point at AIG and say, yeah, against all logic and morals, I would
take the bailout, too, to mend something I did of my own
stupidity/hubris/ignorance/imprudence/clumsiness.



Take heart that the comparison is not really a fair one. Most home owners
doing their own wiring are not knowing throwing caution to the wind.

Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.

Now if you knew that what you were doing was going to cause problems, that
would be a different matter.

Right, it would have to be intentional (i.e. arson) for a claim to be
denied.

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:



Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.



Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull. Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.

--

-Mike-

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:



Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.



Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.

No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
"Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
house was a perfect example.

Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.

It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
"professionals" care about is cost and time.

On Mar 17, 11:49*pm, krw wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow



wrote:
On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. *The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.

Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. *"Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... *sorry, but that is just pure bull.

No it really isn't. *Residential electrical work is quite simple.
"Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. *My previous
house was a perfect example.

Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. *Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.

It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. *Using the best materials
because the difference isn't significant does matter. *All many
"professionals" care about is cost and time.

Yup. The seasoned smart ones can indeed cut corners in clever fashion.
Those guys are dangerous and plentiful.

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:



Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.



Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.

No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
"Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
house was a perfect example.

Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding
more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job
properly. I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but
often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by
any real deficency in complying with code. If your house is a perfect
example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician.
If it's done by code, then it's done right. Maybe not the way you would do
it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.


Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.

It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
"professionals" care about is cost and time.

Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by
itself. Did it pass code inspection? If so, then unless you have a
crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials. What
does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also
be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information.

Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
rather than factual, objective critique.

Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.

--

-Mike-

Mike Marlow wrote:
....
... but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.
....
... that denegrade others) ...

OK, pedant that I am, once is an accident, twice is simply wrong...

The word you're looking for is "denigrate"...

--

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:52:39 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:49:14 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:38:13 -0400, Mike Marlow
wrote:

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:05:04 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:



Most will do a better job than a licensed electrician. The electrical
inspector I had when I built my garage told me that homeowners did a
much better job than the average electrician, primarily because it is
theirs, they have more time, and tend to overbuild to compensate for
any lack of knowledge.



Holy cow - I can't believe I read that. "Most will do a better job than a
licensed electrician"... sorry, but that is just pure bull.

No it really isn't. Residential electrical work is quite simple.
"Professionals" often do stupid things to cut corners. My previous
house was a perfect example.

Agreed that residential wiring is quite simple, but I think I'm responding
more to the implied notion that most electricians don't or can't do the job
properly.

Don't. They all likely can, but are under too much pressure to get it
done quickly (cheaply).

I also agree that some sub contractors will cut corners, but
often that is defined more by the way owners wish things were done, than by
any real deficency in complying with code.

"Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock
behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light
fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors.
Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real
deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real
deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel
(in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them
all, and more, done by "professional" electricians.

If your house is a perfect
example, then your local inspector is as much to blame as any electrician.

An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He
can't afford to, for his $25.

If it's done by code, then it's done right.

"done by code" "inspected to code"

Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection.

Maybe not the way you would do
it yourself, but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.

It wasn't a matter of not being done the way I would do it. It was
damned dangerous (my MIL was getting shocked off the drier because its
case was wired to 120V).

Over building
has nothing to do with doing it the right way. Overbuilders think more is
better when they have no clue what is required in the first place.

It certainly does have a *lot* to do with it. Skimping on materials
("forgetting" boxes, etc.) isn't good. Using the best materials
because the difference isn't significant does matter. All many
"professionals" care about is cost and time.

Skimping on materials is a subjective statement when it stands all by
itself.

"Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not
"subjective".

Did it pass code inspection?

Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults?
Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them
tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How
do you think they know how to do that?

If so, then unless you have a
crooked inspector, it seems hard to imagine skimping on materials.

Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want
something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all
possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a
200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple.
Sure, it takes time and some amount of work.


What
does using the best materials mean? It could mean a lot, but it could also
be very subjective. Can't tell from the limited information.

$2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire,
rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads
across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is
that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional"
(the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they
often do.

Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
rather than factual, objective critique.

I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a
twitchy knee. Electrician?

Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.

There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There
are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for
most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better
job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do
it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more
time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 09:08:55 -0500, dpb cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:

Mike Marlow wrote:
...
... but that does not justify denegrading the work of another.
...
... that denegrade others) ...

OK, pedant that I am, once is an accident, twice is simply wrong...

The word you're looking for is "denigrate"...

Duly noted.

Sure do hate getting caught at spelling errors...
--

-Mike-

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 18:09:21 -0500, krw cast forth these pearls of
wisdom...:



"Forgetting" wiring boxes is a real deficiency. Channeling sheetrock
behind fixtures across studs is a deficiency. Directly wiring light
fixtures (no box) is a deficiency, whether it's indoors or outdoors.
Wiring the red wire to neutral in an entrance panel is a real
deficiency. Bonding neutral and ground in a sub-panel is a real
deficiency. Reversing *every* hot and neutral out of this sub-panel
(in the outlet box) is a real deficiency. Yes, I've corrected them
all, and more, done by "professional" electricians.

You've outlined an impressive list of problems but that in no way
represents the trade. Not to mention that I've seen worse done by
homeowners.



An inspector can't inspect every connection and every outlet. He
can't afford to, for his $25.

Everything you mentioned above damned sure should have been caught by an
inspector. I don't know how they inspect where you live but those would
never have passed around here.


If it's done by code, then it's done right.

"done by code" "inspected to code"

Obviously, the above wasn't "done by code", but it passed inspection.

No - it was pencil whipped.




"Forgetting" boxes (stated in the paragraph you quoted) is not
"subjective".

Nor is the list you posted common.


Did it pass code inspection?

Do you *really* believe an inspection will catch all faults?
Electricins know *exactly* what they can get away with. I've had them
tell me how to get the inspector to ignore what I want them to. How
do you think they know how to do that?

I sure as hell do believe an inspector will find those problems. I've had
tons of inspections and have a pretty good idea what inspectors around here
look at.



Stom imagining a perfect world. It doesn't exist. If you want
something done right you're better of doing it yourself, if at all
possible. Electrical work is simple (work, but simple). Wiring a
200V circuit for a saw is usually simple. A sub-panel is simple.
Sure, it takes time and some amount of work.

No perfect world - the real world.




$2 outlets, rather than $.29 outlets, for instance. Copper wire,
rather than aluminum. A generous number of breakers. Splitting loads
across circuits. Some of that is subjective, some not. The point is
that you can always do the subjective better than a "professional"
(the point of the threadlet) and even the objective better than they
often do.

I can accept your statement about the outlets but your statement about the
aluminum wire, coupled with your other finds, is making this very hard to
believe. Your inspector passed aluminum wiring?


Happens to hit a pet peeve of mine - broad brush statements (especially
those that denegrade others) that all too often are based on preferences
rather than factual, objective critique.

I stated a few of the issues in my first article. Seems you have a
twitchy knee. Electrician?

Nope. But, I have done a bunch of wiring on the side.


Many times homeowners feel overkill is factually better because it builds
in some protections, or affords greater flexibilities. Many times this
belief is based on a limited knowledge they have of the particular task.
While this can instill a certain confidence in the homeowner, it does not
mean that other ways are somehow less adequate.

There isn't a lot of knowledge needed to do residential wiring. There
are some tricks but they're generally time-savers; less important for
most homeowners. There is no reason a homeowner can't to a far better
job than the average "professional". There is no reason he can't do
it better than *any* "professional". It certainly will take more
time, though no more money, and he'll get what he wants.

I agree that a homeowner can easily do the job. Better than the
professional? Don't know why you'd feel that way. I've never seen any
professional work that compares to your claims. I can agree that the
homeowner can do as well, but the better part is a hard swallow.

You've quoted a list of very extreme findings and frankly, they're hard to
believe. Unless you're saying you came across these things individually
over a period of time, that is. I'm not even sure a "professional" was at
fault here. These really sound more like the handiwork of a
self-proclaimed electrician, or a homeowner.


--

-Mike-