Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed. I sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact the mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes or leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob

Suggestion: Wax 'em.

--
There is only one period and no underscores in the real email address.


-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.


"Bob N" wrote in message
om...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed. I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob

In article , "Gary" wrote:
Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.

Ummm... actually, solid wood is stronger.

"Bob N" wrote in message
. com...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed. I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Doug,
Disagree with your comment on plywood over solid wood. In wood of same
dimensions, plywood is much stronger than typical wood (especially something
like poplar). You don't have the wood defects, splits, checks, etc than can
weaken solid wood.
Since plywood is laminated veneers of solid wood with the laminations
running at 90 degree angles to each others, it's resistance to breakage for
something like a bed slat is much greater than a typical piece of poplar.
Gary



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.com...
In article , "Gary"
wrote:
Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only
need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.

Ummm... actually, solid wood is stronger.

"Bob N" wrote in message
. com...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed.
I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already
silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact
the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes
or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

In article , "Gary" wrote:
Doug,
Disagree with your comment on plywood over solid wood. In wood of same
dimensions, plywood is much stronger than typical wood (especially something
like poplar). You don't have the wood defects, splits, checks, etc than can
weaken solid wood.

In my experience, such defects are far more common in plywood, than in solid
hardwood. Maybe you need to find a different lumber supplier. :-)

Since plywood is laminated veneers of solid wood with the laminations
running at 90 degree angles to each others, it's resistance to breakage for
something like a bed slat is much greater than a typical piece of poplar.

For a weak wood such as poplar, possibly, although I doubt it very much.
And you originally said "hardwood" without specifying species. At least
with respect to stronger hardwoods such as maple, ash, or oak, I'm sorry, but
that's just not right. In a bed slat made of solid wood, *all* of the wood
fibers run the entire length of the slat, whereas in a plywood slat, only
about half of the fibers run the length of the slat, and the other half run
across the slat. The latter contribute almost nothing to the bending
resistance, or load-bearing capacity, of the piece. The solid wood has more
fibers contributing to its load capacity, and hence will bear greater loads.

Plywood's laminations at 90 degrees to each other give plywood greater
dimensional stability than solid wood, and ensure that its physical properties
across length and width are similar, much more so than in solid wood -- but
they do NOT add strength. Rather, they reduce it, in exchange for greater
stability and uniformity.


Gary



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article , "Gary"
wrote:
Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only
need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.

Ummm... actually, solid wood is stronger.

"Bob N" wrote in message
. com...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed.
I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already
silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact
the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes
or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

I gotta just Gotta back Doug on this one,

By the way bed slats should be made out of Maple poplar just wount cut it
strength wise
It is also a good idea to pick out a board that has a bow to it and use them
convex side up
also I've never seen a bed slat finished yet
Sweet dreams
George


"Gary" wrote in message
. ..
Doug,
Disagree with your comment on plywood over solid wood. In wood of same
dimensions, plywood is much stronger than typical wood (especially
something
like poplar). You don't have the wood defects, splits, checks, etc than
can
weaken solid wood.
Since plywood is laminated veneers of solid wood with the laminations
running at 90 degree angles to each others, it's resistance to breakage
for
something like a bed slat is much greater than a typical piece of poplar.
Gary



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.com...
In article , "Gary"
wrote:
Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only
need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can
cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed
slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and
any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood
movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.

Ummm... actually, solid wood is stronger.

"Bob N" wrote in message
. com...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash
bed.
I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already
silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact
the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity
changes
or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Thanks, guys. I was worried about poplar's strength but the lumber dealer said it would
be fine and it was about half the price of the ash. I agree that it should be fine
because 1) there are 14 slats, each 3 1/2" wide and 3/4" thick for a full-size bed; and 2)
the construction of the mattress should always spread pressure over several slats and 3)
no one in the family is "super-sized" enough to sue a fast-food chain. I'm going to leave
them unfinished.

I put the first coat of varnish on the bed yesterday, it took on a nice honey color over
night. Of course, last night I was reading Krenov (Fine Art of Cabinetmaking) saying that
he would never put such an ugly "wet yellow" finish on beautiful ash. Well, too bad. He
doesn't use run of the mill slab-cut boards either...

Doug,
At last a real conversation about wood and woodworking in here! Sorry but
the trolls in the newsgroup are really starting to bug me. I'm almost
embarassed to open this group up somedays.
I bow to most of your arguements on strengths and stabilities. The whole
thing is really relative to what you're comparing. Oak versus poplar versus
plywoods versus pine? All sorts of differing variables in the equation as to
the strengths and weaknesses of each. One of the weaknesses you get in solid
woods is the fact you pointed out that all the wood fibers run parallel to
each other. This makes it susceptible to shearing forces. Most pieces of
hardwood don't break across the fibers, they split at some point along the
fibers. All depends on how you use the wood.

But as to our poor posters original question (from which I've digressed) - I
wouldn't waste time finishing or worrying about wood movement. Just make
sure you have enough strength in whatever you use to withstand whatever
weight you'll have bouncing on your bed. For what it's worth, I've just used
old A/C plywood scrap for bed slats on my own bed frame.

And Doug, appreciate the intelligent wood discourse. And you're right - I do
need a new lumber supplier - mine just burned down last week!

Gary


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
.com...
In article , "Gary"
wrote:
Doug,
Disagree with your comment on plywood over solid wood. In wood of same
dimensions, plywood is much stronger than typical wood (especially
something
like poplar). You don't have the wood defects, splits, checks, etc than
can
weaken solid wood.

In my experience, such defects are far more common in plywood, than in
solid
hardwood. Maybe you need to find a different lumber supplier. :-)

Since plywood is laminated veneers of solid wood with the laminations
running at 90 degree angles to each others, it's resistance to breakage
for
something like a bed slat is much greater than a typical piece of poplar.

For a weak wood such as poplar, possibly, although I doubt it very much.
And you originally said "hardwood" without specifying species. At least
with respect to stronger hardwoods such as maple, ash, or oak, I'm sorry,
but
that's just not right. In a bed slat made of solid wood, *all* of the wood
fibers run the entire length of the slat, whereas in a plywood slat, only
about half of the fibers run the length of the slat, and the other half
run
across the slat. The latter contribute almost nothing to the bending
resistance, or load-bearing capacity, of the piece. The solid wood has
more
fibers contributing to its load capacity, and hence will bear greater
loads.

Plywood's laminations at 90 degrees to each other give plywood greater
dimensional stability than solid wood, and ensure that its physical
properties
across length and width are similar, much more so than in solid wood --
but
they do NOT add strength. Rather, they reduce it, in exchange for greater
stability and uniformity.


Gary



"Doug Miller" wrote in message
y.com...
In article , "Gary"
wrote:
Why finish them? Wood movement isn't necessarily a bad thing. You only
need
to control it where it wood is joined and movement of the wood can
cause
problems with some sort of joinery or attachement. Attach the bed
slats
with a screw through the middle of the slat to your ledger strip and
any
movement will be an expansion of the wood away from the screw.
Another thought - use plywood slats instead of hardwood. No wood
movement
and much stronger across it's length than hardwood.

Ummm... actually, solid wood is stronger.

"Bob N" wrote in message
. com...
Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash
bed.
I
sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already
silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they
contact
the
mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity
changes
or
leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.
--
Bob





--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:42:42 GMT, "Bob N" wrote:

Thanks for the helpful advice on scraping vs. sanding my son's ash bed. I sanded to 220
and the first coat of finish (Tried & True Varnish Oil) is already silky.

I don't want to put oil finish on the poplar slats since they contact the mattress. Would
it be better to shellac them to reduce movement due to humidity changes or leave them
unfinished?

Thanks.

Bob:

Select your slats for as near to quartersawn as you can get.
Depending on the width of the bed, you may want to use 5/4 in
preference to 3/4 stock. If you have ash left from the bed project,
I'd use that in preference to the poplar. If the piece has a natural
bow in it, turn it up.

When I make beds I seal the slats with shellac. Shellac will not
interact with the dyes in the bed fittings, unlike inadequately cured
lacquer, varnishes, etc. By sanding and sealing the slats you will be
able to adjust them with the box spring in place without abrading the
covering and when you take the bed apart for a good cleaning, you will
be able to wipe down the slats more easily.

Do not use ply for slats. Those who would argue that it is stronger
because it is laminated are ignoring the fact that the laminations
will be at ninety degrees to the proper orientation with regards to
strength. The phenolic resins used in ply lamination are not as shock
resistant as the natural lignin in solid stock.

Some beds need more shock resistance than others.


Regards, Tom
Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker
Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania
http://users.snip.net/~tjwatson

In article , "Gary" wrote:
Doug,
At last a real conversation about wood and woodworking in here! Sorry but
the trolls in the newsgroup are really starting to bug me. I'm almost
embarassed to open this group up somedays.

I know what you mean. My wife is a ww-er, too... and she *used* to read the
group. :-(

I bow to most of your arguements on strengths and stabilities. The whole
thing is really relative to what you're comparing. Oak versus poplar versus
plywoods versus pine? All sorts of differing variables in the equation as to
the strengths and weaknesses of each. One of the weaknesses you get in solid
woods is the fact you pointed out that all the wood fibers run parallel to
each other. This makes it susceptible to shearing forces. Most pieces of
hardwood don't break across the fibers, they split at some point along the
fibers. All depends on how you use the wood.

For a bed slat, though, this doesn't matter. Suppose a four-inch-wide slat
splits right down the middle. Two, two-inch slats are just as strong.

But as to our poor posters original question (from which I've digressed) - I
wouldn't waste time finishing or worrying about wood movement. Just make
sure you have enough strength in whatever you use to withstand whatever
weight you'll have bouncing on your bed. For what it's worth, I've just used
old A/C plywood scrap for bed slats on my own bed frame.

Can't argue there. One more thing I might add: there should be some means
provided of preventing the bed rails from spreading enough that the slats can
wiggle crooked and drop out. DAMHIKT.

And Doug, appreciate the intelligent wood discourse. And you're right - I do
need a new lumber supplier - mine just burned down last week!

Mmmm, bummer. Where was that?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Doug Miller wrote:

Can't argue there. One more thing I might add: there should be some means
provided of preventing the bed rails from spreading enough that the slats
can wiggle crooked and drop out. DAMHIKT.

Yeah, especially when that happens in the middle of a vigorous round of, um,
bed bouncing...

DAMHIKT.

It's actually happened several times. In fact, we've broken three beds.

Ah, for the good old days when we used to be horny and awake at the same
time.

And FWIW I agree completely with the solid wood camp on this one. No
question about it. Plywood would make a crappy bed slat. I expect it
would delaminate and break in very short order.

We (the furniture distributor I work for) actually sell plywood slats for
some of our beds, come to think of it, but they have a support running up
the middle with feet in strategic places to cut the span of the plywood in
half.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Tom Watson wrote:

able to adjust them with the box spring in place without abrading the
covering and when you take the bed apart for a good cleaning, you will
be able to wipe down the slats more easily.

Wipe down the slats????? O_o

I can't imagine.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan responds:

provided of preventing the bed rails from spreading enough that the slats
can wiggle crooked and drop out. DAMHIKT.

Yeah, especially when that happens in the middle of a vigorous round of, um,
bed bouncing...

DAMHIKT.

It's actually happened several times. In fact, we've broken three beds.


When building the bed rail piece to hold the slats, notch it 1/4" deep or so to
hold the slats.

Charlie Self

"Middle age is when your age starts to show around your middle."
Bob Hope

Charlie Self wrote:

It's actually happened several times. In fact, we've broken three beds.


When building the bed rail piece to hold the slats, notch it 1/4" deep or
so to hold the slats.

Wouldn't help though. We actually broke the same bed three times. The
rails. Those hook plates with bed pins. Broke the wood out from around
the bed pins on one rail, replaced it with a metal rail, which made the
slats tend to fall out. Fixed the wooden rail, broke the other side, put a
metal rail on *that* side, and the slats wanted to fall out... Then we
broke the other wooden side and wound up with two metal rails on our
"antique" old pre-war bed, which looks really ugly, but after I drilled
some holes and bolted the damn slats in place, they haven't gone anywhere.

Maybe I should un-bolt the slats. Maybe it was the excitement of wondering
if the bed was about to collapse that used to put SWMBO in the mood for
lovin'.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article , Trent©
wrote:

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 19:30:45 GMT, "Bob N" wrote:

Thanks, guys. I was worried about poplar's strength but the lumber dealer
said it would
be fine and it was about half the price of the ash. I agree that it should
be fine
because 1) there are 14 slats, each 3 1/2" wide and 3/4" thick for a
full-size bed;

That's a misprint...right? You meant 4 slats...right?

I sure hope so.

Why? I've never seen a bed with as few as 4 slats. Six, minimum, and
that's with a foundation. For a mattress directly on the slats, Bob's
number and spacing sound just about right.

Some people (and much furniture) dictate that a foundation be used in
order to bring the mattress to the proper height. I consider a
foundation to be a complete waste; it takes up perfectly good storage
space.

Kevin

Silvan, great story. I don't anticipate such problems with this bed. I will use screws
to fasten three of the slats into the ledger boards on the rails to prevent rail-spread.

The rails themselves are 5 1/2" wide by 1 1/4" thick, fastened with that hook-type
hardware which is mortised into the ends and attached with three screws per plate (bought
from local Woodcraft store). I have a little concern that the top of the mortise is only
1/4" below the top of the rail - if that should ever rip out, I'll substitute wider boards
for the rails to allow more wood above the hardware.
--
Bob

On 22 Oct 2003 08:15:47 GMT, otforme (Charlie Self)
pixelated:

When building the bed rail piece to hold the slats, notch it 1/4" deep or so to
hold the slats.

Wouldn't tacking on small stop pieces be safer than notching
structural members, Charlie? Or how about a nylon strap from
head to toe with crown staples in each slat?

----
A mostly meat-powered woodworker, and proud of it.
http://diversify.com Website Application Programming

Bob N wrote:

mortise is only 1/4" below the top of the rail - if that should ever rip
out, I'll substitute wider boards for the rails to allow more wood above
the hardware. --

Depends on who uses the bed, and for what I guess.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan responds:


When building the bed rail piece to hold the slats, notch it 1/4" deep or
so to hold the slats.

Wouldn't help though. We actually broke the same bed three times. The
rails. Those hook plates with bed pins. Broke the wood out from around
the bed pins on one rail, replaced it with a metal rail, which made the
slats tend to fall out. Fixed the wooden rail, broke the other side, put a
metal rail on *that* side, and the slats wanted to fall out... Then we
broke the other wooden side and wound up with two metal rails on our
"antique" old pre-war bed, which looks really ugly, but after I drilled
some holes and bolted the damn slats in place, they haven't gone anywhere.

Atkins diet?

Seriously, when we bought a new bad early last year, they guys who delivered it
ran screws into the strip for the slats at each end of each slat. I heard some
creaking and checked the slats: not just pine, but knotty pine. I made oak
slats a week later. No more problems.

Charlie Self

"Middle age is when your age starts to show around your middle."
Bob Hope

Charlie Self wrote:

Atkins diet?

Hell no. Everyone I know who's gone on that has become completely annoying.

I *am* actually losing weight, but I'm doing it the most sustainable way.
I'm eating exactly the same food. The main thing is I stop eating when I'm
no longer hungry instead of when I can't jam another porkchop down my pie
hole.

I'm not dropping weight overnight, but I'm getting pretty close to having to
punch a new hole in my belt to keep my pants up. The damn scale says I
haven't lost anything at all, but the fact remains that my most recent
pants are so loose that I can jump out of them, and my old pants are
reasonably comfortable. If I keep this up, I'll be back in the stuff I was
wearing in college before too much longer. (Well, except I gave it all to
Goodwill in despair at about the time I bought the fat pants...

Seriously, when we bought a new bad early last year, they guys who
delivered it ran screws into the strip for the slats at each end of each
slat. I heard some creaking and checked the slats: not just pine, but
knotty pine. I made oak slats a week later. No more problems.

Our slats are decidedly crappy too. I didn't say that. We distribute only
the finest products.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

There are 14 slats because I didn't buy a boxspring, thereby saving nearly $200 and
freeing up space under the bed for rolling drawer units that I'll make later. All the
slats are clear wood. I think it will be strong enough.

As to weight, I decided a couple of years ago that I don't want to watch what I eat, so I
run 20-30 miles per week all year and paddle my sea kayak (hard, long and fast) every day
in the warm weather. Dropped 25 lbs. in 6 months and am also nearly at college weight.