Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

Personally, I try to buy the best quality tool regardless of its place of
manufacture. Having said that, I have compared Chinese made products (often
knock off repicas) to the same functional products manufactured in the US,
Japan, Germany, Canada, and Taiwan. I have yet to find a Chinese product
equal in craftsmanship to those in these other countries. If I was only
interested in cost, I could often have saved anywhere from 30%-50% of the
cost of the better product. I look at my shop as something that I am
equipping for the next 30+ years and I don't want to be replacing broken or
malfunctioning equipment because I tried to save a few bucks.

Roger

Roger
"John Horner" wrote in message
news:d_s1j.5981$XT.5534@trnddc01...
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I had
bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what, they
are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

"John Horner" wrote in message
news:d_s1j.5981$XT.5534@trnddc01...

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I try to buy U.S., Canadian, British, German etc. because the quality is
better, and I try to buy domestic because I see no reason to export jobs to
China. I suppose some cheap tools are acceptable, a garden rake or
something like that, but for jobs I care about I prefer tools that do the
job properly and will still be doing it ten or twenty years down the road,
and from what I've seen most of the tools coming out of China are still
distinctly lower quality.

On Nov 23, 1:53 am, "DGDevin" wrote:
"John Horner" wrote in message

news:d_s1j.5981$XT.5534@trnddc01...

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I try to buy U.S., Canadian, British, German etc. because the quality is
better, and I try to buy domestic because I see no reason to export jobs to
China. I suppose some cheap tools are acceptable, a garden rake or
something like that, but for jobs I care about I prefer tools that do the
job properly and will still be doing it ten or twenty years down the road,
and from what I've seen most of the tools coming out of China are still
distinctly lower quality.

That works exceptionally well when you can FIND tools manufactured in
those countries. Today, a very large percentage of woodworking tools
is manufactured in China. Some of the comments I read today are
similar to those that used to crop up about Taiwanese tools 20-25
years ago, and about Japanese products of all kinds 25 or 30 years
before that. Today, Japan leads the world in quality in several areas--
autos, cameras, among others. Taiwan isn't far behind. Today, with
very minior exceptions, tool manufacture has moved out of the U.S.
German tools retain their excellence, but also have an excellent
price, so are not for a lot of people (check both quality and price of
Festool for an example: their tools are wonderful; the prices can be
staggering).

China's tool quality is much better now than it was a few years ago. I
wonder more than a little, though, about a system of goverment that
tends to blame poor quality manufacturing on the people buying the
product for resale, as in the toy flap with Mattel which had to
apologize to the Chinese because Chinese manufacturers used lead in
children's toys. Absolutely weird by my standards, but, more than
that, it limits the incentive for manufacturers to improve products
while maintaining price.

John Horner wrote:
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer
and just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed
that I had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but
guess what, they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a
guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for
geo-political reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time
not even having to look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs
.

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

Personally I don't much worry about it. The sooner China is dragged
kicking and screaming into the First World the better--right now
they're a huge pool of cheap labor and they're going to keep
undercutting everybody's prices until they become a huge pool of
expensive labor, then they're going to become the world's largest
market and outsourcing a lot of work to places like, well, everywhere
including the US.

In the medium term a wealthy China is going to be good for the world.
Long run, who knows?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I just bought a Jet sander, Made in Taiwan. Seems like good quality,
though. I have an iron grinder stand, Made in China, but it hasn't
fallen apart yet. Not really sure where my 2006 Toyota Tundra was
made and I didn't care if it was a Ford 150, although I don't like
Chrysler RAM's repair record. I like Made in USA, Canada, maybe
Japan or Germany is good. Today, it is very difficult to NOT to buy
China goods but stay away from China tools. Buy quality!

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I look at the origin, and make the decision on a case-by-case basis.
Available alternatives are a big part of the decision. Sometimes,
finding a North American, European, or free far-eastern made
alternative is difficult to impossible.

Imported goods in general are not a problem to me, if they're well
made and not made by children or slaves.

I'm trying more and more to avoid Chinese crap.

"John Horner" wrote in message

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I'd prefer USA/Canada as it provides jobs where I have mine and it depends
on mostly US and Canadian customers.

My first goal is to find the best piece of equipment that I can afford and
that can do the job. In more and more cases, that means imported goods
because there is no other choice. Try buying a "not" made in China toaster
for less than $200. While China is my last choice, it is possible to buy
from there well made merchandise built to good specifications. I don't blame
the factory worker making 50¢ a day as much as the importer that accepts
crap and tries to sell in at an enormous profit.

Remember Pogo saying "we have met the enemy and it is us"? The first TV I
bought was a 19" B & W set that costs two weeks pay. Now a 42" LCD is a few
days pay. I had to work a couple of hours to buy a nice Van Husen shirt,
now I can buy a shirt for 15 minutes of work. We want it both ways.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I think it's clear that there are two issues here. We all want to get the
lowest price & the highest quality. There's nothing wrong with that. If the
tools coming out of China were built to a high standard it may be the end of
the debate, but maybe not. The problem for me is the loss of American jobs,
I'm not talking flag waving & beating your chest, I'm talking bread &
butter, these people. our fellow countrymen & women need jobs that pay
decently. If manufacturing was being moved because American companies can't
make ends meet that's one thing, but we are talking about maximizing
profits, maybe even obscene profiteering by companies that want to claim
they are American but really don't give a damn about it. If China ever
becomes to expensive, they will find another workforce to use in Asia or
Cuba.

"John Horner" wrote in message
news:d_s1j.5981$XT.5534@trnddc01...
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I had
bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what, they
are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

Well American would be better for this country, the U.S., but unfortunately
we have this large group that wants to make every one feel good with no one
left behind. They believe that regardless of your productivity you should
be paid equally. Because we have had to lower the standards and
expectations so that many will be automatically raised to "par" we get poor
to average quality for top dollar pricing. Those of us that still believe
that you should get what you pay for buy from other countries. Lowering the
expectations of others productivity while lowering our expectations of that
group is good for no one. It simply does not work.
Buying American does not guarantee better quality nor does it help the
economy unless we get what we pay for. Paying some one to do a **** poor
job or manufacture a sub par product is bad for the economy.

On Nov 22, 11:50 pm, John Horner wrote:
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

That is both a simple and a very complex question. Loyalties to
certain manufacturers/countries(of origin) only go so far. Sometimes
adequate is good enough and it doesn't always have to be the 'best'.
In my line of work, certain equipment MUST give me consistent results
and be absolutely reliable.
In my shop, you'll find a Milwaukee jigsaw made in Germany. A Ridgid
sander made in Germany. A German Fein vacuum made in Italy...and then
there is stuff 'assembled' in the USA.
My questions are usually the same: will it do the job? Is there a
warranty? Can I fix this myself, assuming I can get parts?

If everything else is close to equal, I will try to buy North American/
European in that order.
The exceptions are many as there are 'niche' tools that certain
manufacturers seem to do 'just better'.

r

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"John Horner" wrote in message

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for
geo-political reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time
not even having to look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs
.

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I'd prefer USA/Canada as it provides jobs where I have mine and it
depends on mostly US and Canadian customers.

My first goal is to find the best piece of equipment that I can
afford and that can do the job. In more and more cases, that means
imported goods because there is no other choice. Try buying a "not"
made in China toaster for less than $200. While China is my last
choice, it is possible to buy from there well made merchandise built
to good specifications. I don't blame the factory worker making 50¢
a
day as much as the importer that accepts crap and tries to sell in
at
an enormous profit.

Remember Pogo saying "we have met the enemy and it is us"? The
first TV I bought was a 19" B & W set that costs two weeks pay. Now
a 42" LCD is a few days pay. I had to work a couple of hours to buy
a nice Van Husen shirt, now I can buy a shirt for 15 minutes of
work.
We want it both ways.

And of course if you really want a fancy shirt most cities of any size
in the US have some Indian or Chinese gentleman who will make you as
many as you want, for US hand-work prices.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Chris wrote:
Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I think it's clear that there are two issues here. We all want to
get
the lowest price & the highest quality. There's nothing wrong with
that. If the tools coming out of China were built to a high standard
it may be the end of the debate, but maybe not. The problem for me
is
the loss of American jobs, I'm not talking flag waving & beating
your
chest, I'm talking bread & butter, these people. our fellow
countrymen & women need jobs that pay decently. If manufacturing was
being moved because American companies can't make ends meet that's
one thing, but we are talking about maximizing profits, maybe even
obscene profiteering by companies that want to claim they are
American but really don't give a damn about it. If China ever
becomes
to expensive, they will find another workforce to use in Asia or
Cuba.

Actually not--if China becomes too expensive for US businesses to make
money using Chinese labor then it will be too expensive for Chinese
businesses to make money using Chinese labor as well, and they'll be
competing for that same workforce. But when that happens they'll be
providing goods and services for a population larger than that of the
US, Japan, and the EU combined, so they're going to use it up pretty
fast. And there aren't that many untapped labor markets in Asia
anyway--South Korea is competing directly in the US market (LG,
Samsung, Hyudai, etc), Maylaysia is contracting all sorts of high tech
manufacturing (IBM used to make a lot of stuff there), I'm
occasionally seeing "made in Thailand" labels, what does that leave
really, other than North Korea, which isn't going to be a labor
provider until somebody (probably China) gets annoyed enough to
bitch-slap its leaders into at least the 14th Century.

South America and Africa have some potential, but nobody in his right
mind is going to trust either of them to provide manufactured goods
that are needed on a reliable schedule until they get stable
governments established.

As for Cuba, Cuba has a workforce smaller than the population of many
American cities--while I don't have any problem with doing business
with Cuba and think that current policies toward it are lunacy, even
at full employment it's not going to be making much inroads into the
worldwide demand for goods and services. Still, would be nice to be
able to get a Cuban cigar without having to ride to Quebec.
--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Robatoy wrote:
On Nov 22, 11:50 pm, John Horner wrote:
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer
and just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed
that I had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but
guess what, they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were
a
guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for
geo-political reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time
not even having to look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs
.

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

That is both a simple and a very complex question. Loyalties to
certain manufacturers/countries(of origin) only go so far. Sometimes
adequate is good enough and it doesn't always have to be the 'best'.
In my line of work, certain equipment MUST give me consistent
results
and be absolutely reliable.
In my shop, you'll find a Milwaukee jigsaw made in Germany. A Ridgid
sander made in Germany. A German Fein vacuum made in Italy...and
then
there is stuff 'assembled' in the USA.
My questions are usually the same: will it do the job? Is there a
warranty? Can I fix this myself, assuming I can get parts?

If everything else is close to equal, I will try to buy North
American/ European in that order.
The exceptions are many as there are 'niche' tools that certain
manufacturers seem to do 'just better'.

And then there are Japanese handsaws, that _nobody_ does like the
Japanese.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"John Horner" wrote...

Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest
[...]


I'm pro-global economy, and understand that there are some items that are best produced overseas. But I think we should use neither profiteering nor protectionism as our guide to which industries we should send overseas.

I've had poor luck with Chinese/Taiwanese made tools and machines:

3 jaw scroll chuck with reversable jaws - jaws don't line up when reversed

heavy duty 3MT live center - excessive radial play - went from the box to the lathe to the trash can.

Jet jointer - warped castings.

Grizzly table saw - burned up first motor, fence lock crushes fence rail

Grizzly jigsaw - vibration problems, breaks blades constantly; replaced with 50yr old Craftsman 18"

Grizzly "heavy duty" lathe - lightweight casting, dinky spindle; replaced with old YA J-170. While rebuilding the J-170, we opened up the Grizzly headstock and laughed at it - dinky spindle, dinkier bearings, dinkiest variable speed drive. J-170 lathe weighs twice as much as the Grizzly, and has a pair of 3-1/4" double race bearings supporting a beefy spindle.

Had always been a PC router man, but our latest made in Mexico PC router has too much preasure on the upper spindle bearing, and it runs so hot the collet gets too hot to touch, even without a load. Soon as it burns up, I'll look for a non-PC American-made router.

Here's a weird one - always used Dixon Ticonderoga pencils in the shop, bought them by the gross. Last gross were made in Mexico, and were defective. Leads constantly breaking - some pencils couldn't even be sharpened, cause the leads kept breaking in the sharpener. Email to Dixon customer service brought no response. Threw away a gross of Dixon pencils and bought a gross of Papermate American pencils - not as pretty finished, but they work fine. Sheez.



I don't mind one bit buying foreign goods where it makes sense - small electronics devices, for example, but I'll be damned if I buy another Chinese machine or large tool. It's unfortunate that we've driven American manufacturers out of business by buying cheap crap from Asia, but we've done it to ourselves. I bought a cheap Grizzly saw instead of making some sacrifices and coming up with the scratch for a Powermatic. I tried to get a 3MT live center on the cheap by buying Chinese, instead of buying a quality product from Royal.

When buying handtools at the HW store, I'll always look for American made tools & am willing to pay extra, even if it means I won't be buying a new truck or flat screen TV this year. When no American made version of a tool is available, I make a point to complain politely, but loud enough for my fellow customers to hear, to the manager that I would prefer an American made tool, as in my experience as a professional craftsman, I've found the Chinese tools to be of inferior quality, and a poor value for the money.

On another note, I recently noticed that Pumb and Crescent brands of American made tools are owned by Cooper Group, headquartered in the Bahamas so they can be "tax competitive". Here I am making small sacrifices to buy American tools and support American jobs, and these @&*@^%$* loads can't even pay there $%&#@* taxes. WTFF.



--
Timothy Juvenal
www.tjwoodworking.com

Personally I don't much worry about it. The sooner China is dragged
kicking and screaming into the First World the better--right now
they're a huge pool of cheap labor and they're going to keep
undercutting everybody's prices until they become a huge pool of
expensive labor, then they're going to become the world's largest
market and outsourcing a lot of work to places like, well, everywhere
including the US.


it is happening already.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner wrote:

Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I guess I'm part of the global economy, not always by choice..
I buy Jet, Ridgid, Craftsman, etc.. all made off shore and all good tools..
The last major tool that I bought that I'm sure was made in the States was my
Shopsmith in 1980..

IMHO, it's not where or who makes a tool, it's the quality control involved...
you can make a very good or very bad tool anywhere in the world, including in
the U.S.... YMWV


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 09:45:02 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote:


And of course if you really want a fancy shirt most cities of any size
in the US have some Indian or Chinese gentleman who will make you as
many as you want, for US hand-work prices.

--
OUCH
nice shot!


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

John Horner wrote:
Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

Most of what I've got to say isn't just about tools, but about all
'precision' purchases (i.e. optics, electronics, etc.).

Since I'm not in the US, I don't have any personal allegiance to tools made
there. My first choice is made in Canada, just because that's where Lee
Valley makes their Veritas line. :-)

Aside from that, it's a matter of quality first and political support
second. Right now I'm avoiding as much Made in USA stuff as possible. I'm
sad to see the country sliding as much as it is, but politically they're
one of the most aggressive offenders right now, and labour costs are
making their stuff overpriced more often than not.

"Made in Japan" has gone from being a sign of junk to being a justification
(not just an excuse) for premium pricing in under 20 years. Made in China
is doing the same thing now, and the curious state of affairs is that there
are some VERY good items coming out of there, mixed in with the endless
streams of crap. Handmade craftsman stuff will be outrageously expensive
no matter where it comes from, because of the work involved. Manufactured
stuff is as good as the manufacturing equipment, process, and quality
control; and that is simply a matter of crunching numbers and deciding what
market to go after. The 'cheap labour' countries have a big potential
advantage in this, because they can reach the top of the market just as
easily as anyone else, but for less money. China is starting to exploit
this now, whereas India isn't.

I'll buy the quality I want (usually the very best I can afford), and only
look at the "made in..." label if I need a second differentiator.

Colin

"Charlie Self" wrote in message
...

That works exceptionally well when you can FIND tools manufactured in
those countries. Today, a very large percentage of woodworking tools
is manufactured in China. Some of the comments I read today are
similar to those that used to crop up about Taiwanese tools 20-25
years ago, and about Japanese products of all kinds 25 or 30 years
before that.

Agreed, and as the west has transplanted its technology to China their
quality has improved greatly, consider the guitars they're making there now.
However in most cases I can still find western-made tools that are markedly
superior to the Chinese versions and not always at a much greater price,
although I'm willing to pay more for something I won't have to replace when
it dies a premature death. That will change as more companies with
manufacturing in China aim for the quality market rather than just punching
out discount-bin disposable tools. Still, when I'm looking at a display of
tools for sale I'll go for Made in America (or Britain, Germany etc.) if I
possibly can, how long that will be possible is anyone's guess.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I couldn't care less, I buy for quality and price, if it does what I
need it to do at a price I'm willing to pay, I buy it. The U.S. needs
to be able to compete in a world market, artificially picking inferior
tools at higher prices just because of where they were put together is
foolish.

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I couldn't care less, I buy for quality and price, if it does what I
need it to do at a price I'm willing to pay, I buy it. The U.S. needs
to be able to compete in a world market, artificially picking inferior
tools at higher prices just because of where they were put together is
foolish.

Certainly I wouldn't buy an inferior product just because of it's
country of manufacture, but there is also more to life than cheapness.

I don't want to live in a country which sinks to China's level in
environmental policies, lack of labor protection and government enforced
one-child-per-woman laws. Isn't there something fundamentally wrong
with forcing women to have abortions if they are about to have an
unauthorized second child?

I'm all for commercial competitiveness, but it is not possible to
compete price wise with a competitor who has a much lower set of safety,
environmental, intellectual property and human rights standards.

John

John Horner wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

I couldn't care less, I buy for quality and price, if it does what
I
need it to do at a price I'm willing to pay, I buy it. The U.S.
needs to be able to compete in a world market, artificially picking
inferior tools at higher prices just because of where they were put
together is foolish.

Certainly I wouldn't buy an inferior product just because of it's
country of manufacture, but there is also more to life than
cheapness.

I don't want to live in a country which sinks to China's level in
environmental policies, lack of labor protection and government
enforced one-child-per-woman laws. Isn't there something
fundamentally wrong with forcing women to have abortions if they are
about to have an unauthorized second child?

rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is it
wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so irresponsible
as to become pregnant in violation of the law and common sense to have
abortions.

Much else that you percieve as "wrong" about the way China treats its
population is the result of having more people than they have work
for.

I'm all for commercial competitiveness, but it is not possible to
compete price wise with a competitor who has a much lower set of
safety, environmental, intellectual property and human rights
standards.

I seem to recall the same complaints being made about Japan 40 or so
years ago. If you want them to act like they're in the First World
you have to pull them there. Boycotting them is just going to delay
the day.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:


rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is it
wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so irresponsible
as to become pregnant in violation of the law and common sense to have
abortions.


I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery in
the US was never just, although it was legal.

John

John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:


rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.


I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Nov 24, 2:22 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.

I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


Quite possibly the forced aspect of it, I'd guess.

Charlie Self wrote:
On Nov 24, 2:22 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the
people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count
is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.

I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do
with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized
slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


Quite possibly the forced aspect of it, I'd guess.

If it's not morally wrong then why is the forced aspect of it wrong?
The women know the law.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion,
but abortion is not a Christian issue.

--

-Mike-

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?

You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are non-Christian
are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter than that.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer and
just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed that I
had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but guess what,
they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were a guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for geo-political
reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time not even having to
look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs .

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?


I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of
woodworking machinery moving to china.

About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues are
similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a
result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful"
individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an hour
with an average experience level of 25 years.

While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see
first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see
cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron
that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot
that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the
powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see
literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before
it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries,
emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold,
and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that
tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I
got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really materialized.
Maybe some day.

Yesterday, I installed a kitchen sink and after spending the time to
install the brand new strainer basket (from China) I got to take it
back out because the threads were bad and would not hold the tailpiece
nut. In my life seems like this is at least a weekly occurance on
some defective chinese component. I'm slowly learning to test every
brand new chinese component before I use it to save time. Now many
times I buy it, open it in the store, test it and only leave the store
with it if it is good. Saves the trip back.

You can probably guess where I stand on the matter. If I have a
choice of a product that is made in the U.S. or any other country of
origin that has proven quality, I'll buy it. Many times there is no
choice.

I never had a problem with the Japanese grabbing market share in the
automobile business. They did it the right way, that is they made a
higher quality product and sold it at a fair price which resulted in
value. That's not the case on most things from china.

Frank

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?

You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are
non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter
than that.

Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?
You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are
non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter
than that.

Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.

AFAIK, each religion has some sort of precept against the killing of
innocents (what their definition of "innocent" is may be a little
convenient for them and not so much for somebody else, but don't think
anybody counts the unborn in that group)...

There are quite a few folks w/o much strong connection to any organized
or formal religion who find the practice for "casual" reasons or as
"morning after" birth control as repugnant on general principles
irrespective of others' viewpoints as well.

--

On Nov 22, 11:50 pm, John Horner wrote:

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?

Some tools are needed immediately for a specific job with an intended
"one time" use (A).
Others are considered useful with a foreseeable use over time, but no
immediate need/demand/requirement. (B).
Then there are those you will use regularly with some hope of
precision and "repeat-ability." (C)
Of course there are those tools that are cheaper to replace than
sharpen/repair given the intended or experienced frequency of
use." (D)
Lastly(?) there are tools you just want to experiment with to see if
the investment in the FEIN version might be worth the 10X price
differential over the chink rip-off. (E)

When you are on a tight budget, you might find the one-time biscuit
joiner from HFT will get you through the project, allow you to learn
about the tool generally and the important and superfluous features to
should you ever decide your craftsmanship warrants a fine version of
the tool. The subsequent time(s) you go to pull it out will hint at
the need for a quality replacement - e.g. can you find it, recall
where you put it as much as will the ease of use, repeatability and
the finished work.

Those eight-dollar 4" Grinders can clean a weld as well as the $50
Sears model for a fellow with a dusty Arc Welder hidden in the dark
recesses of his shop. But might not prove cost-effective for a welding
shop with a fancy TIG, arc stabilizer, etc.

A good link belt and sharp blade will go a long way toward making
theat Craftsman table saw a "gem."

My grandfather's expression "'tis a poor workman that blames his
tools," holds true today and watching that fellow on PBS ho uses
1700's versions of tools (including a foot-operated scroll saw!)
should prove that point.

Its a balance of budget, craftsmanship and need in my view and the geo-
political angle is nice cocktail talk, but impractical and unlikely to
kill NAFTA etc.

"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.

Sorry, but you'll have to do your own search. Your making of an illogical
statement does not require work on my part. If one is a non-Christian, they
do not have to be a member of an organized religion, union, fraternal
organization, political party or poker group to oppose abortion on moral
grounds. As an individual, I make my own decision on such matters and I
suspect others do also.

"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of
woodworking machinery moving to china.

About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues are
similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a
result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful"
individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an hour
with an average experience level of 25 years.

While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see
first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see
cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron
that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot
that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the
powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see
literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before
it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries,
emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold,
and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that
tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I
got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really materialized.
Maybe some day.

I understand where you are coming from. The one sentence that really stick
out is: "I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to
statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and
use it anyway." I have a problem with a company doing that.

I'd realy like to know the answers to so many questions when companies
decide to go overseas. Profit, of course, is a big motivator, but there are
many "what ifs".

The US built tools have to compete with other major brands, such as Jet and
Grizzly. In the end, what is the real cost difference when you back out the
emergency air shipments and re-work? What happens to the company reputation
when quality drops? What happens if the US manufacturing is kept in place,
but at a reduced capacity because some sales are lost to the cheaper
competition? How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
....

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

--

J. Clarke wrote:

John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:


rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.


I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


Why would one have to be a Christian to recognize that a life is being
taken by the act of abortion?


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 04:50:17 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

Over the years I have sometimes been a Buy US only tool buyer and
sometimes a whatever is cheapest that I think will do the job buyer
and just about everything in-between. Many years ago I was ashamed
that I had bought some no name Japanese combination wrenches, but
guess what, they are still good wrenches 30+ years after they were
a
guilty bargain.

Presently I'm avoiding anything Made in China as much for
geo-political reasons as anything else. That and it saves me time
not even having to look at the Harbor Freight or Grizzly catalogs
.

Where to the rest of you sit with this question?


I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of
woodworking machinery moving to china.

About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues
are
similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a
result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful"
individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an
hour
with an average experience level of 25 years.

While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see
first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see
cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron
that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot
that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the
powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see
literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before
it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries,
emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold,
and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that
tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I
got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really
materialized.
Maybe some day.

Yesterday, I installed a kitchen sink and after spending the time to
install the brand new strainer basket (from China) I got to take it
back out because the threads were bad and would not hold the
tailpiece
nut. In my life seems like this is at least a weekly occurance on
some defective chinese component. I'm slowly learning to test every
brand new chinese component before I use it to save time. Now many
times I buy it, open it in the store, test it and only leave the
store
with it if it is good. Saves the trip back.

You can probably guess where I stand on the matter. If I have a
choice of a product that is made in the U.S. or any other country of
origin that has proven quality, I'll buy it. Many times there is no
choice.

I never had a problem with the Japanese grabbing market share in the
automobile business. They did it the right way, that is they made a
higher quality product and sold it at a fair price which resulted in
value. That's not the case on most things from china.

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote
the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to
cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing
to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create
that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools,
but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of
warm socks.

/me steps down from personal soapbox
--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.

dpb wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?
You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are
non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter
than that.

Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.

AFAIK, each religion has some sort of precept against the killing of
innocents (what their definition of "innocent" is may be a little
convenient for them and not so much for somebody else, but don't
think
anybody counts the unborn in that group)...

There are quite a few folks w/o much strong connection to any
organized or formal religion who find the practice for "casual"
reasons or as "morning after" birth control as repugnant on general
principles irrespective of others' viewpoints as well.

In other words you don't have any statement of principle from a
non-Christian religion that is as clear and unambiguous as Pope Paul
VI's "We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption
of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct
abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded
as lawful means of regulating the number of children. "

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)