Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles.
What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but
with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call
a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new
jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference
is and why one is better than the other.

Thanks,

Jim

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:40:41 -0700, Jim Brown
wrote:

Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles.
What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but
with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call
a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new
jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference
is and why one is better than the other.

Thanks,

Jim

Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the
differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum
current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v
plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits.

Here is a link to a chart of the NEMA configurations for the straight
blade (non-locking) configurations:

http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=69

and for the circular blade (locking) configurations:

http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=70




Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:14:58 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:40:41 -0700, Jim Brown
wrote:

Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles.
What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but
with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call
a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new
jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference
is and why one is better than the other.

Thanks,

Jim

Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the
differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum
current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v
plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits.

"Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using
"for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. For example, (and I
can't speak to the locking series) the 6-15 and 6-20 are keyed
differently, and the 6-15 is for 15 A and the 6-20 is for 20 A.
However, an exception exists in the NEC which permits that in 15 and
20 A circuits (on both 120V and 240V supplies), either receptacle may
be used on a 20A line. You can't, however, use a -20 on a 15 A line.

So, clearly, the 15 A receptacle is "rated" (in tems of its ability to
carry the current) for 20 A, it's just "keyed" for 15 A plugs (a 20 A
plug won't fit into it). However a 20 A receptacle will accept both a
15 A and a 20 A plug.

All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle
on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match
the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"Jim Brown" wrote in message
...
Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles.
What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but
with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call
a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new
jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference
is and why one is better than the other.

Thanks,

Jim

I believe the different plug styles are for different amounts of current.
You should choose the appropriate one for the current of your 220 line.

Mike

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod
wrote:

"Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using
"for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate.
...
All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle
on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match
the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker.

Well, since - if there's only one receptacle on the circuit - the
"keying" of the device must match the current capacity (IOW, maximum
amperage) of the circuit, I'd tend to call that the "rated" capacity
of the receptacle.

But, have it your way, it's not worth arguing over..

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod wrote:


Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the
differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum
current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v
plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits.

"Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using
"for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. For example, (and I
can't speak to the locking series) the 6-15 and 6-20 are keyed
differently, and the 6-15 is for 15 A and the 6-20 is for 20 A.
However, an exception exists in the NEC which permits that in 15 and
20 A circuits (on both 120V and 240V supplies), either receptacle may
be used on a 20A line. You can't, however, use a -20 on a 15 A line.

So, clearly, the 15 A receptacle is "rated" (in tems of its ability to
carry the current) for 20 A, it's just "keyed" for 15 A plugs (a 20 A
plug won't fit into it). However a 20 A receptacle will accept both a
15 A and a 20 A plug.

All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle
on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match
the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker.

Wow.. I would have loved the chance to pick your brain a few months ago... great
info!

Mexican builders don't have a lot of RV experience, so when I specified a "50
amp hookup" they put in some weird kind of plug that a friend said might be from
a dryer or something...
Oh.. before we found out that it wasn't an RV outlet, we went to the States and
bought a "dog bone" to plug into it to convert it to a 30 amp plug for our
trailer..
We didn't realize we had a problem until the dog bone wouldn't plug into the
outlet..
Last month we took a trip to Yuma and took along the dog bone.. went top an RV
place and paid almost $50 for the outlet that fits the plug on the dog bone..
Lots more expensive and time consuming than asking a knowledgeable person a few
questions...


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

The NEMA ones are great! We have put them in place of the old ones we had
as the round ones are twist lock, no worry about someone accidently pulling
out the plug. Besides all my outlets are in the ceiling and not on the
floor or walls. See here for explanation:

http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configu...Configurations

Jon


"Jim Brown" wrote in message
...
Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles.
What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but
with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call
a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new
jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference
is and why one is better than the other.

Thanks,

Jim

I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

"dbomke" wrote in message
m...
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral
preparation so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.



Simply put, YOU DO NOT WANT VENT LESS!!
Dumping the exhaust into the building is definitely a problem, with both
possible oxygen depletion and moisture. In my area you can not even install
vent less heaters, they are against building code. Many of them recommend
leaving a door or window slightly open when using them.
Buy a 50,000~60,000 BTU Reznor UDAP, or a Modine Hot Dawg. And be done with
it!
Now someone will come along and contradict every thing I just wrote!
Good luck!
Greg

"dbomke" wrote in message
m...
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral
preparation so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

IMO, do not get a ventless heater. My parents have one in their basement,
and I personally don't like the way it smells.

todd

"Greg O" wrote:

Simply put, YOU DO NOT WANT VENT LESS!!

AMEN brother, AMEN.

Lew

The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.



Gas is a 'wet" fuel. It comes out of the ground wet and has the
moisture adjusted to be a certain 'wetness" . This makes it easier to
pump and stabilizes the gas under pressure.

Using a ventless in a wood shop will increase the moisture content of
your product. This does not even address the rusty tools or the odor
or the possible monoxide when the heater or gas line messes up.

Pete

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke" wrote:

I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range hood and
I'll never do that again...
IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and exhaust
outside..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke"
wrote:

I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install
in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be
insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have
natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or
two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling
mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less
expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that
because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building
they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be
concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and
fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range
hood and I'll never do that again...
IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and
exhaust outside..

Depends on where and when you are. In a New England winter blowing
all your heat out through the range hood isn't all that comfortable or
cheap. On the other hand, in the summer after the house has heated to
an uncomfortable temperature, sucking in some nice cool night air can
be just the thing.


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:10:21 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod
wrote:

"Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using
"for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate.
...
All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle
on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match
the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker.

Well, since - if there's only one receptacle on the circuit - the
"keying" of the device must match the current capacity (IOW, maximum
amperage) of the circuit, I'd tend to call that the "rated" capacity
of the receptacle.

But, have it your way, it's not worth arguing over..

Well, it's not "tomato, tomahto". "Rated" implies capacity or ability
to withstand. To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like
it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit. That simply isn't true.
So, it is worth arguing over...unless you're wrong.

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:53:51 +0000, LRod
wrote:
...To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like
it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit...

It may sound like that to you, but not to me. A 15 amp fixture
wouldn't "burn up" if it were used on a 100amp circuit. It just
wouldn't be protected by the circuit breaker.

Why can you use a NEMA X-15 on a 20 amp circuit ONLY if there are
multiple outlets? Why won't UL list products with NEMA X-15 plugs if
they draw more than 15 amps in normal operation? Do you think it might
be because the X-15 receptacles aren't intended to carry a continuous
current greater than 15 amps? That sounds like a "rating" to me.

You want to use the word "keyed"? Fine, use it. I'll continue to use
the word "rated" and I suspect that most folks will know what I'm
talking about.

Oh, BTW, is a NEMA X-50 "keyed" for 50 amps or is it "rated" for 50
amps? I don't believe you can use the same argument here as you did
for the code exception case of multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp
circuit.

Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:12:53 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:53:51 +0000, LRod
wrote:
...To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like
it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit...

It may sound like that to you, but not to me. A 15 amp fixture
wouldn't "burn up" if it were used on a 100amp circuit. It just
wouldn't be protected by the circuit breaker.

But it's supposed to be protected if it's mounted in a box. That's the
whole point.

Yes, a 1 amp clock radio won't burn up on a 100 A circuit--I've been
arguing that for years when folks post worrying about running their
3HP saw on a 30 or 40 A circuit. Note, however, that all of that
wiring and equipment is outside of the wall and therefore none of it
is protected by the breaker.

Why can you use a NEMA X-15 on a 20 amp circuit ONLY if there are
multiple outlets? Why won't UL list products with NEMA X-15 plugs if
they draw more than 15 amps in normal operation?

Don't ask me, ask the people who wrote the NEC--they're the ones who
authored the exception(s). Note that those people are not the same
people who run Underwriter's Laboratories, and have different
parameters, goals, and sponsors.

Do you think it might be because the X-15 receptacles aren't intended
to carry a continuous current greater than 15 amps?

Of course not. If that were true, how could you be permitted to use
15A receptacles on a 20A circuit? And you are permitted to do so, by
the NEC,

That sounds like a "rating" to me.

Well, it might very well be, if it were any other current device than
15/20 A devices.

You want to use the word "keyed"? Fine, use it. I'll continue to use
the word "rated" and I suspect that most folks will know what I'm
talking about.

Under a lot of other circumstances we can afford to be less precise in
the nomenclature we choose to use. Electricity isn't one of them. It's
irresponsible to be casual about what one says just because "most
folks will know what [you're] talking about" (and you only *suspect*
that, to boot). Well, most folks don't. That's why they're asking
questions. And this whole discussion is precisely why there are only a
handful (and a small handful at that) of posters on the wreck whose
electrical advice is worth following.

Oh, BTW, is a NEMA X-50 "keyed" for 50 amps or is it "rated" for 50
amps? I don't believe you can use the same argument here as you did
for the code exception case of multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp
circuit.

I don't have technical data to prove it, but since economics doesn't
support building 20 ton components for 1 ton use, it's a fair guess
that the specification for the contacts for a 50 A device is indeed
more like a rating. After all, it's only intended and permitted on 50
A circuits. Would you not agree that no 15/20 A receptacle is built
(that is, capable of handling the current) to operate on a 50 A line?
The contacts wouldn't be able to handle the current. That's what
rating is.

That's the whole point of the argument on using that word in the 15/20
A exception. Clearly a device that is keyed for 15 A components but is
permitted to be installed on 20 A circuits is rated (that is designed
and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service.

If you don't understand the importance of the differences I've pointed
out, there isn't any purpose served by continuing to convey them. And
if you don't, then please don't give electrical advice.


--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month.
If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't
care to correspond with you anyway.

"dbomke" wrote in
m:

I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame"
gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace.

Reminds me of my parents' house in Holland. We/they had several natural
gas fired heaters that sucked in outside air to feed the burners and vented
the exhaust outside through a single coaxial opening totaling some 6"
(guessing). Worked fine, even in brick housing. Isn't there something
like that here in the US?

--
Best regards
Han
email address is invalid

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:54:44 +0000, LRod
wrote:
...
That's the whole point of the argument on using that word in the 15/20
A exception. Clearly a device that is keyed for 15 A components but is
permitted to be installed on 20 A circuits is rated (that is designed
and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service.

Then you "'clearly" would have no qualms about using an X-15 component
as the ONLY outlet on a 20 amp circuit since it is "rated (that is
designed and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service." Yet
that is prohibited by code. Wonder why?

If you don't understand the importance of the differences I've pointed
out, there isn't any purpose served by continuing to convey them. And
if you don't, then please don't give electrical advice.

And do you understand the reason behind allowing multiple instances of
15 amp outlets, but prohibiting a single 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp
circuit?

The difference(s) I see is simply one of semantics and is completely
limited to the single instance of allowing a 20 amp circuit to feed
multiple instances (but not a single instance) of 15 amp outlets.

However, I will admit to some interest in why you seem to feel that
the use of the word "rated" in my response to the OP was
"unfortunate". Do you seriously believe it could lead the OP into some
sort of unsafe practice?




Tom Veatch
Wichita, KS
USA

Water is a major component in the exhaust of a fossel fuel heater. No,
you don't want ventless!!!!! I know guys who have them. In winter
time EVERYTHING RUSTS!!!!
Another poster mentioned through-the-wall venting. If you have a
wall the is open to the outside world, this can be a good way to go.
That way you don't have to worry about a hole in the roof.
I just put one of those into my new woodshop. It is an in-wall
mounted unit so it doesn't take up any floor space. Consider a
counter flow model if you want a warmer floor. This kind sucks the air
in about 5 feet off the floor, heats it and then sends out out at floor
level. My new woodshop http://www.spaco.org/myshop.htm )

is 14 X 40 and they put a 45,000 btu wall furnace in my mistake. It's
way bigger than I need.
My other 2 shops total about 40 X 40 and are heated with a single
35,000 btu wall furnace and that's plenty. This one have been
functioning well since 1992. This one had to be vented through the
roof because its on a wall that has a room on the other side.

I know I've said this before on various newsgroups, but I don't
recommend having a ceiling mounted heater. The older I get, the more
heat I need down by my legs. I have a part time job where I work in a
place that has one of those ceiling furnaces. It can be 90 degrees
where my head is, but 45 deggrees at the floor. I think this becomes
even more of an issue if you are going to keep the shop at a low
temperature unlesee you are working in it.


dbomke wrote:
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:19:13 -0500, spaco
wrote:

I know I've said this before on various newsgroups, but I don't
recommend having a ceiling mounted heater. The older I get, the more
heat I need down by my legs. I have a part time job where I work in a
place that has one of those ceiling furnaces. It can be 90 degrees
where my head is, but 45 deggrees at the floor. I think this becomes
even more of an issue if you are going to keep the shop at a low
temperature unlesee you are working in it.

Which is why underfloor heating wins every time. Insulate to silly
levels under the floor, in the walls and roof. Keep the concrete slab
at around 15-17 deg C (58 - 63 deg F) and your toes keep warm, you
avoid rust on all your tools and you don't sweat like a pig when you
do any manual work.


--

"dbomke" wrote in message
m...
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.
---
We have a ventless gas fireplace in our dining room. it came with the house.
When it gets really nippy out we light it.
It very quickly causes the (vinyl, dual pane) windows to fog in the dining
room, kitchen and living room. It also creates an unplesant smell. Not the
smell of gas I think the smell is from the dust that collects on the fake
logs. It causes my eyes to burn sometimes. This summer we reworked the
fireplace hearth and surround when we put the travertine in the dining room
and I cleaned the fake logs. I hope it helps.

My point is, it's still spooky to think that the oxygen is being depleted
and the carbon monoxide has nowhere to go. We never leave it on for long
usually just to stand next to and thaw out for a little while. I surely
would not go to sleep with it burning.

Someday, I hope to get the darn thing vented somehow. I miss our old
fireplace. It was wood burning and had a great insert in it. it would burn
all night long and keep the house pretty warm.
I'd suggest a good vented heater. You might consider a heat/ac unit so you
are covered all year around.


--
Kate
______
/l ,[____],
l-L -OlllllllO-
()_)-()_)--)_)

The shortest distance between two points,
is a lot more fun in a Jeep!

I have that too Mac... never again.
Kate

"mac davis" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke" wrote:

I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20
in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am
trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas
units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units
would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard
that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they
can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned
about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral
preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good.

Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has.

May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range hood
and
I'll never do that again...
IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and exhaust
outside..


mac

Please remove splinters before emailing