[Bill]

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty particle board,
plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a shortness of breath for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near the wood (as
the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being ventilated throughout the
store). I have recently reluctantly had to facethe fact that I simply don't
belong in those stores. I recently came home from a woodworkers show with
the same reaction. Does anyone else here have this problem?

Admittedly, I have other chemical sensitivities, but I think that there
still may be an "air-quality" issue here. Employees spending hours and
hours in (what I consider) sub-quality air must be compromising their health
in some ways...probably unbeknownst to many of them.

I suppose, If I've made anyone think critically about air quality issues
like this I'll feel like I have contributed something. I suppose this this
issue is far down the list in the world's priorities... Comments welcome of
course.

Bill

[Steve knight]

sounds like you need to spend money on environmentally friendly stuff.
it is only a little more for formaldehyde free products. well worth
the cost.

[Bill]

"Steve knight" wrote in message
...
sounds like you need to spend money on environmentally friendly stuff.
it is only a little more for formaldehyde free products. well worth
the cost.

Yes, I'm already onto that. It just disappoints me that I can't enjoy
shopping at stores like Home Depot and that I have to be concerned about
attending woodworking shows. Fortunatelly there are quite a few alternative
ways to get materials and to learn new things.

-Bill

[Mark & Juanita]

Bill wrote:

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty particle
board, plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a shortness of breath
for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near the wood
(as the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being ventilated throughout
the store).

Would hardly think that the source of the dust is the particle board, but
is dust that has settled onto the particle board from other sources. Would
be very surprised if the dust itself has *any* urea-formaldehyde content at
all. Now, in those stores, if it is new particle board, there is certainly
the possibility that the material is still out-gassing. But that is
entireley different than assigning the blame to dust.



--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

[Frank Drackman]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty particle
board, plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a shortness of breath
for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near the wood
(as the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being ventilated
throughout
the store).

Would hardly think that the source of the dust is the particle board, but
is dust that has settled onto the particle board from other sources.
Would
be very surprised if the dust itself has *any* urea-formaldehyde content
at
all. Now, in those stores, if it is new particle board, there is
certainly
the possibility that the material is still out-gassing. But that is
entireley different than assigning the blame to dust.



I agree.

It seems that there are many possible items that could be contributing to
the problem that it is overly simplistic to assign blame to
"formaldehyde-laden dust."

[Bill]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty particle
board, plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a shortness of breath
for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near the wood
(as the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being ventilated
throughout
the store).

Would hardly think that the source of the dust is the particle board, but
is dust that has settled onto the particle board from other sources.
Would
be very surprised if the dust itself has *any* urea-formaldehyde content
at
all. Now, in those stores, if it is new particle board, there is
certainly
the possibility that the material is still out-gassing. But that is
entireley different than assigning the blame to dust.



I sanded some particle board by hand and got a very bad reaction. I
assume it's the "dust". If I spend some time in Home Depot or Mennards I
end up with some shortness of breath. Ace Hardware, Sears, Kmart, Harbor
Freight---no problems. Knowing this, would you still not blame the dust?

-Bill

[Mark & Juanita]

Bill wrote:


"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty particle
board, plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a shortness of breath
for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near the wood
(as the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being ventilated
throughout
the store).

Would hardly think that the source of the dust is the particle board,
but
is dust that has settled onto the particle board from other sources.
Would
be very surprised if the dust itself has *any* urea-formaldehyde content
at
all. Now, in those stores, if it is new particle board, there is
certainly
the possibility that the material is still out-gassing. But that is
entireley different than assigning the blame to dust.



I sanded some particle board by hand and got a very bad reaction. I
assume it's the "dust". If I spend some time in Home Depot or Mennards I
end up with some shortness of breath. Ace Hardware, Sears, Kmart, Harbor
Freight---no problems. Knowing this, would you still not blame the dust?

-Bill

When you sanded the particle board, you were generating particle board
dust and also exposing layers that may not have fully out-gassed. When you
visit a retail store that sells PB, the dust you see on the PB is very
unlikely to be PB dust. However, the PB in those establishments is
relatively new and probably still out-gassing. If you are truly sensitive
to Urea-formaldehyde, it is most likely the out-gassing from the new
materials that is bothering you.


--
If you're going to be dumb, you better be tough

[Bill]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
When you sanded the particle board, you were generating particle board
dust and also exposing layers that may not have fully out-gassed. When
you
visit a retail store that sells PB, the dust you see on the PB is very
unlikely to be PB dust. However, the PB in those establishments is
relatively new and probably still out-gassing. If you are truly sensitive
to Urea-formaldehyde, it is most likely the out-gassing from the new
materials that is bothering you.

What difference does it make if the source is the out-gassing of
Urea-formaldehyde or dust laced with Urea-formaldehyde? The former sounds
like even more of a problem as it sounds more difficult to get rid of.
Either way, the chemical seems to have been recognized as being not good for
people (particularly people like me). When I described the situtation in the
first place, I was curious as to how many others shared the problem. Even if
one doesn't have an immediate problem with the stuff, I think one is
well-advised to be aware of it's presence and to minimize contact with it.
Breathing it everyday seems like a recipe for bad news.

-Bill

[Mason Pan[_2_]]

You can not absolutely eliminate formaldehyde . Because formaldehyde is
common in both man-made products and the natural products .
Formaldehyde exist in clothing, wood itself, apple, vegetable and so on .
More formaldehyde will be harmful . What we should do is to limit
formaldehyde within a unharmful degree .


--
Mason Pan
Blog: http://www.plywood.cc/

"Steve knight" wrote in message
...
sounds like you need to spend money on environmentally friendly stuff.
it is only a little more for formaldehyde free products. well worth
the cost.

[Malcolm Hoar]

In article , "Bill" wrote:

What difference does it make if the source is the out-gassing of
Urea-formaldehyde or dust laced with Urea-formaldehyde? The former sounds
like even more of a problem as it sounds more difficult to get rid of.
Either way, the chemical seems to have been recognized as being not good for
people (particularly people like me). When I described the situtation in the
first place, I was curious as to how many others shared the problem. Even if
one doesn't have an immediate problem with the stuff, I think one is
well-advised to be aware of it's presence and to minimize contact with it.
Breathing it everyday seems like a recipe for bad news.

Well, in this case, we don't know what caused your reaction. Only
that *something* that seems to be present in the big box stores
provoked a reaction.

Generally speaking, inhaling particulate matter (i.e. dust) is
not good for humans. The very young, the very old, and those
with respiratory problems (e.g. asthma) are especially vulnerable.
Those who spend large amounts of time around large quantities
of dust (e.g. at wood working machines) are well advised to wear
a suitable mask.

There are also chemicals that are harmful to humans.

But certain individuals suffer from allergic reactions to
specific substances; often substances that are basically
benign. Since many thousands of people visit big box stores
every day without reporting the symptoms that you experience,
it seems quite likely that you are allergic to something that
tends to be present in such stores. The fact that you suffer
an allergic reaction does not mean the substance is generally
harmful to humans.

However, it would be prudent for you to minimise your exposure
to the substances by avoiding environments which appear to cause
you problems.

Pollen from trees, grass, and other plants is not generally
considered harmful to humans. But it does cause millions of
people a great deal of discomfort and misery. Many sufferers,
like myself, are forced to minimise their exposure even
when it means forfeiting highly desirable environments
and activities.

For some unfortunate folks, a single peanut could produce
a (fatal) allergic reaction. Peanuts consumed in moderation
are not harmful or toxic to most humans; just a few
individuals. Those individuals need to avoid peanuts!!!

It sounds like you need to avoid the big box stores. Tough
titties. Is that fair? Of course not, and neither is my
hayfever. But it is a fact of life and something you'll
need to come to terms with.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Bill]

"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

What difference does it make if the source is the out-gassing of
Urea-formaldehyde or dust laced with Urea-formaldehyde? The former sounds
like even more of a problem as it sounds more difficult to get rid of.
Either way, the chemical seems to have been recognized as being not good
for
people (particularly people like me). When I described the situtation in
the
first place, I was curious as to how many others shared the problem. Even
if
one doesn't have an immediate problem with the stuff, I think one is
well-advised to be aware of it's presence and to minimize contact with it.
Breathing it everyday seems like a recipe for bad news.

Well, in this case, we don't know what caused your reaction. Only
that *something* that seems to be present in the big box stores
provoked a reaction.

Generally speaking, inhaling particulate matter (i.e. dust) is
not good for humans. The very young, the very old, and those
with respiratory problems (e.g. asthma) are especially vulnerable.
Those who spend large amounts of time around large quantities
of dust (e.g. at wood working machines) are well advised to wear
a suitable mask.

There are also chemicals that are harmful to humans.

But certain individuals suffer from allergic reactions to
specific substances; often substances that are basically
benign. Since many thousands of people visit big box stores
every day without reporting the symptoms that you experience,
it seems quite likely that you are allergic to something that
tends to be present in such stores. The fact that you suffer
an allergic reaction does not mean the substance is generally
harmful to humans.

However, it would be prudent for you to minimise your exposure
to the substances by avoiding environments which appear to cause
you problems.

Pollen from trees, grass, and other plants is not generally
considered harmful to humans. But it does cause millions of
people a great deal of discomfort and misery. Many sufferers,
like myself, are forced to minimise their exposure even
when it means forfeiting highly desirable environments
and activities.

For some unfortunate folks, a single peanut could produce
a (fatal) allergic reaction. Peanuts consumed in moderation
are not harmful or toxic to most humans; just a few
individuals. Those individuals need to avoid peanuts!!!

It sounds like you need to avoid the big box stores. Tough
titties. Is that fair? Of course not, and neither is my
hayfever. But it is a fact of life and something you'll
need to come to terms with.

Malcolm,

I appreciate the elloquence of your argument. I think you would make a good
lawyer. However, as thorough as your argument was, you did not prove that
Urea-formaldehyde is not benign, just as I did not prove, or claim to prove,
that it was. It might surprise you how many similar matters I've had to
come to terms with in the last 5 or 6 years. I have adapted. This one is a
relative "piece of cake" at this point. What is tough is when you don't
know the source of the allergans or even know that the difficulties you are
having are being caused by allergans. I suppose it would be even worse to
develop a terminal disease due to something that you could have avoided,
say, by ignoring warnings on packages.

Peace,
Bill

[Malcolm Hoar]

In article , "Bill" wrote:

I appreciate the elloquence of your argument. I think you would make a good
lawyer. However, as thorough as your argument was, you did not prove that
Urea-formaldehyde is not benign, just as I did not prove, or claim to prove,
that it was. It might surprise you how many similar matters I've had to
come to terms with in the last 5 or 6 years. I have adapted. This one is a
relative "piece of cake" at this point. What is tough is when you don't
know the source of the allergans or even know that the difficulties you are
having are being caused by allergans. I suppose it would be even worse to
develop a terminal disease due to something that you could have avoided,
say, by ignoring warnings on packages.

No, I did not prove that urea-formaldehyde is benign. It probably
isn't with continuous exposure to high doses. But with more normal
exposure, it's likely fairly benign. If it was highly toxic,
carcinogenic or whatever, some clues would likely have emerged
by now.

Yes, these things can be frustrating. My wife suffers from year
round allergies and we still have absolutely no idea what
allergen is triggering them and hence no opportunity to avoid
exposure to same.

In your case, at least you know the allergen is present in big
box stores and have the opportunity to avoid them even if that
is inconvenient.

Over the past few years we have learned about the risks associated
with exposure to substances like lead in paint, asbestos and more.
This is a Good Thing. Having said that, let's keep those risks
in perspective. The ladder or power tool you bought in Home Depot
is far more likely to kill you than the urea-formaldehyde in the
particle board. I don't even want to think about the relative risk
of getting into a motor vehicle and driving to the big box store... ;-)

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[J. Clarke]

Bill wrote:
"Mark & Juanita" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I find that after I visit big stores that have lots of dusty
particle board, plywood and MDF stacked around that I have a
shortness of breath for a while
afterward. This is true to some degree even if I don't go near
the
wood (as the formaldehyde-laden dust is most likely being
ventilated
throughout
the store).

Would hardly think that the source of the dust is the particle
board, but is dust that has settled onto the particle board from
other sources. Would
be very surprised if the dust itself has *any* urea-formaldehyde
content at
all. Now, in those stores, if it is new particle board, there is
certainly
the possibility that the material is still out-gassing. But that
is
entireley different than assigning the blame to dust.



I sanded some particle board by hand and got a very bad reaction.
I
assume it's the "dust". If I spend some time in Home Depot or
Mennards I end up with some shortness of breath. Ace Hardware,
Sears, Kmart, Harbor Freight---no problems. Knowing this, would you
still not blame the dust?

Most of the dust you see in a Home Depot comes from the concrete
floor, not the lumber. So perhaps it's concrete that you're having
trouble with? Sears, K-Mart, and Ace Hardware all put some kind of
flooring on top of the concrete--never been in a Harbor Freight so
don't know what they do.

Rather than guessing, you really should if this is of serious concern
to you see an allergist.

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

[J. Clarke]

Bill wrote:
"Malcolm Hoar" wrote in message
...
In article , "Bill"
wrote:

What difference does it make if the source is the out-gassing of
Urea-formaldehyde or dust laced with Urea-formaldehyde? The
former
sounds like even more of a problem as it sounds more difficult to
get rid of. Either way, the chemical seems to have been recognized
as being not good for
people (particularly people like me). When I described the
situtation in the
first place, I was curious as to how many others shared the
problem. Even if
one doesn't have an immediate problem with the stuff, I think one
is
well-advised to be aware of it's presence and to minimize contact
with it. Breathing it everyday seems like a recipe for bad news.

Well, in this case, we don't know what caused your reaction. Only
that *something* that seems to be present in the big box stores
provoked a reaction.

Generally speaking, inhaling particulate matter (i.e. dust) is
not good for humans. The very young, the very old, and those
with respiratory problems (e.g. asthma) are especially vulnerable.
Those who spend large amounts of time around large quantities
of dust (e.g. at wood working machines) are well advised to wear
a suitable mask.

There are also chemicals that are harmful to humans.

But certain individuals suffer from allergic reactions to
specific substances; often substances that are basically
benign. Since many thousands of people visit big box stores
every day without reporting the symptoms that you experience,
it seems quite likely that you are allergic to something that
tends to be present in such stores. The fact that you suffer
an allergic reaction does not mean the substance is generally
harmful to humans.

However, it would be prudent for you to minimise your exposure
to the substances by avoiding environments which appear to cause
you problems.

Pollen from trees, grass, and other plants is not generally
considered harmful to humans. But it does cause millions of
people a great deal of discomfort and misery. Many sufferers,
like myself, are forced to minimise their exposure even
when it means forfeiting highly desirable environments
and activities.

For some unfortunate folks, a single peanut could produce
a (fatal) allergic reaction. Peanuts consumed in moderation
are not harmful or toxic to most humans; just a few
individuals. Those individuals need to avoid peanuts!!!

It sounds like you need to avoid the big box stores. Tough
titties. Is that fair? Of course not, and neither is my
hayfever. But it is a fact of life and something you'll
need to come to terms with.

Malcolm,

I appreciate the elloquence of your argument. I think you would
make
a good lawyer. However, as thorough as your argument was, you did
not prove that Urea-formaldehyde is not benign, just as I did not
prove, or claim to prove, that it was. It might surprise you how
many similar matters I've had to come to terms with in the last 5 or
6 years. I have adapted. This one is a relative "piece of cake" at
this point. What is tough is when you don't know the source of the
allergans or even know that the difficulties you are having are
being
caused by allergans. I suppose it would be even worse to develop a
terminal disease due to something that you could have avoided, say,
by ignoring warnings on packages.

Now, let us suppose that you get urea-formaldehyde banned and
completely removed from Home Depot. Now suppose you walk into Home
Depot and still have your symptoms. Wouldn't you then feel yourself a
complete ass?

Instead of whingeing about something that may or may not be causing
your problems, why don't you first find out for sure?

--
--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

[Steve knight]

Yes, I'm already onto that. It just disappoints me that I can't enjoy
shopping at stores like Home Depot and that I have to be concerned about
attending woodworking shows. Fortunatelly there are quite a few alternative
ways to get materials and to learn new things.


the borgs are crappy places to shop anyway.

[HeyBub]

Bill wrote:

I sanded some particle board by hand and got a very bad reaction. I
assume it's the "dust". If I spend some time in Home Depot or
Mennards I end up with some shortness of breath. Ace Hardware,
Sears, Kmart, Harbor Freight---no problems. Knowing this, would you
still not blame the dust?

Certainly the dust is suspect. Visit an allergist to find the EXACT cause.
It may be you're allergic to the dried pigeon **** from birds that get
trapped in the large stores. Or maybe it's a nervous reaction to all the
goodies in sight.

You won't know for sure 'til you get tested.

[Bill]

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

I sanded some particle board by hand and got a very bad reaction. I
assume it's the "dust". If I spend some time in Home Depot or
Mennards I end up with some shortness of breath. Ace Hardware,
Sears, Kmart, Harbor Freight---no problems. Knowing this, would you
still not blame the dust?

Certainly the dust is suspect. Visit an allergist to find the EXACT cause.
It may be you're allergic to the dried pigeon **** from birds that get
trapped in the large stores. Or maybe it's a nervous reaction to all the
goodies in sight.

You won't know for sure 'til you get tested.


Actually, I visited an allergist regarding a related matter
(Monsodium-Glutamate (MSG) and some of it's cousins). He suggested there
was little sense in administering a battery of tests to determine what I
basically already know (what to stay away from). That is $360 worth of
medical guidance which I am providing to you for free (without warrantee).
I know well enough, because I can validate it with a number of other
substances, that the problem with the particle board is the presence of
formalehyde. To me, it doesn't matter whether it's the dust or the emitted
gases. I won't be cutting the stuff.

Peace,
Bill

[HeyBub]

Bill wrote:

You won't know for sure 'til you get tested.


Actually, I visited an allergist regarding a related matter
(Monsodium-Glutamate (MSG) and some of it's cousins). He suggested
there was little sense in administering a battery of tests to
determine what I basically already know (what to stay away from).
That is $360 worth of medical guidance which I am providing to you
for free (without warrantee). I know well enough, because I can
validate it with a number of other substances, that the problem with
the particle board is the presence of formalehyde. To me, it
doesn't matter whether it's the dust or the emitted gases. I won't
be cutting the stuff.

Okay. As long as you recognize you're the defective human and don't try to
legislate your malady prevention on normal folk.

[Bill]

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
Bill wrote:

You won't know for sure 'til you get tested.


Actually, I visited an allergist regarding a related matter
(Monsodium-Glutamate (MSG) and some of it's cousins). He suggested
there was little sense in administering a battery of tests to
determine what I basically already know (what to stay away from).
That is $360 worth of medical guidance which I am providing to you
for free (without warrantee). I know well enough, because I can
validate it with a number of other substances, that the problem with
the particle board is the presence of formalehyde. To me, it
doesn't matter whether it's the dust or the emitted gases. I won't
be cutting the stuff.



Okay. As long as you recognize you're the defective human and don't try to
legislate your malady prevention on normal folk.

I don't look at myself as a defective human, but as a more sensitive one.
In fact, from your reply I can see that my sensitivity extends in directions
that haven't even occurred to you. Being "normal" is relative. Ten years
ago, by the definition you are using, I would have been "normal". Will you
not consider yourself normal anymore if you come down with repiratory
problems?