Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try, and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical labor.

True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

In article , Silvan
wrote:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.


That's because it's such a flexible tool. It's not always the best tool
for a given job, but if you don't happen to own the best took for your
job, there's a pretty good chance that a router can fill in. And there
are some jobs that a router does better than any other tool. But because
it's such a flexible tool, it's often necessary to build jigs that adapt
it to a task, perhaps by holding it in a fixed position or by limiting
it's motion to a particular range.



I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try, and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.


That's great! I doubt anyone here would laugh at you for spending the time
to learn to cut dovetails by hand. It's absolutely a good skill to have,
and if you continue to develop that skill it'll serve you well. Likewise,
cutting dovetails with a router is a good skill to have, and one that
requires a certain amount of practice. It may not be important for the
work that you choose, and that's fine. On the other hand, if you needed
to build a kitchen full of cabinets including a dozen or two drawers,
being skilled with router and dovetail jig would be very important.
It's not that you couldn't do them by hand, just that you could do them
faster and cheaper with router and jig.



I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical labor.


That sounds a little self-defeating. You've never really learned to use
your router, and yet you don't think you'd like it? A router is like any
other tool, from a table saw to a hand plane... you need to understand it,
and you need to think about how to use it efficiently. Ideally, you want
to set up for a job once, and then cut every part of your project that
needs that setup at the same time. This will not only speed your work, but
make it more accurate as well. (The same goes for any tool, particularly the
table saw.)

You also need to get to know your particular router. Example: I've heard
people complain that it's very difficult to remove the motor from a
Porter Cable 693 plunge base because it's so hard to remove the little
allen screw that tightens the base around the motor. Well, it sure is
difficult to remove that screw, but you're not supposed to remove it.
You just loosen it, and the motor slides right out. There's no need to
make life difficult by not bothering to understand your tool.

Now, maybe your router really is a crappy one that performs badly and
is difficult to use. If that's the case, don't fall into the trap of
thinking that all routers are equally disappointing. But before you
discount it, spend some time thinking about the problems you have with
it and whether there might be good solutions, or whether they really
are inherent in the machine. If the latter, sell it and go get a demo of a
better model.



True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.


So there's another self-defeating behavior. You don't use your router table
because it's "too much bother," yet you make it too much bother by making
it difficult to get to. Honestly, putting a bit in your router and setting
the bit depth shouldn't take more than two or three minutes, even on a
two-wrench model like the PC 690.

Also, as with any tool, keep in mind that time you spend in setting up an
operation ensures that you do the job right. And again, a lot of the payoff
for the time you spend setting up comes when you can easily and accurately
repeat the operation using the same setup for multiple workpieces. If I'm
making box joints on either the table saw or the router table, I usually
take more time setting up than I do cutting both ends of all four sides of
the box. Overall, I end up saving time and doing a better job compared to
what I personally am able to achieve with a hand saw.



Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?


Sounds like a matter of personal preference combined with lack of training
and possibly a cheap tool. If you're interested in giving the router a chance,
pick up a book such as "Woodworking With the Router: Professional Router
Techniques and Jigs Any Woodworker Can Use" by Hylton and Matlack.

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I love mine. Spends most of its time in the table.

These
http://www.livejournal.com/users/que...10.html#cutid1
are just three layers of stacked MDF, bandsawn to a profile and then
run over a chamfer bit. Easy to do, and most of all - quick !

I just cut my first dovetails today.

Congratulations. I don't use a router for mine, I hand cut them.

The dovetail isn't the appropriate joint for most purposes. It's slow
to cut (biscuits are quickest), not as strong as a finger joint with
modern adhesives, and awkward to assemble. However they're still the
signature joint for quality work, and they'll hold together in 100
years, after hide glue has failed.

So if you're going to do dovetails, do good ones ! Get the
proprotions to be attractive, and that still means hand-cutting them.

--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 09:08:14 -0400, Trent©
wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:


Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?


I sort of feel the same way.

However, if there are several drawers that need dovetails, especially
half-blind dovetails, I will use my router. Otherwise The Red Sox will
have won the World Series before I finish the project!

Also, there's no other really decent way to make nice edges on table-
and cabinet-tops.

One does need a little deep masochism for when the beast slips,
though!

James

Silvan wrote:

snip

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.


It sounds like your woodworking may be as much about the journey as the
destination. If you truly enjoy the process of woodowrking, your
projects will as enjoyable to do as hey are to complete.

The whole Generation X expectation of immediate gratification, combined
with equipment manufacturers pushing the sale of hardware, has made
turning out projects more important than actually working on them. At
some point you will decide which show you like better:T he Woodright's
Shop or The New Yankee Workshop...

Tim

Caleb Strockbine wrote:

to build a kitchen full of cabinets including a dozen or two drawers,
being skilled with router and dovetail jig would be very important.
It's not that you couldn't do them by hand, just that you could do them
faster and cheaper with router and jig.

Faster maybe. Cheaper is a hard case to make, since I'm already cutting
dovetails without buying anything new. I'll get better at it, so I expect
to waste a lot less wood in the future.

I take your meaning though, and I'd probably feel differently if I were
working on a huge project with lots of similar parts, or if my shop time
had any monetary value.

That sounds a little self-defeating. You've never really learned to use
your router, and yet you don't think you'd like it? A router is like any

Well, that's not quite right. I've never really *bothered* to use my
router. It's slightly different. I tried a lot of things when I first got
it, and I have several of those "50,000,001 Inspiring Router Ideas" books,
but over the course of time the thing has definitely collected more sawdust
than it has made, and most of the "inspiring" ideas have gone untried.

I won't say I mastered any of the techniques, but neither did I do such a
bad job that I was disappointed and discouraged beyond hope. A better
router would definitely make some things easier, but I keep pushing it to
the bottom of my priority list. It isn't really defeat so much as
ambivalence. I find I don't really care whether I get a better router
some day or not. There's just not much allure there.

I guess that's what it comes down to. For a one-off, or a two-off, the
router is more of a PITA than it's worth to me. The jigs, the setup, the
noise, the mess. (A DC is something else on the list ahead of a new router.)

I don't mass-produce things, don't make *big* things, and repeatability is no
big concern. Everything is a one-off, and I'm not in a hurry. My shop time
is a lot more relaxing and enjoyable when I don't flip on the banshee.

So there's another self-defeating behavior. You don't use your router
table because it's "too much bother," yet you make it too much bother by
making it difficult to get to. Honestly, putting a bit in your router and

Nah, it isn't that. I have stuff there because I rarely use it, not the
other way around. All of my horizontal surfaces become item collectors at
some point. The difference with the router is I almost never have a need
to move stuff off of it.

Anyway, I'm not really looking to figure out what's "wrong" with me. I'm
comfortable being me. I've just been mulling over some thoughts, and I was
wondering if I'm the only one to realize one day that he doesn't find
routers particularly magical.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Sat, Oct 18, 2003, 1:07am (Silvan) asks
the rhetorical question:
snip Am I nuts? snip

My router's in my router table, flush trim bit in it, never changed
unless I need a new one, and never raised or lowered. One of the most
used powertools in my shop.

But if you really want to get full benefit of a router, you really
need to plug it in, then turn it on.


JOAT
I'd be happy to help you out. Which way did you come in?

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 17 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

In article ,
says...
Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

I have no objection to power tools, use them all the time, but I find
myself shying away from the router unless there is no viable alternative.
And then I'll almost always opt for the router table rather than
handheld.

I guess that spinning bit attached to a heavy weight and guided only by
my two hands just strikes me as the most dangerous tool in the shop. I
can't drop my table saw :-).

--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

Now you just hit on a marvelous idea! Why CAN't we do dovetails on a
drill press?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try, and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical labor.

True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

I like routers better in the router table--less noise, less dust. I
use them for round-overs, cutting dutchmen, hinge mortising, or
decorative moldings. I used to make dovetail joints with routers, but
now I prefer cutting dovetails by hand.

"Lawrence A. Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Now you just hit on a marvelous idea! Why CAN't we do dovetails on a
drill press?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare
router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try,
and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to
spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical
labor.

True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need
to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Anything less than a industrial strength drill press will have their
bearings destroyed in very short order. They are not designed to take high
side loads.
--
Jim in NC

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
pixelated:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

Many of these guys use poly, too, so there's no accounting for taste.


Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

You call a bloody 98DB shrieker "alluring"?
Shirley, ewe jest.


Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

Newp.


I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Bueno, bwana.


-------------------------------------------------------------
give me The Luxuries Of Life * http://www.diversify.com
i can live without the necessities * 2 Tee collections online
-------------------------------------------------------------

Fac it, Silvan. Most of these young-ones on this newsgroup like to
take the easy way out. They are too cheap to spend money on quality
gear, and too lazy to do things the hard way.


"Life aint nothin' but twinks and chinks!" (Sexy gay young men and
Chinese food!) -JOAT (Jerk-Off All Twinks)

I love routers and I love the act of routering! I've got 2 PC's; one in
a Woodpecker table with the Precision Router Lift, a marvelous tool, and
one for the occasional free routering job! The router table does a
great job on anything I've thrown at it. It's fun to feed a piece of
wood into it and get a shaped, useful part out the other side. I don't
care to labor over things excessively or obsessively. I just want to
get the job down with a minimum of fuss, and a maximum of enjoyment.
For me that would only include a minimum of "Neandering", as I don't
like wasting time. I like the "building" of things, but not to the
extent that some guys carry things to the extreme by doing EVERYTHING by
hand. By that I mean jointing, rabetting, dovetails, everything done by
hand. That's just not my bag. Neanders are surely more talented than
I, but then again, I'm not comparing myself to anyone. All I care about
is the end result, having fun doing it, and not wasting time. (I know, I
know, I said that before.)

I DO cut my crown molding with a coping saw! That should count as my
concession to Neandering. Mill file, rattail file, sanding block: all
Neander stuff. Then when I put the crown up, I use my PC finish nailer!
Back to the modern world.

I carry a small plane; not a router in my pocket...


dave

Silvan wrote:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try, and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical labor.

True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

I like the router also. It doesn't take a lot of effort to dress up a
board. I regularly show my customers that edge treatments are the
difference between a plain old board and a great looking shelf (or
whatever). For some reason, that particular line of reasoning works.

Michael

Ya know, a drill press acts a lot like an overarm router.
Phil

OK, I need to respond to this. It's a fairly common myth with some basis in
fact. This is only the case older or very, very cheap DPs that use sleeve
bearings. I think the last decent one to do that was dropped in the early '80s.

The vast majority of drill presses over the years use regular sealed or
shielded ball bearings for the spindle. If you run the bearing numbers, you'll
find that they're the same ones used on many motors, shapers, grinders, and a
zillion other things that take radial loads. No problem taking the stress of
routing or sanding.

The real problem with doing anything other than drilling on a DP is the chuck
taper. the Jacobs Tapers are designed for axial loads and not radial. Putting a
high side loaded can, and frequently does cause the chuck to fly off and carom
around the room. That's why some DPs used to come with locking collars--so you
could rout safely.

Using Locksite "Secures Gears" (a cylindrical locker adhesive) will keep your
chuck from flying off, but you'll never been able to change it again.

GTO(John)

Anything less than a industrial strength drill press will have their
bearings destroyed in very short order. They are not designed to take high
side loads.
--
Jim in NC

Morgans wrote:

Now you just hit on a marvelous idea! Why CAN't we do dovetails on a
drill press?

Might be useful for removing some of the waste maybe. I don't think I'd try
spinning a dovetail bit with it. 3,100 RPM vs. 25,000 RPM... I doubt it
would do a good job.

Anything less than a industrial strength drill press will have their
bearings destroyed in very short order. They are not designed to take
high side loads.

That's why I'm getting a JET mini lathe from Santa SWMBO this year. She's
pretty upset at having to spend my entire budget on one thing instead of
getting the joy of shopping to buy me a bunch of useless crap, but I'm
getting a great deal on a great machine, and I can stop torturing my drill
press.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

brocpuffs wrote:

Also, there's no other really decent way to make nice edges on table-
and cabinet-tops.

I'm thinking about getting a shaper. I don't use my router for any of the
things a router can do that a shaper can't, and I think a shaper would be a
better shaper than a router.

It's still really low down though. Need a replacement sander, then a
bandsaw, then maybe a router or shaper, maybe, but probably not. There
will be something else in between. There always is.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Larry Jaques wrote:

Many of these guys use poly, too, so there's no accounting for taste.

cough

Um. Yeah, I hate guys who use poly. I hate guys who make stuff out of pine
too.

looks in mirror

I'd better shut up now.

You call a bloody 98DB shrieker "alluring"?
Shirley, ewe jest.

I've taken to calling it the Banshee.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Bueno, bwana.

I'm going to get some shellac one of these days. The stuff I'm getting into
is screaming for shellac.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

The Guy wrote:

It sounds like your woodworking may be as much about the journey as the
destination. If you truly enjoy the process of woodowrking, your
projects will as enjoyable to do as hey are to complete.

There's definitely something to that.

I could sit here for an hour thinking out loud, but I guess I'll spare
everyone. In the end, I can leave all the self analysis at the door and
just consider that if I'm content, that's really all I need to worry about.


turning out projects more important than actually working on them. At
some point you will decide which show you like better:T he Woodright's
Shop or The New Yankee Workshop...

I used to watch both when I watched them, but that was many years before I
ever touched a tool or a piece of wood that wasn't bound for the fireplace.
I don't think I've seen either show since I got out of high school.

I've always admired Roy, but I don't quite want to give up *all* power. For
one thing, I've just ordered a lathe, and I really do want to get a bandsaw
soon.

I could resaw these oak 6x6s with a hand saw for less money, but I guess I'm
not *that* much of a Neander. At least not yet...

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

On 18 Oct 2003 20:04:33 -0700, (Phil) wrote:

I just started doing more woodworking projects. My router had lain
idle for about 3 yrs. I got a new set of bits and am having a lot of
fun doing things that i hadn't been able to do before, mainly because
i only had a basic set of bits. I am also going to take up using a
scraper instead of using sandpaper so much. I do woodworking for fun,
so i use what is fun for me, in this case a router. i would imagine
that those who are against power tools are having fun doing it their
way. Also have a really old hand planer passed down from my father
which I haven't mastered yet, but i will. So i do my own thing, my own
way, whatever I find fun. If its power tools then its power tools. If
and when it ceases to be fun, then i will dedicate more time to my
other interests.
Ken, making dust/chips in NS

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:56:25 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

Many of these guys use poly, too, so there's no accounting for taste.

cough

Um. Yeah, I hate guys who use poly. I hate guys who make stuff out of pine
too.

I really like pine furniture, but it makes a total mess out of the
cutters and it's a POA to stain and seeps resins as the piece ages.
Unlike other types of wood, a pine piece doesn't weigh a ton after
it's completed. Too bad we got the chestnut blight--it is truly a
beautiful wood.


looks in mirror

I'd better shut up now.

You call a bloody 98DB shrieker "alluring"?
Shirley, ewe jest.

I've taken to calling it the Banshee.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Bueno, bwana.

I'm going to get some shellac one of these days. The stuff I'm getting into
is screaming for shellac.

Hey! I LIKE poly! Shiny, easy, bulletproof--what's not to like?
Just because shellac is edible doesn't mean you should use it.

-Phil Crow

But a dovetail would be a straight load. And I know about side-thrust
because I got blasted for it a few weeks ago on here.

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 15:27:59 -0400, "Morgans"
wrote:


"Lawrence A. Ramsey" wrote in message
.. .
Now you just hit on a marvelous idea! Why CAN't we do dovetails on a
drill press?

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:

Lots of folks here have a router in their pocket, a router on their tool
belt, a router in their backpack, a router in the table, and a spare
router
under the bench.

Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try,
and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

I'm finding the more I do with chisels and hand planes, the less I'm
interested in using a router to do things. I've never used my router for
much anyway. It's a bad router, granted, but even if it didn't have the
problems it does, I don't think I'd like it. Seems like you have to
spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical
labor.

True, I do this all the time on the drill press. I spend 15 minutes
changing the setup to make one hole in one piece sometimes, then turn
around and do it again. I love playing with my drill press, and I don't
mind the setup time. Yet when faced with the same problem on another
machine, I can rarely be bothered to get it out and futz with it. My
router table usually serves as a temporary holding area for stuff I need
to
put away. It's totally paradoxical.

Am I nuts? How is it that this most marvelous and alluring tool does not
excite me?

Just wondering if I'm the only one, I guess.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Anything less than a industrial strength drill press will have their
bearings destroyed in very short order. They are not designed to take high
side loads.

Silvan wrote:

Seems like you have to spend
forever changing bits, changing depths, changing bases, setting up
templates or jigs or hold-downs or fences or some damn thing in order to
use the thing for three minutes and save yourself a little physical labor.

I think I'm turning into a Neander.

Once you've made a full complement of moulding planes you'll see that
it's a bit more than a "little" physical labor.

Ken Muldrew

(remove all letters after y in the alphabet)

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 01:07:02 -0400, Silvan
wrote:


Many of you just seem to absolutely *love* these things.


I love mine. Spends most of its time in the table.

These
http://www.livejournal.com/users/que...10.html#cutid1
are just three layers of stacked MDF, bandsawn to a profile and then
run over a chamfer bit. Easy to do, and most of all - quick !


Beautiful gothic arches! Could I have some of the plans or source
material for it? I wanted to build some into a baby's crib for my
baby-to-be instead of prison-bars slats.

Hasan

Bay Area Dave wrote in message y.com...

For me that would only include a minimum of "Neandering", as I don't
like wasting time.

Some folks don't consider doing things by hand to be wasting time.

Back to the original question: I'm in the camp of those who very
rarely use a routah. When I bought my PC I spent all of my time
trying to use it for everything possible (when the only tool you have
is a hammer ...). As I developed my handtools skills and acquired
various tools, I started to move away from it.

After we moved into our current house, it stayed packed up for
about two years. I finally got it out a few months ago when I was
working on a flybox and later a fly-tying station, because it was the
right tool for the job. Since then, it's been relegated to the back
wall of shop where it will sit until needed again.

I never enjoyed working with the thing. Carbide bits spinning at
21,000 r.p.m. right at crotch level just isn't my idea of fun. Plus
the fact that it spews dust and chips all over the shop, and one slip
can destroy a project (or a finger) in a millisecond. Naw, for the
most part I prefer to "waste my time" with plow planes, molding
planes, and scratch stocks.


Chuck Vance

I just cut my first dovetails today. I did them by hand, with an X-acto
razor saw. They came out pretty well, considering it was my first try, and
it occurs to me that I have no desire to buy the jig and the bit and futz
around with the setup in order to save myself time by doing these with a
machine some day.

My Leigh jig is very easy to setup, no futzing necessary. There
really isn't any trial and error. I made 4 drawers in about 90
minutes with it.

Thu, Oct 23, 2003, 6:55am (EDT-3) (Conan=A0the=A0Librarian)
claims:
snip it spews dust and chips all over the shop snip

You left out that they're noisy. Loud and messy, the perfect man's
machine.

Damn, that also describes kids, and probably 3/4s of the people
here. Hmm, might have to rethink. LOL And, no, I'm not loud.

JOAT
Make my shorts. Eat my day.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT
Web Page Update 21 Oct 2003.
Some tunes I like.
http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/

Chuck, I have one of my routers in a downdraft cabinet router table, so
dust AND noise is minimized. I can hook up my Fein shop vac to the
fence, and the DC to the downdraft. That pretty much covers the mess.
The cabinet muffles a lot of the noise, but because my ears are
sensitive (actually ONE ear -- lost the hearing in the left to an
acoustic neuroma a few years back) I wear ear protection.

I spent several hours last night perusing the Lee Valley catalog where
some things were jumping off the page, screaming for a home. Namely a
Veritas low angle block plane, some gouges, and scraper.

Which leads me to a question(s): There are scraper blades that you bend
with your thumb, scraper handles almost like a spoke shave, and scraper
inserts for a plane. Is one style more popular and useful, or does each
style have it's proponents, OR is there a need for each type in one
woodworkers arsenal? I work oak and will be working cherry and maybe maple.

Conan the Librarian wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote in message y.com...


For me that would only include a minimum of "Neandering", as I don't
like wasting time.


Some folks don't consider doing things by hand to be wasting time.

Back to the original question: I'm in the camp of those who very
rarely use a routah. When I bought my PC I spent all of my time
trying to use it for everything possible (when the only tool you have
is a hammer ...). As I developed my handtools skills and acquired
various tools, I started to move away from it.

After we moved into our current house, it stayed packed up for
about two years. I finally got it out a few months ago when I was
working on a flybox and later a fly-tying station, because it was the
right tool for the job. Since then, it's been relegated to the back
wall of shop where it will sit until needed again.

I never enjoyed working with the thing. Carbide bits spinning at
21,000 r.p.m. right at crotch level just isn't my idea of fun. Plus
the fact that it spews dust and chips all over the shop, and one slip
can destroy a project (or a finger) in a millisecond. Naw, for the
most part I prefer to "waste my time" with plow planes, molding
planes, and scratch stocks.


Chuck Vance

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:34:03 GMT, Hasdrubal Hamilcar
wrote:

Beautiful gothic arches! Could I have some of the plans or source
material for it?

Thanks, I'll see what I can do.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 22:34:03 GMT, Hasdrubal Hamilcar
wrote:


Beautiful gothic arches! Could I have some of the plans or source
material for it?


Thanks, I'll see what I can do.
--
Die Gotterspammerung - Junkmail of the Gods

Anything'll be fine, even a source for a picture you found useful.

I am wondering what wood to use on the crib slats (for the side
railing). I would love to use Balsa. Is it very expensive in Canada?

thanks,
Hasan

Bay Area Dave wrote:

Chuck, I have one of my routers in a downdraft cabinet router table, so
dust AND noise is minimized. I can hook up my Fein shop vac to the
fence, and the DC to the downdraft. That pretty much covers the mess.
The cabinet muffles a lot of the noise, but because my ears are
sensitive (actually ONE ear -- lost the hearing in the left to an
acoustic neuroma a few years back) I wear ear protection.

And kevlar body armour? :-) I woodwork to relax, and all of the
safety safety precuations necessary for using a routah don't make me
feel very relaxed.

I spent several hours last night perusing the Lee Valley catalog where
some things were jumping off the page, screaming for a home. Namely a
Veritas low angle block plane, some gouges, and scraper.

Which leads me to a question(s): There are scraper blades that you bend
with your thumb, scraper handles almost like a spoke shave, and scraper
inserts for a plane. Is one style more popular and useful, or does each
style have it's proponents, OR is there a need for each type in one
woodworkers arsenal? I work oak and will be working cherry and maybe
maple.

Yes, except for the scraper insert. (I consider that one so far
inferior to the other LV scraper variations that IMHO it's a waste of
money.)

The simple card scrapers are handy for spot work where you need to
get rid of a bit of tearout. If you do curved work, buy a gooseneck one
as well. (Personally, I keep about a half-dozen different profiles
around the shop.) The one that looks like a spokeshave is their
knockoff of the Stanley cabinet scraper (#80). It's an excellent tool,
and has some definite improvements over the original Stanley. It's
handy for larger surfaces, as the base gives you a good bearing surface
that is lacking with the card scraper.

But, my new personal favorite is their scraper plane. It's based on
the Stanley #112, but once again, it has some definite improvements over
that design. They've added a thinner blade with a thumbscrew
arrangement that can flex the blade much like the #80 does. With the
extra-large sole, comfortable tote and knob and flexibility of using
either the thick or thin blade in the same plane, this will probably
replace the #80 in my shop.

For the woods you mention, a well-tuned smoother would probably
handle most of your needs, but a scraper is always handy to have around.


Chuck Vance

thanks for the info, Chuck. By "smoother" I guess you mean something
like a Veritas #4 Smooth Plane? How does a smoother differ from other
planes of the same size? Is it the angle of the blade, or ??

Do I NEED to get a burnishing tool or can I use something that I might
already have in my tool cabinet? I have a vague memory of reading
somewhere that a common tool will serve as a burnisher...

dave

Conan The Librarian wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote:

Chuck, I have one of my routers in a downdraft cabinet router table,
so dust AND noise is minimized. I can hook up my Fein shop vac to the
fence, and the DC to the downdraft. That pretty much covers the mess.
The cabinet muffles a lot of the noise, but because my ears are
sensitive (actually ONE ear -- lost the hearing in the left to an
acoustic neuroma a few years back) I wear ear protection.


And kevlar body armour? :-) I woodwork to relax, and all of the
safety safety precuations necessary for using a routah don't make me
feel very relaxed.

I spent several hours last night perusing the Lee Valley catalog where
some things were jumping off the page, screaming for a home. Namely a
Veritas low angle block plane, some gouges, and scraper.

Which leads me to a question(s): There are scraper blades that you
bend with your thumb, scraper handles almost like a spoke shave, and
scraper inserts for a plane. Is one style more popular and useful, or
does each style have it's proponents, OR is there a need for each type
in one woodworkers arsenal? I work oak and will be working cherry and
maybe maple.


Yes, except for the scraper insert. (I consider that one so far
inferior to the other LV scraper variations that IMHO it's a waste of
money.)

The simple card scrapers are handy for spot work where you need to
get rid of a bit of tearout. If you do curved work, buy a gooseneck one
as well. (Personally, I keep about a half-dozen different profiles
around the shop.) The one that looks like a spokeshave is their
knockoff of the Stanley cabinet scraper (#80). It's an excellent tool,
and has some definite improvements over the original Stanley. It's
handy for larger surfaces, as the base gives you a good bearing surface
that is lacking with the card scraper.

But, my new personal favorite is their scraper plane. It's based on
the Stanley #112, but once again, it has some definite improvements over
that design. They've added a thinner blade with a thumbscrew
arrangement that can flex the blade much like the #80 does. With the
extra-large sole, comfortable tote and knob and flexibility of using
either the thick or thin blade in the same plane, this will probably
replace the #80 in my shop.

For the woods you mention, a well-tuned smoother would probably
handle most of your needs, but a scraper is always handy to have around.


Chuck Vance

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:04:00 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:

And kevlar body armour? :-) I woodwork to relax, and all of the
safety safety precuations necessary for using a routah don't make me
feel very relaxed.

New Kevlar routing sweater a friend of mine made 8-)
http://codesmiths.com/dingbat/photos/picture.jpg

....and if you're going to look like an idiot while he fools with his
new camera-phone, then stick the fireman's helmet on too and look like
an unrecognisable idiot.


Seriously though, I'm not out in the workshop right now because I
crushed my foot this morning. 8-( Bounced a big slab of steel off
it, then had to hobble off to casualty for a X-ray, using the workshop
broom as a crutch. I didn't need the "Where's yer parrot" comments
either.

Not broken, but it's damned painful and I can't stand on it.
Yes I _was_ wearing steel toecaps. If I hadn't been, I probably would
have bust it properly. The slab hit the toe, then tilted over and
bashed the top of the arch. Going a nice colour too.


--
"When men die, their Maker may reward them for their efforts by allowing
them to live again as male dogs. Thus freed from inhibition, they can spend
a cheerful existence doing all those things they really wanted to do when
they were men."

Paneb, Foreman mason in the Valley of the Kings, circa 1190BC

Andy Dingley wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 10:04:00 -0500, Conan The Librarian
wrote:


And kevlar body armour? :-) I woodwork to relax, and all of the
safety safety precuations necessary for using a routah don't make me
feel very relaxed.


New Kevlar routing sweater a friend of mine made 8-)
http://codesmiths.com/dingbat/photos/picture.jpg

...and if you're going to look like an idiot while he fools with his
new camera-phone, then stick the fireman's helmet on too and look like
an unrecognisable idiot.


Seriously though, I'm not out in the workshop right now because I
crushed my foot this morning. 8-( Bounced a big slab of steel off
it, then had to hobble off to casualty for a X-ray, using the workshop
broom as a crutch. I didn't need the "Where's yer parrot" comments
either.
Damn, Do I miss Robert Newton. Hope it's nothing serious.
Regards,
Hank



-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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Bay Area Dave wrote in message om...

thanks for the info, Chuck. By "smoother" I guess you mean something
like a Veritas #4 Smooth Plane? How does a smoother differ from other
planes of the same size? Is it the angle of the blade, or ??

A smoother is usually about 9" long, and is set up to take a very
light cut and leave a surface ready for finishing. Veritas' #4 is a
smoother based on the old Stanley design, but with some improvements.

A standard smoother used for well-behaved woods usually has the
blade set at a 45 degree bedding angle. There are specialty planes
made that offer higher bedding angles (can be more effective on
figured hardwoods) and lower bedding angles (can also be effective on
figured hardwoods, strangely enough).

Do I NEED to get a burnishing tool or can I use something that I might
already have in my tool cabinet? I have a vague memory of reading
somewhere that a common tool will serve as a burnisher...

I'd go ahead and "splurge" for a burnishing tool. Some folks use
screwdriver shafts, carbide router bit shafts, valve stems, etc., but
the bottom line is you want something harder than the scraper and it
needs to be polished smooth.

FWIW, as a newbie to scrapers, you might want to consider the Lee
Valley variable burnisher gizmo. It'll cost you about $25, but it
will help you get a feel for what the edge/burr should feel like when
it's turned properly.


Chuck Vance

thanks AGAIN, Chuck. SWMBO wants my Christmas list. I'm gonna wear out
the pages of the LV catalog, making out that list for her. I like
having exactly the right tool for the job, so I think I should get a
REAL burnisher if it will work better than a screwdriver shaft.
Screwdrivers I own with round shafts, all have rough surfaces.

dave

Conan the Librarian wrote:

Bay Area Dave wrote in message om...


thanks for the info, Chuck. By "smoother" I guess you mean something
like a Veritas #4 Smooth Plane? How does a smoother differ from other
planes of the same size? Is it the angle of the blade, or ??


A smoother is usually about 9" long, and is set up to take a very
light cut and leave a surface ready for finishing. Veritas' #4 is a
smoother based on the old Stanley design, but with some improvements.

A standard smoother used for well-behaved woods usually has the
blade set at a 45 degree bedding angle. There are specialty planes
made that offer higher bedding angles (can be more effective on
figured hardwoods) and lower bedding angles (can also be effective on
figured hardwoods, strangely enough).


Do I NEED to get a burnishing tool or can I use something that I might
already have in my tool cabinet? I have a vague memory of reading
somewhere that a common tool will serve as a burnisher...


I'd go ahead and "splurge" for a burnishing tool. Some folks use
screwdriver shafts, carbide router bit shafts, valve stems, etc., but
the bottom line is you want something harder than the scraper and it
needs to be polished smooth.

FWIW, as a newbie to scrapers, you might want to consider the Lee
Valley variable burnisher gizmo. It'll cost you about $25, but it
will help you get a feel for what the edge/burr should feel like when
it's turned properly.


Chuck Vance