Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Went to the WOODWORKS 2003 show in Nashville Saturday .. .. .. spoke
with a lady from WOODCRAFT who offered me a catalog and a coupon good
during their Grand Opening .. .. .. I half jokingly declined, saying I
was still mad at WOODCRAFT for the clamp fiasco. She said if many more
folks hold out because of that, their Grand Opening might well be a
bankruptcy sale. Seems there were a lot of folks showing up for the
sale and leaving empty handed. She said each store was allotted 40
clamps in each of 3 sizes or 120 total. There are 70+ stores in the
country. That comes to 8400 clamps out in the field. If WOODCRAFT
bought 15,000 clamps total, that left 6,600 clamps in stock for the
midnight madness online sale. Assuming at least SOME were set aside
for employees and "special;" friends, there were probably less than
6,000 available for sale online. At 12/customer, that left enough for
500 orders, or approximately 10 per state. I still think they under
ordered by a tremendous margin.

--


__ Bob __

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Christopher asks:

I just don't get the anger at Woodcraft over this. I didn't get any clamps
out of the deal and I'm not angry at them at all though I sure would have
liked to have grabbed a few. Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply every
woodworker in America?

I think you missed the point of those who are angry. They had CONFIRMED orders,
which were then turned back, refused, etc.

Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to be
common." Satchel Paige

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"___ Bob ___" wrote in message
...
Went to the WOODWORKS 2003 show in Nashville Saturday .. .. .. spoke
with a lady from WOODCRAFT who offered me a catalog and a coupon good
during their Grand Opening .. .. .. I half jokingly declined, saying I
was still mad at WOODCRAFT for the clamp fiasco.


I just don't get the anger at Woodcraft over this. I didn't get any clamps
out of the deal and I'm not angry at them at all though I sure would have
liked to have grabbed a few. Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply every
woodworker in America? If your local Mercedes dealer decides to mark down
their cars to a level the average Joe is willing to pay and they sell out
before you get there are you going to get mad at them and beat them up the
way Woodcraft has been over this? 15,000 clamps @ 12 per person means 1250
people could have gotten a great deal on the clamps. We all know that many
people weren't able to get in on the deal because some were buying multiple
times but there are still a bunch of happy wood butchers out there now.
Woodcraft didn't turn this into a "fiasco", woodworkers did. BTW, this is
not directed at you in particular Bob.

-Chris

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Christopher" wrote in message


Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply every
woodworker in America?

They should have planned the sale date better. If they checked my buying
history, most large purchases are the weekend after payday. All they had to
do was check their sales database, do an analysis, and schedule the sale for
this weekend coming up.

Due to their short sightedness, I'm going to be clamp impaired for months to
come. I take no responsibility for this as they could have done better.
Ed

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"Christopher" wrote in message


Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply
every
woodworker in America?

They should have planned the sale date better. If they checked my buying
history, most large purchases are the weekend after payday. All they had
to
do was check their sales database, do an analysis, and schedule the sale
for
this weekend coming up.

Due to their short sightedness, I'm going to be clamp impaired for months
to
come. I take no responsibility for this as they could have done better.
Ed

Ed,

EXACTLY. In fact, if I were you I wouldn't stop whining about them until
they send me a dozen clamps postage free. You might try using rubber bands
until they get around to this. I can't belive they are so insensitive.

-Jack

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Christopher asks:

I just don't get the anger at Woodcraft over this. I didn't get any
clamps
out of the deal and I'm not angry at them at all though I sure would have
liked to have grabbed a few. Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply
every
woodworker in America?

I think you missed the point of those who are angry. They had CONFIRMED
orders,
which were then turned back, refused, etc.

Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to
be
common." Satchel Paige


My understanding, as well as my own experience with the Woodcraft online
sale, was that the order was never "confirmed" but said "order pending
confirmation" or something like that. I woke up the next day with an email
that said part of my order was sold out due to the clamps already being out
of stock by the time I put those clamps in my "cart". I'm not mad at
Woodcraft at all...it was clear enough to me (based on the message as well
as the obvious slowness of the whole system) that it was possible my items
wouldn't be available to me.

PJ

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"___ Bob ___" wrote in message ...
Went to the WOODWORKS 2003 show in Nashville Saturday .. .. .. spoke
with a lady from WOODCRAFT who offered me a catalog and a coupon good
during their Grand Opening .. .. .. I half jokingly declined, saying I
was still mad at WOODCRAFT for the clamp fiasco. She said if many more
folks hold out because of that, their Grand Opening might well be a
bankruptcy sale. Seems there were a lot of folks showing up for the
sale and leaving empty handed. She said each store was allotted 40
clamps in each of 3 sizes or 120 total. There are 70+ stores in the
country. That comes to 8400 clamps out in the field. If WOODCRAFT
bought 15,000 clamps total, that left 6,600 clamps in stock for the
midnight madness online sale. Assuming at least SOME were set aside
for employees and "special;" friends, there were probably less than
6,000 available for sale online. At 12/customer, that left enough for
500 orders, or approximately 10 per state. I still think they under
ordered by a tremendous margin.

Woodcraft employees weren't allowed to buy them (at least the ones in
the retail stores). My father-in-law works in such a store, and could
not buy any for himself.

The stock that they had in the store lasted until Saturday afternoon.
I stopped by Friday afternoon and picked up 6 clamps for myself, and
they still had a pretty good stack of them left over.

It kinda sucks that everybody who wanted them couldn't get them, but
has anybody considered the possibility that Jorgensen may not have
allowed Woodcraft to buy as many as they wanted? It sounds like
Jorgensen made no money on the added production necessary to make all
of these things, so I'd expect that they limited retailers to a
certain number of clamps (to prevent them from stocking up and
screwing Jorgensen out of future profitable sales).

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Me" wrote in message
om...
snip
It kinda sucks that everybody who wanted them couldn't get them, but
has anybody considered the possibility that Jorgensen may not have
allowed Woodcraft to buy as many as they wanted? It sounds like
Jorgensen made no money on the added production necessary to make all
of these things, so I'd expect that they limited retailers to a
certain number of clamps (to prevent them from stocking up and
screwing Jorgensen out of future profitable sales).

There was a letter from the folks at Adjustable Clamp Co (maker of
Jorgensen) that stated the various companies were allowed to order as many
as they wanted for this special. However, they had to have their order in a
while ago and couldn't order more at that price.

todd

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
most large purchases are the weekend after payday. All they had to
do was check their sales database, do an analysis, and schedule the sale
for
this weekend coming up.

You're kidding, right?
Just forgot to add the emoticon, right?

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

I think we maybe oughtta consider everyone meeting at one
spot. We'll all bring torches and we'll go out and storm
each and every Woodcraft in the nation. We'll burn them all
to the ground. That'll teach them a lesson.

By the way, wear your old clothes. The rattier the better.

UA100

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

My understanding, as well as my own experience with the Woodcraft online
sale, was that the order was never "confirmed" but said "order pending
confirmation" or something like that. I woke up the next day with an email
that said part of my order was sold out due to the clamps already being out
of stock by the time I put those clamps in my "cart". I'm not mad at
Woodcraft at all...it was clear enough to me (based on the message as well
as the obvious slowness of the whole system) that it was possible my items
wouldn't be available to me.

PJ

My printed out copy clearly says "Confirmed" not pending or the like.

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Christopher asks:

I just don't get the anger at Woodcraft over this. I didn't get any
clamps
out of the deal and I'm not angry at them at all though I sure would have
liked to have grabbed a few. Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply
every
woodworker in America?

I think you missed the point of those who are angry. They had CONFIRMED
orders,
which were then turned back, refused, etc.

Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to
be
common." Satchel Paige


That may be true in some cases but certainly not all. The OP for this
thread didn't mention anything about his order being confirmed by mistake.
He only complained that Woodcraft didn't stock up on enough clamps so that
everyone wanting some could get them.

-Chris

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

In article ,
says...

My understanding, as well as my own experience with the Woodcraft online
sale, was that the order was never "confirmed" but said "order pending
confirmation" or something like that. I woke up the next day with an email
that said part of my order was sold out due to the clamps already being out
of stock by the time I put those clamps in my "cart". I'm not mad at
Woodcraft at all...it was clear enough to me (based on the message as well
as the obvious slowness of the whole system) that it was possible my items
wouldn't be available to me.

PJ

My printed out copy clearly says "Confirmed" not pending or the like.


Yours wasn't the only one.

Abe

--
Replace ONE with the numeral for return email.

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

I'm fairly certain mine said confirmed, I threw out my printout this
weekend, and don't have it to check.

In article ,
says...
"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...
Christopher asks:

I just don't get the anger at Woodcraft over this. I didn't get any
clamps
out of the deal and I'm not angry at them at all though I sure would have
liked to have grabbed a few. Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply
every
woodworker in America?

I think you missed the point of those who are angry. They had CONFIRMED
orders,
which were then turned back, refused, etc.

Charlie Self
"Ain't no man can avoid being born average, but there ain't no man got to
be
common." Satchel Paige


My understanding, as well as my own experience with the Woodcraft online
sale, was that the order was never "confirmed" but said "order pending
confirmation" or something like that. I woke up the next day with an email
that said part of my order was sold out due to the clamps already being out
of stock by the time I put those clamps in my "cart". I'm not mad at
Woodcraft at all...it was clear enough to me (based on the message as well
as the obvious slowness of the whole system) that it was possible my items
wouldn't be available to me.

PJ

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Abe" wrote in message

My printed out copy clearly says "Confirmed" not pending or the like.


Yours wasn't the only one.

Abe

Perhaps they confirmed "receipt" of the order, but not necessarily that it
would be shipped or that your CC has been approved. Instead of speculating,
if concerned, contact Woodcraft for an explanation. They would know more
that we do on the subject.
Ed

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:40:52 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

I think we maybe oughtta consider everyone meeting at one
spot. We'll all bring torches and we'll go out and storm
each and every Woodcraft in the nation. We'll burn them all
to the ground. That'll teach them a lesson.

By the way, wear your old clothes. The rattier the better.

UA100


Please wait until the class I'm taking ends. G

Barry

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Shhh ... listen carefully ... is that the gentle 'plop' of bait hitting the
placid waters?

;)

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03

"Edwin Pawlowski"wrote in message

They should have planned the sale date better. If they checked my buying
history, most large purchases are the weekend after payday. All they had
to
do was check their sales database, do an analysis, and schedule the sale
for
this weekend coming up.

Due to their short sightedness, I'm going to be clamp impaired for months
to
come. I take no responsibility for this as they could have done better.

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On 28-Oct-2003, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

Perhaps they confirmed "receipt" of the order, but not necessarily that it
would be shipped or that your CC has been approved.

Maybe the web page programmers botched it and issue a confirmation
by mistake. After all, how much software is actually reliable?

Getting one's shorts in a knot over this issue seems to me a
waste of energy. I've missed lots of opportunities - I get
over it.

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Swingman" wrote in message
news.com...


Shhh ... listen carefully ... is that the gentle 'plop' of bait hitting
the
placid waters?


Gracias! I almost bit...

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Perhaps they confirmed "receipt" of the order, but not necessarily that it
would be shipped or that your CC has been approved. Instead of speculating,
if concerned, contact Woodcraft for an explanation. They would know more
that we do on the subject.
Ed

I did call Woodcraft. The morning after the sale as they sent an
email saying one of the line items was cancelled (I was fortunate to
have gotten two line items delivered unlike others who had their whole
order cancelled). I don't see it being a CC issue as they shipped a
partial order. A cc issue would have cancelled the whole order.
Their explanation went something like this: We're sorry but our
systems couldn't keep up with demand. Consequently, orders were
placed and confirmed but the inventory had already been sold. My
gripe with Woodcraft at this point has to do with them not being
properly prepared to handle such a sale and their unwillingness to do
the right thing after the fact. They'd do much better to simply eat
the cost of filling those "confirmed" orders and retain their customer
base.

I work for Intel and learned a lot from how they handled their
Floating Point issue on the Pentium several years ago. That screw up
cost the company $500M and lost a large number of customers.
Cheers,
cc

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"James Cubby Culbertson" wrote in message

Their explanation went something like this: We're sorry but our
systems couldn't keep up with demand. Consequently, orders were
placed and confirmed but the inventory had already been sold. My
gripe with Woodcraft at this point has to do with them not being
properly prepared to handle such a sale and their unwillingness to do
the right thing after the fact. They'd do much better to simply eat
the cost of filling those "confirmed" orders and retain their customer
base.

They have probably never experienced at rush on orders like this. Being
prepared, in hindsight, may have been to install $500,000 is servers for the
one time sale.

They probably should do something for the people with confirmed orders. It
would go a long way to improving good will. As for the ones that just got
there too late, tough, You knew it was limited supplies so you have no
complaint.
Ed

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" writes:


"Christopher" wrote in message


Where do people get the idea that Woodcraft
has some obligation to have enough of a sale item in stock to supply every
woodworker in America?

They should have planned the sale date better. If they checked my buying
history, most large purchases are the weekend after payday. All they had to
do was check their sales database, do an analysis, and schedule the sale for
this weekend coming up.

Do folks not have credit cards they can pay off with the next paycheck? I
suppose there are some people who simply do not qualify for a credit card.

Brian Elfert

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Brian Elfert" wrote in message
Do folks not have credit cards they can pay off with the next paycheck? I
suppose there are some people who simply do not qualify for a credit card.

Brian Elfert

Aside from the fact it was humor, (and you missed that) I have more credit
available than I'll ever need. I just choose to buy when the money is in my
pocket. Maybe that is why I have good credit.
Ed

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

Aside from the fact it was humor, (and you missed that)

I **knew** you were fishing!!!
Ok, I suspected...
Ok, you sucked me in big time...

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"mttt" wrote in message
I **knew** you were fishing!!!
Ok, I suspected...
Ok, you sucked me in big time...



Actually, I did just what you said for the router bits that were $5 each.
I was not about to let that go by.
Ed

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:40:52 -0600, Unisaw A100
wrote:

I think we maybe oughtta consider everyone meeting at one
spot. We'll all bring torches and we'll go out and storm
each and every Woodcraft in the nation. We'll burn them all
to the ground. That'll teach them a lesson.

Crikey, Keets! You just undisputedly qualified yourself for
more gov't scrutiny and are now firmly emplanted on the HSA
and any other terrorist groupies lists, fer sher. You could
now, with the blessing of the gov't, be held without bail and
without charges for unlimited time. Ain't the Shrub's New
Democracy grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat?

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On 28-Oct-2003, Larry Jaques wrote:

You could
now, with the blessing of the gov't, be held without bail and
without charges for unlimited time.

Based on their track record, they'll never find him.

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Larry Jaques wrote:
Crikey, Keets! You just undisputedly qualified yourself for
more gov't scrutiny and are now firmly emplanted on the HSA
and any other terrorist groupies lists, fer sher. You could
now, with the blessing of the gov't, be held without bail and
without charges for unlimited time. Ain't the Shrub's New
Democracy grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat?

Now wait a minute there Larry. They can't touch me. I'm
the guy that's supposed to be watching you.

UA100, Good 'Murican and Gub'ment spy...

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 07:00:25 GMT, "Michael Daly"
brought forth from the murky depths:

On 28-Oct-2003, Larry Jaques wrote:

You could
now, with the blessing of the gov't, be held without bail and
without charges for unlimited time.

Based on their track record, they'll never find him.

Wrong. It's alway the little guys they find. They can't see a
tank rolling down the street blowing houses off their foundations
but they can always find a kid with a 1" pocket knife sitting in
school.

Just for kicks, I walked through the security at the Oakland, CA
Seattle, WA, and Anchorage, AK airports with a 9" 'weapon' in full
view. They challenged a set of 1-1/4" blunt-nosed scissors in
the bag next to me but overlooked the freshly sharpened pencil
sticking out of my pocket, glaring at the inspector. UFR! Airport
security AFTER 9/11 is more of a farce than it was before.

I hope they don't jail the student who proved that their security
sucked the biggest one ever.


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 10:20:27 GMT, Unisaw A100
brought forth from the murky depths:

Larry Jaques wrote:
Crikey, Keets! You just undisputedly qualified yourself for
more gov't scrutiny and are now firmly emplanted on the HSA
and any other terrorist groupies lists, fer sher. You could
now, with the blessing of the gov't, be held without bail and
without charges for unlimited time. Ain't the Shrub's New
Democracy grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat?

Now wait a minute there Larry. They can't touch me. I'm
the guy that's supposed to be watching you.

Tell me it ain't so, Agent ooU.


UA100, Good 'Murican and Gub'ment spy...

Oh, that's right. I forgot that it was -they- (our CIA) who
created Khadafy (Syria), Hussein (Iraq), the Shah (Iran),
and most of the other terrorists who are around today.

The movie SkullsII was on yesterday. It told of the secret
societies within the upper tier of educational institutions
and I'll bet it was based heavily on the truth.

Who IS pulling all those global strings, anyway? You's a
gummint man. Fess up. ;)


--
Music washes away from the soul the dust of everyday life.
---- --Unknown

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Larry Jaques wrote:
Who IS pulling all those global strings, anyway? You's a
gummint man. Fess up. ;)

There's this guy.

OK, I've told too much.

UA100

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

In article ogers.com,
says...
On 28-Oct-2003, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

Perhaps they confirmed "receipt" of the order, but not necessarily that it
would be shipped or that your CC has been approved.

Maybe the web page programmers botched it and issue a confirmation
by mistake. After all, how much software is actually reliable?

Getting one's shorts in a knot over this issue seems to me a
waste of energy. I've missed lots of opportunities - I get
over it.

Mike


Actually, I'm fairly certain that what they did was to set up their
system to remove things from inventory when the purchase was completed,
and not when the customer placed it in their cart. It's all water under
the bridge in any case. I have a local Rockler's that is more than
happy to take my money.

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On 30-Oct-2003, kenR wrote:

Actually, I'm fairly certain that what they did was to set up their
system to remove things from inventory when the purchase was completed,
and not when the customer placed it in their cart.

If they did that and the customer never completes the transaction, then
the item stays out of inventory even though not sold. They'd have to
design a timeout mechanism to put it back. Too long and they miss
inventory - too short and the customer finds his order suddenly
disappeared when he went to the bathroom. The web is stateless
and that makes foolproof transaction processing difficult at best.

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

I don't buy that. I cannot think of a single modern relational database that
does not have transactional processing built in ... this should not be a
problem/excuse, even in a stateless environment like the web.

It's done all the time. If what you say was the case, there would be no
Internet banking over the web.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Michael Daly" wrote in message

If they did that and the customer never completes the transaction, then
the item stays out of inventory even though not sold. They'd have to
design a timeout mechanism to put it back. Too long and they miss
inventory - too short and the customer finds his order suddenly
disappeared when he went to the bathroom. The web is stateless
and that makes foolproof transaction processing difficult at best.

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

Sorry, Mike ... I didn't mean that to sound so snippy. Had to work late and
still on the first cup of coffee. Mea culpa.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Swingman" wrote in message
I don't buy that. I cannot think of a single modern relational database
that
does not have transactional processing built in ... this should not be a
problem/excuse, even in a stateless environment like the web.

It's done all the time. If what you say was the case, there would be no
Internet banking over the web.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Michael Daly" wrote in message

If they did that and the customer never completes the transaction, then
the item stays out of inventory even though not sold. They'd have to
design a timeout mechanism to put it back. Too long and they miss
inventory - too short and the customer finds his order suddenly
disappeared when he went to the bathroom. The web is stateless
and that makes foolproof transaction processing difficult at best.

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

On 31-Oct-2003, "Swingman" wrote:

I cannot think of a single modern relational database that
does not have transactional processing built in

The relational database is hooked to the web server, not the
user. How does the relational database know what the user is
doing if the transaction takes several _independent_ steps?
Completion/rollback of a transaction has to be triggered from
something - what is that?

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

The mechanism varies. It could be as simple as a cookie, or a timeout, or as
complicated as a client side script and buffers. "Commit trans" is never
sent to the database without a specific, verifiable trigger mechanism ...
as I stated earlier, Internet banking would not be possible unless there was
a mechanism to do this in a stateless environment.

Hell, commerce on the Internet would be impossible if there was no
mechanisms for maintaining state on a web transaction.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 9/21/03


"Michael Daly" wrote in message
On 31-Oct-2003, "Swingman" wrote:

I cannot think of a single modern relational database that
does not have transactional processing built in

The relational database is hooked to the web server, not the
user. How does the relational database know what the user is
doing if the transaction takes several _independent_ steps?
Completion/rollback of a transaction has to be triggered from
something - what is that?

Mike

Continuing saga of WOODCRAFT/JORGENSEN
 

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
Oh, that's right. I forgot that it was -they- (our CIA) who
created Khadafy (Syria), Hussein (Iraq), the Shah (Iran),
and most of the other terrorists who are around today.

Khadafy is in Syria now? Man, I new some of these guys were nomadic, but
this is news - who's running Libya then? No, wait, who's on first isn't
he....

Greg