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Default Do you care where your tools are manufactured?

J. Clarke wrote:

I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with
this.

You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.


So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


I object strongly to the use of force in this regard. What could be
more anti-choice than forcing a woman to have an abortion? For some
reason you keyed in on the word abortion in my post and missed the far
more important word FORCED.

I don't buy the simple minded cultural relativism arguments at all.
Some things are simply wrong. Infant sacrifice to appease the gods, for
example. I could care less if a given culture has practiced it for
thousands of years and if the practice is codified in law. It is still
wrong. Ditto for slavery.

As far as China goes, the fact that something is lawful or unlawful
doesn't have much moral standing at all. China has never had a
democratic government and it's laws are enacted and enforced by a
government which at it's root is a military dictatorship. Thus any
argument for something being ok in the context of China because of
China's laws of the moment has no principled foundation. You don't even
know that a given law expresses the majority view of the "culture"
because said law is enacted without any hint of even the consent of the
majority.

John


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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.


Sorry, but you'll have to do your own search. Your making of an
illogical statement does not require work on my part. If one is a
non-Christian, they do not have to be a member of an organized
religion, union, fraternal organization, political party or poker
group to oppose abortion on moral grounds. As an individual, I make
my own decision on such matters and I suspect others do also.


And of course the official policies of the government of another
nation should be based on your personal opinion. Should they also
require everyone to wear a tinfoil hat?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?

You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are
non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter
than that.


Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.


" It is quite clear from a variety of sources that abortion has been
severely disapproved of in the Buddhist tradition."

http://www.kusala.org/udharma/abortion.html

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FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am
and wrote the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by
experienced
craftsmen?


Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough
product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't
enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to
support
the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends
far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need
in life, including a nice pair of warm socks.


If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very
hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my
motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather.

/me steps down from personal soapbox


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?
You have to be a Christian to be against abortion? If you are
non-Christian are you automatically pro abortion? You're smarter
than that.


Fine, give me the basis on which one non-Christian religious
denomination opposes abortion and a source for their official
statement on the matter.


" It is quite clear from a variety of sources that abortion has been
severely disapproved of in the Buddhist tradition."

http://www.kusala.org/udharma/abortion.html


(a) That is not an official statement by any recognized spokesman for
Buddhism and
(b) the whole point of the document you linked is that abortion is
_acceptable_ under Buddhism under some circumstances.

Regardless, it's an opinion by someone whose relationship to Buddhism
is not at all clear.

--
--
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to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)




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Mike Marlow wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion,
but abortion is not a Christian issue.


No, it's not. Perhaps Christian
Evangelists have made it a hot-button
item with them, but other religions are
against it too. Some non-religious folks
are as well. I suspect that there are
many women and men in China who support
it - and oppose it.

I see it as a conscience thing. I"m like
Mike on this one. I have no intention of
debating whether or not it's right.
There are countless other forums for that.

Tanus
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J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 12:47 pm and
wrote the following:

FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am
and wrote the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by
experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough
product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't
enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to
support
the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends
far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we need
in life, including a nice pair of warm socks.


If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very
hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my
motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather.

Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears
out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago.

/me steps down from personal soapbox



--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
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FrozenNorth wrote:
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007
12:47
pm and wrote the following:

FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am
and wrote the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by
experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough
product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't
enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to
support
the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends
far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we
need
in life, including a nice pair of warm socks.


If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very
hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my
motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather.

Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the
sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so
years ago.


Try Thorlos.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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Tanus wrote:
Mike Marlow wrote:
"J. Clarke" wrote in message
...

So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious
diversion, but abortion is not a Christian issue.


No, it's not. Perhaps Christian
Evangelists have made it a hot-button
item with them, but other religions are
against it too. Some non-religious folks
are as well. I suspect that there are
many women and men in China who support
it - and oppose it.

I see it as a conscience thing. I"m like
Mike on this one. I have no intention of
debating whether or not it's right.
There are countless other forums for that.


Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for
condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal
consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be different,
but there isn't.

Tanus


--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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On Nov 24, 12:06 pm, Mark & Juanita wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:
John Horner wrote:
J. Clarke wrote:


rolling eyes They have more than four times the population of
the
US in the same land area. They have trouble feeding all the people
they have. Further, they are not and have never been a Christian
nation or a nation that owes any part of its heritage to any
religion
that is part of the heritage of Christianity, so no, on no count is
it wrong for the Chinese to require women who have been so
irresponsible as to become pregnant in violation of the law and
common sense to have abortions.


I'm not a Christian either, so I don't see what that has to do with
this.


You must realize that not all laws are just, eh? Legalized slavery
in the US was never just, although it was legal.


So if you are not a Christian then what is your basis for the
allegation that abortion is wrong?


Why would one have to be a Christian to recognize that a life is being
taken by the act of abortion?

I picked up an elective (Sociology) for, what I thought, an easy
credit.
I found it incredibly fascinating, but didn't make a career out of it
G
I did latch on to a lot of really cool information which came out of
some studies.
In Papua New Guinea, they found several tribes (this would have been
in the 1950's) who had had zero exposure to western ideas, had no
exposure to Islam or any religion.
They did understand the concept of lying, stealing, murder all that
'wrong' stuff. The fact that they did it anyway had nothing to do with
the discovery. They knew it was wrong. They also knew to help somebody
was right.
So this whole 'murder-in-the-womb' concept would have even been wrong
to those in the jungle.
We KNOW what's right and wrong.
Different religions have merely capitalised on the fear aspect of
'wrong'...that somehow you can 'pay off' your sins, bribe your gods.
Fear moulding the masses....now where have I seen THAT demonstrated
lately......

oops...jumps off soap-box (made in ROC)



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"J. Clarke" wrote in message
As an individual, I make
my own decision on such matters and I suspect others do also.


And of course the official policies of the government of another
nation should be based on your personal opinion. Should they also
require everyone to wear a tinfoil hat?


Never said that. If you take the time to read what I wrote and try to
comprehend it, you will see that the government nor the church matters to me
in this case. You will also note that I did not say which side I'm on. None
of your business, none of the government's business, nor is it the business
of any religion.


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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:53:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?


Not nearly enough, apparently...



and that's where you are wrong. My business was growing at a
reasonable rate each year. The operation was extraordinarily
profitable from a return on sales and return on invested capital
basis. The decision was made purely to try to squeeze out a little
more profit.

I'm not going to quote direct figures but the volume of business is
signifcantly off as a result of the strategy.

I think we may have discussed this before. Did the market demand the
switch or did the corporate hacks just listen to their consultants and
believe their BS about "conversion costs" etc? It was the latter not
the former in my case. The customers for my product left *after* the
move, not before.

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If
they can find it.

Frank


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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:09:27 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007
12:47
pm and wrote the following:

FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53 am
and wrote the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by
experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough
product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't
enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to
support
the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this extends
far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we
need
in life, including a nice pair of warm socks.

If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking very
hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on my
motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather.

Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the
sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so
years ago.


Try Thorlos.

--

Are they durable? Been looking for a new running sock. Bought a pair
of Thorlos and a pair of Wigam to test them against each other but my
nephew grabbed the thorlos before I could use them.

Frank
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:50:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of
woodworking machinery moving to china.

About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues are
similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as a
result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful"
individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an hour
with an average experience level of 25 years.

While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see
first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see
cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace iron
that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot
that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the
powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see
literally every batch of finished product from China reworked before
it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries,
emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality hold,
and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that
tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing, I
got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really materialized.
Maybe some day.


I understand where you are coming from. The one sentence that really stick
out is: "I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that never was machined to
statistical capability, and final the powers that be turn their heads and
use it anyway." I have a problem with a company doing that.


I believe it happens often. Picture a company making this decision
after listening to the consultants telling them how great it's going
to be. Then they set up a time line and start to build bridging
quantities in their U. S. operations that are being shut down. Then
things don't go well with the transition. Those promises made by the
Taiwanese brokers (who are really running the show) aren't kept. The
bridging quantity gets depleted. You are facing a season with nothing
to sell. So what do you do? You sell the stuff that is not quite
right something you said in the beginning you would never do.

Frank

I'd realy like to know the answers to so many questions when companies
decide to go overseas. Profit, of course, is a big motivator, but there are
many "what ifs".

The US built tools have to compete with other major brands, such as Jet and
Grizzly. In the end, what is the real cost difference when you back out the
emergency air shipments and re-work? What happens to the company reputation
when quality drops? What happens if the US manufacturing is kept in place,
but at a reduced capacity because some sales are lost to the cheaper
competition? How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?







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Frank Boettcher wrote:
....

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. ...


Yes, but it's the size of that market that was under question here.

--


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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 09:05:55 -0500, "Mike Marlow"
wrote:

I just know I'm going to regret touching my toe into a religious diversion,
but abortion is not a Christian issue.


In a lot of cases, especially in the U.S. it most certainly is. If
you want to say it isn't SOLELY a Christian issue, you'd be right, but
try telling that to groups like Operation Rescue.
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:11:20 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Bingo, it's an individual conscience thing, and not a basis for
condemning the whole nation of China. If there were universal
consensus that it was absolutely wrong then things might be different,
but there isn't.


Besides the fact that it isn't the Chinese companies that are forcing
abortion on anyone, it's the government which has nothing whatsoever
to do with the quality of the tools their companies put out.
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:20:00 GMT, FrozenNorth
wrote:

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough product to
cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't enough people willing
to spend extra for a quality product to support the facilities to create
that quality. Unfortunately this extends far beyond wood working tools,
but to pretty much everything we need in life, including a nice pair of
warm socks.


The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional
capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an
"inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a
point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than
miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat
within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it
that flat?

Most people would say no.
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:49:17 GMT, FrozenNorth
wrote:

Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the sole wears
out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or so years ago.


You can still find plenty of warm socks that are made the same way,
they just cost 20x more than the ones that don't. It's usually more
cost effective to buy 20 pairs of socks over time than to buy just one
at a high initial cost, it ends up costing the same but you get to
spread the price out over time.
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


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Brian Henderson took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 04:06
pm and wrote the following:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of spending some
of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies.

--
Lits Slut #9
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code.
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"Brian Henderson" wrote in message

The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional
capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an
"inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a
point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than
miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat
within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it
that flat?

Most people would say no.


The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes,
I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be
noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain
satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed
to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth
the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll
pay something less of a difference.

While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules
applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the
USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of
lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I
did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps
answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great
http://www.rapidreel.com/


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Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 14:09:27 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

FrozenNorth wrote:
J. Clarke took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007
12:47
pm and wrote the following:

FrozenNorth wrote:
dpb took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24, 2007 11:53
am
and wrote the following:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by
experienced
craftsmen?

Not nearly enough, apparently...

That is the crux of the problem, the company has to move enough
product to cover overheads and show a bottom line. There isn't
enough people willing to spend extra for a quality product to
support
the facilities to create that quality. Unfortunately this
extends
far beyond wood working tools, but to pretty much everything we
need
in life, including a nice pair of warm socks.

If you can't find a nice pair of warm socks you aren't looking
very
hard. My expedition weight Thorlos keep my feet nicely warm on
my
motorcycle at highway speeds in New England winter weather.

Oh, I can find warm socks, problem is they don't last, before the
sole wears out. They just aren't as good as they were twenty or
so
years ago.


Try Thorlos.

--

Are they durable? Been looking for a new running sock. Bought a
pair
of Thorlos and a pair of Wigam to test them against each other but
my
nephew grabbed the thorlos before I could use them.


For certain values of "durable". Been wearing them for I dunno, maybe
15 years, and finally tossed some of the oldest ones the other day.
They make so many specialized variations though that it's difficult to
generalize.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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Frank Boettcher wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 16:50:50 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message

I am retired earlier than I had wanted to be partly as a result of
woodworking machinery moving to china.

About 350 very good, experienced, productive friends and collegues
are similarly positioned or are working below their skill level as
a
result of moving product to China. These "greedy, slothful"
individuals were making a pure killing at an average of $13.50 an
hour with an average experience level of 25 years.

While working the transition of the product to china, I got to see
first hand the differences in the component quality. I got to see
cast iron that ranged from 145 to 225 brinnell hardness replace
iron
that ranged from 195 to 205. I got to see pilot lot after pilot
lot
that never was machined to statistical capability, and final the
powers that be turn their heads and use it anyway. I got see
literally every batch of finished product from China reworked
before
it could be distributed. I got to experience missed deliveries,
emergency air freight shipments, orders constantly on quality
hold,
and these things added to the shipment costs, warranty costs that
tripled, and the overhead required to" manage" chinese purchasing,
I
got to see that those anticipated "savings" never really
materialized. Maybe some day.


I understand where you are coming from. The one sentence that
really stick out is: "I got to see pilot lot after pilot lot that
never was machined to statistical capability, and final the powers
that be turn their heads and use it anyway." I have a problem with
a company doing that.


I believe it happens often. Picture a company making this decision
after listening to the consultants telling them how great it's going
to be. Then they set up a time line and start to build bridging
quantities in their U. S. operations that are being shut down. Then
things don't go well with the transition. Those promises made by
the
Taiwanese brokers (who are really running the show) aren't kept.
The
bridging quantity gets depleted. You are facing a season with
nothing
to sell. So what do you do? You sell the stuff that is not quite
right something you said in the beginning you would never do.


I thought that the Chinese and the Taiwanese refused to acknowledge
each other.

Frank

I'd realy like to know the answers to so many questions when
companies decide to go overseas. Profit, of course, is a big
motivator, but there are many "what ifs".

The US built tools have to compete with other major brands, such as
Jet and Grizzly. In the end, what is the real cost difference when
you back out the emergency air shipments and re-work? What happens
to the company reputation when quality drops? What happens if the
US manufacturing is kept in place, but at a reduced capacity
because
some sales are lost to the cheaper competition? How many people
are
willing to spend $xxx more for brand D knowing they have superior
quality of a machine built by experienced craftsmen?


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FrozenNorth wrote:
Brian Henderson took a can of maroon spray paint on November 24,
2007
04:06 pm and wrote the following:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money,
why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


Obvious answer, they were reaping in the profits, instead of
spending
some of that money to improve quality and R&D in new technologies.


The big problem was that they were heavily invested in tube technology
and didn't really understand the potential of solid state. The
Japanese, on the other hand, weren't invested in anything, since their
infrastructure was pretty much nonexistant thanks to Slum Clearance
Project B-29, and when they started over they decided to take a chance
on this new solid state stuff. Turned out to be a good gamble for
them.

Wasn't so much that their quality was better as that they could make
things smaller and lighter and that consumed less power. The thing
that _made_ the Japanese electronics industry as a player in the US
consumer market was Sony's little battery-powered TV sets. Just
couldn't do those with tubes. If you took one apart, the build
quality wasn't all that good--the solder joints on mine (I had
occasion to open it up the other day after 30 years or so of
operation) are about like the joints on the first generation of
Chinese video boards that I encountered--hand work, not wave-soldered,
but then at the time hand work was considered by the consumers to be
superior to machine-soldered printed circuits. Wasn't less money
either, those Sony sets cost _more_ than American sets.

--
--
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Frank Boettcher wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 10:53:43 -0600, dpb wrote:

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
...

... How many people are willing to spend $xxx more for brand D
knowing they have superior quality of a machine built by experienced
craftsmen?


Not nearly enough, apparently...



.... snip

I think we may have discussed this before. Did the market demand the
switch or did the corporate hacks just listen to their consultants and
believe their BS about "conversion costs" etc? It was the latter not
the former in my case. The customers for my product left *after* the
move, not before.

There will always be a segment of the market that wants high quality
and is willing to pay a reasonable amount more for that quality. If
they can find it.


... and the Delta tool line was one of those places that people were
willing to pay for that quality.

Now the consultants have been paid, the switch has been made such that
recovery to the pre-change state is most likely nearly impossible, and the
executives are left with a dwindling market in that segment with a high
return rate and higher warranty costs. You know what that means, right?
They are going to have to bring in some highly paid consultants to identify
the problems and get recommendations for turning things around.

--
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"Frank Boettcher" wrote in message
...
Sinp



Yesterday, I installed a kitchen sink and after spending the time to
install the brand new strainer basket (from China) I got to take it
back out because the threads were bad and would not hold the tailpiece
nut. In my life seems like this is at least a weekly occurance on
some defective chinese component. I'm slowly learning to test every
brand new chinese component before I use it to save time. Now many
times I buy it, open it in the store, test it and only leave the store
with it if it is good. Saves the trip back.



You can probably guess where I stand on the matter. If I have a
choice of a product that is made in the U.S. or any other country of
origin that has proven quality, I'll buy it. Many times there is no
choice.


Well, I know that there quality sink strainers available, why not buy
quality and or American to begin with? Are you complaining about products
being manufactured in China and at the same time buying them? You are
seeing first hand why these jobs are going to other countries. You don't
want to pay the price that the Americans want to charge.



I never had a problem with the Japanese grabbing market share in the
automobile business. They did it the right way, that is they made a
higher quality product and sold it at a fair price which resulted in
value. That's not the case on most things from china.


I certainly recall when Japan sold to the US just like China is now. Until
Japan started dictating the quality instead of letting the American
importers dictate or decide on the acceptable quality Japan did not have
such a rosy appearance either. If Americans importers imported the Quality
China products we would see better products.





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"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!


I gotta agree with you hare Bryan. The simple fact is, the world economy is
changing at a fast pace. Either learn new skills to keep up your comfprt
spending level or fall backwards.




The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


The simple answer is that those that think you can maintain the Status Quo
and get paid the same are the ones that are in control and letting every
thing slip away.



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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality
to better than ours (US)..
One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and
renovation..

Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and
they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and
rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in
the US was almost 100 years old...
Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and
found out what the American people wanted and made it..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:02:22 -0800 (PST), Hoosierpopi
wrote:


Lastly(?) there are tools you just want to experiment with to see if
the investment in the FEIN version might be worth the 10X price
differential over the chink rip-off. (E)

Been there, done that, but it sort of drives home my earlier point about
quality, not country of origin..

Biscuit jointers looked like a cool tool, but I wasn't ready to pay $150 to find
out... I bought one on sale at HF for $20 on sale.. Made in China and it was a
POS, but it made me realize that biscuit jointing was a useful concept..
My wife then bought me the Craftsman/De Walt version... Also made in China, but
IMO a good tool that has lasted for years so far..



mac

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"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 08:02:22 -0800 (PST), Hoosierpopi

wrote:


Lastly(?) there are tools you just want to experiment with to see if
the investment in the FEIN version might be worth the 10X price
differential over the chink rip-off. (E)

Been there, done that, but it sort of drives home my earlier point about
quality, not country of origin..


Precicely! Most of the China imports are simply the best quality for the
amount of money spent.



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mac davis wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.

Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality
to better than ours (US)..
One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and
renovation..

Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and
they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and
rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in
the US was almost 100 years old...
Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and
found out what the American people wanted and made it..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


Have to agree with you Mac. Remember when "J.A.Pan & Co." meant junk or
popcorn toys (must be dating myself there). Their first cars into North
America were a joke, but they did their homework and now they are
forerunners in industry. It seems that China may be following the same
route.
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mac davis wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.


Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can
quality to better than ours (US)..
One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research
and renovation..


That and/or the fact that Japanese industry can do updates and renovations

Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry
and they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel
mill and rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest
steel mill in the US was almost 100 years old...


One of the reasons for that is the significant resistance of organized
labor to any changes in plant configuration that might automate something
and take away a job. They were successful for a while, but that eventually
caught up to both the steel and auto industries. I believe Leon posted a
while back about the amount in a new GM car that goes to pay the health
insurance for retired workers.

Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their
homework and found out what the American people wanted and made it..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing


--
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On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:20:27 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Brian Henderson" wrote in message

The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional
capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than an
"inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There comes a
point where miniscule improvements only come at a much more than
miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top is flat
within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to get it
that flat?

Most people would say no.


The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the curve. Yes,
I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more, it had better be
noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At 5%, there is a certain
satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when needed, even if never needed
to that accuracy. If I can spot the differences at ten paces, it is worth
the extra. If I need an electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll
pay something less of a difference.

While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of rules
applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus made in the
USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable in the name of
lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a Delta made here? I
did buy a hose reel for the garden this year and paid $179 if that helps
answer your question. Last one I'll ever have to buy and it works great
http://www.rapidreel.com/


I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is
trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool
dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home Depot.
Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality... the
best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the company's
formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter.

I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it
passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is a
quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.

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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:22:11 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote:

Sears used to mean quality... the
best.


While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I
don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was
simply the only game in town.



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On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 08:21:22 -0600, "Leon"
wrote:

-snip of faux talking points-
Buying American does not guarantee better quality nor does it help the
economy unless we get what we pay for. Paying some one to do a **** poor
job or manufacture a sub par product is bad for the economy.


Then we have the other side of the coin.
Let's take Delta as an example.

Established, long term, excellent reputation for WW machinery.
Happened to be made in USA (vs, say Japan).
Moved production to China.
Quality went to H#LL.

Never was one to buy strictly American, but when American (or Japan,
or Germany,...) had the reputation for the best, that's what I buy.
Now, they keep their premium pricing - for Chinese junk.

This is my big issue - premium pricing remains - production costs waay
down after moving to China; quality inevitably deterioted in some way.

Won't be buying new Delta any time soon. Maybe one day the quality
will be back, the customer service will have some folks who know the
difference between the stationary tools and portable stuff, then can
revisit decision.

Renata
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Bob the Tomato wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:20:27 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote:


"Brian Henderson" wrote in
message

The question is, does that extra quality translate into additional
capacity for the tool, does it actually work that much better than
an "inferior" tool to make it worth the additional cost. There
comes a point where miniscule improvements only come at a much
more
than miniscule cost. Does it really matter if your table saw top
is
flat within a billionth of an inch? Is it worth an extra 20% to
get it that flat?

Most people would say no.


The hard part is finding out exactly where that point is on the
curve. Yes, I'm willing to pay more for accuracy. For 20% more,
it
had better be noticeable. At 10%, it had better be useable. At
5%,
there is a certain satisfaction knowing the tool is capable when
needed, even if never needed to that accuracy. If I can spot the
differences at ten paces, it is worth the extra. If I need an
electron microscope, to tell the difference, I'll pay something
less
of a difference.

While tools made in China is the question here, the same set of
rules
applies to other purchases as well, even made in the USA versus
made
in the USA. Most everything is engineered to be barely acceptable
in
the name of lower price and/or more profit. Would I pay more for a
Delta made here? I did buy a hose reel for the garden this year
and
paid $179 if that helps answer your question. Last one I'll ever
have to buy and it works great http://www.rapidreel.com/


I think, at a certain point it becomes obvious that a company is
trying to bilk you for every red cent they can. Walk thru the tool
dept at Sears lately? It's more like Harbor Freight than Home
Depot.
Yet the prices are still up there. Sears used to mean quality...
the
best. Now it means the bean counters are going to grind the
company's
formerly good name into the dirt to make a good profit this quarter.


Huh? Was in there a couple of days ago, they still have the Bosch
jigsaws and the Orion hybrid saws and the polished wrenches and so on
that they had a year ago.

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on
as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that
market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you
couldn't afford Snap-On.

Their Craftsman Professional power tools have always been decent,
seldom the best in the industry but one could count on them to do what
they were supposed to do and still can. One example is their jigsaw,
which is clearly a relabelled Bosch (and jigsaws don't _come_ better
than Bosch) but not the latest and greatest model. I've seen
accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened
versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their
innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.

Their bench tools have always been a mixed bag--some have been decent,
some crap. Right now their Orion table saws are probably the best
table saw they've ever sold under their own brand. Their radial arm
saws are mechanically pretty much like they were 30 years ago, they've
just changed the trim and added a few bells and whistles over the
years. Their new band saws are quite good--they cut corners on
features, not on cutting ability.


I don't mind paying for quality. Once in a while I buy cheap, if it
passes the grade. But I will pass the junk every time. If there is
a
quality tool available, I will buy it if I can.


--
--
--John
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(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)


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The answer to wasted superiority is simple - cheaper labor equals more
and much bigger profits for the U.S. companies, who happen to be the
cronies of the current administration.

mac davis wrote:
On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 21:06:27 GMT, Brian Henderson
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 12:09:52 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:

Uh, you missed their taking over the entire consumer electronics
industry.

Because the Japanese could make a better product for less money, why
shouldn't they take over the industry? They earned it!

The question you should be asking is why the U.S. completely wasted
their superiority.


I watched the transition in the quality of Japanese steel.. from tin can quality
to better than ours (US)..
One of the reasons is that the Japanese government underwrites research and
renovation..

Back maybe 10 or 15 years, I watched a documentary on the steel industry and
they were pointing out that Japan was tearing down it's oldest steel mill and
rebuilding it to be better and efficient... and that the newest steel mill in
the US was almost 100 years old...
Same thing happened to our auto industry... the Japanese did their homework and
found out what the American people wanted and made it..


mac

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"J. Clarke" wrote in message

Their reputation was made on hand tools, not power, and finish on
their hand tools is better than it was 20 years ago. They see Snap-on
as their competitor in that market and it shows. But even in that
market Craftsman was never "the best", they were what you got if you
couldn't afford Snap-On.


But their open end and box wrenches of 40 years ago were better designed
than the ones today. You could bet better leverage but they cost more to
make.



I've seen
accusations that the Craftsman Professional tools are cheapened
versions, but I've never seen anyone post side-by-side photos of their
innards that demonstrates this, it's always been vague assertions.


I've heard accusation that Home Depot tools are cheapened compared to the
same DeWalt bough at the local hardware stores also, but I've never seen
proof.


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On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:14:12 GMT, "Bonehenge (B A R R Y)"
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 12:22:11 GMT, Bob the Tomato
wrote:

Sears used to mean quality... the
best.


While it was plenty "good enough", especially for the DIY world, I
don't think Sears was ever "The Best". In many cases, Sears was
simply the only game in town.


I mean "the best" in terms of what was readily available to the
average guy walking in off the street. I have never been to a snap-on
dealer, or ever purchased one of their tools, because we simply run in
different circles. I'm not a professional mechanic. (I'm talking
hand tools in this instance, although the same argument could be made
for hand held power tools, but probably not for heavy stationary
tools... since Sears really didn't try to get into that market.)
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