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Default Replacing kitchen floor

Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
cabinets now. That will be a later project.

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?

Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Thanks,
G.S.
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"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?


At the very least, take it down to whatever goes from wall to wall
underneath the cabinets. At that point you can decide if sub floor
reconstruction needs to be done. Redoing a floor just up to existing
cabinets is leaving yourself open to a whole lot of future cursing,
swearing, misery and burning of money.

That is of course unless you're planning on moving soon and don't care that
you'd be passing all the future cursing, swearing, misery and burning of
money onto someone else.


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Default Replacing kitchen floor

Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.

2. Pull the floor trim. Your tile will not have to be cut quite as precisely as it would require if the moldings were not pulled.


3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.

4. Inspect the subfloor to see if any parts need replacing. Now would be a good time to add squeak silencers (screws into the noisy joists).

5. If the subfloor is good stuff, lay 1/4 inch plywood over it and screw it in every 6 inches. Be sure the joints between the new sheets does not fall along the joints between the subfloor.

6. Get on with the tile. Wall to Wall. This way you will not have to fit your new kitchen cabinets to the old footprint

7. Replace the floor moldings and reinstall the old cabinets.

Been there, done that, loved the results.

P D Q

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message ...
Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
cabinets now. That will be a later project.

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?

Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Thanks,
G.S.

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"PDQ" wrote in message
...
Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.


Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built it
becomes a demo project.

Dave in Houston


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Default Replacing kitchen floor

Just went through a similar project and agree with most below, except I
used 1/4 inch cement board as an underlayment over a marginal subfloor.
Results are excellent.

PDQ wrote:
Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.

2. Pull the floor trim. Your tile will not have to be cut quite as precisely as it would require if the moldings were not pulled.


3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.

4. Inspect the subfloor to see if any parts need replacing. Now would be a good time to add squeak silencers (screws into the noisy joists).

5. If the subfloor is good stuff, lay 1/4 inch plywood over it and screw it in every 6 inches. Be sure the joints between the new sheets does not fall along the joints between the subfloor.

6. Get on with the tile. Wall to Wall. This way you will not have to fit your new kitchen cabinets to the old footprint

7. Replace the floor moldings and reinstall the old cabinets.

Been there, done that, loved the results.

P D Q

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message ...
Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
cabinets now. That will be a later project.

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?

Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Thanks,
G.S.



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PDQ wrote:

3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.


Had a house with linoleum over concrete slab in the entry way. Tile guy
did a rough sanding on the linoleum and tiled over it. I was
skeptical, but never a problem in the ten years I lived in the house.
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"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message ...
PDQ wrote:

3. Peel off all the vinyl. don't want to lay tile over vinyl.


Had a house with linoleum over concrete slab in the entry way. Tile guy
did a rough sanding on the linoleum and tiled over it. I was
skeptical, but never a problem in the ten years I lived in the house.


Tile over concrete is not like tile over wood when it comes to movement.

In the former, if the adhesion is good, no problem.
In the latter, it really does not matter, the tile will eventually wander.
Maybe sooner than later.

P D Q
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Dave in Houston wrote:
"PDQ" wrote in message
...
Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.


Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built it
becomes a demo project.


Even if they're not site-built, some cabinetmakers use separate leveled
bases under the boxes.
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"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
Dave in Houston wrote:
"PDQ" wrote in message
...
Thew easiest way out of this quandary is to

1. Pull the base cabinets.


Perhaps easier said than done. If the cabinets are sight-built it
becomes a demo project.


Even if they're not site-built, some cabinetmakers use separate leveled
bases under the boxes.


If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the "cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.

It is not like the bases have to be structural - all that is needed is a screw or two into the studs at the back of the bases to hold them tight to the wall and the levelers can be amended if the levelness of the floor changes unduly.

P D Q
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Thank all of you for your replies.

It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.

With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(

G.S.


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On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

Thank all of you for your replies.

It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.

With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(

G.S.

If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? If
one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
seam, but i can't find it even today.

I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
baths.
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On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 14:14:28 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?



If you go back on top, with much more thickness, you may not be able
to get the dishwasher back in.

Mike O.
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wrote in message ...
On Mon, 02 Feb 2009 20:15:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

Thank all of you for your replies.

It seems unanimous that to do the job properly I need to remove the
base cabinets. That makes sense and that's what I'll do.

With that said I may combine the later project (new cabinets) with
this project. Will there never be an end to this madness? :-(

G.S.

If you plan to do the cabinets in the next 3-5 years, do them now -
and I'd think twice about using vinyl tile. How big is the kitchen? If
one dimension is 12 feet or less (from cabinet base to wall) I'd go
with ssolid sheet vinyl - and NO seams in the traffic area.
Did my kitchen16 years ago (man how time flies) with edge glued only,
full floating solid vinyl over fresh 3/8" underlay. Mine has one
seam, but i can't find it even today.

I've never had luck with tile floors - particularly in kitchens and
baths.


cla

According to the following I think the OP did not have vinyl in mind. Rather "stone".

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?


P D Q
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PDQ wrote:


If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the "cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.


Are you kidding?
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"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
PDQ wrote:


If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the
"cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.


Are you kidding?


Exactly. Almost w/o exception, the site-built cabinets I've run across
are not individual boxes. Rather, they are frames and side panels attached
to 1x6s on the rear wall which end up supporting the rear of the counter
top. The kitchen drywall becomes the cabinet back.
How do you raise those with major disassembly?
Our answer was usually that we didn't. And, we've laid tile up to the
toe-kicks on base cabinets and cannot remember a single time that the [new]
dishwasher wouldn't go in. The refrigerator space got tile like the rest of
the floor.

Dave in Houston


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"Dave in Houston" wrote in message ...

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
PDQ wrote:


If they cannot be moved and replaced without undue effort the
"cabinetmaker" was not doing the job right.


Are you kidding?


Exactly. Almost w/o exception, the site-built cabinets I've run across
are not individual boxes. Rather, they are frames and side panels attached
to 1x6s on the rear wall which end up supporting the rear of the counter
top. The kitchen drywall becomes the cabinet back.
How do you raise those with major disassembly?
Our answer was usually that we didn't. And, we've laid tile up to the
toe-kicks on base cabinets and cannot remember a single time that the [new]
dishwasher wouldn't go in. The refrigerator space got tile like the rest of
the floor.

Dave in Houston



Catch you both here.

The 1X6 (in my case 1X3) were fixed to the wall by 2 screws. All I had to do was back out the screws and lift the base cabinets out of the way. After the floor was laid to the walls the cabinets were returned to their original location and the screws reinstalled.

Only had to cut out enough of the base of the cabinets for the sink to allow the pipes to properly sit in place. This was the most I had to do to replace the cabinets. My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future consideration when building these cabinets.

P D Q
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PDQ wrote:
My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future consideration when building these cabinets.


That's not what he was thinking of when he built them that way. While
it worked out well for you, most flooring is not run under existing
cabinetry. I installed tile, hardwood, and vinyl professionally for
several years.

Nowadays, most mass-produced cabinets, regardless of the size of the
shop that built them, are built like yours. It's done for shipping,
installation, and parts-standardization on the shop floor reasons. Many
installers might mount them a tad more elaborately than yours are,
especially if the sub floor isn't that level or well-built.

In older, and some new high-end stuff, the newer it is, the higher-end
it will be to see this... it's common to see extremely high quality
cabinetry and built-ins that are either built in place right on site, or
permanently assembled in place. The builders will go to great lengths
to hide fasteners, too.

Some "average quality" stuff installed in very well settled (read
"whacked", not-so level floors) antique homes is much easier to install
on plywood toe-kick bases that are blocked and shimmed level before the
boxes are set. Last summer, I did a small kitchen in a 1740's home that
would have been a nightmare without separate bases. The same house had
3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls that a previous
owner plastered over!
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"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
cabinets now. That will be a later project.

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?

Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Thanks,
G.S.


Almost always new construction these days, the cabinets go in before the
floors. Putting a new floor in now and replacing the cabinets later is not
a big deal. I do suggest that you build the new cabinets taller by the
amount of the thickness of the new floor and if you have a dish washer
extend the tile floor inside that cavity or build up the floor to the new
floor height.
When I have replaced existing kitchen and bath room cabinets and there is a
taller tile floor, I let the toe kick plate hide any gap. The new cabinets
simply set in the same spot that the old cabinets did except I build them
taller by the height of the new floor.




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"B A R R Y" wrote

The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls
that a previous owner plastered over!


Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL

I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife
screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.



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"Lee Michaels" writes:

"B A R R Y" wrote

The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls
that a previous owner plastered over!


Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL

I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife
screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.


I've seen this before too. Dark rooms aren't currently fashionable, so
folks paint the mahog walls to brighten things up. 99% of the public
aren't woodworkers and only see dark walls, not rare mahogany.

scott
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Sounds to me that what you have just described is a perfect scenario for a "French Cleat" and a scribed kick-pad fronting some shims. Of course one must build the cabinets with a tad more depth than the back would require so that vagarities in the wall may be circumvented.

Given the nature of the populace today anybody who builds kitchen cabinetry for the ages is self-delusional.

P D Q

"B A R R Y" wrote in message ...
PDQ wrote:
My cabinetmaker did a fine job of future consideration when building these cabinets.


That's not what he was thinking of when he built them that way. While
it worked out well for you, most flooring is not run under existing
cabinetry. I installed tile, hardwood, and vinyl professionally for
several years.

Nowadays, most mass-produced cabinets, regardless of the size of the
shop that built them, are built like yours. It's done for shipping,
installation, and parts-standardization on the shop floor reasons. Many
installers might mount them a tad more elaborately than yours are,
especially if the sub floor isn't that level or well-built.

In older, and some new high-end stuff, the newer it is, the higher-end
it will be to see this... it's common to see extremely high quality
cabinetry and built-ins that are either built in place right on site, or
permanently assembled in place. The builders will go to great lengths
to hide fasteners, too.

Some "average quality" stuff installed in very well settled (read
"whacked", not-so level floors) antique homes is much easier to install
on plywood toe-kick bases that are blocked and shimmed level before the
boxes are set. Last summer, I did a small kitchen in a 1740's home that
would have been a nightmare without separate bases. The same house had
3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls that a previous
owner plastered over!

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"Leon" wrote in message ...

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
Our 35 year old kitchen floor (sheet vinyl) needs to be replaced. We
have decided to replace it with 12" square tiles. With other
remodeling going on we have decided not to replace the kitchen
cabinets now. That will be a later project.

The floor was installed before the cabinets were and therefore, goes
under the cabinets. My question is should I leave the cabinets in
place, along with the old floor, and put a new subfloor and tile over
the existing floor? Or should I remove the base cabinets old floor
and old subfloor, and put a new subfloor and tile from wall to wall
and reinstall the cabinets?

Is there a web site that shows detailed steps?

Thanks,
G.S.


Almost always new construction these days, the cabinets go in before the
floors. Putting a new floor in now and replacing the cabinets later is not
a big deal. I do suggest that you build the new cabinets taller by the
amount of the thickness of the new floor and if you have a dish washer
extend the tile floor inside that cavity or build up the floor to the new
floor height.
When I have replaced existing kitchen and bath room cabinets and there is a
taller tile floor, I let the toe kick plate hide any gap. The new cabinets
simply set in the same spot that the old cabinets did except I build them
taller by the height of the new floor.



Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q
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"Lee Michaels" wrote in message ...

"B A R R Y" wrote

The same house had 3/4" t&g SOLID MO-HOG (probably Cuban) bathroom walls
that a previous owner plastered over!


Probably could stand the sight of all that beautiful wood! LOL

I have seen that sort of thing many times as well. It is like my wife
screaming every time she sees Nahm painting a nice wood project.




That flower in your garden must be a tree hugger of note. G

P D Q


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" *If the cabinets are sight-built it "

Even worse if built by a blind man

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"PDQ" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Snip




Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q


Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?

What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.

Do you live in the USA?


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"Leon" wrote in message
What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?


I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.

And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
installed before the flooring. Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd build
for my own use, certainly not.





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"Upscale" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you
will
never see?


I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new
cabinets
some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.


While you have valid questions, ther is no problem with putting in a
different arrangement of cabinets. You simply patch in the floor if needed.
The floor will have a match problem however if you uncover unexposed floor
ther is going to present a match problem also.




And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
installed before the flooring.


It is not a good idea to expose a new floor to contractors coming in and
out and dragging equipment across the floor. Fitting in a few cabinets is
no more bother than going around wall corners, door ways, or sizing to a
room, it might add 1% more work but that will be saved in not paying for
floring that will not be used.




Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd
build
for my own use, certainly not.


I suspect you might do it once but the second time around you would most
likely do it the less expensive way.





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On Feb 4, 9:16*am, "Leon" wrote:
"PDQ" wrote in message

...

"Leon" wrote in message

...
Snip



Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. *If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q

Which begs the question, *WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? *It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. *If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?

What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. *You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.

Do you live in the USA?


Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.


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"Leon" wrote in message ...

"PDQ" wrote in message
...

"Leon" wrote in message
...
Snip




Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q


Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?

What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.

Do you live in the USA?



Kanukistan.

Yup, I know what you mean. I once had a fellow laying my floor who, when told it would be nice if he were to start at the feature (Stepped Archway) and lay to the opposite wall, replied "I am a professional, I know what I am doing, but out". Kicked his ass off the lot and dot his boss to supply a new floor guy to fix the mess. 2 days of new guy swearing about the old guy and floor was looking good. Never let it be said that pros always know what they are doing.

BTB: I removed all casings, trim, moldings, and base cabinets before the floor was laid and replaced them afterwards.

That is why DIY any time the job looks like something I can do is my credo.

P D Q
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Upscale wrote:
"Leon" wrote in message
What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?


I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.

And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
installed before the flooring. Just doesn't make any sense. Maybe as a
contractor, get the job done and get out, possibly. For something I'd build
for my own use, certainly not.


Doesn't it depend on the situation? Flooring used to be a major
expense, and it was something that could be resurfaced/refinished.

Now it seems to be something that is changed like lighting fixtures,
whenever a new fad or style comes out, or when the walls are painted.

Seems to me, if someone is putting down linoleum or cardboard
"hardwood," they're not the type of person who's going to care about the
flooring going under the cabinets... or even dishwasher for that matter.

Depends on the customer, doesn't it? We've all had instances where our
trying to convert the customer into someone who respects quality and
craftsmanship the way we do, only comes across, to them, as us trying to
increase the price of the job.



--

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"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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http://mikedrums.com

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wrote in message ...
On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" wrote:
"PDQ" wrote in message

...

"Leon" wrote in message

...
Snip



Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?

At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.

P D Q

Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?

What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.

Do you live in the USA?


Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.

Seems like a "PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. I agree with your thoughts. Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user that the little extra in time and materials will save time and exasperation later on and not force them into a set footprint.

As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and what's out in the open - a little time and no one will be able to see the difference. Besides one never goes smaller.

P D Q
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On Feb 4, 11:17*am, "PDQ" wrote:
wrote in ...

On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" wrote:





"PDQ" wrote in message


...


"Leon" wrote in message


.. .
Snip


Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on the part
of the builder?


At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were installed
before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring laid, I would also
have the cabinets removed and re-installed after the lay.


P D Q


Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and never to be
seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost cutter, one that
makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do you remove all shoe
moldings, base boards, and door sills so that you can put the carpet under
them also?


What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that you will
never see?


Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your cabinets
before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you can find one that
will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.


Do you live in the USA?


Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. *Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. *I ran the
flooring wall to wall. *Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. *White in the
visible area. *And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. *But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. *The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. *$50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. *Big deal. *It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. *Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. *Also no bid deal. *Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. *If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.

Seems like a *"PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. *I agree with your thoughts. *Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user that the little extra in time and materials will save time and exasperation later on and not force them into a set footprint.

As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and what's out in the open - a little time and no one will be able to see the difference. *Besides one never goes smaller.


In my case it was white ceramic tile in the visible area. And gray
tile under some of the cabinet. Not just a little color difference.
Two different colors. I presume the white tile was out of stock when
I went to get more and the gray was there. I did put the gray tiles
in the corner under the lazy susan cabinet. Pretty sure the corner
will always have cabinets over it.





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wrote in message

On Feb 4, 11:17 am, "PDQ" wrote:
wrote in
...

On Feb 4, 9:16 am, "Leon" wrote:





"PDQ" wrote in message


...


"Leon" wrote in message


...
Snip


Why do I get the feeling that this is just a cost cutting move on
the part of the builder?


At no time would I condone any scenario wherein the cabinets were
installed before the finish floor. If I were having new flooring
laid, I would also have the cabinets removed and re-installed after
the lay.


P D Q


Which begs the question, WHY would you want more expensive and
never to be seen flooring to be under your cabinets? It is a cost
cutter, one that makes sense. If you have you home recarpeted, do
you remove all shoe moldings, base boards, and door sills so that
you can put the carpet under them also?


Actually, I pulled the carpets, put them in the garage under my cars, and laid hardwood. Yes, I lifted all the trim (that cheap **** that looks like mahogany) and replaced it with oak. I had carpet laid in my basement and put the moldings on afterwards.


What advantage is there in spending extra money on something that
you will never see?



I know, and that is all thatr matters.

Just for fun, try to find a flooring store that will remove your
cabinets before putting down a new floor. You will be lucky if you
can find one that will actually remove "and" replace shoe molding.


Do you live in the USA?


Back in the mid 1990s I redid the flooring and cabinetry in two
kitchens. Rooms were stripped bare of all cabinets. I ran the
flooring wall to wall. Although in the ceramic tile floor I did use
gray tiles when I needed extras under the cabinets. White in the
visible area. And grout lines were not finished as much under the
cabinets. But the whole floor had the same thickness of tile and
cement backboard. The 25 feet of linear cabinets and the 50 square
feet of tile under the cabinets at $1 per square foot of tile was not
a big deal given the cost of the entire job. $50 extra for tile under
the cabinets. Big deal. It made the installation of the cabinets
more than $50 easier later on. Extra backer board was required too.
Little extra cost too. Also no bid deal. Running from wall to wall
was easier than stopping exactly, exactly at the edge of the
cabinetry. If I was laying tile in one kitchen a week or two a week
the cost would add up more.

Seems like a "PAY ME NOW OR PAY ME LATER" situation. I agree with
your thoughts. Only way to do this is to explain to the end-user
that the little extra in time and materials will save time and
exasperation later on and not force them into a set footprint.

As far a colour differences between what's under the counter and
what's out in the open - a little time and no one will be able to
see the difference. Besides one never goes smaller.


In my case it was white ceramic tile in the visible area. And gray
tile under some of the cabinet. Not just a little color difference.
Two different colors. I presume the white tile was out of stock when
I went to get more and the gray was there. I did put the gray tiles
in the corner under the lazy susan cabinet. Pretty sure the corner
will always have cabinets over it.


Russell, not to get sweaty, just added a few comments to earlier stuff to see if OEquotefix really works. Beyond that, with tile, one does what one must. I have the same problem in my basement where SWMBO wants to pull some of the carpet and install more tile beside the tile that is already there. Ever try to match 20 year old last of the run tile?

That story will have to remain for another time.




P D Q- Hide quoted text -

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P D Q


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Upscale wrote:

I don't agree. Once you go that route, you're locked into the exact
placement of those cabinets. What happens if you want to put in new cabinets
some time in the future? Unlikely they'd be the same size and shape. You'd
be trying to hide areas where you didn't install flooring.


I've never seen a cabinet replacement job that didn't include a new
floor, with the exception of antique wood floors which were going to be
refinished. That's like buying new cabinets and keeping the old counter
tops.

Most folks remodel _kitchens_, not cabinets.

And certainly on a new build, it's much easier to install an entire floor
than to take the time to modify and cut flooring to fit around cabinets
installed before the flooring.


Maybe, maybe not... It depends on the layout, materials, etc...

A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
easier to hide.
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"B A R R Y" wrote in message

A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
easier to hide.


Ok, let's forget the cheap alternatives for a moment. A vinyl floor IMHO, is
relatively cheap in materials, easy to cut and easy to install. Let's go
with tiling, slate tiling for example. Costs more, is more labour intensive
to cut and one would not be as prone to replace it on a whim like you might
do with vinyl.

What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
removed or just tile up to existing cabinets? The disadvantage to tiling
while the cabinets are in place is that there's a whole lot more fitting and
cutting, alterations in the future might mean that slate is not produced
anymore, but money saved on material costs. Or, take out the cabinets, do
the whole floor, spend more on materials, but have an easier install?


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Upscale wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
A large vinyl floor would require a long, straight seam that might end
up in an inopportune place. Fitted around cabinetry, the seams are much
easier to hide.


Ok, let's forget the cheap alternatives for a moment. A vinyl floor IMHO, is
relatively cheap in materials, easy to cut and easy to install. Let's go
with tiling, slate tiling for example. Costs more, is more labour intensive
to cut and one would not be as prone to replace it on a whim like you might
do with vinyl.

What's the consensus there? Do the whole floor after the cabinets are
removed or just tile up to existing cabinets? The disadvantage to tiling
while the cabinets are in place is that there's a whole lot more fitting and
cutting, alterations in the future might mean that slate is not produced
anymore, but money saved on material costs. Or, take out the cabinets, do
the whole floor, spend more on materials, but have an easier install?


The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT
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"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
...
Upscale wrote:



The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT




This is something to consider however I have redone kitchens and have seen
kitchens with added tile to the existing cabinets. 90% of the time the
dishwasher comes out with out problems. You typically accomplish this by
screwing in the front adjustment feet all the way and pulling it out. Once
the front is out the back comes out pretty easily. Tall tiles or thick wood
flooring may make this a bit harder but new home construction basically goes
with the cabinets, then floor/counter top, then the appliances. Typically
the appliances go in last so that they don't mysteriously disappear.


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Leon wrote:
"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
...
Upscale wrote:


The major problem with re-flooring a kitchen with a thick(er) material
around existing cabinets is the flipping dishwasher. DAMHIKT




This is something to consider however I have redone kitchens and have seen
kitchens with added tile to the existing cabinets. 90% of the time the
dishwasher comes out with out problems. You typically accomplish this by
screwing in the front adjustment feet all the way and pulling it out. Once
the front is out the back comes out pretty easily. Tall tiles or thick wood
flooring may make this a bit harder but new home construction basically goes
with the cabinets, then floor/counter top, then the appliances. Typically
the appliances go in last so that they don't mysteriously disappear.


I agree. The situation I had was moving into a house that had the
kitchen floor redone with tile. The dishwasher needed to be replaced
when the issue came up. Even with the front legs screwed all the way
up, it was necessary to loosen the screws from under the cabinet fronts
and pry the counter top loose. This wasn't easy as the counter tops had
also been set in a silicone glue in addition to the screws. The
alternative would have been removing the tiles directly in front of the
dishwasher, but they were a 10" variety that I could find no
replacements for and I knew I would break them in removal. It all
worked out in the end, but my vocabulary was somewhat increased.
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