OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop Fox
W1677
(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of $55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds, while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier. So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

OK I think I answered my own questions:

From the downloaded PDF Owner's Manuals for each saw:

Shop Fox W1677 - Weight: 430 pounds
Grizzly 1023SL - Weight: 430 pounds

*sigh*

Brian.

"Brian" wrote in message
...
OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is
any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop Fox
W1677

(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of $55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier.
So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is
this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim
actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

I'm afraid I can't answer your question because I've never seen the Shopfox
in person. I can only speak to the G1023SL of which I own and am happy
with. As I understand it, the left tilt saws are slightly heavier because
of the way the trunions are configured. By the data, it seems the table is
slightly larger with the left tilt model.

I know your question had nothing to do with right / left tilt but if I had
it to do over again, I'd probably opt for a right tilt - simply because that
is what I was used to and the main reason is something I didn't discover
until after I got it. The slot left of the blade is further away in left
tilt models - just the opposite of right tilt. I don't know why this is but
I don't care for it and it's got me curious. I hope you get your answer on
the Shopfox model because I struggled with the same questions when I bought
mine. Will be watching the thread. Leon - any input?

Don

Brian wrote in message
...
OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is
any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop Fox
W1677

(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of $55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier.
So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is
this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim
actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

I've always used right tilt too (Delta contractors models), but I now think
I'd prefer the blade to tilt away from the fence. And after using
Powermatics at the local Jr. College, I don't mind the difference at all.

Brian.


"V.E. Dorn" wrote in message
...
I'm afraid I can't answer your question because I've never seen the
Shopfox
in person. I can only speak to the G1023SL of which I own and am happy
with. As I understand it, the left tilt saws are slightly heavier because
of the way the trunions are configured. By the data, it seems the table
is
slightly larger with the left tilt model.

Oh and by the way, I think the additional weight of the left tilt saw is
itself a good reason to choose it. :-)

"V.E. Dorn" wrote in message
...
I'm afraid I can't answer your question because I've never seen the
Shopfox
in person. I can only speak to the G1023SL of which I own and am happy
with. As I understand it, the left tilt saws are slightly heavier because
of the way the trunions are configured. By the data, it seems the table
is
slightly larger with the left tilt model.

Don,

I have got to agree with you on right vs left tilt. I, too, have a 1023SL
and I am starting to think that I should have gone with right tilt. Since I
have had the saw (close to a year now), I have never used a dado set and
have only tilted the blade a few degrees to make some raised panels. When I
made raised panels on my old right tilt, I just put the fence on the left
side.

I do think that when I am ready to use a dado set next time (I own two) I
will wish I had right tilt.

Montyhp
"V.E. Dorn" wrote in message
...
I'm afraid I can't answer your question because I've never seen the
Shopfox
in person. I can only speak to the G1023SL of which I own and am happy
with. As I understand it, the left tilt saws are slightly heavier because
of the way the trunions are configured. By the data, it seems the table
is
slightly larger with the left tilt model.

I know your question had nothing to do with right / left tilt but if I had
it to do over again, I'd probably opt for a right tilt - simply because
that
is what I was used to and the main reason is something I didn't discover
until after I got it. The slot left of the blade is further away in left
tilt models - just the opposite of right tilt. I don't know why this is
but
I don't care for it and it's got me curious. I hope you get your answer
on
the Shopfox model because I struggled with the same questions when I
bought
mine. Will be watching the thread. Leon - any input?

Don

Brian wrote in message
...
OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is
any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there
are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop
Fox
W1677


(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of
$55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for
the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty
trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier.
So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is
this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim
actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

Take a look at the Z series Grizzly, much better fence for almost same
price. Lots of other features you pay for on the other saws.

KY

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


"Brian" wrote in message
...
OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is
any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop Fox
W1677

(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of $55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier.
So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is
this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim
actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

I do think that when I am ready to use a dado set next time (I own two) I
will wish I had right tilt.

Montyhp


Ok I'll bite.... Why does it matter for dadoing?

Brian.

"Knucklehead" wrote in message
. ..
Take a look at the Z series Grizzly, much better fence for almost same
price. Lots of other features you pay for on the other saws.

KY

--

http://users.adelphia.net/~kyhighland


Yeah I considered it. But I think I prefer the Biesemeyer-style fence
instead of the type that attaches at the rear. If I were to upgrade the
fence, I'd go straight to an Incra anyhow. The left tilt saw has the motor
cover and everything else included with the Z series aside from the upgraded
Shop Fox fence.

Brian.

PS. Nice cabinet work in your den. :-)

Because when you use a dado blade on a right tilt saw, your scale is still
correct because the blades pack to the left (as you're facing the front).
The advantages to left tilt is that you have storage area under the right
part of the saw because the opening to the cabinet is on the left side, you
can more easily change blades from the front of the saw because the nut on
the arbor turns correctly, (left to losen, right to tighten) Lastly, some
argue that there is less chance of a pinch kickback when using the blade at
an angle because it's facing away from the fence. However, I don't
personally care for the miter slot being so far away from the blade on the
left side with a left tilt saw.

Don

Brian wrote in message
...

I do think that when I am ready to use a dado set next time (I own two)
I
will wish I had right tilt.

Montyhp


Ok I'll bite.... Why does it matter for dadoing?

Brian.

On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 16:23:35 -0800, Brian wrote:


I do think that when I am ready to use a dado set next time (I own two) I
will wish I had right tilt.

Montyhp


Ok I'll bite.... Why does it matter for dadoing?

On a left tilt, the arbor points to the right and stacking all those
cutters up screws up the rule on the front of the saw - if you're
measuring from the fence on the right. 'Course, so does changing from a
regular 1/8" kerf blade to a 3/32" blade. I usually mark on the stock and
line it up with the blade, so no prob.

-Doug

"V.E. Dorn" wrote in message
...
Because when you use a dado blade on a right tilt saw, your scale is still
correct because the blades pack to the left (as you're facing the front).
The advantages to left tilt is that you have storage area under the right
part of the saw because the opening to the cabinet is on the left side,
you
can more easily change blades from the front of the saw because the nut on
the arbor turns correctly, (left to losen, right to tighten) Lastly, some
argue that there is less chance of a pinch kickback when using the blade
at
an angle because it's facing away from the fence. However, I don't
personally care for the miter slot being so far away from the blade on the
left side with a left tilt saw.

Don


Ah... Yes I didn't think about the guage error on the left tilt. Well
worth consideration... But my main interest in right vs. left in general
are the pinch kickbacks as you mention... And in the case of the Grizzly
saw specifically, the larger cast table area and extra 100 pounds (of
stability).

Brian.

Bought the 1677EXT1 and love it. I was able to get free shipping due to
order size from my local retailer here in SoCal. Out the door price was
1313.81 off of the "A" column including tax. If the order size is 5k then
your dealer can move into the "B" column for bigger savings so I was told. I
found places online with better pricing and free shipping on the Shop Fox
but wanted local support. You also might want too have your dealer combine
some orders to get the free shipping (cant remember the price break point on
the shipping). Hope this helps.

Bofus

"Brian" wrote in message
...
OK I know this has been discussed before, but I'm wondering if there is
any
new information out there as I've had it with my old saw and am ready to
move up.. From what I can google on the subject, Shop Fox is the retail
name for Grizzly and the machines themselves are identical. However, in
talking with the guys at www.utterguys.com (who sell Shop Fox), there are
supposedly non-trivial differences....

The two saws in question are these: Grizzly 1023SL
(http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL) and Shop Fox
W1677

(http://www.utterguys.com/cgi-bin/web...form&_layout=t
ool&keyval=tool.ID%3D29427).

The prices are the same until you consider shipping (to California) of $55
vs. $255. So a $200 premium all said and done for the Shop Fox. Yes, I
even contacted West Coast Shop Fox dealers and could not find a better
freight rate.

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

The problem I have with these claims is this.... I've seen the Grizzly
trunions and there is nothing hollow or lightweight about them, and I
frankly don't see the room in there for anything significantly beefier.
So
how can you get to 100 pounds via larger hand wheels and trunions? Is
this
a case of deceptive advertising (i.e. the "nearly 500 pounds" claim
actually
referring to shipping weight?)? Thoughts?

Would love to hear input before making the purchase. I might consider
spending an extra $200 if the trunions are indeed vastly stronger and
heavier. Anyone with the W1677 actualy *know* the real machine weight?

Thanks.

Brian.

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
s.com...

On a left tilt, the arbor points to the right and stacking all those
cutters up screws up the rule on the front of the saw - if you're
measuring from the fence on the right. 'Course, so does changing from a
regular 1/8" kerf blade to a 3/32" blade. I usually mark on the stock and
line it up with the blade, so no prob.


Right, or I guess there are two other possibilities with a left tilt
(assuming the leftmost end blade in the dado stack is 1/8"):

1) Subtract 1/8" from your measurement to set the fence, and then reference
off the left side of the dado...

2) Make a test cut to determine the error (width of dado stack minus 1/8")
and factor that into your fence setting so you can reference from the right
side of the dado.

Seems like any of the three options, including yours, are only minor
inconveniences.

Brian.

[...snip...]

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds, while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.

[...snip...]

FWIW, I've always suspected those particular comparisons were for the
Grizzly right tilt vs the Shop Fox left tilt.

If you download the PDF files and open them, they both say machine weight is
430 pounds. God only knows where they pulled that 552 pounds from for the
website...

Brian.



"tom" wrote in message
...
Ok guys here is the link to the ShopFox manual
http://www.woodstockinternational.com/W1677.cfm

Says its 552 lbs.

Here is the link to Grizzly 1023sl
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL

says its 467 lbs.

By way mailing address is same as Grizzly in Bellingham


tom


Jim Weisgram wrote:
[...snip...]

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds,
while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for
the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty
trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.


[...snip...]

FWIW, I've always suspected those particular comparisons were for the
Grizzly right tilt vs the Shop Fox left tilt.

Ok guys here is the link to the ShopFox manual
http://www.woodstockinternational.com/W1677.cfm

Says its 552 lbs.

Here is the link to Grizzly 1023sl
http://www.grizzly.com/products/item...number=G1023SL

says its 467 lbs.

By way mailing address is same as Grizzly in Bellingham


tom


Jim Weisgram wrote:
[...snip...]

Now the Utter Guys say that the ShopFox unit weighs nearly 500 pounds, while
the Grizzly is under 400 (*shipping* weight of 467). They account for the
weight differences in heavier duty hand wheels and heavier duty trunions,
which would have to be close to 100 pounds. The cast iron table and
extensions are identical in size and weight.


[...snip...]

FWIW, I've always suspected those particular comparisons were for the
Grizzly right tilt vs the Shop Fox left tilt.