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#1
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
All,
Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug |
#2
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug The gel varnish may give you what you want -- test on a piece of scrap. You might try a natural Danish oil, that will give a low luster, but not sure how it will interact with your stain. If you use any oil or penetrating finish, be aware that oak will bleed the finish for quite some time after application, so make sure you make periodic checks to wipe up any weeping pores or you will have dried oil beads (happened to somebody who lives in my neighborhood). -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#3
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Personally, I would get a pint of boiled linseed oil and a pint of turpentine and some wiping rags. Cut BLO with turps per instructions on can and wipe on, wipe off per instructions. Johnson's paste wax after BLO/turps dries (20-30 days) is optional. Have fun. Lew |
#4
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 26, 11:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Decide how the stand will be used and maintained, then tailor your finish to suit that need. If it is to be dusted and cleaned frequently, tung oils and their cousins are not the way to go as they will not fill any pores in the oak. This means that once the fine dust gets in them over a period of years, you won't get it out. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. Why? With today's modern finishes, I would hate to live on the edge of difference between some of resin finishes the these days. After application, I can't tell the difference between a regular long oil varnish (not talking spar here) and poly after they dry. Usually, the poly is harder, but not always. Don't be spooked by those that simply parrot what they hear about the correct way to finish projects. If you see a nice poly job with the proper sheen you will be surprised how warm and soft it will feel. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. If this is the oil variety, mind Mark's post above about beading and drying. That particular stain can easily take a couple of weeks to completely dry if you are in humid conditions. Wiping, brushing or padding a finish could be your undoing as the solvents in the finish will lift the stain colorants up into the finish. And since the above types of application are usually performed with thinned finishes raising the VOCs and making it "hotter", it can easily remove your stain job. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. If this is a model stand for viewing of your work, why not use lacquer? This is the traditional finish for furniture, and all kinds of other mill work. You can buy the lacquer in rattle cans and spray it on, and second coat in under 1/2 hour. Build the finish where you want it. Allow it to dry hard for a couple of weeks and you can knock down the gloss to the desired reflectivity with scotch brite pads. Unless you buy upper end steel wool, I wouldn't use sw unless you clean it first in naptha or something similar. Sw is treated from the factory with different kinds of waste oil to keep it from rusting; this can end up on your project. An alternative is to buy some poly semi gloss in rattle cans. This is easy to spray. You have to wait a long time for recoats, but the long working makes it easy to control the finish application. When I need a quick finish on a small project, I use rattle cans, and have found them to be very satisfactory. Spraying would keep you from lifting the finish as well. However, if you use poly spray unless you wait until the stain is completely dry, you can still see some of the beading Mark referenced, even when sprayed. With lacquer, the finish will dry so quickly that it doesn't bead the stain unless you really LOAD up the material when spraying. Good luck! Robert |
#5
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
wrote in message Spraying would keep you from lifting the finish as well. However, if you use poly spray unless you wait until the stain is completely dry, And to the OP, keep in mind your conditions if you're going to spray. Being the idiot I am, one time I used a can of blue spray paint in my living room to paint some cast iron legs for a work bench. It wasn't until I was finished I noticed that most everything in my living room had a bluish tinge to it. |
#6
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:57:37 -0600, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug First, be aware that most "Tung Oil" finishes don't use tung oil, or have so little tung oil in them that part is irrelevant. Your product could be a wiping varnish, an oil finish, or an oil/varnish blend. Second, the open pores of oak, as others have mentioned, will leak the oil back until that oil has fully cured. There is no one "best way" to finish. There are tradeoffs in terms of time and effort. For my taste, using an oil or oil/varnish finish is about as easy as it gets. But it doesn't look as good after a period of time, and you may find you want to reapply the oil now and again. So, my preference is to apply a topcoat, often after using an oil or sometimes a stain. I use stain less often than many will, but usually I want something to bring out the grain. If you want a very smooth surface, you can flood the suface with your chosen oil finish and wet sand it with some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper. The dust/oil slurry will fill the pores. And should take care of the "leak back" problem. Here's a write up someone did on that approach: http://www.masterartisan.com/article...oth+Oil+Finish You can get a low lustre on a poly surface, or any other topcoat, including your gel varnish (if formulated to be a "gloss" finish), by "rubbing out" after the finish has cured, using a grey scotchbrite type pad or wet/dry sandpaper. http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/htdocs/rubbingout.htm. Jim |
#7
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
n Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:57:37 -0600, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug I'm surprised no one meantioned shellac. Shellac seals and dries very quickly. It shows off the grain too. Applying several coats doesn't take long either. I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. You can lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats. In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although, give it a month before any furniture wax. Otoe |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 27, 9:35*am, Otoe wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned shellac. *Shellac seals and dries very quickly. *It shows off the grain too. *Applying several coats doesn't take long either. *I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. *You can lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats. *In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although, give it a month before any furniture wax. I like shellac as well, though I'm not sure if I'd use it as my finish. For a model stand, it'd probably be fine, but I like something that is a little more impervious. I like to stain, apply a thin coat of shellac to seal the pores and act as a barrier coat, then use a satin finish brushing lacquer. Lots of warmth, no bleed out in porous woods, and it's a fast finish. R |
#9
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 26, 9:57*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL! |
#10
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 27, 9:35*am, Otoe wrote:
I'm surprised no one meantioned shellac. *Shellac seals and dries very quickly. *It shows off the grain too. *Applying several coats doesn't take long either. *I'd use a 2lb cut with pad applicator. *You can lay at least 3 coats per day with very light sanding between coats. *In three days, it is done and dry enough for delivery: although, give it a month before any furniture wax. First choice for red oak (or cheap #2 white pine) is amber shellac. |
#11
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Jimmy Mac wrote:
On Dec 26, 9:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL! Was it C-less that called it min-whacks? I know he loved polyurinestain. :-) j4 |
#12
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 27, 3:32*pm, jo4hn wrote:
Jimmy Mac wrote: On Dec 26, 9:57 pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the wood. *Then (and whooda thunkut) *Minwax Poly Urethane. *Several thin coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit wet or dry paper with a mist of water. *This will be a high coat as smooth as glass and hard as a rock. *Just a suggestion since the call me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. * LOL! Was it C-less that called it min-whacks? *I know he loved polyurinestain. |
#13
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Everyone,
Many Thanks for the great suggestions - there just is nothing better than to benefit from the experience of others. Of all the recommendations, the shellac and spray lacquer finish sounds best to me. The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO. Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid or specifically try to use? Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely better than mine, which are none. Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray lacquer. Again - my sincerest Thanks to everyone for their valuable comments, which will be retained for future reference. Regards, Doug Jimmy Mac wrote: On Dec 26, 9:57*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug First a very light coat of shellac to close all the pores of the wood. Then (and whooda thunkut) Minwax Poly Urethane. Several thin coats - at least 7 and the final coat can be wet sanded with 800 grit wet or dry paper with a mist of water. This will be a high coat as smooth as glass and hard as a rock. Just a suggestion since the call me Minwax Mac besides Jummy. LOL! |
#14
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:09:13 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO. Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? I haven't tried it myself, but others have used pumice mixed with shellac to fill pores. Apparently the pumice becomes transparent. -- It's turtles, all the way down |
#15
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 28, 10:09 am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish method. Make no mistake, the shellac or any other finish will help mitigate the texture of the pores, but it won't go away by a long shot. If the project isn't too big, apply the shellac, let it sit for a couple of days, then sand it smooth. Apply a couple more coats in the same fashion, sanding all coats with at least 220 grit quality sandpaper, cleaning with mineral spirits in between sandings. Carefully sand with the grain. Resist the temptation so sand with anything higher than 320 grit. With finishes that resolvate (dissolve into each other rather than simply adhering) there simply isn't any need to do so. If you finish "balls" or "rolls" up under your sandpaper (wrapped around a block, right?) you need to give your finish more cure time. The lacquer will not melt into the shellac, so make the last coat of shellac as smooth as you can. Apply the lacquer over the final shellac coat. I wouldn't put less than three coats of lacquer over this. You will be surprised how well the shellac/lacquer combo will hold up. What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid or specifically try to use? Personally, I have had great experiences with Deft lacquer for years. It sprays well and has a good quality nozzle on the can so it will lay out a nice finish. After using spray can, if there is material left in the can remember to turn it upside down and spray out the remaining material in the pickup tube and the nozzle. It will spray almost pure air when the nozzle is clean. I have also used the newer Rustoleum clear lacquers and the best aspect of them is they dry really hard for a lacquer. The coats build nicely and it is easy to apply. I would personally stay away from the water borne stuff in a spray can as no one I know has had any luck with them yet. I read (although I haven't used them) that there are problems with the applicators, with recoating, and with witness lines. Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely better than mine, which are none. You are in pretty good hands around here. There are many that do finishing here (like me) professionally as part of their business. Read through the archives of the group and you will find all kinds of methods and experiences on finishing. Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray lacquer. I wouldn't tackle brushing lacquer unless you have a really small project. Brushing lacquer requires patience, the right equipment and the right technique. I have used a lot of brushing lacquer, but only if it is a smooth, featureless surface like a door. Even then, I pad it as brushing a couple of larger pieces out was a real pain. I still remember my first brushing of lacquer as it was a disaster. I was used to "long oils" and paints that gave you plenty of time to go over any brush strokes or holidays left behind. Not so with the lacquer. For me, it was like brushing on warm taffy. The first few brush strokes were great, after that it was all down hill. Everything started to dry immediately, any attempts at repairs "on the fly" were disaster, and the brush became a clump of semi dried resins. I found out at that time any brush strokes, holidays, or bugs can only be sanded out after a proper curing time. After I learned how easy lacquer was to spray, I have never brushed anything since that time (25 years?). Good luck on your project and let us know how it came out. Robert |
#16
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
wrote No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish method. snip Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive! -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 10/22/08 KarlC@ (the obvious) |
#17
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote in
: Everyone, Many Thanks for the great suggestions - there just is nothing better than to benefit from the experience of others. Of all the recommendations, the shellac and spray lacquer finish sounds best to me. The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO. Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid or specifically try to use? Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely better than mine, which are none. Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray lacquer. Again - my sincerest Thanks to everyone for their valuable comments, which will be retained for future reference. Regards, Doug snip some years ago I made a simple footstool of red oak, and to fill the grgain I used Behlen's Pore-O-Pac (and the solvent to adjust the consistency). I got the idea from someone here ... That sure did that job, but it also made the wood much lighter in color. I probably should have adjusted the pigment somehow, but wasn't experienced in doing things like that (still am inexperienced). After that, shellac and polyurethane. That has been quite durable over the just about 8 years in use. Photo's on abpw. -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#18
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Swingman" wrote in message ... wrote No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish method. snip Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive! If you use an oil based finish the easiest, old-fashioned, low-tech solution to filling the pores in red oak or other open pored woods is plaster of Paris... After the surface is hand planed/sanded apply the plaster of Paris, let it dry, sand it off, vacuum and tack rag the surface, and then apply your oil based finish. The plaster of Paris becomes transparent with the oil. Note that this will not work for filling gouges and other defects as the plaster will show up if it's too thick. For grain filling and minor surface defects it works just fine. Obviously, try some samples to get a feel for this before doing, say, the top of a large table. ;~) If you are using stain play with the plaster before and after staining to see what works with your combination of wood, stain and finish. I find this is a lot faster than applying myriad thick coats of finish and sanding them smooth as the plaster dries fast and sands quickly. John |
#19
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 28, 12:09*pm, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:09:13 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: The wood has several linear areas extending the full length that have very open grain - bigger than pores, IMO. Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? I haven't tried it myself, but others have used pumice mixed with shellac to fill pores. *Apparently the pumice becomes transparent. Used in French polishing, turns the wood surface to a fine slurry which mixes with the shellac and fills the pores. Just as easy to wet sand between coats with 320. |
#20
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Robert and others,
Thanks again very much for the great advice. Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon. The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get underway tomorrow. Certainly realize that most if not all procedures can sound much easier than what it actually takes for a correct / proper execution and the desired end results. You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. Will report back when done - or have gone astray. Regards, Doug " wrote: On Dec 28, 10:09 am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: Will shellac fill openings in the grain that are deep enough to catch a finger nail? No. Shellac or any other finish will simply mirror the texture of the substrate you are finishing. And with red oak... you couldn't have picked a tougher wood to try to smooth out. The tubules are deep and large, and while many finishes will easily span the pores, they will not fill them on their own. The exception being of course, that you use the classic approach of applying several thick built up coats that you will cut down later with a buffer or using the french polish method. Make no mistake, the shellac or any other finish will help mitigate the texture of the pores, but it won't go away by a long shot. If the project isn't too big, apply the shellac, let it sit for a couple of days, then sand it smooth. Apply a couple more coats in the same fashion, sanding all coats with at least 220 grit quality sandpaper, cleaning with mineral spirits in between sandings. Carefully sand with the grain. Resist the temptation so sand with anything higher than 320 grit. With finishes that resolvate (dissolve into each other rather than simply adhering) there simply isn't any need to do so. If you finish "balls" or "rolls" up under your sandpaper (wrapped around a block, right?) you need to give your finish more cure time. The lacquer will not melt into the shellac, so make the last coat of shellac as smooth as you can. Apply the lacquer over the final shellac coat. I wouldn't put less than three coats of lacquer over this. You will be surprised how well the shellac/lacquer combo will hold up. What about specific manufacturer / product recommendations - are there products to avoid or specifically try to use? Personally, I have had great experiences with Deft lacquer for years. It sprays well and has a good quality nozzle on the can so it will lay out a nice finish. After using spray can, if there is material left in the can remember to turn it upside down and spray out the remaining material in the pickup tube and the nozzle. It will spray almost pure air when the nozzle is clean. I have also used the newer Rustoleum clear lacquers and the best aspect of them is they dry really hard for a lacquer. The coats build nicely and it is easy to apply. I would personally stay away from the water borne stuff in a spray can as no one I know has had any luck with them yet. I read (although I haven't used them) that there are problems with the applicators, with recoating, and with witness lines. Realize this will certainly be the result of individual experiences - which are infinitely better than mine, which are none. You are in pretty good hands around here. There are many that do finishing here (like me) professionally as part of their business. Read through the archives of the group and you will find all kinds of methods and experiences on finishing. Checking the Minwax products - see they have a clear brushing lacquer - however no spray lacquer. I wouldn't tackle brushing lacquer unless you have a really small project. Brushing lacquer requires patience, the right equipment and the right technique. I have used a lot of brushing lacquer, but only if it is a smooth, featureless surface like a door. Even then, I pad it as brushing a couple of larger pieces out was a real pain. I still remember my first brushing of lacquer as it was a disaster. I was used to "long oils" and paints that gave you plenty of time to go over any brush strokes or holidays left behind. Not so with the lacquer. For me, it was like brushing on warm taffy. The first few brush strokes were great, after that it was all down hill. Everything started to dry immediately, any attempts at repairs "on the fly" were disaster, and the brush became a clump of semi dried resins. I found out at that time any brush strokes, holidays, or bugs can only be sanded out after a proper curing time. After I learned how easy lacquer was to spray, I have never brushed anything since that time (25 years?). Good luck on your project and let us know how it came out. Robert |
#21
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote in message
... You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. I don't see a need. Mixed fresh from flake and high quality denatured alcohol, it should set up hard and tack free in about 10 minutes. (Milliseconds, if you forget to wipe the jar's threads before screwing on the lid.) It's fully cured when the alcohol evaporates, about an hour at most for freshly made. Even when using store-bought, toss it if it doesn't set up hard in 24 hours. Shelf life of shellac is relatively short. Alcohol is hydrophilic, and soaks in moisture from the air. The moisture interferes with curing, and can cause the film to dry cloudy. Keep it tightly capped, and plan to use it up quickly. I mix 3 lb batches, and pour out just what I'll use that day, and cut it with fresh alcohol. A quart size round Tupperware is the right size for me. 1.5 lb cut works pretty well for brushing. 2 lb cut or very slightly thicker when padding. |
#22
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 28, 3:21*pm, "Swingman" wrote:
Keep'em coming, Robert ... your book is taking shape, on my hard drive! LOL!!! Hey... send me a copy when it's finished! Robert |
#23
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing. Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut (that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion. You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray, your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a relatively short time. When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the hardness I want. When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually wait at least a couple of hours before sanding. If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush applied s But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/ coats. You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience. If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface, and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be prominently displayed in your final finish coat. With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting out some dust nibs. Will report back when done - or have gone astray. Post away! Robert |
#24
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote:
Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get underway tomorrow. I'm no genius when it comes to working with finishes, but the following work for me: 1) Patience is a virtue. 2) Finish materials are temperature dependant. If you can't guarantee 70F minimum for at least 3-4 hours (2 before, 2 after applying finish), find something else to do that day. YMMV. Lew |
#25
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon. The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as water resistant. What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac. If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired. You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. Shellac will dry to the touch almost instantly for the first few thin coats and I've never had to wait more than an hour to recoat unless the weather is very cold and damp. But that doesn't mean it's cured. If you try to sand it (lightly! or you'll melt it!) without waiting at least a week you'll get little gummy balls of shellac all over your sandpaper. A very experienced woodworking friend of mine claims that shellac never quits getting harder. My experience with old furniture seems to support that. -- It's turtles, all the way down |
#26
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon. The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as water resistant. What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac. If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired. I find it faster to thin the shellac first and then decant. Once thinned it usually takes only a day or two for the wax to settle out. -- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA |
#27
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
"Nova" wrote in message
... Larry Blanchard wrote: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:52:14 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: Bought the shellac and spray lacquer this afternoon. The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Doug, that sounds like the stuff with wax in it. OK by itself, but not good if you're going to put anything else on top of it. Also not as water resistant. What you probably should have gotten was Zinsser's SealCoat. It's sold as a sanding sealer, but it's a 2 pound cut of dewaxed shellac. If you have the patience, you can let what you have sit for a week or two and the wax will settle to the bottom and you can carefully pour off about a half can of dewaxed. Then thin as desired. I find it faster to thin the shellac first and then decant. Once thinned it usually takes only a day or two for the wax to settle out. Better still, and faster, just start over with dewaxed flakes. http://www.shellacshack.com/ |
#28
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Lew Hodgett wrote:
"Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: Was rather damp and cool in Houston area today - so will get underway tomorrow. I'm no genius when it comes to working with finishes, but the following work for me: 1) Patience is a virtue. 2) Finish materials are temperature and humidity dependant. In dry climates, finishes that dry relatively slowly in other climates, dry quite fast. Higher humidity conditions slow down curing. In Tucson, I can't follow the directions as far as time between coats or especially time to wipe off excess finish. If I wait the full instructed time, the finish becomes so tacky that the wiping rag is pulled apart into the finish. If you can't guarantee 70F minimum for at least 3-4 hours (2 before, 2 after applying finish), find something else to do that day. YMMV. Lew -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#29
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
All,
Again - many thanks for the valuable advice. Purchased the SealCoat product and applied the first coat. We had unusually low humidity (for Houston at least) and temps in the low 70's yesterday - and as Mark and Larry commented, the first pass was very tacky before finishing the second pass - may not be the best choice of words - the piece is approx. 8" wide and 17" long which is in the direction of the grain - so a pass covered about half the width. Two obviously neophyte questions: 1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct? 2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the surface is smooth to the touch. Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of SealCoat. Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is applied? Thanks again everyone! Regards, Doug " wrote: On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing. Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut (that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion. You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray, your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a relatively short time. When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the hardness I want. When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually wait at least a couple of hours before sanding. If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush applied s But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/ coats. You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience. If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface, and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be prominently displayed in your final finish coat. With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting out some dust nibs. Will report back when done - or have gone astray. Post away! Robert |
#30
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct? 2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the surface is smooth to the touch. Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of SealCoat. Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is applied? Work FAST! Shellac dries quickly. Don't tip it off, as you would with varnish. The whitish patches may be "blushing", which is embedded moisture. The second coat of Seal Coat should eliminate it. Was there water in brush? Get the blush out before applying the lacquer. Don't move to another step until you've got the current step right. |
#31
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Thanks Barry.
Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for Houston. When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out? Regards, Doug B A R R Y wrote: Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: 1. Presume that after applying the product it should be worked into the surface and the excess is rubbed off. Is this correct? 2. There are several small patches that have a faint whitish appearance - and the surface is smooth to the touch. Per Robert's recommendation - do not plan to sand and will apply two coats of SealCoat. Are these white patches normal? Will they disappear once the lacquer top coat is applied? Work FAST! Shellac dries quickly. Don't tip it off, as you would with varnish. The whitish patches may be "blushing", which is embedded moisture. The second coat of Seal Coat should eliminate it. Was there water in brush? Get the blush out before applying the lacquer. Don't move to another step until you've got the current step right. |
#32
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Thanks Barry. Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for Houston. When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out? Wipe on & STOP! G If you keep rubbing, you'll just make a sticky mess. There isn't much else the white can be other than moisture or debris. Did you sweat on it? No, I'm not kidding... Drops of sweat blush lacquer and shellac. |
#33
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Barry,
Thanks for your reply. OK - no rubbing in or buffing after application. No sweat fell on the work piece - although were it anytime other than the few weeks of cool, low humidity weather we get here that may have been a possibility. After the application, wiping down, and replacing the lid on the can - apparently some of the coating dripped onto the work piece - this is where the whitish areas are, in addition to a small area where the grain is very open. After sitting for several hours, I buffed the entire surface and the white has noticeably diminished. Temps are good and the humidity is down right now - so will apply the second coat - with no rubbing! Regards and best wishes for a prosperous New Year! Doug B A R R Y wrote: Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: Thanks Barry. Applied the SealCoat with a dry cloth and the humidity was uncommonly dry - at least for Houston. When applying - should I leave the material on the surface or try to rub in / buff out? Wipe on & STOP! G If you keep rubbing, you'll just make a sticky mess. There isn't much else the white can be other than moisture or debris. Did you sweat on it? No, I'm not kidding... Drops of sweat blush lacquer and shellac. |
#34
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
All,
The second coat of sealer is done and overall appearance is very nice, IMO. Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness. Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so these indications will not show? Certainly understand that without putting eyes on this replies are based solely on experience. I am thinking the lacquer may melt into the sealer and provide sufficient film build to provide a suitably smooth surface finish. Want to do the best I can, without being too overly meticulous about minute anomalies. Thanks to all again for the expert guidance - best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and prosperous New Year! Regards, Doug " wrote: On Dec 28, 11:52*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr." wrote: The shellac is by Zinsser and is 3 lb cut - so must thin to get to a 2 lb cut as suggested by Otoe. Douglas - careful here. The Zinseer 3# cut if for finishing. Although I have not actually had any tragedies using this for a sealer, it is best to get the yellow can of Zinseer marked "sanding sealer". This is the correct viscosity and "cut" for your application. Also, it is dewaxed shellac, as opposed to the 3# cut (that isn't) which helps ensure adhesion. You mention letting the shellac coats sit for several days - although the can says re-coat in an hour. *Rather imagine that is the VOE speaking i.e., Voice of Experience. You can actually sand and recoat when the shellac will easily sand giving off only a fine white powder. This really depends on your application method as well as your weather conditions. If you spray, your coats will probably dry quite fast and you can sand in a relatively short time. When I spray shellac sealer, I can easily sand within 45 minutes on a warm, clear day. Even though the finish powders up nicely under the paper before then, it is still soft enough to leave unnecessary tiny scratches. If I can, I wait an hour or so just to be sure I have the hardness I want. When it is cool, humid/drizzly, and I have to brush or pad, I usually wait at least a couple of hours before sanding. If I brush the shellac, I put a lot more on as it is harder to handle than just whistling by with a gun. So in bad conditions and a brush applied s But remember, the more coats on the surface and the thicker finish you apply from multiple coats means more drying time between sanding/ coats. You cannot screw up by waiting for shellac or lacquer to dry properly. You can screw up by getting on with your processes too early. Take your time - good finishing requires patience. If you go with the lacquer as a final finish, there is no need to sand between coats. I NEVER do unless I have screwed something up. If you sand between the coats you will leave debris on your project surface, and in nooks and crannies where you cannot get it all out. This sanding dust and bits off your paper will however find a way to be prominently displayed in your final finish coat. With resolvating finishes, sanding between coats simply isn't necessary unless you are removing a run, bad brush stroke, or getting out some dust nibs. Will report back when done - or have gone astray. Post away! Robert |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 31, 5:54*pm, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: All, The second coat of sealer is done and overall appearance is very nice, IMO. Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness. Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so these indications will not show? Certainly understand that without putting eyes on this replies are based solely on experience. I am thinking the lacquer may melt into the sealer and provide sufficient film build to provide a suitably smooth surface finish. Want to do the best I can, without being too overly meticulous about minute anomalies. Thanks to all again for the expert guidance - best wishes to all for a healthy, happy, and prosperous New Year! The lacquer won't "melt" the sealer - they have different solvents. The uneveness in the sealer coat will telegraph through the lacquer. If you don't need to sand, don't, but if you have to sand, you sand - just wait a suitable amount of time. You could use Flickr!, or approved equal, to host some of your pictures. It would make it easier in future to discuss what you're doing. R |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Dec 27, 12:57*am, "Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr."
wrote: All, Had planned to use a tung oil finish on *red oak to be used as a model display stand - indoor use only, and after reading the many posts on the use of this product - and those called tung oil finishes, not confident this is the best way to go. Desired end result is a low lustre, rich finish that can be completed in a reasonably brief period of time. From my limited understanding, a poly finish is not preferred. The wood has been stained using Minwax's wood finish product. I have a can of Bartley's gel varnish - although will likely have to destroy the can's lid to get it off. Any and all recommendations are greatly appreciated. Regards, Doug wood filler for the pores in red oak followed by a light steel wool and tack rag, a couple coats of watco or low luster poly. |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:54:50 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness. That could be the result of brushing. I've never had good luck brushing shellac. Any overlap will show up as you describe. I've had better luck using some of my wife's makeup remover pads wrapped in a piece of old T-shirt. I apply a lot of very thin coats. -- It's turtles, all the way down |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Larry,
Thanks for the reply. I applied the sealer with a section of wadded up old t-shirt, folded to provide a flat face to the work piece. Rather suspect the indication is the result of an uneven edge of sealer. Guess I will have to sand - as another poster (RicodJour) pointed out that the lacquer won't "melt" the sealer, and I sure do not want that discontinuity propagated to the finish coat of lacquer. Regards, Doug Larry Blanchard wrote: On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:54:50 -0600, Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote: Have now noticed the presence of some very fine scratches and a slight discontinuity in the shellac coat - not a run, but a noticeably slight difference in thickness. That could be the result of brushing. I've never had good luck brushing shellac. Any overlap will show up as you describe. I've had better luck using some of my wife's makeup remover pads wrapped in a piece of old T-shirt. I apply a lot of very thin coats. |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Suggestions for red oak finish
Douglas R. Hortvet, Jr. wrote:
Will the lacquer (planning on 3 coats) either melt into the sealer or build up enough so these indications will not show? I'd smooth them with 400 grit. |
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