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#1
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paintby numbers?
Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a
clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
#2
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 GMT, Bay Area Dave
wrote: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. snip I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for.snip If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Yes. Think "gray." Not everything is Black and White. See below. Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? No, but, (to use your analogy), you do have a tendency to assume that Rembrandt and Picasso were born masters of their art. They weren't. They had to be taught, they studied and copied others' work in order to learn their craft before they developed their own artistic style. Buying and making from plans is a valid way of "learning the craft." The "art of creation" comes after. Very, _very_ few people are born with the talent to do anything at a level of mastery. So as romantic as the notion sounds-- that wood workers here should just build what they want to-- it isn't very practical. The worst you get by winging it is a horrible mess of both materials and wasted time, and the very best you can hope for by just "seeing what happens if I try THIS(!!!)" is something that _might_ pass as.... ....."studio furniture." ; M2c, ymmv, etc... Michael Baglio Chapel Hill |
#3
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:03:10 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski"
wrote: "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message .com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? Plans are like training wheels. OK for a spin or two, but you'll never learn how to ride unless you take them off. I bought a couple of sets of plans to learn from, but changed dimensions, changed shapes, etc, to suit my needs and my taste. I've also take a note pad and tape measure to the store. The projects I'm most proud of are the ones that came from my head. Plans though, can give some ideas on what type of joints or materials to use in certain situations. They are a learning took, just like books and reading this NG. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome Like Ed, I think plans can be training wheels. Or a good starting point for your own creation. The most satisfying thing I've built is one completely dreamt up by me, two pairs of sliding shoji screens for use as a window treatment. |
#4
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans... the first three responsesmake sense!
Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99
So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea, like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article. That's something I can relate to as I have a few books on woodworking, finishing, etc. You don't just pin a plan to the wall and go from step A to Z, and after completing that project, secure another plan and follow it to the letter also. You adapt and decide what elements would work for your project. You borrow ideas. That's useful and instructional. Conceptualizing a project is sometimes a lengthy process for me. The "doing" is usually the easier part of the process (for ME). It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage. Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd, as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors. He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought. I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted. Again, thanks guys, for the insights. dave Bay Area Dave wrote: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
Laz,
What's a shoji screen, if I may ask? dave Lazarus Long wrote: On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:03:10 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote: "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message y.com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? Plans are like training wheels. OK for a spin or two, but you'll never learn how to ride unless you take them off. I bought a couple of sets of plans to learn from, but changed dimensions, changed shapes, etc, to suit my needs and my taste. I've also take a note pad and tape measure to the store. The projects I'm most proud of are the ones that came from my head. Plans though, can give some ideas on what type of joints or materials to use in certain situations. They are a learning took, just like books and reading this NG. Ed http://pages.cthome.net/edhome Like Ed, I think plans can be training wheels. Or a good starting point for your own creation. The most satisfying thing I've built is one completely dreamt up by me, two pairs of sliding shoji screens for use as a window treatment. |
#6
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
People want to get pointed in the right direction, is all.
I love looking at plans. I've not ever built anything by following them (even jigs), but they're fantastics for ideas. Both on how and how not to buiild a thing. For someone who has a few tools, likes making sawdust, and has a SWMBO who takes him at his word when she's looking at a $2K wall unit and he sez "Doesn't look that hard to build"... Whatta you 'spect? Hell, if I didn't know how to DOAGS I'd be asking too! (Even got an ellipsis in there! ggg) djb -- "I'll do the stupid thing first and then you shy people follow..." - Frank Zappa |
#8
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
In article ,
Bay Area Dave writes: This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Dave, Just my limited experiences: I've built four major things from my own designs and two major things from plans. The first thing I ever built was a shop table for my planer. I didn't have much else working, yet, so it's just screwed together and is rickety. I designed it myself, though. Wish I'd known about half-lap joints at the time. Maybe a plan would've helped. The second thing I ever built was a table for my son, of my own design. I didn't get a plan because it seemed to be to be very straightforward. I looked at a number of other children's tables to get the basic dimensions, and designed a big, heavy library table with mortise and tenon jointery - but sized for a two year old. I'm very proud of it. The third thing I ever built was my son's bed. I looked for plans as a basis because there was a lot about making a bed I didn't want to learn by messing up $250 in cherry. I had no idea how to distribute the loads, how big it should be relative to the mattress, or what knock-down jointery system to use. I got _The Bed Book_ and discovered that the first bed in it was exactly what the bed I wanted to build. I changed the design not one iota. I'm also very proud of that bed - while the design is not mine, I did select the wood, mill it and select and implement the finish. If I do say so myself, it's very pretty. The fourth thing I ever built was some wall-mounted cabinets for my shop. I designed them myself. One of them is in the process of falling apart. I didn't do a dado for the backs, I just glued and nailed them on, and that wasn't sufficient for the stresses. I wish I'd spent more time looking at plans. Hopefully I'll be able to salvage the materials. The fifth thing I ever built was an enourmous (6' x 2 1/2') planter for SWMBO. I designed it primarily to skimp on materials while allowing for a lot of wood movement while not actually doing any complicated jointery so that I could move on to a project I really wanted to do. Between you and me I realized after it was about 90% complete that, if you tried to pick it up in the most obvious way while it was full of dirt that it was going to fall apart, so I reinforced it with a bunch of metal L brackets. Yuck. I'm not very proud of it, although I am happy with how it looks. I looked at a lot of plans, and got a lot of ideas about how to design the drainage system for it, but I never really found plans that were exactly what I wanted, so I designed my own. I'm a big fan of the saying, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." This project was good experience. Finally, I'm building a bench along one wall loosely based upon Norm's "Miter Bench and Storage." It's not exactly the same, but it was very convenient, for such a large project, to have someone else provide a materials and cut list. I'm also paying a lot more attention to how to do things like build drawers so I don't make similar errors to what happened with the cabinets. To me, there's two basic reasons to use plans. First of all, I know WAY more about woodworking than any other person I know. Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Rather than teaching myself how to design at the same time I teach myself craftmanship, building from someone else's plans allows me to focus a lot of time on the craft of building and not sweat about design details. The second reason is that the plan is available and is exactly what I need. Most of my woodworking at this time has a utilitarian base - I'm building furniture and fixtures I need. If I see plans that are for almost exactly what I want, it's a definite time-saver to use them as a starting point. Since I'm researching plans anyway to get an idea of what the design elements are to consider, if I find exactly The Plan, why try to recreate it from scratch? Do I hope to some day be able to just sit down and whip out a design for any project? Absolutely. But I guess in some ways this lets me apprentice myself to people like Jeff Miller or Norm Abram. The master designs, and I implement, and in implementing try to understand the design better. -BAT |
#9
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Isn't paint by numbers fun?
If I have to whip out a quick project, like a stand for a shop tool or some built in cabinets to conceal some clutter, I'll find a plan. If I am building something for someone else and want to be special, like a desk for my daughter or a jewelry box for my wife, then I design from the ground up. Montyhp "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
#10
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Plans are the three "Rs" of woodworking. They are the distilled experience
of their creator and generations of woodworkers before. You're using someone's plans even if you don't place a drawing on a board to guide you, the only difference is the paper they're rendered on. The principle is called vicarious experience - education. BTW, if you don't make a plan, at least to note basic dimensions, you're going to have a lot more things to complain about here - like wasting wood. "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
#11
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
There is a concept in the software industry referred to Patterns and
Practices. Or "Best Practices". Point of it is that if you are writing let's say an Accounting package, there are some things that they should all have, and ways in which certain function should work. Also, in the kitchen, we have a thing called a recipe box. In it we have "plans" for different foodstuffs. Granted I may like walnuts in my cake, or you might like cherries, but if you don't get the right amount of baking powder or baking soda in it, it will be a pile of goo. I see plans as recipes. In the same vein there are reasons that most chairs are so high and tables are another height. Granted that if your family is taller than the norm, or shorter than the norm you might modify a set of plans to make it so, but if one were making let's say a bed, and wanted standard mattress and or sheets to fit it, you may wish to start with a set of plans. As for paint by numbers, I have seen some oil's done that way that are beautiful, and the lady that did them thoroughly enjoyed herself. She certainly considered that a hobby. I know a guy that makes wine, but he starts with a mix rather than growing and stepping on his own grapes. he still considers himself a wine maker, and enjoys his hobby... and may I say the wine is delicious. hell, the guy that built my house used a set of plans. Are you suggesting that one using plans is not a hobbyist? Ok, so one must make his own plans. How about using mfg wood products? Should one only use solid wood... From trees that he felled himself, grown from his own seeds, cut with an axe that he forged in a furnace that he built, fired by coal that he mined himself...... You find your enjoyment in the design of things. That is wonderful and you enjoy that. Some people, probably enjoy planing, jointing or dressing wood. My son, for example couldn't be bothered with any of it, he just likes to hammer nails. There are many aspects to this hobby, in the days of the tradesmen (please no flames about how we still have tradesmen, I agree) there were separate jobs. Jointer, Sawyer... etc. I can't imagine making hand cut dovetails 10 - 16 hours a day, but that might really be somebody's thing. I don't mind cutting a couple, either as a matter of discipline or for bragging rights, but if I had to do a bunch give me a template and a router... This is starting to sound a bit flamey... I am not intending it that way. Just ranting. I think I remember a thread a long time back about purists getting to the point of banging on a tree with a rock... You can take any aspect of the art, and say that is all it is. But design, is just that, one aspect. On another note, just because one has a set of plans, doesn't mean he can make it. The skills necessary to make a joint or even make a square cut are still involved, as is finishing (something I absolutely hate by the way.) I have built some things from plans, others modified from basic plans, and still other things from a picture or a discussion. I have fired up turbocad and made my own things too. I have also "winged" it and found a certain way through "I guess I can't get to that screw since I already glued that other joint in the way..." I find no pleasure in that though. -- Absinthe "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
#12
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans... the first three responses make sense!
I rarely use plans (and it often shows), but I have nothing against them and
don't feel that following as set of plans is in the category of using "training wheels" or "painting by the numbers" at all. AAMOF, it often takes more discipline and skill to follow a set of plan than to bumble off on some tangent, taking shortcuts that don't do the project.justice. I often see a furniture project that I want, or am asked to build, where nothing needs to be changed. If good plans are available, it often means I can build the item more efficiently, with less waste, and in less time by using them. That said, you need not be a slave to a set of plans ... some of the better classic furniture plans were drawn up in an age when there were not as many choices with regard to joinery and tools, so departure from, but remaining in the spirit of the design is often desirable. Not to mention, that with hardwood prices continually rising, more self-styled 'designers with no plans' will likely begin to view standing on the shoulders of those who came before them as a wise move. -- www.e-woodshop.net Last update: 8/16/03 "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message Thanks to Ed, Micheal and Jester99 So what you have all said is that looking at plans will spark an idea, like looking up reference material in a book or magazine article. That's something I can relate to as I have a few books on woodworking, finishing, etc. |
#13
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote:
This is a pretty narrow and egocentric view to take. Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I know what I want to make, but I don't know how. Not yet, anyway. And sometimes I just want to make SOMETHING and don't know how. I'm just getting started in woodworking. The first thing I did was build a cheap workbench, and I used my leftover materials to build a low assembly table. I got the workbench plans off the Interweb (har) and I drafted the plans for my assembly table on my own. I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. Like? They even PAY for plans! So? The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. Not everybody has the know-how to draft quality plans that they can follow. I've done 4 years of hand drafting and CAD, am a decent artist, and I still can't just whip up plans to whatever I want. What I can do, though, is measure the area I want to place a piece in and go find plans for a piece that has the look I want and adjust them to fit my space. Why re-invent the wheel? Why go to all the hassle of drawing up plans when somebody else may have drafted exactly what I want? If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. I don't like this analogy. It doesn't take any knowledge, skill, experience, or even any real tools to follow a paint-by-number kit. Suppose you were a painter, however, and masterfully replicated Monet's _Le bateau atelier_. Would you then be willing to say that you've done nothing and your painting isn't a hobby because you just copied somebody else's idea? I doubt it. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Anything you do on a semi-regular basis to pass the time could be considered a hobby, in my opinion. Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? Yes, you do. You're mixing woodworking with design. You don't have to be a masterful woodworking to design a piece. You don't have a design a piece to be a masterful woodworking. I think most people learn how to do both at the same time, but certainly many people, especially newer folks like me, probably lack enough skill/knowledge in either discipline to design what we want to build. It's also possible that people just want plans to get an idea of what kind of joints to use, what type of wood looks good, veneers, what order to do things in, the name of the router bit to use, etc, etc. This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Well, my feelings aren't hurt, but you do come across as a bit self-righteous. Not everybody does it your way, so you are openly questioning whether or not they're even "real" woodworkers? Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? MANY people have this problem. MANY MANY MANY people. You need only witness how many people can easily cruise through a year of two-dimensional math in college and just get crucified when they reach the second year and have to do three-variable calculus. But I think many people just lack the time, training, expertise, or desire to draft their own plans, especially if they think there's a good chance that somebody else had the same idea they had and they don't feel like re-inventing the wheel. Just my input on it the topic, as a complete neophyte. |
#14
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans... I get it!
Why JOAT, have I elicited your longest ever post? Thank you very
much for taking your time to enlighten me as to the value of collecting, reviewing, and possibly even WORKING from plans. I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. You didn't give any examples. ok...TS sled is ONE example...but in light of my "enlightenment" I shouldn't be amazed. As I said at the onset, I just "didn't get it". Now I can see their purpose, which can be different for each person, or different to the same person, depending on their current needs. I was using tunnel vision, thinking that plans were like following instructions on putting together a Heathkit. Now I get it! They even PAY for plans! And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad person? Absolutely not, nor was I implying such. Refer back to my previous answer. And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it. ah, but I DO get it!...Now it's time for me to read the other responses following yours. Happy plans to you! dave Jack-of-all-trades - JOAT wrote: Fri, Aug 22, 2003, 2:42am (EDT+4) (Bay Area Dave) doesn't get it: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. I don't. But, a lot of people ask because they are too idle to look for themselves, or believe their time is "too valuable" to spend looking for plans. And, some are probably not aware of how to look for plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? Well, yes, they do, that's why they're asking for plans for something. I wouldn't call it "copying someone else's ideas" tho. Someone just starting out would usually be better off following someone else's plans. Before your time here, but, as I've said before, some people just prefer using plans. Someone else's plans, that is. Even if they have the experience and knowledge to draft professional quality plans of their own. They just like to work from plans. I would say people like that know what they want to make. I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. You didn't give any examples. They even PAY for plans! And? I occassionally pay for plans too. Does thst make me a bad person? The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. It is for some people, not all. See above. Most of the time I work from no plans, maybe some measurements, other times a rough sketch or two. Once in a blue moon I make up a more complete set of plans for something. I occassionally work with other people' plans, but seldom don't change somehing, when I do. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Well, if you call yourself a painter, have a truck, ladders, and a couple of helpers, then no, I would say that's NOT a hobby. But, if you just paint your house every year, I would say it's a hobby. Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? Yes. Yes. Sounds like you're trying too hard to make it all black and white. Things are seldom just black and white. Usually some black, some white, separated by a big grey (or gray) patch. This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: You hurt my feelings anyway. LMAO I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT Yep, realized that right from the start. , AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! So you say. So what? It boils down to, different strokes for different folks. Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Nope. I can think in three dimensions, sometimes four. And, I still buy plans once in awhile. Plans good. Especially printed plans, so you can hold them and look at them. Some plans are for just dreamin'. I've got some plans stuck away, I pull 'em out once in awhile, just to look at. They're for things I know I will never make, just for dreaming about. Hell, some of them are so damn complicated I probably couldn't actually make them, even if I started tomorrow. So what? Some things are like that, doesn't detract a bit. Those are the things you don't tell people about them, because you don't need somebody telling you, "You'll never make one of those". I have some other plans, that I hope to build one day, a more realistic form of dreams. Sometimes you can tell people about thos, sometimes not. Then there are a few plans, that once I get a some personal things settled, I intend to start on. This will be dreams realized. These plans you can usually tell people about. But, you'll probably still get some idiot telling you, "You can't make one of those". Those are the people you tell, "Up yours". You gotta have dreams, some you know you will never do, some you at least kow are possible, and some you know you can do, and will do. Besides, plans are always fun to look at, for me anyway, any kind of plans. The plans for the Spruce Goose for example, I have no interesting in flying anything more complex than a kite, but enjoyed the Spruce Goose plans. Didn't save a copy, because that isn't my thing. And, I'm one of those people who aren't young, and know everything. I'm old enough to know I don't know everything, never will, don't care, and still trying to learn as much as I can. Amazing the new ideas you can get from someone else's plans, sometime's it just copying an idea, other times it's inspiration for something a little different. Plans are good. Besides finding plans on the web, last time I cheked, I have more woodworking books (not including magazines) the county library. And still pretty much wing it as far as plans go It's all about enjoying it. And, if you still don't get it, the Woodworking Gods have informed me that I am not here to elucidate you, and not to worry about it. JOAT If we're all God's children, what's so special about Jesus? Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT Web Page Update 20 Aug 2003. Some tunes I like. http://community-2.webtv.net/Jakofal...OMETUNESILIKE/ |
#15
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
Brett,
Thanks so much for contributing to this thread and answering in such detail. I may have to start Googling thru JOAT'S many plans before I start building my office desk, which should be my next project. I agree it's silly to reinvent the wheel. dave Brett A. Thomas wrote: In article , Bay Area Dave writes: This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Dave, Just my limited experiences: I've built four major things from my own designs and two major things from plans. The first thing I ever built was a shop table for my planer. I didn't have much else working, yet, so it's just screwed together and is rickety. I designed it myself, though. Wish I'd known about half-lap joints at the time. Maybe a plan would've helped. The second thing I ever built was a table for my son, of my own design. I didn't get a plan because it seemed to be to be very straightforward. I looked at a number of other children's tables to get the basic dimensions, and designed a big, heavy library table with mortise and tenon jointery - but sized for a two year old. I'm very proud of it. The third thing I ever built was my son's bed. I looked for plans as a basis because there was a lot about making a bed I didn't want to learn by messing up $250 in cherry. I had no idea how to distribute the loads, how big it should be relative to the mattress, or what knock-down jointery system to use. I got _The Bed Book_ and discovered that the first bed in it was exactly what the bed I wanted to build. I changed the design not one iota. I'm also very proud of that bed - while the design is not mine, I did select the wood, mill it and select and implement the finish. If I do say so myself, it's very pretty. The fourth thing I ever built was some wall-mounted cabinets for my shop. I designed them myself. One of them is in the process of falling apart. I didn't do a dado for the backs, I just glued and nailed them on, and that wasn't sufficient for the stresses. I wish I'd spent more time looking at plans. Hopefully I'll be able to salvage the materials. The fifth thing I ever built was an enourmous (6' x 2 1/2') planter for SWMBO. I designed it primarily to skimp on materials while allowing for a lot of wood movement while not actually doing any complicated jointery so that I could move on to a project I really wanted to do. Between you and me I realized after it was about 90% complete that, if you tried to pick it up in the most obvious way while it was full of dirt that it was going to fall apart, so I reinforced it with a bunch of metal L brackets. Yuck. I'm not very proud of it, although I am happy with how it looks. I looked at a lot of plans, and got a lot of ideas about how to design the drainage system for it, but I never really found plans that were exactly what I wanted, so I designed my own. I'm a big fan of the saying, "Experience is what you get when you don't get what you want." This project was good experience. Finally, I'm building a bench along one wall loosely based upon Norm's "Miter Bench and Storage." It's not exactly the same, but it was very convenient, for such a large project, to have someone else provide a materials and cut list. I'm also paying a lot more attention to how to do things like build drawers so I don't make similar errors to what happened with the cabinets. To me, there's two basic reasons to use plans. First of all, I know WAY more about woodworking than any other person I know. Unfortunately, that's not saying much. Rather than teaching myself how to design at the same time I teach myself craftmanship, building from someone else's plans allows me to focus a lot of time on the craft of building and not sweat about design details. The second reason is that the plan is available and is exactly what I need. Most of my woodworking at this time has a utilitarian base - I'm building furniture and fixtures I need. If I see plans that are for almost exactly what I want, it's a definite time-saver to use them as a starting point. Since I'm researching plans anyway to get an idea of what the design elements are to consider, if I find exactly The Plan, why try to recreate it from scratch? Do I hope to some day be able to just sit down and whip out a design for any project? Absolutely. But I guess in some ways this lets me apprentice myself to people like Jeff Miller or Norm Abram. The master designs, and I implement, and in implementing try to understand the design better. -BAT |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Dave:
your question... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'll present the other side of the coin. I look at plans in the same way that I look at a recipe in a cookbook...it's a start. I may not know anything about making my own pizza crust, but I can look in a cookbook and find a start. Then, I can add parmesan cheese, garlic, herbs, etc., to the crust--and make it uniquely mine. Same with plans. They give me a starting point with instructions on how to do something I like, and I can then tweak them to make it unique. The other thing--sometimes I learn some new techniques or ideas from plans. Having said all that...now that I'm getting some additional experience under my belt, I'm starting to do less and less from plans. I understand your point, and I'm not disagreeing with your POV, just presenting an alternative. Jim p.s.--I've always wondered where in the bay area you are? I live in Chicago but travel to Alameda about once a month for work. Just curious. (C: |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
George,
I'm more highly educated this morning than yesterday, having read responses in this thread. When I built my workbench and wall cabinets, I first sat at my pc and worked in Excel to calculate dimensions, esp. since there were dados and rabbets involved. Even so, one cabinet came out a bit wider than I had designed, due to one oversight while doing the calcs. But all in all, those 3 projects went pretty well, considering how newbie I am at this. During construction of a drawer for my Unisaw, I forget to dado for the bottom, which I realized just as I glued it together. After much discussion, I ended up Roo gluing and stapling the bottom to the underside edge of the drawer sides, since it is a light duty drawer. Had I had more step by step plans, I would most likely have avoid that snafu. As my projects become more complex, I'm gonna hit a wall where I can't conceptualize the "whole package" any longer. For the time being I've been able to get away with winging it. dave George wrote: Plans are the three "Rs" of woodworking. They are the distilled experience of their creator and generations of woodworkers before. You're using someone's plans even if you don't place a drawing on a board to guide you, the only difference is the paper they're rendered on. The principle is called vicarious experience - education. BTW, if you don't make a plan, at least to note basic dimensions, you're going to have a lot more things to complain about here - like wasting wood. "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypa...
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are
no different from a book or short story. I'm always interested in learning different methods and styles. How else, except for serving as an apprentice under an accomplished cabinetmaker, am I going to see how others practice their craft? I look forward to the plans I get in my Woodsmith subscription just to get to try a new technique. Oh, I'm looking for plans right now. I'm interested in library shelves and built-in china cabinets at the moment. We're going to need about a dozen Adirondack chairs for our front porch in the spring. And I'm still on the quest for the perfect fishing rod rack, something stylish and solid that suits my arts and crafts taste. How else can I see what others have learned unless I look for plans? Jim "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Watch the "step by step" plans. If you forgo good sense to follow them, you
can end up remaking - as I am right now - some of the pieces. Like a fool, I cut them to measure, not to fit. "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message om... During construction of a drawer for my Unisaw, I forget to dado for the bottom, which I realized just as I glued it together. After much discussion, I ended up Roo gluing and stapling the bottom to the underside edge of the drawer sides, since it is a light duty drawer. Had I had more step by step plans, I would most likely have avoid that snafu. As my projects become more complex, I'm gonna hit a wall where I can't conceptualize the "whole package" any longer. For the time being I've been able to get away with winging it. |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
Ben,
funny you began your post with "narrow and egocentric" view. I used somewhat the same description of myself earlier. I hope you realize that I crafted the OP to be provocative. I expecting to be flamed, actually, but thankfully everyone that has responded has done a superb job of detailing that plans are useful in many ways. Yup, I am mixing (in my thinking) woodworking with design, as relates to woodworking as a hobby. That's why I was looking for comments on the practice of using plans. From many of the replies I can now see that a plan can be like a recipe that you spice up. a starting point. well engineered joinery. I'm getting it, man, I'm GETTING it! Yes, I know I sounded self-righteous. I expected that response. I was playing devil's advocate in order to prompt discussion. The tone I took was " I don't get it. why are you guys doing this? doesn't make sense to me. plans aren't needed. why spend money on them?" Now I've gotten a more clear understanding of the value of using a plan, or maybe just culling some ideas from one, to incorporate into our own creation, thereby saving time, using proper joinery, or adding design elements that otherwise would have been lacking, or misproportioned. My biggest liability is a lack of imagination. I'm more of a problem solver; doing is easier for me than envisioning. Once I finally get a "plan" in my head, I rest easy, knowing that building the thing is the easier part. Not that it's always so easy, but I'm talking relatively, here. I procrastinate at the beginning stages, thinking of what should 'it' look like, what materials should 'it' be made of, what size is 'it' gonna be, what finish should I use. I don't want to start a project and then realize well into it that it's not gonna "work". So I agonize over my plan before I cut the first boards. and to answer your question about what I'm amazed people ask for plans for: a sled. I gave my .02 to a recent thread on sleds, and I believe that the OP understood my response that HIS sled needs to be dimensioned for HIS needs, rather than a one size fits all strategy. I wasn't trying to be either rude or unhelpful; quite the contrary, sometimes it's good to push someone to think a little more about the reason for building a shop aid, such as a TS sled, BEFORE they blindly follow someone else's design. When they ask how big it should be, wouldn't you tell them to think about what they plan on cutting with it? I'm not sure it doesn't take some skill to paint by numbers. My attempts at it as I child were atrocious. The final result always looked like hell! dave Ben Siders wrote: On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote: This is a pretty narrow and egocentric view to take. Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I know what I want to make, but I don't know how. Not yet, anyway. And sometimes I just want to make SOMETHING and don't know how. I'm just getting started in woodworking. The first thing I did was build a cheap workbench, and I used my leftover materials to build a low assembly table. I got the workbench plans off the Interweb (har) and I drafted the plans for my assembly table on my own. I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. Like? They even PAY for plans! So? The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. Not everybody has the know-how to draft quality plans that they can follow. I've done 4 years of hand drafting and CAD, am a decent artist, and I still can't just whip up plans to whatever I want. What I can do, though, is measure the area I want to place a piece in and go find plans for a piece that has the look I want and adjust them to fit my space. Why re-invent the wheel? Why go to all the hassle of drawing up plans when somebody else may have drafted exactly what I want? If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. I don't like this analogy. It doesn't take any knowledge, skill, experience, or even any real tools to follow a paint-by-number kit. Suppose you were a painter, however, and masterfully replicated Monet's _Le bateau atelier_. Would you then be willing to say that you've done nothing and your painting isn't a hobby because you just copied somebody else's idea? I doubt it. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Anything you do on a semi-regular basis to pass the time could be considered a hobby, in my opinion. Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? Yes, you do. You're mixing woodworking with design. You don't have to be a masterful woodworking to design a piece. You don't have a design a piece to be a masterful woodworking. I think most people learn how to do both at the same time, but certainly many people, especially newer folks like me, probably lack enough skill/knowledge in either discipline to design what we want to build. It's also possible that people just want plans to get an idea of what kind of joints to use, what type of wood looks good, veneers, what order to do things in, the name of the router bit to use, etc, etc. This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Well, my feelings aren't hurt, but you do come across as a bit self-righteous. Not everybody does it your way, so you are openly questioning whether or not they're even "real" woodworkers? Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? MANY people have this problem. MANY MANY MANY people. You need only witness how many people can easily cruise through a year of two-dimensional math in college and just get crucified when they reach the second year and have to do three-variable calculus. But I think many people just lack the time, training, expertise, or desire to draft their own plans, especially if they think there's a good chance that somebody else had the same idea they had and they don't feel like re-inventing the wheel. Just my input on it the topic, as a complete neophyte. |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
point taken, Jim. I'm a believer! I've seen the light! (seriously) I'm
not being facetious. dave Jeepnstein wrote: I always enjoy reading over a set of plans. From my point of view they are no different from a book or short story. I'm always interested in learning different methods and styles. How else, except for serving as an apprentice under an accomplished cabinetmaker, am I going to see how others practice their craft? I look forward to the plans I get in my Woodsmith subscription just to get to try a new technique. Oh, I'm looking for plans right now. I'm interested in library shelves and built-in china cabinets at the moment. We're going to need about a dozen Adirondack chairs for our front porch in the spring. And I'm still on the quest for the perfect fishing rod rack, something stylish and solid that suits my arts and crafts taste. How else can I see what others have learned unless I look for plans? Jim "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message . com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:07:30 +0000, Bay Area Dave wrote:
Ben, funny you began your post with "narrow and egocentric" view. I used somewhat the same description of myself earlier. I hope you realize that I crafted the OP to be provocative. I expecting to be flamed, actually, but thankfully everyone that has responded has done a superb job of detailing that plans are useful in many ways. I wasn't flaming or attacking, just letting you know how your question came across to me. Yup, I am mixing (in my thinking) woodworking with design, as relates to woodworking as a hobby. That's why I was looking for comments on the practice of using plans. From many of the replies I can now see that a plan can be like a recipe that you spice up. a starting point. well engineered joinery. I'm getting it, man, I'm GETTING it! Are you trying to claim that somebody on a newsgroup learned something by reading it? Impossible! Yes, I know I sounded self-righteous. I expected that response. I was playing devil's advocate in order to prompt discussion. The tone I took was " I don't get it. why are you guys doing this? doesn't make sense to me. plans aren't needed. why spend money on them?" Now I've gotten a more clear understanding of the value of using a plan, or maybe just culling some ideas from one, to incorporate into our own creation, thereby saving time, using proper joinery, or adding design elements that otherwise would have been lacking, or misproportioned. Plus some of us just don't know how to build something without some step-by-step instructions. I followed a plan to build my work bench but using that knowledge, I was able to draft my own plans for an assembly table and put it together without assistance. Plans can be a learning tool. I didn't learn calculus by sitting down deriving the Fundamental Theorom on my own. Isaac Newton did that and somebody else taught me, step by step, how to use it. and to answer your question about what I'm amazed people ask for plans for: a sled. I gave my .02 to a recent thread on sleds, and I believe that the OP understood my response that HIS sled needs to be dimensioned for HIS needs, rather than a one size fits all strategy. I wouldn't know how to build a sled. I'd go get plans, adjust the measurements, but otherwise basically follow them. I wasn't trying to be either rude or unhelpful; quite the contrary, sometimes it's good to push someone to think a little more about the reason for building a shop aid, such as a TS sled, BEFORE they blindly follow someone else's design. When they ask how big it should be, wouldn't you tell them to think about what they plan on cutting with it? Yeah, I agree with you here for sure. When I wanted to build my workbench, I found four or five sets of plans. One just used 2x6's for the surface and I didn't like that. For one, they're never straight and for two, there'll be cracks in them that dust and crap will fall into. I kept shopping around until I found something closer to what I wanted, and even then I changed the height of it to fit my physical size. I'm not sure it doesn't take some skill to paint by numbers. My attempts at it as I child were atrocious. The final result always looked like hell! Yeah, same here, but my point was that the paint-by-numbers analogy isn't very good. You hit on this earlier, but basically it comes to knowing how to build something and knowing how to design something. I could make a design for a bookcase that looks great, build it, put four books on it and have the shelves collapse because I used the wrong kind of joint, wrong kind of wood, or any other number of things that goes wrong. You may have the know-how to avoid those kinds of mistakes, but not everybody does. I almost built my workbench out of yellow pine until somebody told me to use a less brittle wood. I didn't know pine was brittle, I'm just starting out. |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
Sometimes people are looking for a little inspiration. I look at all
sorts of plans and get a few ideas from them, then draw out what works for me. Thank god for libraries, magazines and pictures. Now do you GET IT? Bay Area Dave wrote: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
Yup! I sure do! please read my other responses...
dave Grandpa wrote: Sometimes people are looking for a little inspiration. I look at all sorts of plans and get a few ideas from them, then draw out what works for me. Thank god for libraries, magazines and pictures. Now do you GET IT? Bay Area Dave wrote: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave |
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Isn't relying...thanks to ALL for sharing you insights to thevalue of plans - I appreciate your thoughtful responses
To all who responded:
I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6 feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already thinking of modifications! dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Bay Area Dave wrote in news:qqf1b.211$id.19008623
@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com: Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? I think most people ask for plans because they're not experts (you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise). Folk starting into something new look for guidance on what proportions will work, on what joints are appropriate for a given situation, even for how to make a joint that they haven't previously made. As you gain more experience, first you take existing plans and adapt them, as you learn where you can change dimensions without resulting in ugly proportions or weak construction; with further experience you can design from scratch. To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the renaissance learned by painting over another master's work. They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective, they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because they started with "paint by numbers"? John |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaintby numbers?
Rico,
you are absolutely right on. Everyone has his (or her) special reason for indulging in this hobby. One of my reasons is that it's fun to fabricate things. That's why I especially like working on the router table. The flip side is I get bored if I have to make too many of the same things. I'm not yet into Neandering, but I might dabble in it later on. I don't have any Neander tools yet, unless you count one very lousy Crapsman chisel I picked up over 25 years ago. I use Excel to help with measurements related to dados and rabbets. I don't own a CADD program, but I can imagine how helpful that must be. dave Rico wrote: snip The important thing is the the individual hobbyist is doing what they want and getting satisfaction out of it. Rico -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
John,
No I haven't reached very far up the ladder of expertise. I'm new to building cabinets. I DID do them without using anyone's plans, but that's only after a lot of thought, using Excel to get the dimensions right, and thinking about what I wanted. My workbench and cabinets are simple affairs; had I a complex project, my limited ideas would fail me and I'd need much assistance. I wasn't condemning anyone for painting by numbers. It was the first thing I thought of as an analogy. It's been pointed out by several folks that it was a poor one. I used it in the mistaken belief that following along with a plan offered no creativity or sense of accomplishment. That was my mistaken idea. I get it now. Let me share something: Years ago I built a 25" TV, and o'scope, and a couple of other electronic testers. I didn't feel a whole lot of sense of accomplishment because they were all kits. I followed page after page of detailed instructions in order to build those things. So I related that feeling of lack of accomplishment to the use of plans while woodworking. Instead of mentioning the kit building, I thought of paint by numbers first... Also I recognize that everyone has their own skill set. I was wondering out loud if the need to follow plans was due to a lack of 3D thinking. That's not a character flaw. Now I see that the "need" is not usually a "need"; but a convenience, a tool. As I've mentioned to other posters this morning, I have seen the error in my thinking! and thank you for contributing to this very interesting thread. dave John McCoy wrote: snip (you, I gather, have reached a certain level of expertise). scratch. To take your painting example, many of the old masters of the renaissance learned by painting over another master's work. They weren't born with an inate grasp of color & perspective, they learned it. Would you condemn their later work because they started with "paint by numbers"? John |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com...
Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave Seems to me that most of those folks we call musicians play music written by someone else, even the words they sing are usually by someone else. The result may be termed their "interpretation" of the song, but it is them playing and/or singing someone elses song. They still win the Grammy, though don't they? All of the best cooks I have ever known had recipe books in their kitchens. They may have made some modifications to suit their own or their family's tastes, but they used the recipe books. They still received the accolades when everybody was sitting around with their belts loosened after a good meal. A plan is nothing more than a recipe or a song. It is nice if you are a person who can and enjoys the developement of the plan or the recipe or the song, but the person who makes the item, sings the song or cooks the meal gets the ultimate acknowledgement. Please don't denigrate the skills and artistry of the woodworker who uses a plan any more than you would the grammy winning singer or the best "mom" who ever cooked a meal for you. Dave Hall Who uses plans at least as often as not (if not more so) |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans... the first three responses make sense!
Bay Area Dave wrote in message news:%xg1b.228$
SNIP It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage. Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd, as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors. He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought. I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted. Again, thanks guys, for the insights. dave Bay Area Dave wrote: So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges for your next cabinet? (you can see those usually, you know). How about that glass furnace for making the glass panels on that curio cabinet for the living room? Somehow I have failed by not mining and smelting the copper for the punched copper panels on that pie safe I made for my MIL. I do assume that you grow, cut and mill all of your lumber, don't you???? Man, what an ego. Why do you feel the need to denigrate your neighbor because he enjoyed something a little differently than you might have? I will never be David Marks (I doubt that you will either), but I can enjoy the hobby any way I please, whether I make masterpieces of cabinetry fit for a museum entirly from my own (over active) imagination or just make some little wooden cars for my grandsons. Either way, I should be able to have satisfaction and, indeed, pride, in my efforts without someone like you trying to **** in my wheaties just for your own ego stroking. Dave Hall |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
David,
Your point is taken. However, in the case of the Dixie ****s they should have left Landslide to Fleetwood Mac, and kept their mouths shut about Bush. dave David Hall wrote: Bay Area Dave wrote in message .com... Everyone keeps asking for plans, plans, plans. Doesn't anybody have a clue of what THEY want to make, rather than copying someone else's ideas? I'm constantly amazed at the things people ask for plans for. They even PAY for plans! The fun in building something for me is coming up with a design, and then implementing it. If I said I was as painter, I sure as heck wouldn't get a paint by numbers kit and just paint within the lines. That's NOT a hobby. OR is it?? Am I all wet?? Do I have the wrong idea about what woodworking is about? This little rant is designed NOT to hurt anyone's feelings: I JUST WANT TO START A DIALOG ON THE SUBJECT, AS I JUST DON'T GET IT! Perhaps the reason that people need plans is they can't think in three dimensions?? Is that it? Dave Seems to me that most of those folks we call musicians play music written by someone else, even the words they sing are usually by someone else. The result may be termed their "interpretation" of the song, but it is them playing and/or singing someone elses song. They still win the Grammy, though don't they? All of the best cooks I have ever known had recipe books in their kitchens. They may have made some modifications to suit their own or their family's tastes, but they used the recipe books. They still received the accolades when everybody was sitting around with their belts loosened after a good meal. A plan is nothing more than a recipe or a song. It is nice if you are a person who can and enjoys the developement of the plan or the recipe or the song, but the person who makes the item, sings the song or cooks the meal gets the ultimate acknowledgement. Please don't denigrate the skills and artistry of the woodworker who uses a plan any more than you would the grammy winning singer or the best "mom" who ever cooked a meal for you. Dave Hall Who uses plans at least as often as not (if not more so) |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans... the first three responsesmake sense!
David, David, David! You are getting your panties in a bunch for nothing. I didn't denigrate my neighbor. I was TRYING to relay the fact here (not to his face) that he hadn't really BUILT the object he was showing off, other than the carcass. So the visible quality, materials, effort, and form wasn't his. Do you get MY point? If he had said "I assembled this from parts", I'd have no quarrel with that statement. Otherwise he exhibited misplaced pride. Are you following me now, Dave? dave David Hall wrote: Bay Area Dave wrote in message news:%xg1b.228$ SNIP It IS more fun though, for me to do an entire project "by myself". One of my neighbors tinkers with lots of different projects in his garage. Recently he showed off a corner cabinet he built for a bedroom tv. His obvious pride when he showed me the finished project struck me as odd, as he began telling me how he had to buy the drawer fronts and doors. He built the carcass, but what shows are the components that he bought. I didn't want to burst his bubble but when I left, I spoke with my wife about how he feels like he built the whole thing. I vowed that if I showed someone a cabinet I'd built, that I wouldn't say that I built it myself, if the visible parts were purchased, rather than crafted. Again, thanks guys, for the insights. dave Bay Area Dave wrote: So, I assume that you have that forge all fired up to make the hinges for your next cabinet? (you can see those usually, you know). How about that glass furnace for making the glass panels on that curio cabinet for the living room? Somehow I have failed by not mining and smelting the copper for the punched copper panels on that pie safe I made for my MIL. I do assume that you grow, cut and mill all of your lumber, don't you???? Man, what an ego. Why do you feel the need to denigrate your neighbor because he enjoyed something a little differently than you might have? I will never be David Marks (I doubt that you will either), but I can enjoy the hobby any way I please, whether I make masterpieces of cabinetry fit for a museum entirly from my own (over active) imagination or just make some little wooden cars for my grandsons. Either way, I should be able to have satisfaction and, indeed, pride, in my efforts without someone like you trying to **** in my wheaties just for your own ego stroking. Dave Hall |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
Bay Area Dave wrote:
David, Your point is taken. However, in the case of the Dixie ****s they should have left Landslide to Fleetwood Mac, and kept their mouths shut about Bush. dave Tell you what, they did USA a favour over this side of the pond by making people realise not all of you Yanks think the same way as George W. Some of us already knew that of course, I've been a reference for an American in gaining UK citizenship. Some people seem to need somewhere else to live than your great country for a while... Peter |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
sheesh! sorry I didn't write what I meant. What I meant was "Further
political arguments will have to be taken up my someone ELSE here on the Wreck, as I'm already tired of it...bye!" (this time I mean it. ) dave Bay Area Dave wrote: snip Further arguing politics will have to be taken up by someone on the Wreck. I step aside...bye! |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people wondered
why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one... ;~) I built 2 but bought my last one... |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
I'll second that... It was easy to tell that someone was trying
unsuccessfully to redo a Fleetwood Mac song. And also entertainers are for entertainment, absolutely not a source of usable or credible information. |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting by paint by numbers?
"Peter Ashby" wrote in message Tell you what, they did USA a favour over this side of the pond by making people realise not all of you Yanks think the same way as George W. Some of us already knew that of course, Some of us Yanks would total about 5 or 6. |
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Isn't relying...thanks to ALL for sharing you insights to the value of plans - I appreciate your thoughtful responses
I'll put it on APBW
"Bay Area Dave" wrote in message .com... Heck yeah! and how much for a measured drawing, if I like it? APBW OR APBF? dave Leon wrote: I can post a picture of an Oak and Walnut panel desk that I built 18 years ago if you need inspiration.. "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message news To all who responded: I appreciate your thoughtful responses. Truly. I sort of thought my opinion on the subject was askew; you've all helped to make me less reticent to search for plans for my next project; an oak desk to replace a metal Hon desk in my study. It can't be very big, and I'm over 6 feet, so it'll have to be a bit higher than normal. See, I'm already thinking of modifications! dave |
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Isn't relying of someone else's plans kinda like painting bypaint by numbers?
WOW! It's Beauty-Ful! I want nearly the same thing, except for size I
can only have one bank of drawers. I recognize the AT&T 6300. My first PC in 1985 for $2,500 with a 20 Meg (Not Gig) hard drive. A true POS! Monochrome, no mouse, no windows. but it got my feet wet using a PC and I learned to create R:Base programs, which ended up getting me a job or two after I left the auto repair world. Did you also make that chair? How did you make the top; is it glued up narrow oak? VERRRRY NICE! dave Leon wrote: I posted that desk pic. on apbw "Bay Area Dave" wrote in message .com... true...I never said I had all the answers! dave Leon wrote: With that question, perhaps now you can understand why some people wondered why a woodworker would buy a router cabinet rather than build one... ;~) I built 2 but bought my last one... |