Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on
as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that
market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you
couldn't afford Snap-On.

But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better designed
than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but they cost more to
make.
....

I wouldn't have said they were anything different that what S-K or Proto
or several others also had available at the same time -- the only
difference was the distribution outlet(s).

As for the "then" and "now" for an open-end Craftsman wrench -- I just
had a need for a replacement of one that was at least that old -- the
new one is identical in form factor--the only difference is the
stamping, etc. I don't ken the complaint...

--

Frank Boettcher wrote:
and that's where you are wrong. My business was growing at a
reasonable rate each year. The operation was extraordinarily
profitable from a return on sales and return on invested capital
basis. The decision was made purely to try to squeeze out a little
more profit.

I'm not going to quote direct figures but the volume of business is
signifcantly off as a result of the strategy.

I think we may have discussed this before. Did the market demand the
switch or did the corporate hacks just listen to their consultants and
believe their BS about "conversion costs" etc? It was the latter not
the former in my case. The customers for my product left *after* the
move, not before.

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If
they can find it.


Indeed people show a willingness to pay more for higher perceived
quality. Many folks buy a Honda or Toyota car for more money than the
GM, Ford or Chrysler car in the same segment and pay more for it. They
do so because they believe it is a higher quality product and for the
most part their beliefs are well founded.

Every year Toyota and Honda add to their US manufacturing base and do so
with great success. Honda and other Japanese companies have taken
command of the small engine and marine engine markets as well.

Most of these outsourcing decisions are made by overpaid MBA graduates
who only care about putting "accomplishments" on their resumes to
further pad the paychecks.


John

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:11:20 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for
condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal
consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be different,
but there isn't.

Besides the fact that it isn't the Chinese companies that are forcing
abortion on anyone, it's the government which has nothing whatsoever
to do with the quality of the tools their companies put out.

The majority of Chinese companies are in fact owned by the government.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:15:14 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch
jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on
that they had a year ago.

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on
as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that
market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you
couldn't afford Snap-On.

Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent,
seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what
they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw,
which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better
than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen
accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened
versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their
innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.

Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent,
some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best
table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm
saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've
just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the
years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on
features, not on cutting ability.

I go to Sears about once in a blue moon... was there the day after
Thanksgiving actually. I think we are perceiving things differently.

I'm not talking about Sears selling Bosch or Makita. I'm talking
specifically about Craftsman.

Do you know the "Harbor Freight Smell"? That's the smell of lead
paint mixed with cheap plasticizers, or something. Anyhow, it's very
distinctive, and Sears didn't have it until a couple of years ago.
The HF power tools have this cheap plastic housing that is usually
orange or something. It actually has a bit of an oily film on it when
you first take the tool out of the box. It might be mold release, or
it might be plasticizer oozing out of the plastic, I don't know. And
they *always* have that strong smell. Then you have the cardboard
box. I keep the old boxes from my purchases. That way I can locate
by Craftsman jigsaw from 1985 quickly, and keep all the accessories
and the manual together with it. Those cardboard boxes are sturdy and
have a real solid feel about them. The new ones feel like a wet
cereal box. I don't know how to describe it, they just do.

The stationary power tools that you mentioned: I just have to rebut
that. I mean this in all good humor, what drugs are you on? The
table saws are just garbage. The radial arm saws are better, but they
are a pale shadow of where they were 10 years ago. You can't cut
corners on a radial arm saw or it will cut corners on you!! The
benchtop saws are pure junk. I have a 3 wheel bandsaw from a while
back that has a metal case, with a metal door, and metal wheels, and a
nice quiet motor. Granted, it still has that *annoying* slotted
aluminum top, but as you say, it does the job. The new ones are
almost all plastic and they are getting more flimsy every single time
I see them. The accessories to all of the stationary and bench top
tools are very poor, unless you are doing something like upselling a
TS with a Bessemier fence. (But then again, Craftsman branded
tablesaws have had very poor factory fences for 20 years). I had my
dad's old craftsman TS, again with the *annoying* slotted aluminum
top, and the old fence. I put an Incra fence on it, and it improved
100%. Then after I used it for a while, I really decided I needed
something better, so I moved up to a real cabinet saw. However the
new TS in the same class as the my old one is half the saw, with
cheaper accessories. My point is that you need to take a look at
those $500 table saws compared to anyone else, and compared to where
they used to be. They are flimsy, compared to say a Jet 10"
contractor saw at the same price at HD. The $200-$500 ones don't even
classify as a joke. They've been going downhill at quite a steep
angle. I don't think they can go much lower.

Wrenches, screwdrivers? Sure, they are still good but they sure are
expensive compared to yesteryear (individual, not in the million piece
tool set). What's interesting is to go to HF and compare the HF set
of combination wrenches, in full polished chrome, with a lifetime
warranty, on sale at $8 a set, to the exact same Craftsman set (with
the name) at the old price. Fit and finish are identical (actually
the chinese set may be slightly superior). I do buy Craftsman
wrenches and screwdrivers when I can get a real deal. Usually I won't
buy 1-2 missing sockets though (that's how they make their money). I
found that some local secondhand stores may have one or two mixed in,
and you might luck out and get them for 50 cents.

I have to say I don't have any experience with their Professional
series power tools, so I bow to your wisdom there.

In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote:

.....

I thought that the Chinese and the Taiwanese refused to acknowledge
each other.


Officially yes, practically firms work together. The owner of Grizzly
states he builds in both places.

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv

Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.

Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.

Because in the 1960s and 1970s their group think mentality concluded
that stereos and televisions were a "mature" market not worthy of
further investment. This is MBA doctrine 101, get out of slow growth
mature businesses and invest in high expected growth new opportunities.

Little did they foresee that here we are a few decades later and
consumer electronics are by far the runaway hits of the Christmas
shopping season.

There is no good reason why the flat panel television bonanza couldn't
have been Made in the USA. The management herds all ran away from that
business and it is now gone forever.

John

Mark & Juanita wrote:

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If
they can find it.


... and the Delta tool line was one of those places that people were
willing to pay for that quality.


There are very few modern Delta branded tools for which I'm willing to
pay a price premium, because it is almost all Chinese junk much like the
competition's. Why pay Delta prices for Grizzly quality?

John

J. Clarke wrote:
The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.
Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of
spending
some of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies.

The big problem was that they were heavily invested in tube technology
and didn't really understand the potential of solid state.

That is total BS. Transistors and integrated circuits were invented in
the US are continue to be manufactured by US companies in volume.
Motorola was a leader in televisions with it's Quasar brand and also was
a big leader in semiconductors.

Ditto RCA in it's heyday.

There was no lack of US involvement in solid state technology or
manufacturing. In fact to this day it is one area where the US still
has a major industrial base.

John

Cooniedog wrote:
The answer to wasted superiority is simple - cheaper labor equals more
and much bigger profits for the U.S. companies, who happen to be the
cronies of the current administration.


You can't lay this all on the current administration alone as this trend
has been going along for a very, very long time. If you want to see a
family which is unduly friendly with the Chinese, check out the Clintons.

John Horner wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.

Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.

Because in the 1960s and 1970s their group think mentality concluded
that stereos and televisions were a "mature" market not worthy of
further investment. This is MBA doctrine 101, get out of slow growth
mature businesses and invest in high expected growth new opportunities.

Little did they foresee that here we are a few decades later and
consumer electronics are by far the runaway hits of the Christmas
shopping season.

There is no good reason why the flat panel television bonanza couldn't
have been Made in the USA. The management herds all ran away from that
business and it is now gone forever.

That again is an oversimplification -- was in E TN where there was a
nearby facility of, Motorola/Quasar/Sylvania/I forget the pedigree as it
went through a succession trying to keep it alive. In the end, the
labor costs were the killer as compared to offshore and despite several
major retoolings for the electronics portions, the cabinetry and
peripherals remained the high-cost items they couldn't compete against
and eventually the whole facility went away...but it was the last US
production facility and management didn't walk away early or lightly.

--

"John Horner" wrote in message
news:FEg2j.27451$Xg.20378@trnddc06...

Indeed people show a willingness to pay more for higher perceived quality.
Many folks buy a Honda or Toyota car for more money than the GM, Ford or
Chrysler car in the same segment and pay more for it. They do so because
they believe it is a higher quality product and for the most part their
beliefs are well founded.

I literally looked at a 07 Tundra last afer looking at GMC and Chevrolet. I
have always owned GMC and Chev trucks and had a $6K+ incentive to go with
the GM products again. After driving GM I decided to not buy at all but
went a head and drove the Tundra because I had an appointment to do so. It
was a no brainer to choose the Tundra. The GM products were uncomfortable
amd the rear doors flexed and mooved while going over bumps.

Every year Toyota and Honda add to their US manufacturing base and do so
with great success. Honda and other Japanese companies have taken command
of the small engine and marine engine markets as well.

Most of these outsourcing decisions are made by overpaid MBA graduates who
only care about putting "accomplishments" on their resumes to further pad
the paychecks.

The simple fact is, the US economy is no longer big on manufacturing. It is
no longer as profitable to over pay workers for a skill that 3rd world
countries can do. If they could not do the work we would not be buying
their products. If we want better we buy Japanese or European. Its the
Capitalistic way of doing business.
Until the US can deliver equal value or better the manufacturing jobs will
go to other countries. The manufacturing phase in this U.S. economy has
come and gone and I would imagine a lot of it is because of the large unions
that have negotiated workers benefits so much that the worker benefits more
from the production of products than the business does. It's a no brainer,
have your products built by a company that is not smothered by union labor.

Leon wrote:

I literally looked at a 07 Tundra last afer looking at GMC and Chevrolet. I
have always owned GMC and Chev trucks and had a $6K+ incentive to go with
the GM products again. After driving GM I decided to not buy at all but
went a head and drove the Tundra because I had an appointment to do so. It
was a no brainer to choose the Tundra. The GM products were uncomfortable
amd the rear doors flexed and mooved while going over bumps.

One thing the foreign pickups don't have is a diesel. Last year I got a
used (57k miles) '04 Silverado 2500HD 6.6L Duramax regular cab full box
with the Allison transmission. The previous owner put a Banks exhaust
system on it. It is one towing machine for my 5th wheel! Gets 23mpg
highway and 13.5mpg towing (on a 4200 mile trip this last summer). It
was _very_ comfortable on that trip.

dpb wrote:

That again is an oversimplification -- was in E TN where there was a
nearby facility of, Motorola/Quasar/Sylvania/I forget the pedigree as it
went through a succession trying to keep it alive. In the end, the
labor costs were the killer as compared to offshore and despite several
major retoolings for the electronics portions, the cabinetry and
peripherals remained the high-cost items they couldn't compete against
and eventually the whole facility went away...but it was the last US
production facility and management didn't walk away early or lightly.

Moto has also sold off it's SPS (Semiconductor Product Sector) to
Freescale. Their main focus now is radios and cell phones and
infrastructure.

"dpb" wrote in message

As for the "then" and "now" for an open-end Craftsman wrench -- I just had
a need for a replacement of one that was at least that old -- the new one
is identical in form factor--the only difference is the stamping, etc. I
don't ken the complaint...

My Craftsman tool set was bought in 1965. The differences are less, but
still there in the open end set, dramatic on the box wrenches. I'd pay more
for a 1965 model that a free one from the present set.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:40:39 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote:
Do you know the "Harbor Freight Smell"? That's the smell of lead
paint mixed with cheap plasticizers, or something. Anyhow, it's very
distinctive, and Sears didn't have it until a couple of years ago.

Do I ever know that smell!

At the bicycle shop, we call that smell "L'essence de China". G

It's a mixture of paint, sea container "stank", plastic fumes, and the
sweat of children and forced labor.

Anytime we open a shipment from North America or Europe, the smell is
noticably missing.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:29:56 -0700, Doug Winterburn
wrote:



One thing the foreign pickups don't have is a diesel.

Oddly enough, they sell them everywhere else but North America. Many
Tacomas are sold worldwide, as the Hilux, with diesel engines. The 4
liter gas V6 is a North America-only powerplant.

The pickup truck as we know it, is kind of an American novelty in
certain ways.

Everywhere I've been around the world, most light commercial trucks
are either Sprinter-style vans or small, 6 wheel diesel cabover
trucks, ala Mitsubishi or Hino. I've seen both with 4 wheel drive.

It's very rare to see something like our leather-encrusted, quad-cab,
chrome plated pickups. It's not that you wouldn't see NICE,
_EXPENSIVE_ vehicles around, just that they're usually cars. The rest
of the world seems to have a much more distinct line between truck and
car, and different tastes.

FWIW, Toyota is playing with a large dually diesel now:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/11/05/069676.html

It's got an 8.0 litre, inline-six turbo diesel. G

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see
Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even
in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you
got if you couldn't afford Snap-On.

But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better
designed than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but
they
cost more to make.

Craftsman open end and box wrenches both come in several patterns, in
different lengths and offsets. The ones you got 40 years ago didn't
have so much variety. So make sure you're comparing apples with
apples and not comparing one wrench with another designed for a
different purpose.

I've seen
accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened
versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of
their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague
assertions.

I've heard accusation that Home Depot tools are cheapened compared
to
the same DeWalt bough at the local hardware stores also, but I've
never seen proof.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:51:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. ...

Yes, but it's the size of that market that was under question here.

Your comment was "not nearly enough". The customer base for the
product was steadily growing and the operation was quite profitable,
more so than the other segment in the company that had always depended
on imports and big box positioning. Under what criteria do you assign
a "not nearly enough" definition to the size of that select customer
base?

If you are right, with the strategy of consolidation and globalization
now firmly in place, it should be growing even faster and even more
profitable. Not so. Try shrinking and losing.



Frank

John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely
wasted
their superiority.
Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of
spending
some of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies.

The big problem was that they were heavily invested in tube
technology and didn't really understand the potential of solid
state.

That is total BS. Transistors and integrated circuits were invented
in the US

Yes, they were. And Sony bought a lot of them.

are continue to be manufactured by US companies in volume.

And how many of those companies were ones which were making consumer
electronics in the '50s when Japan was retooling? Making transistors
and making consumer products that use transistors are two different
things.

Motorola was a leader in televisions with it's Quasar brand and also
was a big leader in semiconductors.

How many transistorized Motorola televisions were sold before the
first transistor Sonys hit the market?

Ditto RCA in it's heyday.

Same question as for Motorola.

There was no lack of US involvement in solid state technology or
manufacturing. In fact to this day it is one area where the US
still
has a major industrial base.

So what? You're confusing the making of components used in consumer
electronics with the making of consumer electronics.

Put it another way, most of the characteristics of "Japanese
management" were taught to the Japanese by a couple of American QC
experts. By your reasoning such management must have been widespread
in the US at the time but in fact nobody was paying much attention to
those guys in the US, which was one reason they were free to go teach
the Japanese.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

John Horner wrote:
Brian Henderson wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:11:20 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for
condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal
consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be
different, but there isn't.

Besides the fact that it isn't the Chinese companies that are
forcing
abortion on anyone, it's the government which has nothing
whatsoever
to do with the quality of the tools their companies put out.

The majority of Chinese companies are in fact owned by the
government.

You might want to check again. While China is nominally Communist
they have in fact recognized that Taiwan and British Hong Kong were
eating their lunch and so they have implemented a number of free trade
zones that work on a capitalistic system.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
As for the "then" and "now" for an open-end Craftsman wrench -- I just had
a need for a replacement of one that was at least that old -- the new one
is identical in form factor--the only difference is the stamping, etc. I
don't ken the complaint...

My Craftsman tool set was bought in 1965. The differences are less, but
still there in the open end set, dramatic on the box wrenches. I'd pay more
for a 1965 model that a free one from the present set.

What, specifically, are the differences? Other than the style of print
and other cosmetic differences, I see absolutely no other changes from
the earliest to the latest in the combination sets/pieces I have.
Granted other than this one replacement, there probably isn't one that's
less than 10, but this was just last year the jaw on one combo wrench
failed (of course, it has some help in that... ).

--

In article , Cooniedog wrote:
The answer to wasted superiority is simple - cheaper labor equals more
and much bigger profits for the U.S. companies, who happen to be the
cronies of the current administration.

At least it's U.S. companies, which represents a vast improvement over the
previous administration, whose cronies were (and still are) the paid agents of
the ChiComm government and military. Google "John Huang" and "Charlie Hsu" for
examples.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:51:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. ...
Yes, but it's the size of that market that was under question here.

Your comment was "not nearly enough". The customer base for the
product was steadily growing and the operation was quite profitable,
more so than the other segment in the company that had always depended
on imports and big box positioning. Under what criteria do you assign
a "not nearly enough" definition to the size of that select customer
base?

If you are right, with the strategy of consolidation and globalization
now firmly in place, it should be growing even faster and even more
profitable. Not so. Try shrinking and losing.

Well, not having full access to the books nor having a seat on the board
of directors, it's not quite possible to fully answer in detail for your
specific former employer. The remark was, however, made as an overall
generalization, not a specific case study.

There was also one very important additional word in the comment you
have chosen to not quote and that was "apparently" which was simply a
reflection of the reality of what was chosen to be done. If they were
satisfied w/ the growth and size of the market one would presume the
decision would have gone another direction.

I understand your position and sympathize but facts is facts on both
sides of the equation. You see one set; it's pretty clear management
saw another based on their actions.

--

Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:

That again is an oversimplification -- was in E TN where there was a
nearby facility of, Motorola/Quasar/Sylvania/I forget the pedigree as
it went through a succession trying to keep it alive. In the end, the
labor costs were the killer as compared to offshore and despite
several major retoolings for the electronics portions, the cabinetry
and peripherals remained the high-cost items they couldn't compete
against and eventually the whole facility went away...but it was the
last US production facility and management didn't walk away early or
lightly.

Moto has also sold off it's SPS (Semiconductor Product Sector) to
Freescale. Their main focus now is radios and cell phones and
infrastructure.

Yes, that simply completes a transition that started roughly 20 years ago...

--

Bob the Tomato wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 09:15:14 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch
jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so
on
that they had a year ago.

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see
Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even
in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you
got if you couldn't afford Snap-On.

Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent,
seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do
what they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their
jigsaw, which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't
_come_ better than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model.
I've seen accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are
cheapened versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side
photos of their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been
vague assertions.

Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been
decent, some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably
the best table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their
radial arm saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30
years
ago, they've just changed the trim and added a few bells and
whistles over the years. Their new band saws are quite good--they
cut corners on features, not on cutting ability.

I go to Sears about once in a blue moon... was there the day after
Thanksgiving actually. I think we are perceiving things
differently.

I'm not talking about Sears selling Bosch or Makita. I'm talking
specifically about Craftsman.

Until recently their Craftsman Professional jigsaw was a Bosch. Now
it's an Australian made Triton, which may be a brilliant move on both
parts--Triton makes good stuff and they've never had a major US
distributer before. If I hadn't just gotten a new Bosch I might give
it a try just to see if it's as good as other Triton stuff.

Do you know the "Harbor Freight Smell"? That's the smell of lead
paint mixed with cheap plasticizers, or something. Anyhow, it's
very
distinctive, and Sears didn't have it until a couple of years ago.
The HF power tools have this cheap plastic housing that is usually
orange or something. It actually has a bit of an oily film on it
when
you first take the tool out of the box. It might be mold release,
or
it might be plasticizer oozing out of the plastic, I don't know.
And
they *always* have that strong smell. Then you have the cardboard
box. I keep the old boxes from my purchases. That way I can locate
by Craftsman jigsaw from 1985 quickly, and keep all the accessories
and the manual together with it. Those cardboard boxes are sturdy
and
have a real solid feel about them. The new ones feel like a wet
cereal box. I don't know how to describe it, they just do.

The only smell I've ever assciated with anything from Harbor Freight
is that of cutting oil and Cosmoline. I've not noticed such a smell
at any of the Sears in the area.

Every tool I've ever had with a polished plastic case has shown that
"bit of oily film"--it's mold release.

I don't really give a damn about cardboard boxes--if I want a case for
a tool I'll make or buy one. Every time I've used a cardboard box the
bottom has come out of it at an inconvenient time. If they want to
use cheaper boxes that's fine.

The stationary power tools that you mentioned: I just have to rebut
that. I mean this in all good humor, what drugs are you on?

Coffee.

The
table saws are just garbage.

Which table saws?

The radial arm saws are better, but they
are a pale shadow of where they were 10 years ago. You can't cut
corners on a radial arm saw or it will cut corners on you!!

What specific corners were cut?

The
benchtop saws are pure junk.

Aside from a few pricey German models intended for precision miniature
work most of them are, from anybody.

I have a 3 wheel bandsaw from a while
back that has a metal case, with a metal door, and metal wheels, and
a
nice quiet motor. Granted, it still has that *annoying* slotted
aluminum top, but as you say, it does the job.

For certain values of "job".

The new ones are
almost all plastic and they are getting more flimsy every single
time
I see them.

Is the frame plastic? If not then what difference does it make if the
accessories are?

The accessories to all of the stationary and bench top
tools are very poor, unless you are doing something like upselling a
TS with a Bessemier fence. (But then again, Craftsman branded
tablesaws have had very poor factory fences for 20 years).

The Orion-built Craftsman saw comes standard with a Biesemeyer fence.
No "upselling", it comes in the box.

I had my
dad's old craftsman TS, again with the *annoying* slotted aluminum
top, and the old fence. I put an Incra fence on it, and it improved
100%. Then after I used it for a while, I really decided I needed
something better, so I moved up to a real cabinet saw. However the
new TS in the same class as the my old one is half the saw, with
cheaper accessories. My point is that you need to take a look at
those $500 table saws compared to anyone else, and compared to where
they used to be.

How long ago? There was a time when 500 bucks would get you a new
car.

They are flimsy, compared to say a Jet 10"
contractor saw at the same price at HD.

What is "HD"? Ordinarily I would assume "Home Depot" but they
discontinued Jet a long time ago. If you want to say that Sears
doesn't have a decent contractor saw I'll agree with you. If you want
a good 500 buck saw Ridgid is probably your best bet.

The $200-$500 ones don't even
classify as a joke. They've been going downhill at quite a steep
angle. I don't think they can go much lower.

This is hardly unique to Sears.

Wrenches, screwdrivers? Sure, they are still good but they sure are
expensive compared to yesteryear (individual, not in the million
piece
tool set).

So are hamburgers, coffee, and gas. What of it? It's called
"inflation".

What's interesting is to go to HF and compare the HF set
of combination wrenches, in full polished chrome, with a lifetime
warranty, on sale at $8 a set, to the exact same Craftsman set (with
the name) at the old price.

The Craftsman wrenches are also American made. If you object to their
selling American made goods be sure and write them and tell them that
you'd prefer they sell Chinese for a fraction of the price, but don't
come crying to me when they take you at your word.

Fit and finish are identical (actually
the chinese set may be slightly superior).

So you're asserting that the Chinese product is superior to the
American product?

I do buy Craftsman
wrenches and screwdrivers when I can get a real deal. Usually I
won't
buy 1-2 missing sockets though (that's how they make their money).
I
found that some local secondhand stores may have one or two mixed
in,
and you might luck out and get them for 50 cents.

I have to say I don't have any experience with their Professional
series power tools, so I bow to your wisdom there.

Looks to me like you're judging the quality of tools based on the odor
of the store and the quality of the packaging rather than on how well
they work.


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Nov 25, 12:08 pm, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
wrote:
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:40:39 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote:

Do you know the "Harbor Freight Smell"? That's the smell of lead
paint mixed with cheap plasticizers, or something. Anyhow, it's very
distinctive, and Sears didn't have it until a couple of years ago.

Do I ever know that smell!

At the bicycle shop, we call that smell "L'essence de China". G

It's a mixture of paint, sea container "stank", plastic fumes, and the
sweat of children and forced labor.

Anytime we open a shipment from North America or Europe, the smell is
noticably missing.

That 'scent' makes me gag. I have posted to that topic before and
since then (not because of) I have noticed more and more people
complaining about it.
I'm looking for 4 tires for Angela's car, so I poked my head around
the corner at our local WalMart and FN lost my lunch. Tire stores used
to smell GOOD!

I tried a line of solid surface sinks (to be undermounted) made in
China. My distributor gave me a couple to play with. They were
actually well packaged, but a part of the package was a slab
of...mmm..whatshallIcallit...kinda particle board, sorta pressed
horse****,..but VERY stinky. An oily, ****y, vomity, college-bathroom-
pub-floor (so I been told). The $ 50.00 savings per sink didn't cut
it.

Bonehenge now, huh? Love it!

r

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:17:06 -0600, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:51:10 -0600, dpb wrote:

Frank Boettcher wrote:
...

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. ...
Yes, but it's the size of that market that was under question here.

Your comment was "not nearly enough". The customer base for the
product was steadily growing and the operation was quite profitable,
more so than the other segment in the company that had always depended
on imports and big box positioning. Under what criteria do you assign
a "not nearly enough" definition to the size of that select customer
base?

If you are right, with the strategy of consolidation and globalization
now firmly in place, it should be growing even faster and even more
profitable. Not so. Try shrinking and losing.

Well, not having full access to the books nor having a seat on the board
of directors, it's not quite possible to fully answer in detail for your
specific former employer.

So what part of my post do you disbelieve and need additional proof?
I'm constrained from being able to offer it, just curious as to why
you would question my credibility.

The remark was, however, made as an overall
generalization, not a specific case study.

I see, however, you commented in a portion of the thread that was
talking about woodworking machinery.

There was also one very important additional word in the comment you
have chosen to not quote and that was "apparently" which was simply a
reflection of the reality of what was chosen to be done.

I have no idea what you just said.

If they were
satisfied w/ the growth and size of the market one would presume the
decision would have gone another direction.

Corporate leaders, who have not really done much but have fast tracked
to the top, rarely have the insight to leave well enough alone when
they have the "golden goose" They often want to kill it to get the
"gold"

I understand your position and sympathize but facts is facts on both
sides of the equation. You see one set; it's pretty clear management
saw another based on their actions.

There are no facts on the Corporate hack side of the equation, only
speculation. Sustained profitability and growth over a long period of
time is a fact. A strategy of greed is not based on any fact
whatsoever, just a gleem in ones eye. "if we can squeeze a little
more out of this thing, our bonuses will be much larger". I'm sorry
you can find sympathy in that attitude, it is one of the reasons they
get away with it.

Frank

"dpb" wrote in message

What, specifically, are the differences? Other than the style of print
and other cosmetic differences, I see absolutely no other changes from the
earliest to the latest in the combination sets/pieces I have. Granted
other than this one replacement, there probably isn't one that's less than
10, but this was just last year the jaw on one combo wrench failed (of
course, it has some help in that... ).


The wrenches I have are styled like the deep offset, but are not as deep.

Looking on their web page, I found some deep offset wrenches
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...=dee p+offset

In my last half dozen trips to the store they did not have them. Only a
"bent" end, like this one
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...sName=Wrenches

I see, however, they offer them on the web. Either they are brought back or
the local store did not carry them.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...sName=Wrenches

I'll have to go back and look. I put off getting a couple of replacements
because I did not like what was in the store.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:22:11 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote:

I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it
passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a
quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.

Same here, but the point I was making is that quality and "made in the
USA" are not always the same thing. In fact, they are not usually the
same thing most of time. Where a product is made should be irrelevant
to what the quality of the product is. A toy made with lead paint is
dangerous whether it's made in China or Chicago. Far too many people
act like "Made in the USA" is a stamp of quality, not location.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 11:01:44 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:


Bonehenge now, huh? Love it!

Different computer. G

I'm _always_ B A R R Y!

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:17:55 GMT, FrozenNorth
wrote:

Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of spending some
of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies.

Also because they figured the gravy train would never end so why
bother worrying about it. Now, instead of quality, most U.S. products
are made on the cheap, with tech support in India, and merchandised to
people who think "Made in the USA" means it's decent.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 00:34:47 GMT, Ralph wrote:

Have to agree with you Mac. Remember when "J.A.Pan & Co." meant junk or
popcorn toys (must be dating myself there). Their first cars into North
America were a joke, but they did their homework and now they are
forerunners in industry. It seems that China may be following the same
route.

Precisely. They succeed because they want to succeed, they're hungry
for success. You get a lot of American companies who think that
because they bother to open their doors in the morning, they deserve
success and the world will beat a path to their door because they're
Americans.

Ain't so.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 15:44:13 GMT, John Horner
wrote:

There are very few modern Delta branded tools for which I'm willing to
pay a price premium, because it is almost all Chinese junk much like the
competition's. Why pay Delta prices for Grizzly quality?

There was a time 15-20 years ago when Delta was the top of the line
and brands like Jet were looked upon as crap. Now the situation has
reversed and you're getting the brands that were laughed at years ago
getting all the awards and traditionally respected brands losing out.

On Nov 24, 7:41 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Charlie Self wrote:
On Nov 24, 2:22 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:

rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the
people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count
is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.

I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do
with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized
slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?

Quite possibly the forced aspect of it, I'd guess.

If it's not morally wrong then why is the forced aspect of it wrong?
The women know the law.


So if someone makes a law saying you have to eat two servings of
pickeled pigs' feet per day, you should obey because you know the law?

My father loved 'em. They make me puke. That kind of force is wrong.

On Nov 24, 11:53 am, dpb wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

--

It's hard to buy what is not available.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:23:13 GMT, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
wrote:

Oddly enough, they sell them everywhere else but North America. Many
Tacomas are sold worldwide, as the Hilux, with diesel engines. The 4
liter gas V6 is a North America-only powerplant.

That's because Americans don't really like disesl. It's like looking
at the car market in the UK and Europe compared to the US. There are
tons of really nice, extremely gas-efficient cars made in Europe but
because they're not the size of a schoolbus, Americans won't drive
them. We bitch about gas heading for $5 a gallon, but we won't give
up our gas-guzzling SUVs. Go figure.

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message

What, specifically, are the differences? Other than the style of
print and other cosmetic differences, I see absolutely no other
changes from the earliest to the latest in the combination
sets/pieces I have. Granted other than this one replacement, there
probably isn't one that's less than 10, but this was just last year
the jaw on one combo wrench failed (of course, it has some help in
that... ).


The wrenches I have are styled like the deep offset, but are not as
deep.

Looking on their web page, I found some deep offset wrenches
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...=dee p+offset

In my last half dozen trips to the store they did not have them.
Only
a
"bent" end, like this one
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...sName=Wrenches

I see, however, they offer them on the web. Either they are brought
back or
the local store did not carry them.
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1...sName=Wrenches

Of the five stores nearest me only one lists that particular wrench as
being in stock. On the other hand three out of the five list the set
as being in stock (one store doesn't have online inventory). If you
only need one, looking at the set will tell you if they're what you
need then you can order the one you want and if you have it delivered
to the store you save shipping.

I'll have to go back and look. I put off getting a couple of
replacements
because I did not like what was in the store.

Once you've got it up on the site, click the "pick up" button and
enter your zip code then "check availability" and the site will tell
you if it's in stock anywhere near you and if so where--that system is
not completely reliable--if the store's inventory is screwed up then
so is the online inventory--but it's usually right. Can save a trip
if it's not in the store and if there's more than one Sears near you
then it lets you go to the one that has it.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

dpb wrote:
Doug Winterburn wrote:
dpb wrote:

That again is an oversimplification -- was in E TN where there was a
nearby facility of, Motorola/Quasar/Sylvania/I forget the pedigree as
it went through a succession trying to keep it alive. In the end,
the labor costs were the killer as compared to offshore and despite
several major retoolings for the electronics portions, the cabinetry
and peripherals remained the high-cost items they couldn't compete
against and eventually the whole facility went away...but it was the
last US production facility and management didn't walk away early or
lightly.

Moto has also sold off it's SPS (Semiconductor Product Sector) to
Freescale. Their main focus now is radios and cell phones and
infrastructure.

Yes, that simply completes a transition that started roughly 20 years
ago...

--

Yup, I know - I was with them for 23 years (as a result of an
acquisition) until they divested themselves of the group I worked for in
1998. The new owners decided they didn't need any (over 50 yr/old)
geezers, so I managed to get my severance from Moto before they
completed the dump. I'm not so sure the "transition" is complete as
there are acquisitions and divestitures going on constantly at Moto. As
one of my co-workers used to say "This is a great place to work -
there's a going away party every Friday" ;-)

In article , "J. Clarke" wrote:

Until recently their Craftsman Professional jigsaw was a Bosch. Now
it's an Australian made Triton, which may be a brilliant move on both
parts--Triton makes good stuff and they've never had a major US
distributer before. If I hadn't just gotten a new Bosch I might give
it a try just to see if it's as good as other Triton stuff.

Interesting... and just when I was looking to pick up a replacement, too.
Anybody have experience with the Triton jigsaws? Is the Sears version simply a
rebadged OEM unit, or are there functional differences?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Nov 25, 9:15 am, "J. Clarke" wrote:
Bob the Tomato wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:20:27 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:

"Brian Henderson" wrote in
message

The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional
capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than
an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There
comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much
more
than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top
is
flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to
get it that flat?

Most people would say no.

The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the
curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more,
it
had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At
5%,
there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when
needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the
differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an
electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something
less
of a difference.

While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of
rules
applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus
made
in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable
in
the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a
Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year
and
paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever
have to buy and it works greathttp://www.rapidreel.com/

I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is
trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool
dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home
Depot.
Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality...
the
best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the
company's
formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter.

Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch
jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on
that they had a year ago.

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on
as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that
market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you
couldn't afford Snap-On.

Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent,
seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what
they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw,
which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better
than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen
accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened
versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their
innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.

Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent,
some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best
table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm
saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've
just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the
years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on
features, not on cutting ability.

I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it
passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is
a
quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.


Agreed. I've currently got a 10" Craftsman Industrial tablesaw, and a
friend has the early production Orion hybrid I used to have. Both are
excellent tools. I've also got a refurb 15" planer, which is very
good. I need to look at the new bandsaws. Currently, a Steel City 16"
draws my praise...it is Taiwanese, I think, and very, very well made.
Trunnions are cast iron (not always the case in bandsaws under 20")
and all is well made.

As a general statement, I think there has been a basic upgrading of
quality in the past two decades, with more and more woodworkers
demanding better tools. A lot of the perceived faults we bitch about
these days might have been overlooked in the '70s, '80s and maybe even
into the '90s. Not today.

Yes, some Chinese/Taiwanese tools are junk, evennow, regardless of the
name on the tool, but an awful lot of that is the fault of the company
providing the specs and inspections. For example, 17-18-19 years ago,
any framing nailer cost upwards of $375, often way upwards. Today, a
decent brand name framing nailer may be had for well under $250. Why?
IMO, a large part of the credit goes to Porter-Cable, which started
getting decent production out of Taiwan by the simple matter of
sending an inspector over there, full time as I was told, with the
authority to reject anything that didn't meet standards.

I also don't have a real problem with Harbor Freight tools. They are
cheaply made, but they are also sold cheap. There's not a whole lot of
BS and artifice in their sales techniques. You pay 25 bucks for a
biscuit joiner, and you get a 25 buck (or close to it) biscuit joiner,
but you have no right to expect anything else, and HF doesn't tell you
you should.