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Default Need advice on making flooring

I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller
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"Wes" wrote in message
...
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more
years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small
home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove
would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit
other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw
and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,


You could vary the width as long as it is consistent within each row of
flooring. For example, typical oak strip flooring is made from lower grades
of wood where wane, splits, knots and other items would make it difficult to
efficiently yield wide clear boards--thus the relatively narrow and short
pieces. If your wood is generally wider and clearer than "factory" there is
no reason you couldn't go wider within the limitations of how stable the
wood is. If it's quarter sawn you could go wider than flat sawn.

Regarding milling the tongue and groove, a shaper with a matched set of
knives and a power feed would be the quickest and safest way to go. I'd
venture that making flooring with a marginally powerful router and feeding
by hand would get old real fast!

I cannot access the www at the moment to check, but looking at a number of
catalogs I didn't find a matched set of flooring bits for a router. Not
saying no one offers them, just that I didn't see any listed. Why this type
of bit rather than standard tongue and groove? For flooring the tongue is
off set towards the bottom so that multiple refinishing can be done before
reaching the tongue/nails during sanding. It might be possible to find a set
of tongue and groove cutters that could be adjusted to do this but for most
the tongue is going to be too thick. Then again, speaking as some of my
older associates do, if you're getting old and don't figure on refinishing
in your life time it might not be worth the effort, use what you've got. ;~)

Note too that solid wood flooring is typically "backed out" which could be
done with a vertical bit/cutter.

I'm sure other opinions will come in... it is just flooring ya know. ;~)

John




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On Jan 9, 4:54*pm, Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to
use it. *I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the
way to go. *Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? *Is there an upper limit other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,

Wes



Wes-

Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3
to 10" range.

http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html

A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or
router table (but your router better be a beast)

cheers
Bob

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"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 4:54 pm, Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more
years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small
home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and
groove would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit
other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table
saw and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,

Wes



Wes-

Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3
to 10" range.

http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html

A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or
router table (but your router better be a beast)

cheers
Bob


Personally, I'd go anywhere form 3-6 inch width (plus tongue)... or
variable (maintaining the same width in a given course) to best use the
stock available. Just about anybody (even Sears) has 1/2" shank T&G sets.
I agree, the router better be up to the task. Depending on the size of the
floor, it's going to get a workout. Also, I wouldn't get too whipped up
over the planing. I'd get it pretty smooth but I'd tweak that by sanding
after installation.

Ed

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Default Need advice on making flooring

"Ed Edelenbos" wrote:



"BobK207" wrote in message
...
On Jan 9, 4:54 pm, Wes wrote:



Checkout commercially available maple flooring. Widths are in the 3
to 10" range.

http://www.amanatool.com/bits-fv/55400.html

A table saw would be a little tricky..... better way......a shaper or
router table (but your router better be a beast)

cheers
Bob


Personally, I'd go anywhere form 3-6 inch width (plus tongue)... or
variable (maintaining the same width in a given course) to best use the
stock available. Just about anybody (even Sears) has 1/2" shank T&G sets.
I agree, the router better be up to the task. Depending on the size of the
floor, it's going to get a workout. Also, I wouldn't get too whipped up
over the planing. I'd get it pretty smooth but I'd tweak that by sanding
after installation.


The router I'd use is an Hitachi HV12, I think it is fairly stout. Good point on sanding
after installation. I've run a drum sander a few times.

So I guess I need to finish the router table come spring. First things first.

Thanks,

Wes


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Default Need advice on making flooring

Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller


My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy
the flooring.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy
the flooring.


I thought this was a woodworking group. :-)


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

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-MIKE- wrote:
My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy
the flooring.


I thought this was a woodworking group. :-)



It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-)

Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft.
Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89
(utility grade) to $3.69 (select).

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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"Nova" wrote in message
...
-MIKE- wrote:
My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to buy
the flooring.


I thought this was a woodworking group. :-)



It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-)

Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft.
Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89
(utility grade) to $3.69 (select).

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA


Yeah but;

a) it's not likely he could get anywhere near that

and

b) practical schmactical, a lot of woodworking has absolutely *nothing* to
do with practical

Sometimes the project is the message.... (to paraphrase McLuhan.)

Ed

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Nova wrote:
-MIKE- wrote:
My advise would be to sell the lumber and use the money you get to
buy the flooring.


I thought this was a woodworking group. :-)



It is but it's usually (okay sometimes) a practical woodworking group. ;-)

Locally 4/4 hard maple is selling for $4.80/bd ft.
Lumber Liquidator lists their 3/4" unfinished maple flooring for $0.89
(utility grade) to $3.69 (select).

http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049


I'm being lazy.
Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply


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-MIKE- wrote:


http://www.lumberliquidators.com/cat...gory;274600049



I'm being lazy.
Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made?



Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can
sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill
the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber defects
I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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I'm being lazy.
Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made?



Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can
sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill
the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber defects
I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile.


That's kind of why I jokingly asked if this group was called, "woodworking."

Depends on what worthwhile means to each of us. None of us would do any
woodworking for ourselves if the only measurement was financial,
measuring our time against what else we could be doing with that time to
make money.

Most of us like the, "hey, I did that!" factor of woodworking. Which
leads me to a tangent for which I should probably start another subject
line....

At the woodworking show, I saw this computerized carving machine (also
at woodcraft). You put a design or scan a picture into the computer and
the machine carves it into a piece of wood. I had two immediate thought
about the results it produced.
1. It looked like crap.
B. How can anyone say "I did that?"


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

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-MIKE- wrote:

I'm being lazy.
Are you saying he'll get more for selling it and buying ready made?



Probable not, but when you consider the difference between what he can
sell the lumber for verses the cost of the flooring, the time to mill
the lumber, the probable loss due to warpage/twisting and lumber
defects I don't think milling the lumber to flooring would be worthwhile.


That's kind of why I jokingly asked if this group was called,
"woodworking."

Depends on what worthwhile means to each of us. None of us would do any
woodworking for ourselves if the only measurement was financial,
measuring our time against what else we could be doing with that time to
make money.

Most of us like the, "hey, I did that!" factor of woodworking.


snip

I like the "hey, I did that!" factor only when the results look good.

When flooring is milled first the major defects are removed from the
stock. The lumber is them milled into various lengths. Once milled it
is then sorted into categories depending on the quality of each piece
with "select" being the best and "utility" being the worse. Once sorted
pieces of similar quality and characteristics are bundled together and
sold priced accordingly by grade. Unless one has a huge amount of stock
to work with, when you mill your own flooring you get whatever the
lumber you have on hand yields. It won't be all "select".


--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

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I like the "hey, I did that!" factor only when the results look good.

When flooring is milled first the major defects are removed from the
stock. The lumber is them milled into various lengths. Once milled it
is then sorted into categories depending on the quality of each piece
with "select" being the best and "utility" being the worse. Once sorted
pieces of similar quality and characteristics are bundled together and
sold priced accordingly by grade. Unless one has a huge amount of stock
to work with, when you mill your own flooring you get whatever the
lumber you have on hand yields. It won't be all "select".


Yes, I see what you're saying.
It all depends on what you're going for.
I've seen some gorgeous floors made from old, recycled barn board that
was all knotting and full of worm holes and beat up to Hades.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
http://mikedrums.com

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At the end of the day you can purchase flooring a
good bit cheaper than attempting to make any real
quantity on your own.

It might appear to be easy but hand feeding alone
will be a real shop stopper on producing decent flooring.

When you start talking about several hundred feet of
flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are
basic routers.

You didn't mention the amount of flooring you plan on
making.


Wes wrote:
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw and dado for
grooves?



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"Pat Barber" wrote in message
When you start talking about several hundred feet of
flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are
basic routers.


You've got a point there. Hell, with a reasonably small room, say 10'x10'
and using 3" wide wood for example on the floor, you'd be routing somewhere
in the neighbourhood of 400' feet of wood. That's a whole lot of effort and
time even before the wood is laid.

Of course, there would be a considerable amount of pride involved with
undertaking such an effort, that is *if* it turned out to be a half decent
job.


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I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do
"both" sides of the board.

3" X 40 boards = 120"

Sooooo 800 linear feet running through a router by
hand would not be a great deal of satisfaction.

I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some
flooring.

Upscale wrote:
"Pat Barber" wrote in message
When you start talking about several hundred feet of
flooring, router bits are not up to the task nor are
basic routers.


You've got a point there. Hell, with a reasonably small room, say 10'x10'
and using 3" wide wood for example on the floor, you'd be routing somewhere
in the neighbourhood of 400' feet of wood. That's a whole lot of effort and
time even before the wood is laid.

Of course, there would be a considerable amount of pride involved with
undertaking such an effort, that is *if* it turned out to be a half decent
job.


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"Pat Barber" wrote in message
I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do
"both" sides of the board.


You're right. Obviously, I've never made floor boards.


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"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
I don't think 400' would do it cause you got to do
"both" sides of the board.

3" X 40 boards = 120"

Sooooo 800 linear feet running through a router by
hand would not be a great deal of satisfaction.

I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some
flooring.


But one person's task is another's recreation.

Ed

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On Jan 12, 1:20*pm, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote:

I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some
flooring.


But one person's task is another's recreation.


Only until you have to have the bits replaced or if they are good
ones, resharpened.

IIRC, Pat Warner said (excuse me if I get this wrong!) that the
average router bit will go about 250' before sharpening.

Now... think about 1" thick HARD maple that has been drying for 8
years. Think how hard that stuff must be. And at one inch thick,
I'll bet you don't get far without a resharpening.

The of course, since you are going with such thick material it is an
excellent idea to relieve the back with some grooves to help keep it
in check when it moves. How many more bits would that burn up?
Looking around, just buying the male/female bits could be a few
hundred bucks.

If you really want to make your own, go to your local flooring store
and check out their profiles, then take into consideration the
thickness of your material. You can get an idea of what you need to
do from a quality floor manufacturer/supplier.

Robert





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On Jan 12, 5:25*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 12, 1:20*pm, "Ed Edelenbos" wrote:

I would throw my pride out the window and go buy some
flooring.


But one person's task is another's recreation.


Only until you have to have the bits replaced or if they are good
ones, resharpened.

IIRC, Pat Warner said (excuse me if I get this wrong!) that the
average router bit will go about 250' before sharpening.

Now... think about 1" thick HARD maple that has been drying for 8
years. *Think how hard that stuff must be. *And at one inch thick,
I'll bet you don't get far without a resharpening.

The of course, since you are going with such thick material it is an
excellent idea to relieve the back with some grooves to help keep it
in check when it moves. *How many more bits would that burn up?
Looking around, just buying the male/female bits could be a few
hundred bucks.

If you really want to make your own, go to your local flooring store
and check out their profiles, then take into consideration the
thickness of your material. *You can get an idea of what you need to
do from a quality floor manufacturer/supplier.

Robert


Well put, Robert. My Royce-Ayr rep drops off these cool catalogues
with all kinds of industrial tooling devices. Some of the tools
designed for flooring companies are serious, and I mean serious money.
Those kind of customers don't buy tools because they are black and
green and are reviewed by toolophiles in niche-market magazines.

It happens often enough that the "I can do that" syndrome rears its
ugly little head, and little thought goes into the fact that a $ 30.00
Freud profile routerbit CAN make a similar edge like a $4500.00 head
on a 30 HP moulder/sticker.. it just won't make more than 50 feet of
the stuff.
I have seen a 12' foot slab of oak with a nice profile on one end of
the board and a major burn on the other end.

You can haul garbage with a SmartForTwo, just not very much of it.
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Pat Barber wrote:
At the end of the day you can purchase flooring a
good bit cheaper than attempting to make any real
quantity on your own.


If he has the wood, he could possibly pay a local millwork shop to
machine it for him.

I wouldn't do it with a router table, either... G
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"Robatoy" wrote

Well put, Robert. My Royce-Ayr rep drops off these cool catalogues
with all kinds of industrial tooling devices. Some of the tools
designed for flooring companies are serious, and I mean serious money.
Those kind of customers don't buy tools because they are black and
green and are reviewed by toolophiles in niche-market magazines.

It happens often enough that the "I can do that" syndrome rears its
ugly little head, and little thought goes into the fact that a $ 30.00
Freud profile routerbit CAN make a similar edge like a $4500.00 head
on a 30 HP moulder/sticker.. it just won't make more than 50 feet of
the stuff.
I have seen a 12' foot slab of oak with a nice profile on one end of
the board and a major burn on the other end.

You can haul garbage with a SmartForTwo, just not very much of it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Reminds me of an experience I had many years ago. I used to make custom
waterbeds. This was at a time when they were quite popular, so there was a
lot of different models available. There was this one model that had lots
of curved edges with some fancy moulding types profiles on all the edges.
And it all fit together with slots and became a giant planter, greenhouse
type of thing. You hung plants all over it.

I got a client who wanted me to duplicate that monster with some
modifications. I also happened to get a tour of the factory that made these
things. What an eye opening, sobering experience that was for me.

They had all these machines that did a single function. You needed a big
slot, this machine did it. They used numerous machine to make this one bed.
Each machine cost from $21,000 to $45,000. And this was over 35 years ago!
So those were pretty cheap prices compared to now.

They literally walked around and fed their big 2 X 12 stock to these
machines. They could manufacture the whole bed in less than an hour. And
most of that time was carring the board around to the various machines. I
figured it would take me at least three weeks, busting my ass from morning
till night, to duplicate this task. And that was an optimistic estimate.

So you had a well financed and equipped factory dedicated to making one
model of this bed. And then you had my very modest basement shop. I
quickly decided that I would find something that I could do well and leave
the big fancy stuff to the factories.

And if I worked for minimum wage, that bed would have costed at least three
times what they were selling for. Needless to say, that deal did not
happen.



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On Jan 12, 8:00*pm, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:
[snipped for brevity]

And if I worked for minimum wage, that bed would have costed at least three
times what they were selling for. *Needless to say, that deal did not
happen.


....and that makes you a whole lot smarter than many. I was told once
that the hardest thing is to say no when you have the abilities and
tools to do the job, but that the money doesn't make any sense. Many,
many years ago, I built a wall unit for somebody. When I was done, I
ran the whole project through a spreadsheet and those numbers revealed
that I had made a whopping 60 cents per hour. That was 1976... and 60
cents per hour sucked canal water even back then.

Suffice it to say, that never happened again.

When you're up against the mega-buck mass-producers, it is best to
fold and to beat them at a game they're not playing... like custom
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Keep in mind that flooring is not a straight toungue and groove operation.
when cutting the tongues, the bottom is undercut by about 1/32" to allow
gap-free closure on the exposed face. this applies to both the long and end
grain. you also better be sure you can get good, square routing on that
hard end grain or you'll have gaps where the end grain meets. It doesn't
take much at all to cause this gap. Also, I'm guessing the boards aren't
going to be perfectly flat. you need to come up with a way during your
milling operation to keep them dead flat against your table (be it router or
TS). you could wind up paying extra when you use a contractor to come back
and sand the floors flat prior to staining / finishing. *Especially* if he
has to sand it on the 45 prior to sanding with the grain due to lips from
the milling operation. I've seen this happen. It's tough to save money
going this route.

I've put down reclaimed wood flooring *once* that had the ends re-milled
after being reclaimed. When I die, I will still be able to say that I've
done that type of job ONCE.

If you go this route, go into it very well researched and educated or you
may find yourself in over your head.

Best of luck to you


"Wes" wrote in message
...
I have some ~1" hard maple that has been stacked in my shop for 8 or more
years. I need to
use it. I was thinking of converting it into flooring for my rather small
home.

I'm thinking straight planks would not be a good idea so tounge and groove
would be the
way to go. Am I thinking right?

The next question is how wide to make each board? Is there an upper limit
other than
eliminating waste?

The last question is after planing, do I use a router table or a table saw
and dado for
grooves?

I welcome advice,

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller



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