John Paquay's "Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" and Jim Toplin's
"Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets".

The following is from an old post of mine.

quote

"I personally like John's basic kitchen cabinet construction method, which
focuses on hardwood face frames, routed to accept the cabinet sides and
floors. IME, once you build one cabinet using John's method, the light goes
on and no cabinet is then too tough. John still posts here occasionally and
the last time I looked his booklet could be ordered at:

http://home.insightbb.com/~jpaquay/shop.html

While John's little book is geared to the construction of the basic wall and
base cabinet, Toplin's book is a fairly good reference for different types
of cabinet construction, drawers and, in particular, installation.

If I had to do with just one, and had never built a kitchen cabinet before,
I would go with John's self-published booklet... but both of them together
will give you what you need, and the confidence, to get the job done.

Strictly my .02 based on my hands on experience of what you are
anticipating"

/quote

If you have any question about this undertaking , just fire away.


--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03



"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
om...
I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

She has a small point in that I do not have a lot of experience but
the doggone things look so simple to build. Maybe I am
underestimating the complexity of them or overestimating my abilities
but they are nothing but a box with a door.

Well, maybe that WAS a little on the oversimplification side.

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

She has a small point in that I do not have a lot of experience but
the doggone things look so simple to build. Maybe I am
underestimating the complexity of them or overestimating my abilities
but they are nothing but a box with a door.

Well, maybe that WAS a little on the oversimplification side.

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

Good for you Ray! Don't worry it's a challenge you can handle. How do I
know? Well because I knew very little about woodworking and I was able to
do it! I took a woodworking class to get the basics and I currently have
all my base cabinets built, including a lazy Suzan, which I think is pretty
cool. And they have inset doors, with may tell me are harder to build.

They Are basically a box with a door. But I urge you to think them out a
bit. there are a lot of nice custom things you can do with them. There are
several books out there, I got some off Amazon. You can even just make the
box and order the doors pre made, but I'm enjoying making them myself.

Good luck.

Ben


"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
om...
I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

She has a small point in that I do not have a lot of experience but
the doggone things look so simple to build. Maybe I am
underestimating the complexity of them or overestimating my abilities
but they are nothing but a box with a door.

Well, maybe that WAS a little on the oversimplification side.

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

This is my first post to this newsgroup so I hope I'm on the right track
with my information here. I dont know the website, but I have a book called
' Making Kitchen Cabinets ' by Paul Levine which is very good - full of
practical stuff and hints with good illustrations and pictures. It is
published by The Taunton Press of the USA. International Standard Book
Number 0-918804-94-9 and Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 87-51674.
My copy is the 1988 edition and I brought it in a bookshop here in Australia
about a year ago, but being a fairly 'old ' book now, perhaps its only
available through the web.

Hope this helps,
Dean.

"Ray Kinzler"

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

Ray building Kitchen cabinets is easier tham making a cardboard box, it is
one of the biggest whoring of woodowrking that there is. Simple fundamentles
24" deep boxes, 36" high floor to worktop if you have a 1-1/2" top

Be carefull in your inside corners, upper cabs 12" deep 30" high is the
standard but do not be afraid to go to 32 and 36 or higher if your ceilings
allow, give's the wife a lot more storage room for the 50% of crap that
women keep that they use once a year.
(I should talk my wife is always giving me hell because i do cook and buy or
have bought most everything out thereG)

It all in the fronts good doors throw up a nice crown mldg on the top and a
mldg on the bottom edge of the upper cabinets and make a door for your end
panels,

You will end up with look that will have her apologizing for doubting you
for a long time G
Go For It
Good Luck,
George

"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
om...
I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

She has a small point in that I do not have a lot of experience but
the doggone things look so simple to build. Maybe I am
underestimating the complexity of them or overestimating my abilities
but they are nothing but a box with a door.

Well, maybe that WAS a little on the oversimplification side.

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

Kid I worked with and his father both were woodworkers with Unisaws
and in remodel thay decided to make cabinets and but doors. I made
pull out drawers for cabinets above fridge and oven with low
front/sides that make reclaiming items MUCH easier than before.

On 10 Nov 2003 11:08:13 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:

I will say that I am thinking about cheating a little and ordering the
doors and drawer fronts. I am ambitious but I don't have oodles of
time at this point. Plus it seems to me that those pieces are the
hardest ones.

Swingman,

As Lucy van Pelt used to say in the old "Peanuts" comincs: "THAT'S
IT!!!!!"

John Paquay's manual is exactly what I was referring to. However, the
material mentioned by others looked very good as well. I guess I was
just looking for the old cut-to-the-chase sort of manual and this is
it. Nothing fancy.

Thanks also to the others who responded and gave a few hints (like
watch out for the inside corners). It was sort of a good feeling to
be told that building kitchen cabinets is easier than making a
cardboard box. It certainly seemed that way to me but if all you guys
think the same thing, it makes me feel a lot better.

I also liked the ideas about the lazy susans and the advice to think
things out. I am going to take some real time to brainstorm to see
what I can come up with but I am basically limited in what I can do.
The kitchen is a rectangle and there is not enough room for an island
in the middle (unless the wife wants to get rid of the kitchen table
and eat in the dining room). I see spots where I can hang some
additional cabinets like on the wall above the microwave, above the
fridge, and above the sink (maybe). Other than that, I am
more-or-less going to mimic what is already in place as far as
dimensions are concerned. The only big thing I could maybe do is
knock out a wall but (a) it is a load-bearing wall and I do not have
enough experience messing with that sort of stuff although a 2x12
spanning across the opening should hold it and (b) that would actually
take away from the space that I have because that is where the kitchen
sink is currently.

I am getting WAY ahead of myself. I need to get a manual and a few
hundred pieces of paper and draw something.

Thanks a lot!!


"Swingman" wrote in message tnews.com...
John Paquay's "Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" and Jim Toplin's
"Building Traditional Kitchen Cabinets".

(Ray Kinzler) writes:


[...]

and eat in the dining room). I see spots where I can hang some
additional cabinets like on the wall above the microwave, above the
fridge, and above the sink (maybe). Other than that, I am

Be careful not to obstruct the cooling vents of the microwave and the
airflow behinde the fridge, just remember that the microwave produces
as much "unwanted" heat which has to be blown away as it produces heat
in the food, and that the fridges efficiency drops to nothing if the
backside has no cooling airflow.
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
Physikalisches Institut der Uni Bonn Nussallee 12, D-53115 Bonn, Germany
CERN: Phone: +412276 76461 Fax: ..77930 Bat. 892-R-A13 CH-1211 Geneve 23

George, what did you mean by "be careful in your inside corners"?

dave

George M. Kazaka wrote:

Ray building Kitchen cabinets is easier tham making a cardboard box, it is
one of the biggest whoring of woodowrking that there is. Simple fundamentles
24" deep boxes, 36" high floor to worktop if you have a 1-1/2" top

Be carefull in your inside corners, upper cabs 12" deep 30" high is the

snip

It's impractical to respond to all messages but I needed to reposnd to
you, Geroge, because you hit the nail on the head! My wife has so
much, well, CRAP, that one of the big reasons I want to put in new
cabinets is to increase storage. She pile those top shelves
full...and then call me at work some morning whining that she can't
find something and she thinks it's in the back corner on the top
shelf. And it's too high for her to reach. And she's NOT going to
reach for it. I will need to get it as soon as I get home and that
will ruin blah, blah, blah.

I get yelled at because I cook, too. And I buy a lot of stuff. She
just doesn't understand that cooking is like woodworking: the right
tool for the right job makes life easier and the experience more
enjoyable. If it were up to her, I would still be using the
butterknife she and her mother used as a screwdriver.

But I don't care...I like your idea. I actuall have enough room
between the top of the cabinets and the ceiling to put either an
additional shelf inside the cabinet or even install an additional
door, maybe even, and have separate cabinets above the cabinet. Sort
of gives me a reason to try and make doors with glass in them, even.

I will say that I am thinking about cheating a little and ordering the
doors and drawer fronts. I am ambitious but I don't have oodles of
time at this point. Plus it seems to me that those pieces are the
hardest ones.


"George M. Kazaka" wrote in message ...
Ray building Kitchen cabinets is easier tham making a cardboard box, it is
one of the biggest whoring of woodowrking that there is. Simple fundamentles
24" deep boxes, 36" high floor to worktop if you have a 1-1/2" top

Be carefull in your inside corners, upper cabs 12" deep 30" high is the
standard but do not be afraid to go to 32 and 36 or higher if your ceilings
allow, give's the wife a lot more storage room for the 50% of crap that
women keep that they use once a year.
(I should talk my wife is always giving me hell because i do cook and buy or
have bought most everything out thereG)

Got a BORG close by? Measure your space and get them design one for you
using their software and one of their showroom models that you/SWMBO like.
They do it for free here.

All you need is one design to get the idea of what they are up to. That will
help you with your own planning.

Break a leg ...

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03



"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
Swingman,

As Lucy van Pelt used to say in the old "Peanuts" comincs: "THAT'S
IT!!!!!"

I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

Ray, I'm on your side. I started a similar project from zero (I mean zero
tools and zero capital) So I'd like to exchange experiences about the
experiences in facing such a project. You can reach me at

Good luck!
Faustino

On 10 Nov 2003 06:45:17 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online.

I get the feeling this isn't a popular book, but I bought it years ago
and it got me through my first "real" woodworking project.

"Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" by Jere Cary

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

On 10 Nov 2003 06:45:17 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:

I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself.
Ray, I'm doing the same thing, using the same basic existing layout
that I have allready. For $7.95 take a look at the Cabinetmaking
Seminar at http://www.woodonline.com . Very basic stuff. You will
need more books, but this is a good start.
Good Luck

I found "Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets" by Danny Proulx to be a pretty
good book..

"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
om...
I have decided to bite the bullet and attempt to build my kitchen
cabinets myself. The wife isn't so happy about the idea because she
thinks I don't know enough to actually make them and have them look
anything near good.

She has a small point in that I do not have a lot of experience but
the doggone things look so simple to build. Maybe I am
underestimating the complexity of them or overestimating my abilities
but they are nothing but a box with a door.

Well, maybe that WAS a little on the oversimplification side.

In aby event, I seem to recall a recommendation for a book that is
short and sweet and only sold online. I saw it in a thread here a
couple months ago when I was pushing around the idea of simply
refacing the exisiting cabinets and go the bug to actaully build them
once I read the website.

Can anybody remember the site I am talking about?

Thanks

Juergen,

I am just planning on the 'normal' distance between the countertop and
the bottom of the upper cabinets to place my microwave. Is that not
enough space?

Also, I never really thunk aboutit but how much space DOES there need
to be between the bottom of the cabinets and the top of the fridge?


Be careful not to obstruct the cooling vents of the microwave and the
airflow behinde the fridge, just remember that the microwave produces
as much "unwanted" heat which has to be blown away as it produces heat
in the food, and that the fridges efficiency drops to nothing if the
backside has no cooling airflow.

Holy cow. I actually DID think of this. I thought it might be
'cheating' though. Part of me is scared to do that because they will
simply suck SWMBO in and make her think she wants that junk. She is a
tough sell in the first place.

And since she is such a tough sell, I was wondering if I should maybe
start with something that the entire world doesn't see but she will.
Another room that needs spruced up is the master bathroom. I could
start out by making a vanity, a medicine chest, and a cabinet above
the toilet. That may be a good starting point for this project.

Of course, I need to do it around me getting my Master's degree,
activities the two kids partake in, and just, well, life. Luckily,
the relatively high cost of remodeling a kitchen and a bathroom makes
both of us slow down and really think about what we want.

Any thoughts as to practicing on the bathroom cabinetry before
attempting to build the kitchen cabinets?






"Swingman" wrote in message tnews.com...
Got a BORG close by? Measure your space and get them design one for you
using their software and one of their showroom models that you/SWMBO like.
They do it for free here.

All you need is one design to get the idea of what they are up to. That will
help you with your own planning.

Break a leg ...

"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message

I am just planning on the 'normal' distance between the countertop and
the bottom of the upper cabinets to place my microwave. Is that not
enough space?

Normal distance is 16 - 18", on the higher side if you plan on having
undercounter lighting ... that usually allows plenty of room for most
countertop microwaves.


Also, I never really thunk aboutit but how much space DOES there need
to be between the bottom of the cabinets and the top of the fridge?

I leave about 4" ... just enough room for SWMBO room to stack her TV and
coffee trays, and not enough room to put anything on top of the refrigerator
that would block the cabinet doors. Check your refrigerator manufacturer's
recommendation for clearance for your particular model.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

The reason I suggest the BORG for ideas is that they sell kitchen cabinets
sized to industry standard widths and it is a good place to see, touch and
feel.

However, I guarantee that if you do a reasonable job on your own kitchen,
when you walk back through the BORG after you're finished with yours, their
cabinets will ALL look cheap, no matter how good they look now.

Since you are doing this for the first time, grab a copy of a cabinet
company catalog like KraftMaid, etc. ... they generally have pages that show
box sizes and shapes for different.situations and will give you some more
ideas.

Tip: Since you remarked that you may buy the doors and drawer fronts, you
will usually find it easier/cheaper to do the doors by dimensioning your
cabinets to respect the standard widths, or multiples thereof:

The production kitchen cabinets you buy are generally sized in 3" increments
as to width, i.e., 12", 15", 18", 21", 24", 27", etc.

Get a copy of John Paquay's book for your basic boxes ... forget all the
others, except for ideas and installation tips.

Stand on the backs of those who have gone before you and you won't go wrong,
despite any inexperience. By the time you make your second cabinet, you'll
likely be "experienced" enough to do the entire job without further worry.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
Holy cow. I actually DID think of this. I thought it might be
'cheating' though. Part of me is scared to do that because they will
simply suck SWMBO in and make her think she wants that junk. She is a
tough sell in the first place.

And since she is such a tough sell, I was wondering if I should maybe
start with something that the entire world doesn't see but she will.
Another room that needs spruced up is the master bathroom. I could
start out by making a vanity, a medicine chest, and a cabinet above
the toilet. That may be a good starting point for this project.

Of course, I need to do it around me getting my Master's degree,
activities the two kids partake in, and just, well, life. Luckily,
the relatively high cost of remodeling a kitchen and a bathroom makes
both of us slow down and really think about what we want.

Any thoughts as to practicing on the bathroom cabinetry before
attempting to build the kitchen cabinets?






"Swingman" wrote in message
tnews.com...
Got a BORG close by? Measure your space and get them design one for you
using their software and one of their showroom models that you/SWMBO
like.
They do it for free here.

All you need is one design to get the idea of what they are up to. That
will
help you with your own planning.

Break a leg ...

The Kraftmaid catalog is a really neat idea. We have walked through
the kitchen area in our local stores and I have shaken my head for
years at their ware.

I already ordered John Paquay's book--yesterday. Heck, I even had the
pipe dream that it may be in the mail when I got home! I have also
been out to his site and read a bunch of stuff several different
times. I tried out his suggestions in the "How to achieve an
incredible hand-rubbed oil finish." link and got an old cherry dresser
to come out smoother than a piece of glass. I must touch part of that
durn thing 10 times a day. It's just a shame that others don't
appreciate that and I have no idea why. Everybody in my life looks at
it, touches it, makes a face, and says, "Yeah. That is smooth, huh?"
Yoi!!!

I think I am going to more-or-less limited, however, in how the
kitchen will end up looking. I may be able to do some things like
make the top and bottom cabinet openings on a 45-degree angle (if you
know what I mean). I may be able to make the wall units either be
somewhat higher or put smallish one above. There is opportunuity to
put two new ones over the fridge, like I said. And the old dresser I
was talking about is being used "temporarily" (for 14 years) as a
microwave cart. It is great for storage but it is not deep enough.
It fits the entire width of the wall between the entry way and the
corner but there needs to be cabinets there. Also above it. I see
the opportunity to add two small cabinets, two or three floor cabinets
to replace the dresser, and two or three wall units above them. Other
than that, I am guessing I can simply measure what I already have. My
wife likes the combination of drawers and cabinets. I may see fit to
add another set of drawers someplace when replacing the dresser.

All in all, the Kraftmaid catalog will come in real handy. As will a
before and after visit to the Borg. A little cheating with their
kitchen designers. And a LOT of time.

My guess is that there will be more than enough suggestions in the
book I ordered as well as the others mentioned that I will know what
to use on the inside. But I think I have another question. Should I
use that, what's it called, melemaine or somehting like that? How
does it hold screws? I would be afraid that it would be very easy to
strip the hole. Would it maybe be a decent idea to use 3/4" plywood
and cover the inside with something like white formica? Sort of make
my own stuff but not use the stupid particle board? Maybe use MDF
covered with formica? Maybe simply do a little more research before I
start??


"Swingman" wrote in message tnews.com...
The reason I suggest the BORG for ideas is that they sell kitchen cabinets
sized to industry standard widths and it is a good place to see, touch and
feel.

However, I guarantee that if you do a reasonable job on your own kitchen,
when you walk back through the BORG after you're finished with yours, their
cabinets will ALL look cheap, no matter how good they look now.

Since you are doing this for the first time, grab a copy of a cabinet
company catalog like KraftMaid, etc. ... they generally have pages that show
box sizes and shapes for different.situations and will give you some more
ideas.

Tip: Since you remarked that you may buy the doors and drawer fronts, you
will usually find it easier/cheaper to do the doors by dimensioning your
cabinets to respect the standard widths, or multiples thereof:

The production kitchen cabinets you buy are generally sized in 3" increments
as to width, i.e., 12", 15", 18", 21", 24", 27", etc.

Get a copy of John Paquay's book for your basic boxes ... forget all the
others, except for ideas and installation tips.

Stand on the backs of those who have gone before you and you won't go wrong,
despite any inexperience. By the time you make your second cabinet, you'll
likely be "experienced" enough to do the entire job without further worry.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

Ray Kinzler wrote:
Holy cow. I actually DID think of this. I thought it might be
'cheating' though. Part of me is scared to do that because they will
simply suck SWMBO in and make her think she wants that junk. She is a
tough sell in the first place.


Like you said, it's awful hard to reply to all posts.

1)I have been cursed. As a child in the late '60s Mom dragged us to
Williamsburg on most of our vacations. I figured there were better
places to go. But it had it's effect. From childhood I've pretty much
known what is and isn't junk.

2) Before building be very very careful, Think about it Man!! You say
you have little experience and I'm guessing very little tooling. You are
staring an addiction square in the face. Even if you get by with the
minimum of tooling when the projects done you'll still have those tools.
What are you going to do with them? Let them Rot? You'll probably start
another project and need just one more tool, then another project and
another tool, then another and another ....

3) My brother in law built some shelves in a closet. I went over to see,
they looked fine. Then he starts pointing out stuff .... I told him!

What I told him was: When you build something you know where every
breakout, every splinter and miss drilled hole is, you know every flaw.
And you see them all. Your friends will be impressed, your wife will be
ecstatic, you'll wonder how that splinter in the lower left corner
doesn't scream to be seen.

It doesn't, get over it. Eventually you wont see it either.


4)
a) My wife is 4' 11", standard countertop height is too tall for her to
work comfortably. It hurt me to see her wash dishes while holding her
elbows away from her sides.

b) I have never liked standard width countertops in the sink area. It
has always crowded the sink too close to the wall making it difficult to
clean behind.

c) I'm going to build a set of 'L' cabinets. One legs wall is 89 1/2"
from the crotch to the doorway/ passage. I set up a temporary counter to
live with to see if a counter close to the door will be a problem. After
a year, it isn't (kitchen layout and traffic patterns).

Think the BORG will have something 88" long?

d) When we moved here the kitchen sucked, for real. I lived with it long
enough I don't want to think about it. Suffice it to say it was not a
work area. It was done with standard cabinets.

Conclusion: Standard kitchen cabinets don't always work. Fact they can
be a hindrance. If your building them yourself you can make what you want.


5) Tools. Specifically the cost of tooling. Go to Borg, total what a set
of cabinets you could get by with will set you back. Contact a
cabinetmaker, see how much it will cost to get just what you want. Now
price what tools and materials will cost for you to build them.

Guess will cost the least. Probably by a substantial amount.

6) Satisfaction. No matter how many splinters I see I still smile
because it's my creation, I built these things.


Mayhaps I will write on this more later, SWMBO wants to go to BORG, put
a few more pennies on the bill,



she just asked if I was going to get ready.

Later


--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

Ray,

Many specialty lumber dealers even in small towns now stock ( or can order)
pre-finished hardwood plywood. I am going to use pre-finished (one side
only) 3/4 birch plywood for all of my cabinets. (finished side in,
unfinished sides all covered up by end panels and cabinet next to it)

The result will be sturdy, no hassle finishing an inside box, and will save
a lot of time and fumes.

Good luck!


Dennis Slabaugh, Hobbyist Woodworker
www.woodworkinghobby.com



"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message
om...
The Kraftmaid catalog is a really neat idea. We have walked through
the kitchen area in our local stores and I have shaken my head for
years at their ware.

I already ordered John Paquay's book--yesterday. Heck, I even had the
pipe dream that it may be in the mail when I got home! I have also
been out to his site and read a bunch of stuff several different
times. I tried out his suggestions in the "How to achieve an
incredible hand-rubbed oil finish." link and got an old cherry dresser
to come out smoother than a piece of glass. I must touch part of that
durn thing 10 times a day. It's just a shame that others don't
appreciate that and I have no idea why. Everybody in my life looks at
it, touches it, makes a face, and says, "Yeah. That is smooth, huh?"
Yoi!!!

I think I am going to more-or-less limited, however, in how the
kitchen will end up looking. I may be able to do some things like
make the top and bottom cabinet openings on a 45-degree angle (if you
know what I mean). I may be able to make the wall units either be
somewhat higher or put smallish one above. There is opportunuity to
put two new ones over the fridge, like I said. And the old dresser I
was talking about is being used "temporarily" (for 14 years) as a
microwave cart. It is great for storage but it is not deep enough.
It fits the entire width of the wall between the entry way and the
corner but there needs to be cabinets there. Also above it. I see
the opportunity to add two small cabinets, two or three floor cabinets
to replace the dresser, and two or three wall units above them. Other
than that, I am guessing I can simply measure what I already have. My
wife likes the combination of drawers and cabinets. I may see fit to
add another set of drawers someplace when replacing the dresser.

All in all, the Kraftmaid catalog will come in real handy. As will a
before and after visit to the Borg. A little cheating with their
kitchen designers. And a LOT of time.

My guess is that there will be more than enough suggestions in the
book I ordered as well as the others mentioned that I will know what
to use on the inside. But I think I have another question. Should I
use that, what's it called, melemaine or somehting like that? How
does it hold screws? I would be afraid that it would be very easy to
strip the hole. Would it maybe be a decent idea to use 3/4" plywood
and cover the inside with something like white formica? Sort of make
my own stuff but not use the stupid particle board? Maybe use MDF
covered with formica? Maybe simply do a little more research before I
start??


"Swingman" wrote in message
tnews.com...
The reason I suggest the BORG for ideas is that they sell kitchen
cabinets
sized to industry standard widths and it is a good place to see, touch
and
feel.

However, I guarantee that if you do a reasonable job on your own
kitchen,
when you walk back through the BORG after you're finished with yours,
their
cabinets will ALL look cheap, no matter how good they look now.

Since you are doing this for the first time, grab a copy of a cabinet
company catalog like KraftMaid, etc. ... they generally have pages that
show
box sizes and shapes for different.situations and will give you some
more
ideas.

Tip: Since you remarked that you may buy the doors and drawer fronts,
you
will usually find it easier/cheaper to do the doors by dimensioning your
cabinets to respect the standard widths, or multiples thereof:

The production kitchen cabinets you buy are generally sized in 3"
increments
as to width, i.e., 12", 15", 18", 21", 24", 27", etc.

Get a copy of John Paquay's book for your basic boxes ... forget all the
others, except for ideas and installation tips.

Stand on the backs of those who have gone before you and you won't go
wrong,
despite any inexperience. By the time you make your second cabinet,
you'll
likely be "experienced" enough to do the entire job without further
worry.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

In California, the "code" is 18" from the top of your countertop surface
to the underside of your upper cabinet...

Alain

Ray Kinzler wrote:

Juergen,

I am just planning on the 'normal' distance between the countertop and
the bottom of the upper cabinets to place my microwave. Is that not
enough space?

Also, I never really thunk aboutit but how much space DOES there need
to be between the bottom of the cabinets and the top of the fridge?



Be careful not to obstruct the cooling vents of the microwave and the
airflow behinde the fridge, just remember that the microwave produces
as much "unwanted" heat which has to be blown away as it produces heat
in the food, and that the fridges efficiency drops to nothing if the
backside has no cooling airflow.

--
MZ?

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:05:55 -0800, "A.Pismo Clam"
wrote:

In California, the "code" is 18" from the top of your countertop surface
to the underside of your upper cabinet...

Alain

18" is indeed the typical distance between countertop and bottom edge
of the upper cabinets. It's 18" because the countertop is at a 36"
height. Wall cabinets are typically installed with their tops at 84",
and the 'standard' wall cabinet height is 30"... so 84-36-30=18.

There's nothing that says you HAVE to maintain that distance, and
shortening it slightly (2") won't have an enormous impact on
usability. There's also nothing that says you can't mount your wall
cabinets higher (say 90") and have a nice 24" vertical clear space...
or stick with 18" and build 36" tall wall cabinets instead of 30"...
or go to 20" clear and... well, you get the idea. These are all
considerations and options which become available to you when you
choose to build your own cabinetry.

The 36" countertop height is a defacto standard, however, and
shouldn't be messed with in general, or you may end up not being able
to install things like dishwashers, trash compactors, garbage
disposers, etc. In the other hand, there's no reason you can't have
*some portion* of your countertop and base cabinetry somewhat higher
or lower than 36". A section of slightly lower countertop can create a
much more pleasant and comfortable work surface for short people, and
likewise a taller countertop for tall people.

With the tops mounted at 84", wall cabinets above ranges and
refrigerators are typically 15" or 12" tall. 15" above a range works
perfectly for range hoods, and pretty well even for large built-in
over-the-range microwaves. 12" is a bit nicer. 15" wall cabinets will
be fine for the vast majority of refrigerators, but there are a few
that will require a little extra clearance. It's wise when laying out
out your new cabinets to shop around for refrigerators and check the
dimensions of your next likely model. But with 12" uppers, you'll be
covered. Again, there is nothing to say you can't have 14" cabinets
above your range or refrigerator. Just be sure you have considered the
present and all likely future ramifications. Also be sure to leave
exactly 30" or 36" of clear width for a slide-in range, and at least
36" for a refrigerator. There are quite a number of refrigerators
measuring 35-1/2"+/- w, which is a pretty darned tight fit. You can do
it, but it's not easy to slide the fridge in and out.

As a side note, modern refrigerators need very little clear space. In
fact if you look at the bottom front of your fridge, you'll see that
the air louver typically only provides about 40-50% free (open) area.
Almost all modern refrigerators include fans to drive the air through
the mechanical compartment, so leaving a couple inches clear along the
top is generally plenty. Do check with the fridge manufacturer to see
if they have a recommendation. Many no longer do, since they assume
you can't possibly have a fit tight enough to starve their compressor
of ventilation. At least that's what the manufacturer's reps say.

John


Ray Kinzler wrote:

Juergen,

I am just planning on the 'normal' distance between the countertop and
the bottom of the upper cabinets to place my microwave. Is that not
enough space?

Also, I never really thunk aboutit but how much space DOES there need
to be between the bottom of the cabinets and the top of the fridge?



John Paquay


"Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets"
http://home.insightbb.com/~jpaquay/shop.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
With Glory and Passion No Longer in Fashion
The Hero Breaks His Blade. -- Kansas, The Pinnacle, 1975
------------------------------------------------------------------

On 11 Nov 2003 11:02:09 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:

I already ordered John Paquay's book--yesterday. Heck, I even had the
pipe dream that it may be in the mail when I got home!

Don't hold your breath -- you should have it Friday :-)
(Veteran's Day and all that...)

I have also
been out to his site and read a bunch of stuff several different
times. I tried out his suggestions in the "How to achieve an
incredible hand-rubbed oil finish." link and got an old cherry dresser
to come out smoother than a piece of glass. I must touch part of that
durn thing 10 times a day. It's just a shame that others don't
appreciate that and I have no idea why. Everybody in my life looks at
it, touches it, makes a face, and says, "Yeah. That is smooth, huh?"
Yoi!!!

A nice wood finish can make perverts of us all.

Should I
use that, what's it called, melemaine or somehting like that? How
does it hold screws? I would be afraid that it would be very easy to
strip the hole.

Depends on what the screw and hole are for. But melamine over
particleboard is a commonly used material, even if among the least
expensive available.

Would it maybe be a decent idea to use 3/4" plywood
and cover the inside with something like white formica?

This can be a worthwhile upgrade. But neither plywood nor Formica are
inexpensive, so consider whether they're really warranted. The Formica
will provide better wear resistance, but the added strength provided
by the plywood may or may not be warranted.

Sort of make
my own stuff but not use the stupid particle board? Maybe use MDF
covered with formica?

Another viable option, and worth considering.

Maybe simply do a little more research before I
start??

There you go.

John

John Paquay


"Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets"
http://home.insightbb.com/~jpaquay/shop.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
With Glory and Passion No Longer in Fashion
The Hero Breaks His Blade. -- Kansas, The Pinnacle, 1975
------------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:11:20 GMT, John Paquay
brought forth from the murky depths:

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 07:05:55 -0800, "A.Pismo Clam"
wrote:

In California, the "code" is 18" from the top of your countertop surface
to the underside of your upper cabinet...

Alain

18" is indeed the typical distance between countertop and bottom edge
of the upper cabinets. It's 18" because the countertop is at a 36"
height. Wall cabinets are typically installed with their tops at 84",
and the 'standard' wall cabinet height is 30"... so 84-36-30=18.
-snip-

Gee, John. After getting all that info we no longer have
to buy your book. wink

P.S: Pg4 of your pdf didn't show up for me yesterday when
I was looking over your site and saw the sample PDF. You
might want to check into it. (both IE and NN don't see it)


-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 05:09:57 GMT, Larry Jaques
wrote:

-snip-

Gee, John. After getting all that info we no longer have
to buy your book. wink

P.S: Pg4 of your pdf didn't show up for me yesterday when
I was looking over your site and saw the sample PDF. You
might want to check into it. (both IE and NN don't see it)

Thanks for the heads up, Larry.
There should be six total sheets in the sample pdf, although one of
those will be blank. The manual page numbers will not match the pdf
sheet numbers, but the pdf sheet #4 is the one that should be blank.
It's not like that in the actual manual, only in the pdf sample. I
just checked it and it came up as expected for me.

Just for the record, I don't publish this manual for the money -- my
time probably would be more profitably spent panhandling or collecting
aluminum foil and bits of string. By the time I pay for copying and
printing, binding, envelopes, postage, labels, and the like, I
sometimes wonder if I'm actually paying people to take the thing off
my hands.

I've long considered publishing the whole manual in a downloadable
electronic (pdf) format, but I haven't yet made that jump due to
considerations of the whole copyright/ intellectual property (and I
use that term loosely) issue -- but that option remains a definite
possibility. If anybody has thoughts on that issue, please feel free
to email me (it's almost certainly too far off-topic for the
newsgroup).

John

John Paquay


"Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets"
http://home.insightbb.com/~jpaquay/shop.html
------------------------------------------------------------------
With Glory and Passion No Longer in Fashion
The Hero Breaks His Blade. -- Kansas, The Pinnacle, 1975
------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paquay writes:

Just for the record, I don't publish this manual for the money -- my
time probably would be more profitably spent panhandling or collecting
aluminum foil and bits of string. By the time I pay for copying and
printing, binding, envelopes, postage, labels, and the like, I
sometimes wonder if I'm actually paying people to take the thing off
my hands.

I've long considered publishing the whole manual in a downloadable
electronic (pdf) format, but I haven't yet made that jump due to
considerations of the whole copyright/ intellectual property (and I
use that term loosely) issue -- but that option remains a definite
possibility. If anybody has thoughts on that issue, please feel free
to email me (it's almost certainly too far off-topic for the
newsgroup).

How about instead publishing it on a CD...less work, lower publishing cost,
mailing expenses much lower (even with a bubble wrap protected envelope,
mailing should run under a buck a copy). The user gets to print only those
pages that are absolutely needed in the shop.

The copyright issue shouldn't be any more of a problem than it is with a print
manual: most scanners today can turn your print manual into a superb copy in
minutes, with reproduction close to original quality. My 200 buck Epson 3170 is
a case in point, with a 3200 dpi resolution on smaller pages, easily doing 600+
dpi on 8-1/2 x 11. You're beat before you start, really, so your best bet is
to lower costs enough so you actually make a couple bucks on the manual. If
someone needs printed material, they can print out the pages and take them into
the shop...the great thing is that if coffee, finish, glue gets on the printed
material, it's easy to print fresh.

You can't really stop thieves. Basically, depending on the fact that most
people are honest works about as well as anything else the average Joe can
afford.

Set it in PDF, copy it to CD and you might increase your profits by reducing
printing costs and mailing costs.

Good luck.

Charlie Self

"Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same
function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of
things." Sir Winston Churchill

John,

What I was trying to say was that they run their hand or fingers
across the wood and say, "Yeah, it is smooth." and continue on their
way.

In other words, they are NOT impressed!

I do not know what their problem is and I keep askinig them to touch
it again and again and again, hoping they will somehow understand.
Some, like my wife, say that it's almost TOO smooth to be real and
they almost don't like it.

They are crazy, man, I'm tellin' ya! I guess I'm the only pervert...

All I have to say is that if the advice in your book on how to build
cabinets is even 1/3 as good as that small article on getting a
beautiful handrubbed finish, I may have to go into business.

John Paquay wrote in message . ..

On 11 Nov 2003 11:02:09 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:

I have also
been out to his site and read a bunch of stuff several different
times. I tried out his suggestions in the "How to achieve an
incredible hand-rubbed oil finish." link and got an old cherry dresser
to come out smoother than a piece of glass. I must touch part of that
durn thing 10 times a day. It's just a shame that others don't
appreciate that and I have no idea why. Everybody in my life looks at
it, touches it, makes a face, and says, "Yeah. That is smooth, huh?"
Yoi!!!

A nice wood finish can make perverts of us all.

I am always amused at the reaction when folks walk in my house and see that
most of my furniture is hand made. It's a gender thing for the most part.
Most of the men are NOT impressed, and about half of the women are.

Of the few men that are impressed, most of those will immediately tell you
how you could of done better on the finish, etc.

Of the women that are impressed, and about half of those make we wish I was
single and 20 years younger, they are that impressed!

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Ray Kinzler" wrote in message

What I was trying to say was that they run their hand or fingers
across the wood and say, "Yeah, it is smooth." and continue on their
way.

In other words, they are NOT impressed!

John Paquay wrote:

Just be sure you have considered the
present and all likely future ramifications.



And prepare to go mad!



As a side note, modern refrigerators need very little clear space. In
fact if you look at the bottom front of your fridge, you'll see that
the air louver typically only provides about 40-50% free (open) area.


In the future ramifications department, Wife and I checked and measured
many refrigerators.

Damned near all the mid range and above Fridges had sealed backs. We
were told they are '0' clearance and need only enough room to get them
in and out of their space. Obviously this is something I'll research.


JOHN:

Thanks for writing this. I think. It's in my archive. I'll read and
think about this a few more times.



--

Mark

N.E. Ohio


Never argue with a fool, a bystander can't tell you apart. (S. Clemens,
A.K.A. Mark Twain)

When in doubt hit the throttle. It may not help but it sure ends the
suspense. (Gaz, r.moto)

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:36:54 GMT, John Paquay
brought forth from the murky depths:

Thanks for the heads up, Larry.
There should be six total sheets in the sample pdf, although one of
those will be blank. The manual page numbers will not match the pdf
sheet numbers, but the pdf sheet #4 is the one that should be blank.
It's not like that in the actual manual, only in the pdf sample. I
just checked it and it came up as expected for me.

Huh? "I made a sample file and left a page intentionally blank"?!?
I expect to see an occasional blank page in a book but not in
someone's advertising "brochure". Your mileage obviously varies.


Just for the record, I don't publish this manual for the money -- my
time probably would be more profitably spent panhandling or collecting
aluminum foil and bits of string. By the time I pay for copying and
printing, binding, envelopes, postage, labels, and the like, I
sometimes wonder if I'm actually paying people to take the thing off
my hands.

It's good that you're doing it. Kudos. Speaking of panhandling,
I could always trade you one of my "Will Work For Food" kits for
one of your books.


I've long considered publishing the whole manual in a downloadable
electronic (pdf) format, but I haven't yet made that jump due to
considerations of the whole copyright/ intellectual property (and I
use that term loosely) issue -- but that option remains a definite
possibility. If anybody has thoughts on that issue, please feel free
to email me (it's almost certainly too far off-topic for the
newsgroup).

If you did that and just put up a donation button, you'd stop
incurring the printing costs and rack up pure profit, plus it
wouldn't be a time burden on you. People are now copying entire
books on their scanners and selling them, so a small one (31pgs?)
like yours has certainly already been snatched. Perhaps you should
jump in there and get your share before the bad guys do.

G'luck either way.


-------------------------------------------------------------
* * Humorous T-shirts Online
* Norm's Got Strings * Wondrous Website Design
* * http://www.diversify.com
-------------------------------------------------------------

A blank page in a PDF is usually left for printing if one wants it in paper
form. Occasionally, but not often, it's also left for organization and to
divide sections.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Huh? "I made a sample file and left a page intentionally blank"?!?
I expect to see an occasional blank page in a book but not in
someone's advertising "brochure". Your mileage obviously varies.

"Trent©" wrote in message
...
On 11 Nov 2003 11:02:09 -0800, (Ray Kinzler)
wrote:


My guess is that there will be more than enough suggestions in the
book I ordered as well as the others mentioned that I will know what
to use on the inside.

Coupla more suggestions, Ray...

1. Put slides on all the shelves in the base cabinet. Makes it real
convenient to get at things at the back.

2. Build 'baskets' to mount to the insides of the base cabinet
doors...for things that you'll wanna git to very often...like wax
paper and other wrapping rolls, Windex, sponges, etc.

3. Don't forget to install a kick plate.

4. Think about building a coupla pull-out cutting boards.

If yer gonna BUY the doors, buy them first...then build your shell
size and openings around the doors.

But I think I have another question. Should I
use that, what's it called, melemaine or somehting like that? How
does it hold screws? I would be afraid that it would be very easy to
strip the hole. Would it maybe be a decent idea to use 3/4" plywood
and cover the inside with something like white formica?

Definitely use plywood. The inside can be lined with all manner of
thing...contact paper, etc.

Good luck...you'll have fun.

P.S. Consider building a separate cabinet for the microwave. That's
what I did...a 2 tier. Micro on the top...under it a counter top and
pull-out cutting board...big drawer under that...2 sliding shelves
behind doors under that. Sits next to the stove. Micro is eye level.

i put it behind a tambour door, with a countertop space level with the
bottom of the microwave just next to it. that makes it easy to set something
down when putting things in or taking things out, and you can hide it
easily. make the cabinet above it be the full depth of the counter, and then
make the tambour door flush with the cabinet doors above and below.


Have a nice week...

Trent

Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity!

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az