Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure
how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 10:58�am, jtpr wrote:
I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. �I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. �This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. �This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. �When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. �This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. �But when I use the TS the breaker pops. �This is new electrical as of 1 year. �I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle �a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. �I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim both are powering on at the exact same time, the high current draw is too much. can you put the saw on one breaker and the dust collector on a different circuit. table saws live better on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 10:58*am, jtpr wrote:
I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. Also, what else is using that line? |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 9:58*am, jtpr wrote:
I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim Use an amp meter to see if it pulls to much and something is wrong. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 11:05*am, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim both are powering on at the exact same time, the high current draw is too much. can you put the saw on one breaker and the dust collector on a different circuit. table saws live better on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. I could do that, but then I couldn't use the vac switch. -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 11:14*am, Gus wrote:
On Mar 9, 10:58*am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. Also, what else is using that line? Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using the line, I just power on one tool at a time. How hard is it to change the breaker? Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 11:26*am, Nova wrote:
Gus wrote: On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. 13 amps for the saw and about the same for 1.5 HP dust collector. Typically a 110 volt auto-switch is rated for 15 amps or less. *Also check the current rating of the switch before you burn it out. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA So could there be something amiss with the DC as it blows a 15 amp breaker? -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpryan wrote:
On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus wrote: On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. Also, what else is using that line? Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using the line, I just power on one tool at a time. How hard is it to change the breaker? Almost trivial. 0. Remove breaker panel cover. 1. Turn off the target breaker. 2. Remove the wire by unscrewing the connector. 3. Lever out the old breaker (look at the new breaker for the technique) 4. Insert the new breaker - push it down really hard 5. Re-connect the previously disconnected wire. Tighten the screw really well. 6. Turn on the new breaker. 7. Replace panel cover. Alternatively, you might try a radio controlled on-off switch. The kind that allows you to turn on a lamp from across the room. Attach the remote control to the table saw. Plug your jig saw (or a lamp) into the switch. Start the saw, wait a sec, push the button to turn on the jig saw/lamp, which, in turn, will activate the dust collector. What you're trying to do here is avoid two high-current motors from starting at the same time. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 11:58*am, jtpr wrote:
I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim Too much starting current. Wire them up so that the two items (both 115 volt?) are on different 15 amp circuits. It may take a bit of (safe) jiggery-pokery for the vacuum switch on one tool to start up the electrcity to the other tool (the dust collector motor which is wired to a different supply. I have exactly this set up, with a 230 volt table saw and then an arrangement to start up a 115 volt vacuum dust collector, which is not yet installed! Right now I can plug in a 115 volt window fan that then starts 'automatically' when the 230 volt bench saw is running. Naturally the 230 volt and the 115 volt supplies are on different circuits/breakers. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 12:16*pm, stan wrote:
On Mar 9, 11:58*am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim Too much starting current. Wire them up so that the two items (both 115 volt?) are on different 15 amp circuits. It may take a bit of (safe) jiggery-pokery for the vacuum switch on one tool to start up the electrcity to the other tool (the dust collector motor which is wired to a different supply. I have exactly this set up, with a 230 volt table saw and then an arrangement to start up a 115 volt vacuum dust collector, which is not yet installed! Right now I can plug in a 115 volt window fan that then starts 'automatically' when the 230 volt bench saw is running. Naturally the 230 volt and the 115 volt supplies are on different circuits/breakers.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - How did you do that? There is only one "input" on the switch. -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 08:36:45 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan
wrote: So could there be something amiss with the DC as it blows a 15 amp breaker? Immediately, or after it runs for a few seconds? What does the motor dataplate list for amperage at 120v? A DC is typically harder starting than a TC because of the rotary inertia of the impeller. That will extend the DC's startup current inrush for a longer time as compared to the TC. That's why manufacturers of most DC's recommend a limit on number of starts per hour. Residential type circuit breakers are not usually instantaneous trip and will tolerate a considerable overload for a short period - the higher the overload, the shorter the period. So the breaker you have should tolerate the startup "spike". But, If the DC is hard enough to start and the running current is close enough to the breaker rating, the starting inrush could last long enough to trip the breaker. 1.5 HP is getting pretty close to the limit for a 120v/15a circuit even for a high efficiency motor. And a 120v/20a circuit is definitely too small for a 1.5HP DC and a 13amp TS. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
If you read the above posts carefully, I think you'll see that it isn't
a good idea to change the breaker without increasing the wire size, since you are really pushing that 12 ga. wire. You didn't say how long the run from the main disconnect to the wall receptacle is. The longer the run, the bigger the voltage drop to the tools, particularly in Power-up mode. I suggest that, to make sleeping at night easier, you get that electrician back, replace the 12 ga wire with 10 ga, and THEN go to to 30 amp breaker. If you DO consider going that way, anothe option is to consider having them bring 220 to that point. Your saw, and maybe your DC may be able to be rewired to run on 220. If so, you won't have to replace the wires (you mentioned that they are yellow, (which is wrong,anyway)so, as long as there's a gound wire, you have enough leads to do the job. Pete Stanaitis --------------------------------------------------------------- jtpryan wrote: On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus wrote: On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. Also, what else is using that line? Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. I had the electrician wire it for this when we renovated the house. Nothing else would be using the line, I just power on one tool at a time. How hard is it to change the breaker? Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpr wrote:
.... I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. ... The easiest fix is to return the one you bought for the remote starting switch... http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx...s=5855&pcs=fam Alternatively, find one of the plug-in types similar to what you have but that has a start delay built in as well as stopping to eliminate the simultaneous starting surge or one that senses motor current from one circuit but allows the tool to be on another. If the one you have plugs into the saw outlet and the tool to be controlled plugs into it, it would be more difficult to modify. There are just current sensors w/ start relays that serve the other function. My only recommendation on breaker changeout would be that should have run 30A service for shop circuit instead of 20A, but by Code that would be 10ga, not 12ga. A longer time-delay is probably possible to find, but I'd venture it might be more expensive than the remote start option above. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
"jtpr" wrote in message ... I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router. Both coming on at the same time is a problem. In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address situations like this but I would still be cautious. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
Leon wrote:
Something sounds like it could be wrong, I use a 1.5hp collector that recommends a 20 amp circuit, on 15 amp circuit along with a 15 amp router. Both coming on at the same time is a problem. In answer to your question, there are slow blow breakers to address situations like this but I would still be cautious. There are also quite a few circuit breakers from a number of different manufacturers that have been recalled due to failure to trip when overloaded. Federal Pacific is one example: http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
add a second breaker for the saw or dust collector.
have the auto switch trip a contactor, basically a large high capacity relaY. END OF PROBLEM:) |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 2:59*pm, spaco wrote:
If you read the above posts carefully, I think you'll see that it isn't a good idea to change the breaker without increasing the wire size, since you are really pushing that 12 ga. wire. *You didn't say how long the run from the main disconnect to the wall receptacle is. *The longer the run, the bigger the voltage drop to the tools, particularly in Power-up mode. * * I suggest that, to make sleeping at night easier, you get that electrician back, replace the 12 ga wire with 10 ga, and THEN go to to 30 amp breaker. * *If you DO consider going that way, anothe option is to consider having them bring 220 to that point. * Your saw, and maybe your DC may be able to be rewired to run on 220. *If so, you won't have to replace the wires (you mentioned that they are yellow, (which is wrong,anyway)so, as long as there's a gound wire, you have enough leads to do the job. Pete Stanaitis --------------------------------------------------------------- jtpryan wrote: On Mar 9, 11:14 am, Gus wrote: On Mar 9, 10:58 am, jtpr wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. *I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. *This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. *This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. *When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. *This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. *But when I use the TS the breaker pops. *This is new electrical as of 1 year. *I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle *a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. *I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. You can use a "slow trip" breaker - but be very aware of what you are doing and the ramifications thereof. This saw draws 13 A at 120 VAC. Many (most) tools have a higher draw when starting than when running. Also, make darn sure that your "20 amp circuit" is actually WIRED for 20 AMP and not 15. Just something to check. Also, what else is using that line? Yes, it is wired 20 Amp, 12 gauge yellow. *I had the electrician wire it for this when we renovated the house. *Nothing else would be using the line, I just power on one tool at a time. How hard is it to change the breaker? Jim OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2 cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing? -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpryan wrote:
.... and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in there to handle the initial spike. ... ... Is there something I'm missing? Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A. It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be considered. Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual switches. -- |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
"jtpr" wrote in message ... I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial start up surge. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpryan wrote:
OK, I would agree with that on the surface. But bear with me a minute and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in there to handle the initial spike. The point of this entire exercise is to have the DC running as little as possible and only as needed. So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the absolute max, probably less, and that's it. I do this as a hobby, not production, so my typical style is to turn on the TS, make 1 or 2 cuts, and turn it off. Is there something I'm missing? Why not compromise and replace the breaker with the "slo-blo" variety? They are built to accept temporary surges without going all crazy. One variety is "High Magnetic Circuit Breaker" which will withstand temporary loads of up to 20x its rated capacity. Here's one: http://www.siscobreakers.com/browsep.../HOM120HM.html |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
Leon wrote:
.... I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a second or two after the tool that is plugged into ... It has a time delay. -- |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan
wrote: So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the absolute max, probably less, and that's it. It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the wiring. But that's a pretty big if. If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners insurance to refuse to pay the claim. Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that supported over 60 amps. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
"dpb" wrote in message ... Leon wrote: ... I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a second or two after the tool that is plugged into ... It has a time delay. -- Yeah, about a second or two. I was wondering how they implement it. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 07:58:49 -0700 (PDT), jtpr
wrote: I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim You need a higher amp circuit, or plug DC and tabesaw into different circuits, or switch to 220v. My lights used to momentarily dim as I powered on the DC, but switching from 110v to 220v solved that. Plus, there are other benefits to 220v. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
On Mar 9, 7:58*pm, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan wrote: So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the absolute max, probably less, and that's it. It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the wiring. But that's a pretty big if. If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners insurance to refuse to pay the claim. Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that supported over 60 amps. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me. No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying to reach. I'll see how the breaker change goes... -Jim |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
dpb wrote:
jtpryan wrote: ... and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in there to handle the initial spike. ... ... Is there something I'm missing? Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A. It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be considered. Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual switches. -- The problem is not the current needed to trip the 30 amp breaker. If the current is there it will trip the breaker. The problem is the 29 amps that don't trip the 30 amp breaker. That is where the excess heat comes from to start the fire. Dave |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
Leon wrote:
"jtpr" wrote in message ... I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial start up surge. Most likely a count down circuit of some sort. When the first motor starts so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count down reaches zero and fires the second motor start. Dave |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpryan wrote:
On Mar 9, 7:58 pm, Tom Veatch wrote: On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:39:57 -0700 (PDT), jtpryan wrote: So, that being said, how dangerous is it if I have the 30 in there, fire up the TS and DC for all of maybe 3 min at a time at the absolute max, probably less, and that's it. It may not be dangerous at all. The wire ampacity is based on the temperature rise in the wire at a given current level and the maximum temperature the insulation can withstand without damage. It could be that for brief periods of usage and enough down time to allow the wires to cool, you'd never exceed the temperature limits of the wiring. But that's a pretty big if. If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners insurance to refuse to pay the claim. Incidentally, if the circuit is properly sized for the full load amperage of the motors on the circuit, the starting inrush will not trip a properly functioning breaker. You don't need to size the breakers for the inrush, only the full load running amperage. If you want to size for inrush, look at the motor dataplate and multiply the amperage shown by about 5. Your 13 amp DC would need a breaker that supported over 60 amps. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me. No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying to reach. I'll see how the breaker change goes... -Jim Jim; You shouldn't fear the god of electricity or even insurance. Just have an extremely healthy respect for both. Dave |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
David G. Nagel wrote:
dpb wrote: jtpryan wrote: ... and point out the folly of my logic. Say I put a 30 amp breaker in there to handle the initial spike. ... ... Is there something I'm missing? Yes. 12ga wire isn't rated (by Code) for 30A. It is a _VERY_ bad idea, akin to albeit not as bad as the penny in the bottom of the fuse socket but the overcurrent condition required to trip a 30A breaker on 20A-rated circuit is dangerous and should not be considered. Either find a sequential switch or use something like the remote switch I posted a link to, rearrange to use two circuits and a control suitable for that arrangement, pull 10 ga and upgrade to a 30A circuit or revert to manually starting one and then the other from their respective manual switches. -- The problem is not the current needed to trip the 30 amp breaker. If the current is there it will trip the breaker. The problem is the 29 amps that don't trip the 30 amp breaker. That is where the excess heat comes from to start the fire. I agree. dpb actually suggested a 30A breaker with appropriate #10 wire, but a 30A circuit is also a bad idea. Other than that I agree with dpb's solutions. A good solution is 2 circuits using a relay/contactor as suggested by Bob Haller and dpb. The contactor coil connects to the Woodcraft control. The contactor contacts are in the second circuit that powers the DC. You could connect a time delay relay between the Woodcraft control and the contactor so the DC would start a little later. A time delay relay and contactor could also be connected to start the DC on the same circuit after a short delay. It may be possible to add a time delay relay to the Woodcraft control. All circuit breakers that are used in a house have a time delay trip on overload. If motors are hardwired, a breaker may be larger than the wire size, but it has to be designed properly. -- bud-- |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
jtpryan wrote:
Well, you guys put the fear of God (and the insurance company) in me. No 30 Amp breaker. I will look for the "slo-blo" though. What I don't get is how this product ever works, at least with table saws. I think I have a prettty standard setup for the market they are trying to reach. I'll see how the breaker change goes... -Jim The product is designed for relatively low amperage devices, a sander and a shopvac for example. It's not meant to be used with two 1.5 HP motors. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
"Tom Veatch" wrote in message ... snip If you decide to go that way, and the danger isn't trivial, when the fire department completes its investigation and finds a 30amp breaker feeding 12 ga wire, expect the company that wrote your homeowners insurance to refuse to pay the claim. old wive's tale. you may have trouble getting another policy, especially once you get into the national insurance database, but there's nothing in current policies that states this. snip Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
"David G. Nagel" wrote in message ... I wonder how Festool does that. IIRC my Festool Vac delays starting up a second or two after the tool that is plugged into it gets past its initial start up surge. Most likely a count down circuit of some sort. When the first motor starts so does the timer. When the first motor is up to speed the count down reaches zero and fires the second motor start. Dave It seem the OP's switch should have had this feature to start with. |
Electrical Breaker and dust collector question
Breakers are designed with different trip curves depending on the
application. Breakers designed for resistive loads will trip sooner than one designed to handle motor inrush current. Each manufacturer typically has three or four motor curves. Find a local electrical supply and get a breaker rated for HVAC service. "jtpr" wrote in message ... I have a Delta 1.5 Hp dust collector I bought used, so I'm not sure how old it is. I currently have it plugged into the 20 amp circuit in my shop. I also have a Rigid TS3650 Table Saw, plugged into the same circuit. This works fine if I walk over and turn on the DC then go use the TS. I bought one of those vac switches at Woodcraft the other day. This is the thing you plug your DC into and then a tool. When you power on the tool, the DC comes on. This works fine with my sander, mitre saw, router, etc. But when I use the TS the breaker pops. This is new electrical as of 1 year. I guess my question is does anybody know if there is a kind of breaker that will handle a momentary spike like this or could there be something wrong with my DC that is causing this. I do know that if I try to run the DC on a 15 amp circuit all by itself it will blow the breaker. -Jim |
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