Me again.

I used the router for like 2 days and now it seems it is causing
problems!!!!

I set depth of cut vertically and make a pass (it isn't all that smooth but
I can tell the speed at which it seems to like it) but if I make pass 2 at
new deptch, the thing seems to not want to bite into the wood and the cut
actually moves as if the bit is sliding UP! I ruined several pieces of wood
even though it didn't seem to be my fault (unless I was just using

a) a bit not sharp enough
b) a bit with pitch on it
c) too deep cut (but was same depth as first)
d) combo of all 3?

Do they get dull in 2 days? Could I have dulled it by burning it (and
wood)? Seems like pine would be a breeze for a router.

So, if I clean the bit with some oven cleaner (how to do it?) how can I
ensure it is sharp? I know what sharp is for my razor I use to shave with
but is there an objective measurement? I was cutting pine (white I think...
or yellow?) and my miter saw blew threw it like butter (but then it has
carbide tips).

If it is dull, how to sharpen? Maybe I can find that on a Google search.

Anyway... I am just trying to learn just enough and NO MORE to get at least
a decent router cut that may need to eventually be 1/2" total.

I'll prob just buy actual picture frame molding and avoid the router issue.
But it's nice to have if I need it.


Thanks,
Tim

Tim,

I read that a sharp bit will cut into your fingernail when you gently
slide it across your fingernail. Seems to work. Best bet is to buy
good bits. Depending on the depth of you cut (and whether or not you
have your router mounted on a table), you might want to consider an up
spiral bit to keep the cut clean. Also make sure you bit isn't
slipping in the collet.

Chuck

I don't know if your bit is dull, but a bit that slips is verrrry
dangerous. It is a well known problem with Craftsman routers. If it is
a Craftsman, return it and buy a different brand router - before you
have a bit flying around the room.

Len
----------------------------

Routerman P. Warner wrote:

Some tips and data on what to expect from a router bit at the
http://www.patwarner.com/routerbits.html link.
*******************




Me again.

I used the router for like 2 days and now it seems it is causing
problems!!!!

I set depth of cut vertically and make a pass (it isn't all that smooth but
I can tell the speed at which it seems to like it) but if I make pass 2 at
new deptch, the thing seems to not want to bite into the wood and the cut
actually moves as if the bit is sliding UP! I ruined several pieces of wood
even though it didn't seem to be my fault (unless I was just using

a) a bit not sharp enough
b) a bit with pitch on it
c) too deep cut (but was same depth as first)
d) combo of all 3?

Do they get dull in 2 days? Could I have dulled it by burning it (and
wood)? Seems like pine would be a breeze for a router.

So, if I clean the bit with some oven cleaner (how to do it?) how can I
ensure it is sharp? I know what sharp is for my razor I use to shave with
but is there an objective measurement? I was cutting pine (white I think...
or yellow?) and my miter saw blew threw it like butter (but then it has
carbide tips).

If it is dull, how to sharpen? Maybe I can find that on a Google search.

Anyway... I am just trying to learn just enough and NO MORE to get at least
a decent router cut that may need to eventually be 1/2" total.

I'll prob just buy actual picture frame molding and avoid the router issue.
But it's nice to have if I need it.


Thanks,
Tim

One of your comments seemed to suggest that the router bit is NOT carbide
tipped. If this is the case, throw it away and never buy a non carbide bit
again. A non carbide router bit will indeed dull within very few uses.

An additional bit of advice: Wrap all anti Craftsman tool comments in
toilet paper and flush them down the toilet where they belong. They are
almost always made by tool snobs who are trying to be in the "in crowd" of
smart asses who think that only politically correct brands can be used to do
anything worthwhile.
--
re. email: I have no equal.
"Tim Simmons" wrote in message
...
Me again.

I used the router for like 2 days and now it seems it is causing
problems!!!!

I set depth of cut vertically and make a pass (it isn't all that smooth
but
I can tell the speed at which it seems to like it) but if I make pass 2 at
new deptch, the thing seems to not want to bite into the wood and the cut
actually moves as if the bit is sliding UP! I ruined several pieces of
wood
even though it didn't seem to be my fault (unless I was just using

a) a bit not sharp enough
b) a bit with pitch on it
c) too deep cut (but was same depth as first)
d) combo of all 3?

Do they get dull in 2 days? Could I have dulled it by burning it (and
wood)? Seems like pine would be a breeze for a router.

So, if I clean the bit with some oven cleaner (how to do it?) how can I
ensure it is sharp? I know what sharp is for my razor I use to shave with
but is there an objective measurement? I was cutting pine (white I
think...
or yellow?) and my miter saw blew threw it like butter (but then it has
carbide tips).

If it is dull, how to sharpen? Maybe I can find that on a Google search.

Anyway... I am just trying to learn just enough and NO MORE to get at
least
a decent router cut that may need to eventually be 1/2" total.

I'll prob just buy actual picture frame molding and avoid the router
issue.
But it's nice to have if I need it.


Thanks,
Tim

On Tue, 02 Sep 2003 17:06:27 -0400, Silvan wrote:

Tim Simmons wrote:
Mostly I just use this thing with a carbide round-over bit. Since that's a
profile I can clean up on a belt sander, it's marginally useful.
Otherwise, this machine collects a lot of dust pending a day when I can
replace it with a good one.

I recently picked up a Bosch variable speed router for $215 shipped to my
door off Amazon.com. 2 1/4 HP motor, takes a 1/2" or 1/4" collet, also
comes with a plunge base in addition to the fixed base. Nice purty maple
handles, too.

When you're in the market, take a look at it. I saw the same deal at
Lowe's for basically the same price.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...735541-7752756

The price has started to climb up since I ordered mine, but I've been
pretty happy with it so far.

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Tim Simmons wrote:

I used the router for like 2 days and now it seems it is causing
problems!!!!

actually moves as if the bit is sliding UP! I ruined several pieces of
wood even though it didn't seem to be my fault (unless I was just using

Do they get dull in 2 days? Could I have dulled it by burning it (and
wood)? Seems like pine would be a breeze for a router.

You sound like me.

* Crapsman's finest $99 router
* Crapsman's finest high-speed steel router bits

You're trying to rout something simple, like an ogee on soft pine, and
you're burning it all to hell, right?

First, you're not moving it fast enough. The bit is spinning verrrrry
fast
(50,000 RPM? Maybe only 25,000, but by comparison the highest speed on my
12-speed drill press is only about 3,100 RPM, and the DP is my second
fastest spinning tool), and pine is easy to cut, so it gets cut and then
the bit is still there rubbing against the wood with nothing to do as you
plod along. Friction makes fire, so the wood smokes and burns. You need
to increase the feed rate. Just as fast as you can feed without feeding
too fast, if that makes sense.

Second, throw away the steel router bits. Seriously. They're basically
single-use bits. Buy some carbide bits with ball-bearing pilots, and
you'll see a world of difference.

If you have the same Crapsman router I do, the bit crawling up might not
be
your imagination. Depth on this thing is tricky to set, and doesn't like
to stay where you put it. It creeps unless you get it tight, and I don't
think it's actually possible to get it tight enough to completely
eliminate
creeping without breaking something.

I'm not in the "Crapmsan is garbage, throw it away" camp. I have a few
Crapsman tools that I'm plenty happy with, but my Crapsman router is a
pile
of junk, no two ways about it. The machine is of such low quality that
it's only barely useful for anything at all.

I have mine in a router table. It makes it easier to control the feed
rate,
and to keep the bit more or less where I want it. I can't say that I've
ever routed anything that doesn't have some irregularity from the bit
changing height or the whole shaft flexing and digging into the wood, but
I've done some stuff that looks OK if you don't look at it too closely.

Mostly I just use this thing with a carbide round-over bit. Since that's
a
profile I can clean up on a belt sander, it's marginally useful.
Otherwise, this machine collects a lot of dust pending a day when I can
replace it with a good one.


--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17490 Approximate word count: 524700
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/


Tim S.:

Man, you DO sound like me! Or... I sound like you.

Well, I prob won't buy a dif brand but thanks to all for the
comments/suggestions and I will buy a carbide-tipped bit and try that.

I have it (router) on a small table so I am pushing wood across it and it
is, as you say, marginally workable. Each cut is flawed by either a depth
variance or a horizontal (width) variance of some sort.

Crapsman... (hehehehehehhehehe) I suppose that could also be a term of
endearment (love some, hate some).

Well, I'll keep on trying.


Thanks again, all.


Tim

Ben Siders wrote:

I recently picked up a Bosch variable speed router for $215 shipped to my
door off Amazon.com. 2 1/4 HP motor, takes a 1/2" or 1/4" collet, also
comes with a plunge base in addition to the fixed base. Nice purty maple
handles, too.

When you're in the market, take a look at it. I saw the same deal at
Lowe's for basically the same price.

Thanks for the recommendation. I'm not actually looking yet, but I'll bear
that in mind when the time comes. I need a new table saw first.

Hmmm... Or do I? Maybe I should re-think this, actually. Now that I've
built the second generation crosccut/miter sled, bought a respectable
blade, and trued up the alignment, it's turning out to be an inelegant but
functional saw. Maybe I could get more use out of a good router at this
point, and keep using the saw another year or two.

Damn decisions. Too bad *I'm* Santa Claus, so I know it won't do me any
good to ask him for both.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17502 Approximate word count: 525060
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Tim Simmons wrote:

Man, you DO sound like me! Or... I sound like you.

Your router is red, right? (Unless they changed the color scheme in the
last few years, which is likely.)

I was just thinking back wistfully when I read your stuff, because that's
exactly what I went through. I was using it in my kitchen at the old
apartment, and I set off every smoke detector in the place trying it on a
couple scraps of "whitewood." Whatever "whitewood" is.

Crapsman... (hehehehehehhehehe) I suppose that could also be a term of
endearment (love some, hate some).

Lots of people have gone down the same road, so don't feel bad.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17503 Approximate word count: 525090
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

This "smart ass" had a Craftsman router that did allow the bits to
slip. The first time I assumed I had made a mistake. The second time I
was pretty sure it wasn't me. After the third time I took a close look
at it and brought it back to Sears for a full refund. I have been using
a Porter Cable 690 and 7518 since then. Not one bit has slipped!

My comments about the Craftsman were made in the interest of safety -
not just to slam the Craftsman brand. If you've got a tool that is not
safe to use, get rid of it.

Len

Dirty Bob wrote:

One of your comments seemed to suggest that the router bit is NOT carbide
tipped. If this is the case, throw it away and never buy a non carbide bit
again. A non carbide router bit will indeed dull within very few uses.

An additional bit of advice: Wrap all anti Craftsman tool comments in
toilet paper and flush them down the toilet where they belong. They are
almost always made by tool snobs who are trying to be in the "in crowd" of
smart asses who think that only politically correct brands can be used to do
anything worthwhile.

Dirty Bob Sez:

"An additional bit of advice: Wrap all anti Craftsman tool comments in
toilet paper and flush them down the toilet where they belong. They are
almost always made by tool snobs who are trying to be in the "in crowd"
of smart asses who think that only politically correct brands can be
used to do anything worthwhile."

I like Dirty Bob. He's honest, he's innocent, and he's humble. But most
of all, he agrees with me.

Furthermore; it's a poor mechanic who blames his tools.

I am on large WWII vintage equipment at least 50 hrs. a week, and I mean
this stuff is GOOD. But at home, I use moderate products and only buy a
tool when I NEED ONE. This is less often than you might think, if you
use your head before you whip out the credit card.

For instance, you can get away without a bandsaw for many jobs if you
have an inexpensive sabre saw with a decent blade.Not every time, of
course, but it will do for a lot of stuff. And so on.

On Wed, 03 Sep 2003 10:07:01 -0500, leonard lopez
scribbled

This "smart ass" had a Craftsman router that did allow the bits to
slip. The first time I assumed I had made a mistake. The second time I
was pretty sure it wasn't me. After the third time I took a close look
at it and brought it back to Sears for a full refund. I have been using
a Porter Cable 690 and 7518 since then. Not one bit has slipped!

My comments about the Craftsman were made in the interest of safety -
not just to slam the Craftsman brand. If you've got a tool that is not
safe to use, get rid of it.

Dirty Bob wrote:

An additional bit of advice: Wrap all anti Craftsman tool comments in
toilet paper and flush them down the toilet where they belong. They are
almost always made by tool snobs who are trying to be in the "in crowd" of
smart asses who think that only politically correct brands can be used to do
anything worthwhile.

This "smart ass" had *two* Craftsman routers that did allow the bits
to slip. This is technically know as ARHA (Automatic Random Height
Adjustment). JOAT now has the routers, but he uses loctite to keep the
bits in since he rarely changes them.

Luigi
Replace "no" with "yk" twice
in reply address for real email address

"RM MS" wrote in message
...
I like Tim. He's honest, he's innocent, he's humble.
I wonder if you are trying to cut a slot that is the same diameter is
your router bit. Since pines are so gummy, they easly can get the router
to climb in the slot if it is too tight, espeially when you get deep
enough to put the smooth shank in contact with the cut. You can get away
with that while following a template or whenever only one side is in
contact, but you are asking for trouble when it touches both sides of
the smooth shank


Tim S.:

Some people will assume that people who ask honest questions are actually
trolls who are just baiting in order to lure folk into arguments. I don't
really do that. If I have a point, I make it.

I think you are correct in that my first attempts at routing did involve my
ignorance of routing wider than half the diameter of the bit. I think that
is part of my problem. The other was I only have been using the router for
a few days. The other was I have nerve damage to both thumb, ring and index
finger tips and cannot use them. I have to use palms and middle finger
mostly (heheheheheh).


So, yes, here's my plan:


a) chunk the Crapsman... oh wait, that's what I'd LIKE to do but I'll just
chunk the HSS bit instead and buy a fancy carbide-tipped one. (not sure
which one I need. there are so many. I saw many of the Oldham kind. I
guess a plunge one? 1/4" shank of course.)

b) route in multiple passes and don't go wider/deeper than about 1/8 " a
whack.

c) practise the speed of feed

d) make sure the tightener thingy is very tight

e) make sure the collet nut is tight (but not ready to strip) w/bit 1/16" to
1/8" off the bottom


Thanks again to all of you speedy-replyin' wood-choppin, tool-totin',
craftsmen (OOP!). This seems like a really cool newsgroup except for the
cross-posting Jesus freak.



Tim

"leonard lopez" wrote in message
...
This "smart ass" had a Craftsman router that did allow the bits to
slip. The first time I assumed I had made a mistake. The second time I
was pretty sure it wasn't me. After the third time I took a close look
at it and brought it back to Sears for a full refund. I have been using
a Porter Cable 690 and 7518 since then. Not one bit has slipped!

My comments about the Craftsman were made in the interest of safety -

Tim S.:

And the comments did not go unnoticed or unappreciated by me.

Len:
not just to slam the Craftsman brand. If you've got a tool that is not
safe to use, get rid of it.

Len


Tim S.:

Well, I'd love to get the ones with 1/2" shank. That'd help on the
slipping and vibrating I hear.


Thanks,
Tim


Dirty Bob wrote:

One of your comments seemed to suggest that the router bit is NOT carbide
tipped. If this is the case, throw it away and never buy a non carbide
bit
again. A non carbide router bit will indeed dull within very few uses.

An additional bit of advice: Wrap all anti Craftsman tool comments in
toilet paper and flush them down the toilet where they belong. They are
almost always made by tool snobs who are trying to be in the "in crowd"
of
smart asses who think that only politically correct brands can be used to
do
anything worthwhile.

More importantly - were you cutting the right way? You need to cut
counter-clockwise on outside edges otherwise you're doing what's called
climb-cutting where the router more or less pulls itself along the piece
of wood instead of into the piece of wood.

Also, don't blame HSS bits. They're actually sharper than carbide but
don't stay sharp as long.

"Norm Abrams" wrote in message
...
More importantly - were you cutting the right way? You need to cut
counter-clockwise on outside edges otherwise you're doing what's called
climb-cutting where the router more or less pulls itself along the piece
of wood instead of into the piece of wood.

Also, don't blame HSS bits. They're actually sharper than carbide but
don't stay sharp as long.



Tim S.:

I thought I was going in the dir of feed as labeled on the guides but you
know, that is ANOTHER thing I need to verify and I can check the motor
rotation as it slows to verify regardless of the label.


Thanks!!!


Tim

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Tim Simmons wrote:

Man, you DO sound like me! Or... I sound like you.

Your router is red, right? (Unless they changed the color scheme in the
last few years, which is likely.)

I was just thinking back wistfully when I read your stuff, because that's
exactly what I went through. I was using it in my kitchen at the old
apartment, and I set off every smoke detector in the place trying it on a
couple scraps of "whitewood." Whatever "whitewood" is.

Crapsman... (hehehehehehhehehe) I suppose that could also be a term of
endearment (love some, hate some).

Lots of people have gone down the same road, so don't feel bad.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17503 Approximate word count: 525090
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/


Tim S.:

Well, I am 40 and have been a professional guitarist/musician for about 2
decades (my CD was given 12 out of 10 in Recording Magazine Aug 95) and did
some basic luthier and repair work for a while on electrics and also have a
BS in computer science (teach at a local college) and have been doing some
art too (airbrush, oils, watercolor, with a few local awards! etc.) so I
know that having a quality tool can make the job easier (a bad one can
almost make it impossible) and I see little kids with crappy Cracker Jack
guitars (I tought guitar for a few years) that their parents spent $50 on
and I just hate it for them. You can't really even learn on them due to the
extremely LOW quality (frets are uneven in height causing buzzing and
sometimes spacing is off creating bad intonation problems as you move up and
down the neck, string height way too high and on acoustics it's a pain to
try remedying this and for a $50 axe, it's senseless to try, etc.).

So, I say all of that to say... I know I don't have a pro tool but I know
it'll do what I need once I practice a bit more and get the carbide bit and
be careful about the depth and tightening of the bit.

I'll spend $2,000 on a new synth module but a wood guy I'll never be.


Tim

Tim Simmons wrote:

one can almost make it impossible) and I see little kids with crappy
Cracker Jack guitars (I tought guitar for a few years) that their parents
spent $50 on
and I just hate it for them.

Yeah, we bought our kids one of those last year, for $8. I figured it was
not going to be much good, but for $8 what the hell. It was $8 wasted.
They had the bridge attached with two little #10-32 NUTS. No GLUE, just
two nuts!! This was a company that said its purported mission in life was
to provide inexpensive but *playable* instruments for kids to get started
on. Yeah right!

I tuned it up one good time, saw that it was going to explode, and then I
let it, just for the amusement of seeing it explode. I should have tried
to sue them for a gajillion dollars. Think of the potential for someone to
get hurt when that thing came flying off.

But anyway, that brings about an interesting point, now that you mention it.
I have a Cheapass acoustic that I bought in 1990 for ~$130, when I was a
freshman in college. It was the first expensive thing I ever bought.

I know plywood is bad, I know the cheesy adjustable saddle is bad, I know
the finish is ugly, but at the end of the day I've put 2,000,000 miles on
the damn thing, worn my satin finish to a gloss, and it still does what I
need it to do. It's not like when I play the thing people go "ewwww,
yucky, that sounds like plywood." Mostly because I don't surround myself
with people who know what a $4,000 guitar sounds like, mind you.

And so I come to my point. Tools are like that. I could get a much better
everything, and the Tim Taylor in me wants more power, but at the end of
the day a lot of my less than ideal tools have served me well over the
years.

Our Crapsman router is still more like one of those Cracker Jack $8 guitars,
but the entire spectrum of low end hardware isn't that bad. There's a lot
of stuff out there like my $130 guitar. Not elegant, not the most
sonorous, but solidly functional and reliable to do a respectable but
uninspired job. You don't want something that can't be tuned, with buzzy
frets and a neck that's going to go out in six months, but if you can get
something cheap that will still be playing after the frets are just about
worn out, does it really matter so much if it doesn't have all the features
the pros tell you are important?

It really all depends on your budget, and how high you raise the bar for
yourself I guess.

I'll spend $2,000 on a new synth module but a wood guy I'll never be.

There's just not enough money. I'm into everything. Guitar, flute,
trumpet, model railroading, acrylics, watercolors, gardening, woodworking,
metalworking... What I need to do is figure out a way to become a
professional hobbyist so I can quit wasting all this valuable time working.

All I need to do is win the lottery, then I can have the best of everything.
The best tools, the best instruments, the best art supplies. And I will
still not be particularly good at using any of them.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17529 Approximate word count: 525870
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/

Silvan Sez: " . . .Or do I? Maybe I should re-think this, actually. Now
that I've built the second generation crosccut/miter sled, bought a
respectable blade, and trued up the alignment, it's turning out to be an
inelegant but functional saw."
==================================

See, See, SEE? See what Ole PirateBob's been tellin' ya? Good Job! Stay
the hell out of them damn catalogs. Most of these fools around here do
more Shoppin' than Choppin' Oh, Sylvan, this gives me a warm feeling all
over (GOAT'S face). Inelegant but Functional, now That's what I like.
More people should think the way we do. I am SO proud.

Good point, Mr.Fake Norm.

Tim, push or pull the router AGAISNT the resistance of the motor, in
other words, don't let the router "Pull" you along like a paddlewheel
steamboat.

Mike and Tim are COOL.

Hey, Tim, in 1990 I had a few fingers go dead over a period of a year
or so. I know "first-hand" (HA!) what an inconvenience this is; I could
not hold or tools such as scrapers, screwdrivers, pencils, etc. The
first symptoms seemed to be when using a washcloth to clean my ears, the
little finger collapsed,and things got worse by degrees after that.

The fix was when a hand surgeon ground off a bone process and moved the
ulnar nerve to a new path through the elbow. Took a few months, but the
hand eventually returned to nearly full strength and function, although
my handwriting has never returned to its prior readability. Used to be
pretty decent looking.

RM MS wrote:

inelegant but functional saw."
==================================

See, See, SEE? See what Ole PirateBob's been tellin' ya? Good Job! Stay
the hell out of them damn catalogs. Most of these fools around here do
more Shoppin' than Choppin' Oh, Sylvan, this gives me a warm feeling all
over (GOAT'S face). Inelegant but Functional, now That's what I like.
More people should think the way we do. I am SO proud.

Helps that I'm really, really broke.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
Confirmed post number: 17541 Approximate word count: 526230
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/