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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
#2
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Need advice on making flooring
"Wes" wrote in message ... I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, You could vary the width as long as it is consistent within each row of flooring. For example, typical oak strip flooring is made from lower grades of wood where wane, splits, knots and other items would make it difficult to efficiently yield wide clear boards--thus the relatively narrow and short pieces. If your wood is generally wider and clearer than "factory" there is no reason you couldn't go wider within the limitations of how stable the wood is. If it's quarter sawn you could go wider than flat sawn. Regarding milling the tongue and groove, a shaper with a matched set of knives and a power feed would be the quickest and safest way to go. I'd venture that making flooring with a marginally powerful router and feeding by hand would get old real fast! I cannot access the www at the moment to check, but looking at a number of catalogs I didn't find a matched set of flooring bits for a router. Not saying no one offers them, just that I didn't see any listed. Why this type of bit rather than standard tongue and groove? For flooring the tongue is off set towards the bottom so that multiple refinishing can be done before reaching the tongue/nails during sanding. It might be possible to find a set of tongue and groove cutters that could be adjusted to do this but for most the tongue is going to be too thick. Then again, speaking as some of my older associates do, if you're getting old and don't figure on refinishing in your life time it might not be worth the effort, use what you've got. ;~) Note too that solid wood flooring is typically "backed out" which could be done with a vertical bit/cutter. I'm sure other opinions will come in... it is just flooring ya know. ;~) John |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
On Jan 9, 4:54*pm, Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. *I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. *Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? *Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, Wes Wes- Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3 to 10" range. http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or router table (but your router better be a beast) cheers Bob |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
"BobK207" wrote in message ... On Jan 9, 4:54 pm, Wes wrote: I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, Wes Wes- Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3 to 10" range. http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or router table (but your router better be a beast) cheers Bob Personally, I'd go anywhere form 3-6 inch width (plus tongue)... or variable (maintaining the same width in a given course) to best use the stock available. Just about anybody (even Sears) has 1/2" shank T&G sets. I agree, the router better be up to the task. Depending on the size of the floor, it's going to get a workout. Also, I wouldn't get too whipped up over the planing. I'd get it pretty smooth but I'd tweak that by sanding after installation. Ed |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
"Ed Edelenbos" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message ... On Jan 9, 4:54 pm, Wes wrote: Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3 to 10" range. http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or router table (but your router better be a beast) cheers Bob Personally, I'd go anywhere form 3-6 inch width (plus tongue)... or variable (maintaining the same width in a given course) to best use the stock available. Just about anybody (even Sears) has 1/2" shank T&G sets. I agree, the router better be up to the task. Depending on the size of the floor, it's going to get a workout. Also, I wouldn't get too whipped up over the planing. I'd get it pretty smooth but I'd tweak that by sanding after installation. The router I'd use is an Hitachi HV12, I think it is fairly stout. Good point on sanding after installation. I've run a drum sander a few times. So I guess I need to finish the router table come spring. First things first. Thanks, Wes |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy the flooring. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#7
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Need advice on making flooring
My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy
the flooring. I thought this was a woodworking group. :-) -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
-MIKE- wrote:
My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy the flooring. I thought this was a woodworking group. :-) It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-) Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft. Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89 (utility grade) to $3.69 (select). http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049 -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
"Nova" wrote in message ... -MIKE- wrote: My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy the flooring. I thought this was a woodworking group. :-) It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-) Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft. Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89 (utility grade) to $3.69 (select). http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049 -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA Yeah but; a) it's not likely he could get anywhere near that and b) practical schmactical, a lot of woodworking has absolutely *nothing* to do with practical Sometimes the project is the message.... (to paraphrase McLuhan.) Ed |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
Nova wrote:
-MIKE- wrote: My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy the flooring. I thought this was a woodworking group. :-) It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-) Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft. Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89 (utility grade) to $3.69 (select). http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049 I'm being lazy. Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made? -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
-MIKE- wrote:
http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049 I'm being lazy. Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made? Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber defects I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
I'm being lazy. Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made? Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber defects I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile. That's kind of why I jokingly asked if this group was called, "woodworking." Depends on what worthwhile means to each of us. None of us would do any woodworking for ourselves if the only measurement was financial, measuring our time against what else we could be doing with that time to make money. Most of us like the, "hey, I did that!" factor of woodworking. Which leads me to a tangent for which I should probably start another subject line.... At the woodworking show, I saw this computerized carving machine (also at woodcraft). You put a design or scan a picture into the computer and the machine carves it into a piece of wood. I had two immediate thought about the results it produced. 1. It looked like crap. B. How can anyone say "I did that?" -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
-MIKE- wrote:
I'm being lazy. Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made? Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber defects I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile. That's kind of why I jokingly asked if this group was called, "woodworking." Depends on what worthwhile means to each of us. None of us would do any woodworking for ourselves if the only measurement was financial, measuring our time against what else we could be doing with that time to make money. Most of us like the, "hey, I did that!" factor of woodworking. snip I like the "hey, I did that!" factor only when the results look good. When flooring is milled first the major defects are removed from the stock. The lumber is them milled into various lengths. Once milled it is then sorted into categories depending on the quality of each piece with "select" being the best and "utility" being the worse. Once sorted pieces of similar quality and characteristics are bundled together and sold priced accordingly by grade. Unless one has a huge amount of stock to work with, when you mill your own flooring you get whatever the lumber you have on hand yields. It won't be all "select". -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
I like the "hey, I did that!" factor only when the results look good. When flooring is milled first the major defects are removed from the stock. The lumber is them milled into various lengths. Once milled it is then sorted into categories depending on the quality of each piece with "select" being the best and "utility" being the worse. Once sorted pieces of similar quality and characteristics are bundled together and sold priced accordingly by grade. Unless one has a huge amount of stock to work with, when you mill your own flooring you get whatever the lumber you have on hand yields. It won't be all "select". Yes, I see what you're saying. It all depends on what you're going for. I've seen some gorgeous floors made from old, recycled barn board that was all knotting and full of worm holes and beat up to Hades. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#15
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Need advice on making flooring
At the end of the day you can purchase flooring a
good bit cheaper than attempting to make any real quantity on your own. It might appear to be easy but hand feeding alone will be a real shop stopper on producing decent flooring. When you start talking about several hundred feet of flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are basic routers. You didn't mention the amount of flooring you plan on making. Wes wrote: I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Need advice on making flooring
"Pat Barber" wrote in message When you start talking about several hundred feet of flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are basic routers. You've got a point there. Hell, with a reasonably small room, say 10'x10' and using 3" wide wood for example on the floor, you'd be routing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 400' feet of wood. That's a whole lot of effort and time even before the wood is laid. Of course, there would be a considerable amount of pride involved with undertaking such an effort, that is *if* it turned out to be a half decent job. |
#17
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Need advice on making flooring
I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do
"both" sides of the board. 3" X 40 boards = 120" Sooooo 800 linear feet running through a router by hand would not be a great deal of satisfaction. I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some flooring. Upscale wrote: "Pat Barber" wrote in message When you start talking about several hundred feet of flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are basic routers. You've got a point there. Hell, with a reasonably small room, say 10'x10' and using 3" wide wood for example on the floor, you'd be routing somewhere in the neighbourhood of 400' feet of wood. That's a whole lot of effort and time even before the wood is laid. Of course, there would be a considerable amount of pride involved with undertaking such an effort, that is *if* it turned out to be a half decent job. |
#18
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Need advice on making flooring
"Pat Barber" wrote in message I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do "both" sides of the board. You're right. Obviously, I've never made floor boards. |
#19
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Need advice on making flooring
"Pat Barber" wrote in message ... I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do "both" sides of the board. 3" X 40 boards = 120" Sooooo 800 linear feet running through a router by hand would not be a great deal of satisfaction. I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some flooring. But one person's task is another's recreation. Ed |
#20
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Need advice on making flooring
On Jan 12, 1:20*pm, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote:
I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some flooring. But one person's task is another's recreation. Only until you have to have the bits replaced or if they are good ones, resharpened. IIRC, Pat Warner said (excuse me if I get this wrong!) that the average router bit will go about 250' before sharpening. Now... think about 1" thick HARD maple that has been drying for 8 years. Think how hard that stuff must be. And at one inch thick, I'll bet you don't get far without a resharpening. The of course, since you are going with such thick material it is an excellent idea to relieve the back with some grooves to help keep it in check when it moves. How many more bits would that burn up? Looking around, just buying the male/female bits could be a few hundred bucks. If you really want to make your own, go to your local flooring store and check out their profiles, then take into consideration the thickness of your material. You can get an idea of what you need to do from a quality floor manufacturer/supplier. Robert |
#21
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Need advice on making flooring
On Jan 12, 5:25*pm, "
wrote: On Jan 12, 1:20*pm, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote: I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some flooring. But one person's task is another's recreation. Only until you have to have the bits replaced or if they are good ones, resharpened. IIRC, Pat Warner said (excuse me if I get this wrong!) that the average router bit will go about 250' before sharpening. Now... think about 1" thick HARD maple that has been drying for 8 years. *Think how hard that stuff must be. *And at one inch thick, I'll bet you don't get far without a resharpening. The of course, since you are going with such thick material it is an excellent idea to relieve the back with some grooves to help keep it in check when it moves. *How many more bits would that burn up? Looking around, just buying the male/female bits could be a few hundred bucks. If you really want to make your own, go to your local flooring store and check out their profiles, then take into consideration the thickness of your material. *You can get an idea of what you need to do from a quality floor manufacturer/supplier. Robert Well put, Robert. My Royce-Ayr rep drops off these cool catalogues with all kinds of industrial tooling devices. Some of the tools designed for flooring companies are serious, and I mean serious money. Those kind of customers don't buy tools because they are black and green and are reviewed by toolophiles in niche-market magazines. It happens often enough that the "I can do that" syndrome rears its ugly little head, and little thought goes into the fact that a $ 30.00 Freud profile routerbit CAN make a similar edge like a $4500.00 head on a 30 HP moulder/sticker.. it just won't make more than 50 feet of the stuff. I have seen a 12' foot slab of oak with a nice profile on one end of the board and a major burn on the other end. You can haul garbage with a SmartForTwo, just not very much of it. |
#22
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Need advice on making flooring
Pat Barber wrote:
At the end of the day you can purchase flooring a good bit cheaper than attempting to make any real quantity on your own. If he has the wood, he could possibly pay a local millwork shop to machine it for him. I wouldn't do it with a router table, either... G |
#23
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Need advice on making flooring
"Robatoy" wrote Well put, Robert. My Royce-Ayr rep drops off these cool catalogues with all kinds of industrial tooling devices. Some of the tools designed for flooring companies are serious, and I mean serious money. Those kind of customers don't buy tools because they are black and green and are reviewed by toolophiles in niche-market magazines. It happens often enough that the "I can do that" syndrome rears its ugly little head, and little thought goes into the fact that a $ 30.00 Freud profile routerbit CAN make a similar edge like a $4500.00 head on a 30 HP moulder/sticker.. it just won't make more than 50 feet of the stuff. I have seen a 12' foot slab of oak with a nice profile on one end of the board and a major burn on the other end. You can haul garbage with a SmartForTwo, just not very much of it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Reminds me of an experience I had many years ago. I used to make custom waterbeds. This was at a time when they were quite popular, so there was a lot of different models available. There was this one model that had lots of curved edges with some fancy moulding types profiles on all the edges. And it all fit together with slots and became a giant planter, greenhouse type of thing. You hung plants all over it. I got a client who wanted me to duplicate that monster with some modifications. I also happened to get a tour of the factory that made these things. What an eye opening, sobering experience that was for me. They had all these machines that did a single function. You needed a big slot, this machine did it. They used numerous machine to make this one bed. Each machine cost from $21,000 to $45,000. And this was over 35 years ago! So those were pretty cheap prices compared to now. They literally walked around and fed their big 2 X 12 stock to these machines. They could manufacture the whole bed in less than an hour. And most of that time was carring the board around to the various machines. I figured it would take me at least three weeks, busting my ass from morning till night, to duplicate this task. And that was an optimistic estimate. So you had a well financed and equipped factory dedicated to making one model of this bed. And then you had my very modest basement shop. I quickly decided that I would find something that I could do well and leave the big fancy stuff to the factories. And if I worked for minimum wage, that bed would have costed at least three times what they were selling for. Needless to say, that deal did not happen. |
#24
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Need advice on making flooring
On Jan 12, 8:00*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote: [snipped for brevity] And if I worked for minimum wage, that bed would have costed at least three times what they were selling for. *Needless to say, that deal did not happen. ....and that makes you a whole lot smarter than many. I was told once that the hardest thing is to say no when you have the abilities and tools to do the job, but that the money doesn't make any sense. Many, many years ago, I built a wall unit for somebody. When I was done, I ran the whole project through a spreadsheet and those numbers revealed that I had made a whopping 60 cents per hour. That was 1976... and 60 cents per hour sucked canal water even back then. Suffice it to say, that never happened again. When you're up against the mega-buck mass-producers, it is best to fold and to beat them at a game they're not playing... like custom |
#25
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Need advice on making flooring
Keep in mind that flooring is not a straight toungue and groove operation.
when cutting the tongues, the bottom is undercut by about 1/32" to allow gap-free closure on the exposed face. this applies to both the long and end grain. you also better be sure you can get good, square routing on that hard end grain or you'll have gaps where the end grain meets. It doesn't take much at all to cause this gap. Also, I'm guessing the boards aren't going to be perfectly flat. you need to come up with a way during your milling operation to keep them dead flat against your table (be it router or TS). you could wind up paying extra when you use a contractor to come back and sand the floors flat prior to staining / finishing. *Especially* if he has to sand it on the 45 prior to sanding with the grain due to lips from the milling operation. I've seen this happen. It's tough to save money going this route. I've put down reclaimed wood flooring *once* that had the ends re-milled after being reclaimed. When I die, I will still be able to say that I've done that type of job ONCE. If you go this route, go into it very well researched and educated or you may find yourself in over your head. Best of luck to you "Wes" wrote in message ... I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home. I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the way to go. Am I thinking right? The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than eliminating waste? The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for grooves? I welcome advice, Wes -- "Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller |
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