All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model
display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the
use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident
this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a
reasonably brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to
destroy the can's lid to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

The gel varnish may give you what you want -- test on a piece of scrap.
You might try a natural Danish oil, that will give a low luster, but not
sure how it will interact with your stain. If you use any oil or
penetrating finish, be aware that oak will bleed the finish for quite some
time after application, so make sure you make periodic checks to wipe up
any weeping pores or you will have dried oil beads (happened to somebody
who lives in my neighborhood).



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote:

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a
model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this
product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be
completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to
destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Personally, I would get a pint of boiled linseed oil and a pint of
turpentine and some wiping rags.

Cut BLO with turps per instructions on can and wipe on, wipe off per
instructions.

Johnson's paste wax after BLO/turps dries (20-30 days) is optional.

Have fun.

Lew

On Dec 26, 11:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Decide how the stand will be used and maintained, then tailor your
finish to suit that need. If it is to be dusted and cleaned
frequently, tung oils and their cousins are not the way to go as they
will not fill any pores in the oak. This means that once the fine
dust gets in them over a period of years, you won't get it out.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

Why? With today's modern finishes, I would hate to live on the edge
of difference between some of resin finishes the these days. After
application, I can't tell the difference between a regular long oil
varnish (not talking spar here) and poly after they dry. Usually, the
poly is harder, but not always.

Don't be spooked by those that simply parrot what they hear about the
correct way to finish projects. If you see a nice poly job with the
proper sheen you will be surprised how warm and soft it will feel.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

If this is the oil variety, mind Mark's post above about beading and
drying. That particular stain can easily take a couple of weeks to
completely dry if you are in humid conditions. Wiping, brushing or
padding a finish could be your undoing as the solvents in the finish
will lift the stain colorants up into the finish.

And since the above types of application are usually performed with
thinned finishes raising the VOCs and making it "hotter", it can
easily remove your stain job.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

If this is a model stand for viewing of your work, why not use
lacquer? This is the traditional finish for furniture, and all kinds
of other mill work. You can buy the lacquer in rattle cans and spray
it on, and second coat in under 1/2 hour. Build the finish where you
want it. Allow it to dry hard for a couple of weeks and you can knock
down the gloss to the desired reflectivity with scotch brite pads.

Unless you buy upper end steel wool, I wouldn't use sw unless you
clean it first in naptha or something similar. Sw is treated from the
factory with different kinds of waste oil to keep it from rusting;
this can end up on your project.

An alternative is to buy some poly semi gloss in rattle cans. This is
easy to spray. You have to wait a long time for recoats, but the long
working makes it easy to control the finish application.

When I need a quick finish on a small project, I use rattle cans, and
have found them to be very satisfactory.

Spraying would keep you from lifting the finish as well. However, if
you use poly spray unless you wait until the stain is completely dry,
you can still see some of the beading Mark referenced, even when
sprayed. With lacquer, the finish will dry so quickly that it doesn't
bead the stain unless you really LOAD up the material when spraying.

Good luck!

Robert

wrote in message
Spraying would keep you from lifting the finish as well. However, if
you use poly spray unless you wait until the stain is completely dry,

And to the OP, keep in mind your conditions if you're going to spray. Being
the idiot I am, one time I used a can of blue spray paint in my living room
to paint some cast iron legs for a work bench. It wasn't until I was
finished I noticed that most everything in my living room had a bluish tinge
to it.

On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:57:37 -0600, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

First, be aware that most "Tung Oil" finishes don't use tung oil, or
have so little tung oil in them that part is irrelevant. Your product
could be a wiping varnish, an oil finish, or an oil/varnish blend.

Second, the open pores of oak, as others have mentioned, will leak the
oil back until that oil has fully cured.

There is no one "best way" to finish. There are tradeoffs in terms of
time and effort. For my taste, using an oil or oil/varnish finish is
about as easy as it gets. But it doesn't look as good after a period
of time, and you may find you want to reapply the oil now and again.

So, my preference is to apply a topcoat, often after using an oil or
sometimes a stain. I use stain less often than many will, but usually
I want something to bring out the grain.

If you want a very smooth surface, you can flood the suface with your
chosen oil finish and wet sand it with some 400 grit wet/dry
sandpaper. The dust/oil slurry will fill the pores. And should take
care of the "leak back" problem. Here's a write up someone did on that
approach:
http://www.masterartisan.com/article...oth+Oil+Finish

You can get a low lustre on a poly surface, or any other topcoat,
including your gel varnish (if formulated to be a "gloss" finish), by
"rubbing out" after the finish has cured, using a grey scotchbrite
type pad or wet/dry sandpaper.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/rubbingout.htm.

Jim

n Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:57:37 -0600, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug


I'm surprised no one meantioned shellac. Shellac seals and dries very
quickly. It shows off the grain too. Applying several coats doesn't
take long either. I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. You can
lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats.
In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although,
give it a month before any furniture wax.

Otoe

On Dec 27, 9:35*am, Otoe wrote:

I'm surprised no one mentioned shellac. *Shellac seals and dries very
quickly. *It shows off the grain too. *Applying several coats doesn't
take long either. *I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. *You can
lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats.
*In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although,
give it a month before any furniture wax.

I like shellac as well, though I'm not sure if I'd use it as my
finish. For a model stand, it'd probably be fine, but I like
something that is a little more impervious.

I like to stain, apply a thin coat of shellac to seal the pores and
act as a barrier coat, then use a satin finish brushing lacquer. Lots
of warmth, no bleed out in porous woods, and it's a fast finish.

R

On Dec 26, 9:57*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the
wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin
coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit
wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as
smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call
me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL!

On Dec 27, 9:35*am, Otoe wrote:

I'm surprised no one meantioned shellac. *Shellac seals and dries very
quickly. *It shows off the grain too. *Applying several coats doesn't
take long either. *I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. *You can
lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats.
*In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although,
give it a month before any furniture wax.

First choice for red oak (or cheap #2 white pine) is amber
shellac.

Jimmy Mac wrote:
On Dec 26, 9:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the
wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin
coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit
wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as
smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call
me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL!
Was it C-less that called it min-whacks? I know he loved polyurinestain.
:-)
j4

On Dec 27, 3:32*pm, jo4hn wrote:
Jimmy Mac wrote:
On Dec 26, 9:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the
wood. *Then (and whooda thunkut) *Minwax Poly Urethane. *Several thin
coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit
wet or dry paper with a mist of water. *This will be a high coat as
smooth as glass and hard as a rock. *Just a suggestion since the call
me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. * LOL!

Was it C-less that called it min-whacks? *I know he loved polyurinestain.

Everyone,

Many Thanks for the great suggestions - there just is nothing better than to benefit from
the experience of others.

Of all the recommendations, the shellac and spray lacquer finish sounds best to me.

The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have very open grain -
bigger than pores, IMO.

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail?

What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid
or specifically try to use?

Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely
better than mine, which are none.

Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray
lacquer.

Again - my sincerest Thanks to everyone for their valuable comments, which will be
retained for future reference.

Regards,

Doug


Jimmy Mac wrote:

On Dec 26, 9:57*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the
wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin
coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit
wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as
smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call
me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:09:13 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have
very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO.

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a
finger nail?

I haven't tried it myself, but others have used pumice mixed with shellac
to fill pores. Apparently the pumice becomes transparent.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

On Dec 28, 10:09 am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail?

No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the
substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have
picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and
large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will
not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you
use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that
you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish
method.

Make no mistake, the shellac or any other finish will help mitigate
the texture of the pores, but it won't go away by a long shot. If the
project isn't too big, apply the shellac, let it sit for a couple of
days, then sand it smooth. Apply a couple more coats in the same
fashion, sanding all coats with at least 220 grit quality sandpaper,
cleaning with mineral spirits in between sandings. Carefully sand
with the grain.

Resist the temptation so sand with anything higher than 320 grit.
With finishes that resolvate (dissolve into each other rather than
simply adhering) there simply isn't any need to do so. If you finish
"balls" or "rolls" up under your sandpaper (wrapped around a block,
right?) you need to give your finish more cure time. The lacquer will
not melt into the shellac, so make the last coat of shellac as smooth
as you can.

Apply the lacquer over the final shellac coat. I wouldn't put less
than three coats of lacquer over this. You will be surprised how well
the shellac/lacquer combo will hold up.

What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid
or specifically try to use?

Personally, I have had great experiences with Deft lacquer for years.
It sprays well and has a good quality nozzle on the can so it will lay
out a nice finish. After using spray can, if there is material left
in the can remember to turn it upside down and spray out the remaining
material in the pickup tube and the nozzle. It will spray almost pure
air when the nozzle is clean.

I have also used the newer Rustoleum clear lacquers and the best
aspect of them is they dry really hard for a lacquer. The coats build
nicely and it is easy to apply.

I would personally stay away from the water borne stuff in a spray can
as no one I know has had any luck with them yet. I read (although I
haven't used them) that there are problems with the applicators, with
recoating, and with witness lines.

Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely
better than mine, which are none.

You are in pretty good hands around here. There are many that do
finishing here (like me) professionally as part of their business.
Read through the archives of the group and you will find all kinds of
methods and experiences on finishing.

Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray
lacquer.

I wouldn't tackle brushing lacquer unless you have a really small
project. Brushing lacquer requires patience, the right equipment and
the right technique. I have used a lot of brushing lacquer, but only
if it is a smooth, featureless surface like a door. Even then, I pad
it as brushing a couple of larger pieces out was a real pain.

I still remember my first brushing of lacquer as it was a disaster. I
was used to "long oils" and paints that gave you plenty of time to go
over any brush strokes or holidays left behind.

Not so with the lacquer. For me, it was like brushing on warm taffy.
The first few brush strokes were great, after that it was all down
hill. Everything started to dry immediately, any attempts at repairs
"on the fly" were disaster, and the brush became a clump of semi dried
resins. I found out at that time any brush strokes, holidays, or bugs
can only be sanded out after a proper curing time.

After I learned how easy lacquer was to spray, I have never brushed
anything since that time (25 years?).

Good luck on your project and let us know how it came out.

Robert

wrote

No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the
substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have
picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and
large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will
not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you
use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that
you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish
method.
snip

Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 10/22/08
KarlC@ (the obvious)

"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote in
:

Everyone,

Many Thanks for the great suggestions - there just is nothing better
than to benefit from the experience of others.

Of all the recommendations, the shellac and spray lacquer finish
sounds best to me.

The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have
very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO.

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch
a finger nail?

What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there
products to avoid or specifically try to use?

Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences -
which are infinitely better than mine, which are none.

Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer
- however no spray lacquer.

Again - my sincerest Thanks to everyone for their valuable comments,
which will be retained for future reference.

Regards,

Doug
snip

some years ago I made a simple footstool of red oak, and to fill the
grgain I used Behlen's Pore-O-Pac (and the solvent to adjust the
consistency). I got the idea from someone here ...

That sure did that job, but it also made the wood much lighter in color.
I probably should have adjusted the pigment somehow, but wasn't
experienced in doing things like that (still am inexperienced). After
that, shellac and polyurethane. That has been quite durable over the
just about 8 years in use. Photo's on abpw.

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

wrote

No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the
substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have
picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and
large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will
not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you
use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that
you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish
method.
snip

Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive!


If you use an oil based finish the easiest, old-fashioned, low-tech solution
to filling the pores in red oak or other open pored woods is plaster of
Paris... After the surface is hand planed/sanded apply the plaster of Paris,
let it dry, sand it off, vacuum and tack rag the surface, and then apply
your oil based finish. The plaster of Paris becomes transparent with the
oil.

Note that this will not work for filling gouges and other defects as the
plaster will show up if it's too thick. For grain filling and minor surface
defects it works just fine. Obviously, try some samples to get a feel for
this before doing, say, the top of a large table. ;~)

If you are using stain play with the plaster before and after staining to
see what works with your combination of wood, stain and finish.

I find this is a lot faster than applying myriad thick coats of finish and
sanding them smooth as the plaster dries fast and sands quickly.

John

On Dec 28, 12:09*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:09:13 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have
very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO.

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a
finger nail?

I haven't tried it myself, but others have used pumice mixed with shellac
to fill pores. *Apparently the pumice becomes transparent.

Used in French polishing, turns the wood surface to a fine slurry
which
mixes with the shellac and fills the pores. Just as easy to wet sand
between coats with 320.

Robert and others,

Thanks again very much for the great advice.

Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon.

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested
by Otoe.

Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get underway tomorrow.

Certainly realize that most if not all procedures can sound much easier than what it
actually takes for a correct / proper execution and the desired end results.

You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat
in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience.

Will report back when done - or have gone astray.

Regards,

Doug


" wrote:

On Dec 28, 10:09 am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail?

No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the
substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have
picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and
large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will
not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you
use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that
you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish
method.

Make no mistake, the shellac or any other finish will help mitigate
the texture of the pores, but it won't go away by a long shot. If the
project isn't too big, apply the shellac, let it sit for a couple of
days, then sand it smooth. Apply a couple more coats in the same
fashion, sanding all coats with at least 220 grit quality sandpaper,
cleaning with mineral spirits in between sandings. Carefully sand
with the grain.

Resist the temptation so sand with anything higher than 320 grit.
With finishes that resolvate (dissolve into each other rather than
simply adhering) there simply isn't any need to do so. If you finish
"balls" or "rolls" up under your sandpaper (wrapped around a block,
right?) you need to give your finish more cure time. The lacquer will
not melt into the shellac, so make the last coat of shellac as smooth
as you can.

Apply the lacquer over the final shellac coat. I wouldn't put less
than three coats of lacquer over this. You will be surprised how well
the shellac/lacquer combo will hold up.

What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid
or specifically try to use?

Personally, I have had great experiences with Deft lacquer for years.
It sprays well and has a good quality nozzle on the can so it will lay
out a nice finish. After using spray can, if there is material left
in the can remember to turn it upside down and spray out the remaining
material in the pickup tube and the nozzle. It will spray almost pure
air when the nozzle is clean.

I have also used the newer Rustoleum clear lacquers and the best
aspect of them is they dry really hard for a lacquer. The coats build
nicely and it is easy to apply.

I would personally stay away from the water borne stuff in a spray can
as no one I know has had any luck with them yet. I read (although I
haven't used them) that there are problems with the applicators, with
recoating, and with witness lines.

Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely
better than mine, which are none.

You are in pretty good hands around here. There are many that do
finishing here (like me) professionally as part of their business.
Read through the archives of the group and you will find all kinds of
methods and experiences on finishing.

Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray
lacquer.

I wouldn't tackle brushing lacquer unless you have a really small
project. Brushing lacquer requires patience, the right equipment and
the right technique. I have used a lot of brushing lacquer, but only
if it is a smooth, featureless surface like a door. Even then, I pad
it as brushing a couple of larger pieces out was a real pain.

I still remember my first brushing of lacquer as it was a disaster. I
was used to "long oils" and paints that gave you plenty of time to go
over any brush strokes or holidays left behind.

Not so with the lacquer. For me, it was like brushing on warm taffy.
The first few brush strokes were great, after that it was all down
hill. Everything started to dry immediately, any attempts at repairs
"on the fly" were disaster, and the brush became a clump of semi dried
resins. I found out at that time any brush strokes, holidays, or bugs
can only be sanded out after a proper curing time.

After I learned how easy lacquer was to spray, I have never brushed
anything since that time (25 years?).

Good luck on your project and let us know how it came out.

Robert

"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote in message
...
You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the
can says re-coat
in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of
Experience.

I don't see a need. Mixed fresh from flake and high quality denatured
alcohol, it should set up hard and tack free in about 10 minutes.
(Milliseconds, if you forget to wipe the jar's threads before screwing on
the lid.) It's fully cured when the alcohol evaporates, about an hour at
most for freshly made. Even when using store-bought, toss it if it doesn't
set up hard in 24 hours. Shelf life of shellac is relatively short. Alcohol
is hydrophilic, and soaks in moisture from the air. The moisture interferes
with curing, and can cause the film to dry cloudy. Keep it tightly capped,
and plan to use it up quickly. I mix 3 lb batches, and pour out just what
I'll use that day, and cut it with fresh alcohol. A quart size round
Tupperware is the right size for me. 1.5 lb cut works pretty well for
brushing. 2 lb cut or very slightly thicker when padding.

On Dec 28, 3:21*pm, "Swingman" wrote:

Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive!

LOL!!!

Hey... send me a copy when it's finished!

Robert

On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested
by Otoe.

Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing.
Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a
sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding
sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your
application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut
(that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion.

You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat
in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience.

You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand
giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your
application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray,
your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a
relatively short time.

When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a
warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the
paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny
scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the
hardness I want.

When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually
wait at least a couple of hours before sanding.

If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle
than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush
applied s

But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you
apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/
coats.

You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry
properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too
early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience.

If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand
between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you
sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface,
and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This
sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be
prominently displayed in your final finish coat.

With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't
necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting
out some dust nibs.

Will report back when done - or have gone astray.

Post away!

Robert

"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote:

Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get
underway tomorrow.

I'm no genius when it comes to working with finishes, but the
following work for me:

1) Patience is a virtue.

2) Finish materials are temperature dependant.

If you can't guarantee 70F minimum for at least 3-4 hours (2 before, 2
after applying finish), find something else to do that day.

YMMV.

Lew

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:


Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon.

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2
lb cut as suggested by Otoe.


Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not
good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as
water resistant.

What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold
as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac.

If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two
and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off
about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired.




You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although
the can says re-coat in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE
speaking i.e., Voice of Experience.


Shellac will dry to the touch almost instantly for the first few thin
coats and I've never had to wait more than an hour to recoat unless the
weather is very cold and damp.

But that doesn't mean it's cured. If you try to sand it (lightly! or
you'll melt it!) without waiting at least a week you'll get little gummy
balls of shellac all over your sandpaper.

A very experienced woodworking friend of mine claims that shellac never
quits getting harder. My experience with old furniture seems to support
that.

--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:


Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon.

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2
lb cut as suggested by Otoe.



Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not
good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as
water resistant.

What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold
as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac.

If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two
and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off
about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired.


I find it faster to thin the shellac first and then decant. Once
thinned it usually takes only a day or two for the wax to settle out.

--
Jack Novak
Buffalo, NY - USA

"Nova" wrote in message
...
Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:


Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon.

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2
lb cut as suggested by Otoe.



Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not
good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as
water resistant.

What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold
as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac.

If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two
and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off
about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired.


I find it faster to thin the shellac first and then decant. Once thinned
it usually takes only a day or two for the wax to settle out.

Better still, and faster, just start over with dewaxed flakes.
http://www.shellacshack.com/

Lew Hodgett wrote:

"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote:

Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get
underway tomorrow.

I'm no genius when it comes to working with finishes, but the
following work for me:

1) Patience is a virtue.

2) Finish materials are temperature

and humidity

dependant.


In dry climates, finishes that dry relatively slowly in other climates,
dry quite fast. Higher humidity conditions slow down curing.

In Tucson, I can't follow the directions as far as time between coats or
especially time to wipe off excess finish. If I wait the full instructed
time, the finish becomes so tacky that the wiping rag is pulled apart into
the finish.



If you can't guarantee 70F minimum for at least 3-4 hours (2 before, 2
after applying finish), find something else to do that day.

YMMV.

Lew

--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

All,

Again - many thanks for the valuable advice.

Purchased the SealCoat product and applied the first coat.

We had unusually low humidity (for Houston at least) and temps in the low 70's yesterday -
and as Mark and Larry commented, the first pass was very tacky before finishing the second
pass - may not be the best choice of words - the piece is approx. 8" wide and 17" long
which is in the direction of the grain - so a pass covered about half the width.

Two obviously neophyte questions:

1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface
and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct?

2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the
surface is smooth to the touch.

Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of
SealCoat.

Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is
applied?


Thanks again everyone!

Regards,

Doug



" wrote:

On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested
by Otoe.

Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing.
Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a
sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding
sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your
application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut
(that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion.

You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat
in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience.

You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand
giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your
application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray,
your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a
relatively short time.

When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a
warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the
paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny
scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the
hardness I want.

When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually
wait at least a couple of hours before sanding.

If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle
than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush
applied s

But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you
apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/
coats.

You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry
properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too
early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience.

If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand
between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you
sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface,
and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This
sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be
prominently displayed in your final finish coat.

With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't
necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting
out some dust nibs.

Will report back when done - or have gone astray.

Post away!

Robert

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface
and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct?

2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the
surface is smooth to the touch.

Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of
SealCoat.

Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is
applied?

Work FAST! Shellac dries quickly. Don't tip it off, as you would with
varnish.

The whitish patches may be "blushing", which is embedded moisture. The
second coat of Seal Coat should eliminate it. Was there water in brush?

Get the blush out before applying the lacquer. Don't move to another
step until you've got the current step right.

Thanks Barry.

Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for
Houston.

When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out?

Regards,

Doug


B A R R Y wrote:

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface
and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct?

2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the
surface is smooth to the touch.

Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of
SealCoat.

Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is
applied?

Work FAST! Shellac dries quickly. Don't tip it off, as you would with
varnish.

The whitish patches may be "blushing", which is embedded moisture. The
second coat of Seal Coat should eliminate it. Was there water in brush?

Get the blush out before applying the lacquer. Don't move to another
step until you've got the current step right.

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Thanks Barry.

Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for
Houston.

When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out?

Wipe on & STOP! G

If you keep rubbing, you'll just make a sticky mess.

There isn't much else the white can be other than moisture or debris.
Did you sweat on it? No, I'm not kidding... Drops of sweat blush
lacquer and shellac.

Barry,

Thanks for your reply.

OK - no rubbing in or buffing after application.

No sweat fell on the work piece - although were it anytime other than the few weeks of
cool, low humidity weather we get here that may have been a possibility.

After the application, wiping down, and replacing the lid on the can - apparently some of
the coating dripped onto the work piece - this is where the whitish areas are, in addition
to a small area where the grain is very open.

After sitting for several hours, I buffed the entire surface and the white has noticeably
diminished.

Temps are good and the humidity is down right now - so will apply the second coat - with
no rubbing!

Regards and best wishes for a prosperous New Year!

Doug


B A R R Y wrote:

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Thanks Barry.

Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for
Houston.

When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out?

Wipe on & STOP! G

If you keep rubbing, you'll just make a sticky mess.

There isn't much else the white can be other than moisture or debris.
Did you sweat on it? No, I'm not kidding... Drops of sweat blush
lacquer and shellac.

All,

The second coat of sealer is done and overall appearance is very nice, IMO.

Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in
the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness.

Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so
these indications will not show?

Certainly understand that without putting eyes on this replies are based solely on
experience.

I am thinking the lacquer may melt into the sealer and provide sufficient film build to
provide a suitably smooth surface finish.

Want to do the best I can, without being too overly meticulous about minute anomalies.

Thanks to all again for the expert guidance - best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and
prosperous New Year!

Regards,

Doug


" wrote:

On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:

The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested
by Otoe.

Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing.
Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a
sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding
sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your
application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut
(that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion.

You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat
in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience.

You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand
giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your
application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray,
your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a
relatively short time.

When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a
warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the
paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny
scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the
hardness I want.

When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually
wait at least a couple of hours before sanding.

If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle
than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush
applied s

But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you
apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/
coats.

You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry
properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too
early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience.

If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand
between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you
sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface,
and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This
sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be
prominently displayed in your final finish coat.

With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't
necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting
out some dust nibs.

Will report back when done - or have gone astray.

Post away!

Robert

On Dec 31, 5:54*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

The second coat of sealer is done and overall appearance is very nice, IMO.

Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in
the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness.

Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so
these indications will not show?

Certainly understand that without putting eyes on this replies are based solely on
experience.

I am thinking the lacquer may melt into the sealer and provide sufficient film build to
provide a suitably smooth surface finish.

Want to do the best I can, without being too overly meticulous about minute anomalies.

Thanks to all again for the expert guidance - best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and
prosperous New Year!

The lacquer won't "melt" the sealer - they have different solvents.
The uneveness in the sealer coat will telegraph through the lacquer.
If you don't need to sand, don't, but if you have to sand, you sand -
just wait a suitable amount of time.

You could use Flickr!, or approved equal, to host some of your
pictures. It would make it easier in future to discuss what you're
doing.

R

On Dec 27, 12:57*am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote:
All,

Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand -
indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those
called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go.

Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably
brief period of time.

From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred.

The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product.

I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid
to get it off.

Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Doug

wood filler for the pores in red oak followed by a light steel wool
and tack rag, a couple coats of watco or low luster poly.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:54:50 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight
discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight
difference in thickness.

That could be the result of brushing. I've never had good luck brushing
shellac. Any overlap will show up as you describe.

I've had better luck using some of my wife's makeup remover pads wrapped
in a piece of old T-shirt. I apply a lot of very thin coats.



--
It's turtles, all the way down

Larry,

Thanks for the reply.

I applied the sealer with a section of wadded up old t-shirt, folded to provide a flat
face to the work piece.

Rather suspect the indication is the result of an uneven edge of sealer.

Guess I will have to sand - as another poster (RicodJour) pointed out that the lacquer
won't "melt" the sealer, and I sure do not want that discontinuity propagated to the
finish coat of lacquer.

Regards,

Doug

Larry Blanchard wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:54:50 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:

Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight
discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight
difference in thickness.

That could be the result of brushing. I've never had good luck brushing
shellac. Any overlap will show up as you describe.

I've had better luck using some of my wife's makeup remover pads wrapped
in a piece of old T-shirt. I apply a lot of very thin coats.

Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so
these indications will not show?

I'd smooth them with 400 grit.