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#1
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220 electrical outlets?
Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220
electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles. What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference is and why one is better than the other. Thanks, Jim |
#2
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220 electrical outlets?
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:40:41 -0700, Jim Brown
wrote: Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220 electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles. What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference is and why one is better than the other. Thanks, Jim Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits. Here is a link to a chart of the NEMA configurations for the straight blade (non-locking) configurations: http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=69 and for the circular blade (locking) configurations: http://www.westernextralite.com/resources.asp?key=70 Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#3
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220 electrical outlets?
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 19:14:58 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 16:40:41 -0700, Jim Brown wrote: Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220 electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles. What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference is and why one is better than the other. Thanks, Jim Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits. "Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using "for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. For example, (and I can't speak to the locking series) the 6-15 and 6-20 are keyed differently, and the 6-15 is for 15 A and the 6-20 is for 20 A. However, an exception exists in the NEC which permits that in 15 and 20 A circuits (on both 120V and 240V supplies), either receptacle may be used on a 20A line. You can't, however, use a -20 on a 15 A line. So, clearly, the 15 A receptacle is "rated" (in tems of its ability to carry the current) for 20 A, it's just "keyed" for 15 A plugs (a 20 A plug won't fit into it). However a 20 A receptacle will accept both a 15 A and a 20 A plug. All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker. -- LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997 email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month. If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't care to correspond with you anyway. |
#4
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220 electrical outlets?
"Jim Brown" wrote in message ... Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220 electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles. What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference is and why one is better than the other. Thanks, Jim I believe the different plug styles are for different amounts of current. You should choose the appropriate one for the current of your 220 line. Mike |
#5
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220 electrical outlets?
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod
wrote: "Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using "for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. ... All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker. Well, since - if there's only one receptacle on the circuit - the "keying" of the device must match the current capacity (IOW, maximum amperage) of the circuit, I'd tend to call that the "rated" capacity of the receptacle. But, have it your way, it's not worth arguing over.. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#6
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220 electrical outlets?
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod wrote:
Not so much that one is "better" than the other, but that the differently configured receptacles are rated for different maximum current. BTW, they are all "NEMA" configurations. NEMA 5-XX are 120v plug/receptacle configurations and NEMA 6-XX are for 240v circuits. "Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using "for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. For example, (and I can't speak to the locking series) the 6-15 and 6-20 are keyed differently, and the 6-15 is for 15 A and the 6-20 is for 20 A. However, an exception exists in the NEC which permits that in 15 and 20 A circuits (on both 120V and 240V supplies), either receptacle may be used on a 20A line. You can't, however, use a -20 on a 15 A line. So, clearly, the 15 A receptacle is "rated" (in tems of its ability to carry the current) for 20 A, it's just "keyed" for 15 A plugs (a 20 A plug won't fit into it). However a 20 A receptacle will accept both a 15 A and a 20 A plug. All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker. Wow.. I would have loved the chance to pick your brain a few months ago... great info! Mexican builders don't have a lot of RV experience, so when I specified a "50 amp hookup" they put in some weird kind of plug that a friend said might be from a dryer or something... Oh.. before we found out that it wasn't an RV outlet, we went to the States and bought a "dog bone" to plug into it to convert it to a 30 amp plug for our trailer.. We didn't realize we had a problem until the dog bone wouldn't plug into the outlet.. Last month we took a trip to Yuma and took along the dog bone.. went top an RV place and paid almost $50 for the outlet that fits the plug on the dog bone.. Lots more expensive and time consuming than asking a knowledgeable person a few questions... mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#7
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220 electrical outlets?
The NEMA ones are great! We have put them in place of the old ones we had
as the round ones are twist lock, no worry about someone accidently pulling out the plug. Besides all my outlets are in the ceiling and not on the floor or walls. See here for explanation: http://www.nooutage.com/nema_configu...Configurations Jon "Jim Brown" wrote in message ... Just finishing my workshop and am doing my finish work. On 220 electrical outlets I notice there are a couple of different styles. What is the difference. There is on that is similar to a 110 sytle but with one of the blades turned 90 degrees. there is also one they call a NEMA 6(?)? All three blades are in a cricular pattern. My new jointer recommends the NEMA but would like to know what the difference is and why one is better than the other. Thanks, Jim |
#8
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Shop Heating
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new
workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. |
#9
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Shop Heating
"dbomke" wrote in message
m... I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. Simply put, YOU DO NOT WANT VENT LESS!! Dumping the exhaust into the building is definitely a problem, with both possible oxygen depletion and moisture. In my area you can not even install vent less heaters, they are against building code. Many of them recommend leaving a door or window slightly open when using them. Buy a 50,000~60,000 BTU Reznor UDAP, or a Modine Hot Dawg. And be done with it! Now someone will come along and contradict every thing I just wrote! Good luck! Greg |
#10
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Shop Heating
"dbomke" wrote in message
m... I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. IMO, do not get a ventless heater. My parents have one in their basement, and I personally don't like the way it smells. todd |
#11
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Shop Heating
"Greg O" wrote: Simply put, YOU DO NOT WANT VENT LESS!! AMEN brother, AMEN. Lew |
#12
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Shop Heating
The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation
so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. Gas is a 'wet" fuel. It comes out of the ground wet and has the moisture adjusted to be a certain 'wetness" . This makes it easier to pump and stabilizes the gas under pressure. Using a ventless in a wood shop will increase the moisture content of your product. This does not even address the rusty tools or the odor or the possible monoxide when the heater or gas line messes up. Pete |
#13
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Shop Heating
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke" wrote:
I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range hood and I'll never do that again... IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and exhaust outside.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
#14
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Shop Heating
mac davis wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke" wrote: I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range hood and I'll never do that again... IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and exhaust outside.. Depends on where and when you are. In a New England winter blowing all your heat out through the range hood isn't all that comfortable or cheap. On the other hand, in the summer after the house has heated to an uncomfortable temperature, sucking in some nice cool night air can be just the thing. mac Please remove splinters before emailing -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#15
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220 electrical outlets?
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:10:21 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 05:12:53 +0000, LRod wrote: "Rated" may be an unfortunate choice of words (especially when using "for maximum current"). "Keyed" is more accurate. ... All of the foregoing is thrown out the window if the only receptacle on the circuit is a simplex receptacle--then the receptacle must match the current capacity dictated by the wire/breaker. Well, since - if there's only one receptacle on the circuit - the "keying" of the device must match the current capacity (IOW, maximum amperage) of the circuit, I'd tend to call that the "rated" capacity of the receptacle. But, have it your way, it's not worth arguing over.. Well, it's not "tomato, tomahto". "Rated" implies capacity or ability to withstand. To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit. That simply isn't true. So, it is worth arguing over...unless you're wrong. -- LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997 email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month. If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't care to correspond with you anyway. |
#16
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220 electrical outlets?
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:53:51 +0000, LRod
wrote: ...To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit... It may sound like that to you, but not to me. A 15 amp fixture wouldn't "burn up" if it were used on a 100amp circuit. It just wouldn't be protected by the circuit breaker. Why can you use a NEMA X-15 on a 20 amp circuit ONLY if there are multiple outlets? Why won't UL list products with NEMA X-15 plugs if they draw more than 15 amps in normal operation? Do you think it might be because the X-15 receptacles aren't intended to carry a continuous current greater than 15 amps? That sounds like a "rating" to me. You want to use the word "keyed"? Fine, use it. I'll continue to use the word "rated" and I suspect that most folks will know what I'm talking about. Oh, BTW, is a NEMA X-50 "keyed" for 50 amps or is it "rated" for 50 amps? I don't believe you can use the same argument here as you did for the code exception case of multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit. Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#17
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220 electrical outlets?
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:12:53 -0500, Tom Veatch wrote:
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:53:51 +0000, LRod wrote: ...To say a fixture is "rated for 15 A" makes it sound like it will burn up when used on a 20A circuit... It may sound like that to you, but not to me. A 15 amp fixture wouldn't "burn up" if it were used on a 100amp circuit. It just wouldn't be protected by the circuit breaker. But it's supposed to be protected if it's mounted in a box. That's the whole point. Yes, a 1 amp clock radio won't burn up on a 100 A circuit--I've been arguing that for years when folks post worrying about running their 3HP saw on a 30 or 40 A circuit. Note, however, that all of that wiring and equipment is outside of the wall and therefore none of it is protected by the breaker. Why can you use a NEMA X-15 on a 20 amp circuit ONLY if there are multiple outlets? Why won't UL list products with NEMA X-15 plugs if they draw more than 15 amps in normal operation? Don't ask me, ask the people who wrote the NEC--they're the ones who authored the exception(s). Note that those people are not the same people who run Underwriter's Laboratories, and have different parameters, goals, and sponsors. Do you think it might be because the X-15 receptacles aren't intended to carry a continuous current greater than 15 amps? Of course not. If that were true, how could you be permitted to use 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit? And you are permitted to do so, by the NEC, That sounds like a "rating" to me. Well, it might very well be, if it were any other current device than 15/20 A devices. You want to use the word "keyed"? Fine, use it. I'll continue to use the word "rated" and I suspect that most folks will know what I'm talking about. Under a lot of other circumstances we can afford to be less precise in the nomenclature we choose to use. Electricity isn't one of them. It's irresponsible to be casual about what one says just because "most folks will know what [you're] talking about" (and you only *suspect* that, to boot). Well, most folks don't. That's why they're asking questions. And this whole discussion is precisely why there are only a handful (and a small handful at that) of posters on the wreck whose electrical advice is worth following. Oh, BTW, is a NEMA X-50 "keyed" for 50 amps or is it "rated" for 50 amps? I don't believe you can use the same argument here as you did for the code exception case of multiple 15 amp outlets on a 20 amp circuit. I don't have technical data to prove it, but since economics doesn't support building 20 ton components for 1 ton use, it's a fair guess that the specification for the contacts for a 50 A device is indeed more like a rating. After all, it's only intended and permitted on 50 A circuits. Would you not agree that no 15/20 A receptacle is built (that is, capable of handling the current) to operate on a 50 A line? The contacts wouldn't be able to handle the current. That's what rating is. That's the whole point of the argument on using that word in the 15/20 A exception. Clearly a device that is keyed for 15 A components but is permitted to be installed on 20 A circuits is rated (that is designed and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service. If you don't understand the importance of the differences I've pointed out, there isn't any purpose served by continuing to convey them. And if you don't, then please don't give electrical advice. -- LRod Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999 http://www.woodbutcher.net Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997 email addy de-spam-ified due to 1,000 spams per month. If you can't figure out how to use it, I probably wouldn't care to correspond with you anyway. |
#18
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Shop Heating
"dbomke" wrote in
m: I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. Reminds me of my parents' house in Holland. We/they had several natural gas fired heaters that sucked in outside air to feed the burners and vented the exhaust outside through a single coaxial opening totaling some 6" (guessing). Worked fine, even in brick housing. Isn't there something like that here in the US? -- Best regards Han email address is invalid |
#19
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220 electrical outlets?
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:54:44 +0000, LRod
wrote: ... That's the whole point of the argument on using that word in the 15/20 A exception. Clearly a device that is keyed for 15 A components but is permitted to be installed on 20 A circuits is rated (that is designed and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service. Then you "'clearly" would have no qualms about using an X-15 component as the ONLY outlet on a 20 amp circuit since it is "rated (that is designed and permitted to carry said current) for 20 A service." Yet that is prohibited by code. Wonder why? If you don't understand the importance of the differences I've pointed out, there isn't any purpose served by continuing to convey them. And if you don't, then please don't give electrical advice. And do you understand the reason behind allowing multiple instances of 15 amp outlets, but prohibiting a single 15 amp outlet, on a 20 amp circuit? The difference(s) I see is simply one of semantics and is completely limited to the single instance of allowing a 20 amp circuit to feed multiple instances (but not a single instance) of 15 amp outlets. However, I will admit to some interest in why you seem to feel that the use of the word "rated" in my response to the OP was "unfortunate". Do you seriously believe it could lead the OP into some sort of unsafe practice? Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA |
#20
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Shop Heating
Water is a major component in the exhaust of a fossel fuel heater. No,
you don't want ventless!!!!! I know guys who have them. In winter time EVERYTHING RUSTS!!!! Another poster mentioned through-the-wall venting. If you have a wall the is open to the outside world, this can be a good way to go. That way you don't have to worry about a hole in the roof. I just put one of those into my new woodshop. It is an in-wall mounted unit so it doesn't take up any floor space. Consider a counter flow model if you want a warmer floor. This kind sucks the air in about 5 feet off the floor, heats it and then sends out out at floor level. My new woodshop http://www.spaco.org/myshop.htm ) is 14 X 40 and they put a 45,000 btu wall furnace in my mistake. It's way bigger than I need. My other 2 shops total about 40 X 40 and are heated with a single 35,000 btu wall furnace and that's plenty. This one have been functioning well since 1992. This one had to be vented through the roof because its on a wall that has a room on the other side. I know I've said this before on various newsgroups, but I don't recommend having a ceiling mounted heater. The older I get, the more heat I need down by my legs. I have a part time job where I work in a place that has one of those ceiling furnaces. It can be 90 degrees where my head is, but 45 deggrees at the floor. I think this becomes even more of an issue if you are going to keep the shop at a low temperature unlesee you are working in it. dbomke wrote: I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. |
#21
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Shop Heating
On Thu, 01 Nov 2007 08:19:13 -0500, spaco wrote: I know I've said this before on various newsgroups, but I don't recommend having a ceiling mounted heater. The older I get, the more heat I need down by my legs. I have a part time job where I work in a place that has one of those ceiling furnaces. It can be 90 degrees where my head is, but 45 deggrees at the floor. I think this becomes even more of an issue if you are going to keep the shop at a low temperature unlesee you are working in it. Which is why underfloor heating wins every time. Insulate to silly levels under the floor, in the walls and roof. Keep the concrete slab at around 15-17 deg C (58 - 63 deg F) and your toes keep warm, you avoid rust on all your tools and you don't sweat like a pig when you do any manual work. -- |
#22
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Shop Heating
"dbomke" wrote in message m... I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. --- We have a ventless gas fireplace in our dining room. it came with the house. When it gets really nippy out we light it. It very quickly causes the (vinyl, dual pane) windows to fog in the dining room, kitchen and living room. It also creates an unplesant smell. Not the smell of gas I think the smell is from the dust that collects on the fake logs. It causes my eyes to burn sometimes. This summer we reworked the fireplace hearth and surround when we put the travertine in the dining room and I cleaned the fake logs. I hope it helps. My point is, it's still spooky to think that the oxygen is being depleted and the carbon monoxide has nowhere to go. We never leave it on for long usually just to stand next to and thaw out for a little while. I surely would not go to sleep with it burning. Someday, I hope to get the darn thing vented somehow. I miss our old fireplace. It was wood burning and had a great insert in it. it would burn all night long and keep the house pretty warm. I'd suggest a good vented heater. You might consider a heat/ac unit so you are covered all year around. -- Kate ______ /l ,[____], l-L -OlllllllO- ()_)-()_)--)_) The shortest distance between two points, is a lot more fun in a Jeep! |
#23
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Shop Heating
I have that too Mac... never again.
Kate "mac davis" wrote in message ... On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:16:49 -0500, "dbomke" wrote: I am getting to the point of deciding what type of heat to install in a new workshop. The shop is 30'x54' with 10' walls and will be insulated to R-20 in the walls and R-38 in the ceiling. I have natural gas available and am trying to decide between using one or two of the ventless "blue flame" gas units or a single ceiling mounted vented gas furnace. The ventless units would be less expensive and have a few other advantages, but I have heard that because they do not vent combustion air outside of the building they can lead to potential moisture problems. Is this an issues to be concerned about? The shop will be used for woodworking and fossil/mineral preparation so a moisture problem would not be good. Thanks for any recommendations or advice any one has. May or may not effect a shop, but our kitchen has a "ductless" range hood and I'll never do that again... IMO, an activated charcoal filter doesn't replace venting heat and exhaust outside.. mac Please remove splinters before emailing |
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