Cold glue joints
 

Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

FoggyTown

Cold glue joints
 

"FoggyTown" wrote:

Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

Glue is temperature sensitive, will take longer to cure than during warm
weather.

Might consider using heat lamps over night on joints to speed up curing.


Lew

Cold glue joints
 

FoggyTown wrote:
Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

As long as you're above the chalk temperature, they will eventually cure
to at least near full strength. I'm sure there's research on whether
there's an effect or not, but I don't have a reference to it.

The critical item is to check the manufacturer's "chalk temperature" for
the particular formulation you're using -- that's the point at which the
glue will not set at all, but simply crystallize.

One of the advantages of TiteBond III is the lower chalkpoint--47F iirc.
Type II is a fair amount higher although I don't recall the actual
number offhand. If you're getting to the point of the material itself
approaching 50F, I'd definitely be going to the Type III on general
principles.

If you can warm the work area somewhat while working and doing the
glueup, then let it cool gradually overnight after done, you can
probably get a reliable bond if it doesn't cool too quickly -- the
drying time will still be within an hour or so.

But, the suggestion of some heat lamps or other localized heat source is
a good one for safety. Hardly anything would be more frustrating than
doing a complex glueup only to find out if didn't hold completely owing
to a few degrees too cool in the shop...

--

Cold glue joints
 

dpb wrote:
FoggyTown wrote:
Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

As long as you're above the chalk temperature, they will eventually cure
to at least near full strength. I'm sure there's research on whether
there's an effect or not, but I don't have a reference to it.
....

Oh, the thing I was going to add -- for sure take the glue into the
house and keep it in a warm location; don't leave it out to reach the
near-critical temperature to start from.

--

Cold glue joints
 

On Nov 5, 7:38?pm, dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
FoggyTown wrote:
Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

As long as you're above the chalk temperature, they will eventually cure
to at least near full strength. I'm sure there's research on whether
there's an effect or not, but I don't have a reference to it.

...

Oh, the thing I was going to add -- for sure take the glue into the
house and keep it in a warm location; don't leave it out to reach the
near-critical temperature to start from.

--

Ooooooooooo! Good point! Hadn't even thought of doing that.

FoggyTown

Cold glue joints
 

'Foggy',

Lew's comment about adding heat with 'lamps' is the simplest way to go.
However I definitely DISAGREE with the idea of 'HEAT lamps'. Beside being
relative expensive, they are TOO 'efficient'. They are designed to heat
things and they do that job EXTREMELY well . . . sometimes to the point of
COMBUSTION.

I DO use 'lamps' . . . actually just 100w lightbulbs. I have a 'Dollar
Store' Styrofoam cooler for my 'working' epoxy - room for the cans of Resin
& Hardener and a METAL frame 'droplight'. Keeps things 'just toasty' so they
mix & spread well. I made a 'Lamp Rack' from a length of '2x ' stock, some
'lamp wire', and a half-dozen 'porcelain' lamp sockets. I wired them up in
parallel so I can unscrew as many of the bulbs as a 'control'.

Working on a hull, and applying the epoxy, for example. I'll place this
'rack' with maybe all lights on, under the overturned boat. When I'm
finished for the evening - I'll maybe 'unscrew' {a turn or so} maybe every
other one. If I can throw an old tarp or blanket over everything, I may just
leave the first & last lit.

I got this idea about . . cough, cough . . years ago, when I was in SEA. We
used to keep a 60w {or so} lit in our lockers - to keep the mold from taking
over ! More recently, the concept {low heat source & convection} was also
used in a film {photography}drier I built.

Regards & Good Luck,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop
{Nobody burned down the barracks {no matter how much the CO squawked}, the
drier never caught on fire, and I haven't destroyed the shop yet}

"Lew Hodgett" wrote...
"FoggyTown" wrote:

Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong . . . not really
practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

Glue is temperature sensitive, will take longer to cure than during warm
weather.

Might consider using heat lamps over night on joints to speed up curing.

Lew

Cold glue joints
 

"Ron Magen" wrote:

Lew's comment about adding heat with 'lamps' is the simplest way to
go.
However I definitely DISAGREE with the idea of 'HEAT lamps'. Beside
being
relative expensive, they are TOO 'efficient'. They are designed to
heat
things and they do that job EXTREMELY well . . . sometimes to the
point of
COMBUSTION.

Absolutely.

You must keep the lamp far enough from the object being heated to
prevent burning of the surface.

Lew

Cold glue joints
 

dpb wrote:

Oh, the thing I was going to add -- for sure take the glue into the
house and keep it in a warm location; don't leave it out to reach the
near-critical temperature to start from.

When I was a floor mechanic, we had a milk crate of cold sensitive
stuff, in the van next to the glue buckets. Every night, from October
to April, we were supposed to bring that the crate and glue tubs inside.

We NEVER remembered. G

We could have bought a garage for the van with the amount of glue we
bought to replace cold damaged material!

I'd suggest storing the cold-sensitive stuff in the house, and going to
get it when you need it, as opposed to remembering to bring the stuff in
when necessary.

Cold glue joints
 

Lew,
I wasn't casting aspersions {or any other kind of bait}. Sometimes that
'heat' is a cumulative effect . . . starts at 'just warm' and goes up while
your attention is elsewhere, or you leave for the night, etc. Not to mention
the accidental & unrealized movement to a closer positioning, etc.

Or . . . maybe I'm just more paranoid then most.

Regards,
Ron Magen
Backyard Boatshop

"Lew Hodgett" wrote ...

"Ron Magen" wrote:

SNIP
They are designed to heat things and they do that job EXTREMELY well . . .
sometimes to the point of COMBUSTION.

Absolutely.

You must keep the lamp far enough from the object being heated to
prevent burning of the surface.

Lew

Cold glue joints
 

"Ron Magen" wrote:


Lew,
I wasn't casting aspersions {or any other kind of bait}. Sometimes
that
'heat' is a cumulative effect . . . starts at 'just warm' and goes
up while
your attention is elsewhere, or you leave for the night, etc. Not to
mention
the accidental & unrealized movement to a closer positioning, etc.

Or . . . maybe I'm just more paranoid then most.

NBD, but when you are dealing with a thermal energy source, a modicum
of caution is to be expected.

But then again, maybe I expect too much.

Lew

Cold glue joints
 

Type III is 47° F and the Type is 55° F

--
Mike
Watch for the bounce.
If ya didn't see it, ya didn't feel it.
If ya see it, it didn't go off.
Old Air Force Munitions Saying
IYAAYAS
"dpb" wrote in message ...
FoggyTown wrote:
Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

As long as you're above the chalk temperature, they will eventually cure
to at least near full strength. I'm sure there's research on whether
there's an effect or not, but I don't have a reference to it.

The critical item is to check the manufacturer's "chalk temperature" for
the particular formulation you're using -- that's the point at which the
glue will not set at all, but simply crystallize.

One of the advantages of TiteBond III is the lower chalkpoint--47F iirc.
Type II is a fair amount higher although I don't recall the actual number
offhand. If you're getting to the point of the material itself
approaching 50F, I'd definitely be going to the Type III on general
principles.

If you can warm the work area somewhat while working and doing the glueup,
then let it cool gradually overnight after done, you can probably get a
reliable bond if it doesn't cool too quickly -- the drying time will still
be within an hour or so.

But, the suggestion of some heat lamps or other localized heat source is a
good one for safety. Hardly anything would be more frustrating than doing
a complex glueup only to find out if didn't hold completely owing to a few
degrees too cool in the shop...

--

Cold glue joints
 

asmurff wrote:

[regarding chalk temperatures]

Type III is 47° F and the Type is 55° F

That's about what I thought, thanks, but didn't remember the Type I/II
number well enough to try to quote it/them...

--

Cold glue joints
 

dpb wrote:
dpb wrote:
FoggyTown wrote:
Are PVA (TiteBond II or III) glue joints which are left to cure in
cool-ish temps (50 degrees F or so) less strong than joints dried at
higher temps - or does it just take longer for the glue to set
strongly? Getting chilly at night now and not really practical to
bring glue-ups inside the house from my unheated shed.

As long as you're above the chalk temperature, they will eventually
cure to at least near full strength. I'm sure there's research on
whether there's an effect or not, but I don't have a reference to it.
....

Oh, the thing I was going to add -- for sure take the glue into the
house and keep it in a warm location; don't leave it out to reach the
near-critical temperature to start from.

--

That's a good point, but I find that
everything should be at the same
temperature. So, the glue should be 55,
as well as the room, the pieces to be
glued, etc.

I too work in an uninsulated shop,
although it's not unheated. As winter
approaches, and -25 temps are not
unheard of, I have to come up with
strategies that will ensure the glue
won't fall apart after I'm finished.
I've experienced that because I didn't
know about the chalk-up temperature.

Last winter, I was making small boxes,
so bringing stuff in wasn't impossible.
Glue-up was the last step before I came
in, and by the time I was ready to do
the gluing, all surfaces were warm
enough to glue.

This winter will be bigger pieces, and
I'm not sure what I'm going to do. Maybe
schedule gluing for the middle of my
shop time, and keep heat on for a couple
of hours before I shut it down. Either
that or face SWMBO in the AM with scowls
and mutterings about how I buggered up
her kitchen (which I built)(which
doesn't matter cause it's hers now)with
clamped up pieces of wood.

--
Tanus

This is not really a sig.

http://users.compzone.ca/george/shop/