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#41
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
J. Clarke wrote:
I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with this. You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery in the US was never just, although it was legal. So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? I object strongly to the use of force in this regard. What could be more anti-choice than forcing a woman to have an abortion? For some reason you keyed in on the word abortion in my post and missed the far more important word FORCED. I don't buy the simple minded cultural relativism arguments at all. Some things are simply wrong. Infant sacrifice to appease the gods, for example. I could care less if a given culture has practiced it for thousands of years and if the practice is codified in law. It is still wrong. Ditto for slavery. As far as China goes, the fact that something is lawful or unlawful doesn't have much moral standing at all. China has never had a democratic government and it's laws are enacted and enforced by a government which at it's root is a military dictatorship. Thus any argument for something being ok in the context of China because of China's laws of the moment has no principled foundation. You don't even know that a given law expresses the majority view of the "culture" because said law is enacted without any hint of even the consent of the majority. John |
#42
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official statement on the matter. Sorry, but you'll have to do your own search. Your making of an illogical statement does not require work on my part. If one is a non-Christian, they do not have to be a member of an organized religion, union, fraternal organization, political party or poker group to oppose abortion on moral grounds. As an individual, I make my own decision on such matters and I suspect others do also. And of course the official policies of the government of another nation should be based on your personal opinion. Should they also require everyone to wear a tinfoil hat? -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#43
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote in message So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter than that. Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official statement on the matter. " It is quite clear from a variety of sources that abortion has been severely disapproved of in the Buddhist tradition." http://www.kusala.org/udharma/abortion.html |
#44
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote the following: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather. /me steps down from personal soapbox -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#45
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote in message So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter than that. Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official statement on the matter. " It is quite clear from a variety of sources that abortion has been severely disapproved of in the Buddhist tradition." http://www.kusala.org/udharma/abortion.html (a) That is not an official statement by any recognized spokesman for Buddhism and (b) the whole point of the document you linked is that abortion is _acceptable_ under Buddhism under some circumstances. Regardless, it's an opinion by someone whose relationship to Buddhism is not at all clear. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#46
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Mike Marlow wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message ... So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion, but abortion is not a Christian issue. No, it's not. Perhaps Christian Evangelists have made it a hot-button item with them, but other religions are against it too. Some non-religious folks are as well. I suspect that there are many women and men in China who support it - and oppose it. I see it as a conscience thing. I"m like Mike on this one. I have no intention of debating whether or not it's right. There are countless other forums for that. Tanus |
#47
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 12:47 pm and
wrote the following: FrozenNorth wrote: dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote the following: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather. Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago. /me steps down from personal soapbox -- Lits Slut #9 Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code. |
#48
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
FrozenNorth wrote:
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 12:47 pm and wrote the following: FrozenNorth wrote: dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote the following: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather. Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago. Try Thorlos. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#49
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Tanus wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote in message ... So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion, but abortion is not a Christian issue. No, it's not. Perhaps Christian Evangelists have made it a hot-button item with them, but other religions are against it too. Some non-religious folks are as well. I suspect that there are many women and men in China who support it - and oppose it. I see it as a conscience thing. I"m like Mike on this one. I have no intention of debating whether or not it's right. There are countless other forums for that. Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be different, but there isn't. Tanus -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#50
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Nov 24, 12:06 pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
J. Clarke wrote: John Horner wrote: J. Clarke wrote: rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of the US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any religion that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and common sense to have abortions. I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with this. You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery in the US was never just, although it was legal. So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the allegation that abortion is wrong? Why would one have to be a Christian to recognize that a life is being taken by the act of abortion? I picked up an elective (Sociology) for, what I thought, an easy credit. I found it incredibly fascinating, but didn't make a career out of it G I did latch on to a lot of really cool information which came out of some studies. In Papua New Guinea, they found several tribes (this would have been in the 1950's) who had had zero exposure to western ideas, had no exposure to Islam or any religion. They did understand the concept of lying, stealing, murder all that 'wrong' stuff. The fact that they did it anyway had nothing to do with the discovery. They knew it was wrong. They also knew to help somebody was right. So this whole 'murder-in-the-womb' concept would have even been wrong to those in the jungle. We KNOW what's right and wrong. Different religions have merely capitalised on the fear aspect of 'wrong'...that somehow you can 'pay off' your sins, bribe your gods. Fear moulding the masses....now where have I seen THAT demonstrated lately...... oops...jumps off soap-box (made in ROC) |
#51
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"J. Clarke" wrote in message As an individual, I make my own decision on such matters and I suspect others do also. And of course the official policies of the government of another nation should be based on your personal opinion. Should they also require everyone to wear a tinfoil hat? Never said that. If you take the time to read what I wrote and try to comprehend it, you will see that the government nor the church matters to me in this case. You will also note that I did not say which side I'm on. None of your business, none of the government's business, nor is it the business of any religion. |
#52
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:53:43 -0600, dpb wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... and that's where you are wrong. My business was growing at a reasonable rate each year. The operation was extraordinarily profitable from a return on sales and return on invested capital basis. The decision was made purely to try to squeeze out a little more profit. I'm not going to quote direct figures but the volume of business is signifcantly off as a result of the strategy. I think we may have discussed this before. Did the market demand the switch or did the corporate hacks just listen to their consultants and believe their BS about "conversion costs" etc? It was the latter not the former in my case. The customers for my product left *after* the move, not before. There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If they can find it. Frank |
#53
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:09:27 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: FrozenNorth wrote: J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 12:47 pm and wrote the following: FrozenNorth wrote: dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote the following: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather. Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago. Try Thorlos. -- Are they durable? Been looking for a new running sock. Bought a pair of Thorlos and a pair of Wigam to test them against each other but my nephew grabbed the thorlos before I could use them. Frank |
#54
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:50:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: "Frank Boettcher" wrote in message I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of woodworking machinery moving to china. About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues are similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful" individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an hour with an average experience level of 25 years. While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries, emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold, and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really materialized. Maybe some day. I understand where you are coming from. The one sentence that really stick out is: "I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway." I have a problem with a company doing that. I believe it happens often. Picture a company making this decision after listening to the consultants telling them how great it's going to be. Then they set up a time line and start to build bridging quantities in their U. S. operations that are being shut down. Then things don't go well with the transition. Those promises made by the Taiwanese brokers (who are really running the show) aren't kept. The bridging quantity gets depleted. You are facing a season with nothing to sell. So what do you do? You sell the stuff that is not quite right something you said in the beginning you would never do. Frank I'd realy like to know the answers to so many questions when companies decide to go overseas. Profit, of course, is a big motivator, but there are many "what ifs". The US built tools have to compete with other major brands, such as Jet and Grizzly. In the end, what is the real cost difference when you back out the emergency air shipments and re-work? What happens to the company reputation when quality drops? What happens if the US manufacturing is kept in place, but at a reduced capacity because some sales are lost to the cheaper competition? How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? |
#55
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Frank Boettcher wrote:
.... There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. ... Yes, but it's the size of that market that was under question here. -- |
#56
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:05:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote: I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion, but abortion is not a Christian issue. In a lot of cases, especially in the U.S. it most certainly is. If you want to say it isn't SOLELY a Christian issue, you'd be right, but try telling that to groups like Operation Rescue. |
#57
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:11:20 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be different, but there isn't. Besides the fact that it isn't the Chinese companies that are forcing abortion on anyone, it's the government which has nothing whatsoever to do with the quality of the tools their companies put out. |
#58
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:20:00 GMT, FrozenNorth
wrote: That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it that flat? Most people would say no. |
#59
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:49:17 GMT, FrozenNorth
wrote: Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago. You can still find plenty of warm socks that are made the same way, they just cost 20x more than the ones that don't. It's usually more cost effective to buy 20 pairs of socks over time than to buy just one at a high initial cost, it ends up costing the same but you get to spread the price out over time. |
#60
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. |
#61
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Brian Henderson took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 04:06
pm and wrote the following: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of spending some of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies. -- Lits Slut #9 Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code. |
#62
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it that flat? Most people would say no. The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something less of a difference. While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great http://www.rapidreel.com/ |
#63
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:09:27 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: FrozenNorth wrote: J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 12:47 pm and wrote the following: FrozenNorth wrote: dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am and wrote the following: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of warm socks. If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather. Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago. Try Thorlos. -- Are they durable? Been looking for a new running sock. Bought a pair of Thorlos and a pair of Wigam to test them against each other but my nephew grabbed the thorlos before I could use them. For certain values of "durable". Been wearing them for I dunno, maybe 15 years, and finally tossed some of the oldest ones the other day. They make so many specialized variations though that it's difficult to generalize. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#64
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:50:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Frank Boettcher" wrote in message I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of woodworking machinery moving to china. About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues are similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful" individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an hour with an average experience level of 25 years. While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries, emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold, and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really materialized. Maybe some day. I understand where you are coming from. The one sentence that really stick out is: "I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway." I have a problem with a company doing that. I believe it happens often. Picture a company making this decision after listening to the consultants telling them how great it's going to be. Then they set up a time line and start to build bridging quantities in their U. S. operations that are being shut down. Then things don't go well with the transition. Those promises made by the Taiwanese brokers (who are really running the show) aren't kept. The bridging quantity gets depleted. You are facing a season with nothing to sell. So what do you do? You sell the stuff that is not quite right something you said in the beginning you would never do. I thought that the Chinese and the Taiwanese refused to acknowledge each other. Frank I'd realy like to know the answers to so many questions when companies decide to go overseas. Profit, of course, is a big motivator, but there are many "what ifs". The US built tools have to compete with other major brands, such as Jet and Grizzly. In the end, what is the real cost difference when you back out the emergency air shipments and re-work? What happens to the company reputation when quality drops? What happens if the US manufacturing is kept in place, but at a reduced capacity because some sales are lost to the cheaper competition? How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#65
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
FrozenNorth wrote:
Brian Henderson took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 04:06 pm and wrote the following: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of spending some of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies. The big problem was that they were heavily invested in tube technology and didn't really understand the potential of solid state. The Japanese, on the other hand, weren't invested in anything, since their infrastructure was pretty much nonexistant thanks to Slum Clearance Project B-29, and when they started over they decided to take a chance on this new solid state stuff. Turned out to be a good gamble for them. Wasn't so much that their quality was better as that they could make things smaller and lighter and that consumed less power. The thing that _made_ the Japanese electronics industry as a player in the US consumer market was Sony's little battery-powered TV sets. Just couldn't do those with tubes. If you took one apart, the build quality wasn't all that good--the solder joints on mine (I had occasion to open it up the other day after 30 years or so of operation) are about like the joints on the first generation of Chinese video boards that I encountered--hand work, not wave-soldered, but then at the time hand work was considered by the consumers to be superior to machine-soldered printed circuits. Wasn't less money either, those Sony sets cost _more_ than American sets. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#66
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:53:43 -0600, dpb wrote: Edwin Pawlowski wrote: ... ... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen? Not nearly enough, apparently... .... snip I think we may have discussed this before. Did the market demand the switch or did the corporate hacks just listen to their consultants and believe their BS about "conversion costs" etc? It was the latter not the former in my case. The customers for my product left *after* the move, not before. There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If they can find it. ... and the Delta tool line was one of those places that people were willing to pay for that quality. Now the consultants have been paid, the switch has been made such that recovery to the pre-change state is most likely nearly impossible, and the executives are left with a dwindling market in that segment with a high return rate and higher warranty costs. You know what that means, right? They are going to have to bring in some highly paid consultants to identify the problems and get recommendations for turning things around. -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#67
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message ... Sinp Yesterday, I installed a kitchen sink and after spending the time to install the brand new strainer basket (from China) I got to take it back out because the threads were bad and would not hold the tailpiece nut. In my life seems like this is at least a weekly occurance on some defective chinese component. I'm slowly learning to test every brand new chinese component before I use it to save time. Now many times I buy it, open it in the store, test it and only leave the store with it if it is good. Saves the trip back. You can probably guess where I stand on the matter. If I have a choice of a product that is made in the U.S. or any other country of origin that has proven quality, I'll buy it. Many times there is no choice. Well, I know that there quality sink strainers available, why not buy quality and or American to begin with? Are you complaining about products being manufactured in China and at the same time buying them? You are seeing first hand why these jobs are going to other countries. You don't want to pay the price that the Americans want to charge. I never had a problem with the Japanese grabbing market share in the automobile business. They did it the right way, that is they made a higher quality product and sold it at a fair price which resulted in value. That's not the case on most things from china. I certainly recall when Japan sold to the US just like China is now. Until Japan started dictating the quality instead of letting the American importers dictate or decide on the acceptable quality Japan did not have such a rosy appearance either. If Americans importers imported the Quality China products we would see better products. |
#68
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"Brian Henderson" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! I gotta agree with you hare Bryan. The simple fact is, the world economy is changing at a fast pace. Either learn new skills to keep up your comfprt spending level or fall backwards. The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. The simple answer is that those that think you can maintain the Status Quo and get paid the same are the ones that are in control and letting every thing slip away. |
#69
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality to better than ours (US).. One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and renovation.. Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in the US was almost 100 years old... Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and found out what the American people wanted and made it.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#70
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:02:22 -0800 (PST), Hoosierpopi
wrote: Lastly(?) there are tools you just want to experiment with to see if the investment in the FEIN version might be worth the 10X price differential over the chink rip-off. (E) Been there, done that, but it sort of drives home my earlier point about quality, not country of origin.. Biscuit jointers looked like a cool tool, but I wasn't ready to pay $150 to find out... I bought one on sale at HF for $20 on sale.. Made in China and it was a POS, but it made me realize that biscuit jointing was a useful concept.. My wife then bought me the Craftsman/De Walt version... Also made in China, but IMO a good tool that has lasted for years so far.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#71
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"mac davis" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:02:22 -0800 (PST), Hoosierpopi wrote: Lastly(?) there are tools you just want to experiment with to see if the investment in the FEIN version might be worth the 10X price differential over the chink rip-off. (E) Been there, done that, but it sort of drives home my earlier point about quality, not country of origin.. Precicely! Most of the China imports are simply the best quality for the amount of money spent. |
#72
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
mac davis wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality to better than ours (US).. One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and renovation.. Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in the US was almost 100 years old... Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and found out what the American people wanted and made it.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing Have to agree with you Mac. Remember when "J.A.Pan & Co." meant junk or popcorn toys (must be dating myself there). Their first cars into North America were a joke, but they did their homework and now they are forerunners in industry. It seems that China may be following the same route. |
#73
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
mac davis wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality to better than ours (US).. One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and renovation.. That and/or the fact that Japanese industry can do updates and renovations Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in the US was almost 100 years old... One of the reasons for that is the significant resistance of organized labor to any changes in plant configuration that might automate something and take away a job. They were successful for a while, but that eventually caught up to both the steel and auto industries. I believe Leon posted a while back about the amount in a new GM car that goes to pay the health insurance for retired workers. Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and found out what the American people wanted and made it.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing -- If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough |
#74
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:20:27 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: "Brian Henderson" wrote in message The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it that flat? Most people would say no. The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something less of a difference. While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great http://www.rapidreel.com/ I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home Depot. Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality... the best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the company's formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter. I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a quality tool available, I will buy it if I can. |
#75
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:22:11 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote: Sears used to mean quality... the best. While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town. |
#76
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:21:22 -0600, "Leon"
wrote: -snip of faux talking points- Buying American does not guarantee better quality nor does it help the economy unless we get what we pay for. Paying some one to do a **** poor job or manufacture a sub par product is bad for the economy. Then we have the other side of the coin. Let's take Delta as an example. Established, long term, excellent reputation for WW machinery. Happened to be made in USA (vs, say Japan). Moved production to China. Quality went to H#LL. Never was one to buy strictly American, but when American (or Japan, or Germany,...) had the reputation for the best, that's what I buy. Now, they keep their premium pricing - for Chinese junk. This is my big issue - premium pricing remains - production costs waay down after moving to China; quality inevitably deterioted in some way. Won't be buying new Delta any time soon. Maybe one day the quality will be back, the customer service will have some folks who know the difference between the stationary tools and portable stuff, then can revisit decision. Renata |
#77
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
Bob the Tomato wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:20:27 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Brian Henderson" wrote in message The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it that flat? Most people would say no. The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something less of a difference. While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great http://www.rapidreel.com/ I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home Depot. Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality... the best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the company's formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter. Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on that they had a year ago. Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you couldn't afford Snap-On. Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent, seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw, which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions. Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent, some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on features, not on cutting ability. I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a quality tool available, I will buy it if I can. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#78
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
The answer to wasted superiority is simple - cheaper labor equals more
and much bigger profits for the U.S. companies, who happen to be the cronies of the current administration. mac davis wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson wrote: On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke" wrote: Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics industry. Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it! The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted their superiority. I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality to better than ours (US).. One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and renovation.. Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in the US was almost 100 years old... Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and found out what the American people wanted and made it.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#79
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
"J. Clarke" wrote in message Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you couldn't afford Snap-On. But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better designed than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but they cost more to make. I've seen accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions. I've heard accusation that Home Depot tools are cheapened compared to the same DeWalt bough at the local hardware stores also, but I've never seen proof. |
#80
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Do you care where your tools are manufactured?
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:14:12 GMT, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
wrote: On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:22:11 GMT, Bob the Tomato wrote: Sears used to mean quality... the best. While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was simply the only game in town. I mean "the best" in terms of what was readily available to the average guy walking in off the street. I have never been to a snap-on dealer, or ever purchased one of their tools, because we simply run in different circles. I'm not a professional mechanic. (I'm talking hand tools in this instance, although the same argument could be made for hand held power tools, but probably not for heavy stationary tools... since Sears really didn't try to get into that market.) |
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