Mortising Question
 

Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've gently
tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg


Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

I hope the picture is of sufficient detail.

Thanks for your time,

David.

Mortising Question
 

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

The purpose of the tenon is to hide that.

Look at the profile of the chisel and bit and you will realize it is not
going to be a flat bottom.

Mortising Question
 

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

The purpose of the tenon is to hide that.

Look at the profile of the chisel and bit and you will realize it is not
going to be a flat bottom.


Thanks Ed for your reply.

The collar I was trying to describe is on the outer edge of the mortise not
the center, it's the thin ring (collar) on the
outer edge that concerns me.

These 1/2" mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles which will not
seat on the bottom of the mortise because of this ring.

I didn't expect to have a flat bottom but I expected that if I drilled a
3/8"- 1/2" mortise I would be able to sink them that far.

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

David.

Mortising Question
 

David wrote:

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

Post higher res pictures of the mortise and the bit setup from the
side.

R

Mortising Question
 

Looks normal.

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

The purpose of the tenon is to hide that.

Look at the profile of the chisel and bit and you will realize it is not
going to be a flat bottom.


Thanks Ed for your reply.

The collar I was trying to describe is on the outer edge of the mortise
not
the center, it's the thin ring (collar) on the
outer edge that concerns me.

These 1/2" mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles which will
not
seat on the bottom of the mortise because of this ring.

I didn't expect to have a flat bottom but I expected that if I drilled a
3/8"- 1/2" mortise I would be able to sink them that far.

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

David.

Mortising Question
 

It looks normal for a one hit mortise. Typically Mortises are
elongated so when you start doing slightly overlapping cuts it cleans
out much of that and it's not that noticable.

You could pretty easily chisle that out. Make an X at the bottom with
the right sized chisel then chisle down the edges with a chisle equal
width to the sides. Light taps and lever it and it will pop out.

On Mar 16, 8:23 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've gently
tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg

Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

I hope the picture is of sufficient detail.

Thanks for your time,

David.

Mortising Question
 

Here are some more pics.

Mortise & Bit Set up

http://i18.tinypic.com/4if7dzn.jpg

Mortise HiRes

http://i16.tinypic.com/2ms1303.jpg

I 'Arrowed' the ring (collar) I'm trying to describe.

I hope this shows the problem better.

Thank you,

David.


"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
David wrote:

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

Post higher res pictures of the mortise and the bit setup from the
side.

R

Mortising Question
 

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
oups.com...
It looks normal for a one hit mortise. Typically Mortises are
elongated so when you start doing slightly overlapping cuts it cleans
out much of that and it's not that noticable.


Thanks for the input.

The center round "knobby" piece is not a concern.

It's the thin ring on the edge of the mortise that stands proud of that.
I posted some more pics and pointed it out with an arrow.

I was hoping it was a chisel and bit adjustment problem as I'm not to keen
on chiseling
100+ of the suckers to get the spindles to fit down in the mortise the
required depth.

Thank you,

David.

Mortising Question
 

A little logical thinking
Looking at the shape of the botom of the bit/chisel combo what do I see?
Mirror image of bottom of hole

Are both bit and chisel are cutting clean?
Yes, guess that means both are sharp.

Which part of the bit/chisel combo is cutting 'ring'?
Its happening around the edge of the bit.

So how can I reduce it?
Reducing the bit clearence will reduce ring

Can I expect to get a perfect square, flat surface fron a circular motion?
Round pegs do not fit round holes.

You have 2 options
Drill mortice a little deeper and allow tenon to rest on ring.
Or
chisel out botom of mortice by hand.

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've
gently tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg


Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

I hope the picture is of sufficient detail.

Thanks for your time,

David.

Mortising Question
 

On Sat, 17 Mar 2007 01:23:52 -0600, "David"
cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:




Looks OK to me.

Mortising Question
 

"David" wrote in message

Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

Why do you think that it needs correction?

Chisel it out if you wish, but it is perfectly fine like it is. You'll find
that a mortise should be a little deeper than the tenon length in any event.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 2/20/07

Mortising Question
 

That is normal. Maybe you can hit it again with a brad point or forstner bit
to get rid of the collar.
Ted

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've
gently tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg


Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

I hope the picture is of sufficient detail.

Thanks for your time,

David.

Mortising Question
 

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message

These 1/2" mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles which will
not seat on the bottom of the mortise because of this ring.

OK, that is a slightly different appliction than the normal morise and tenon
construction. Generally, the hole is deep enough that there is a bit of
clearance and the holding is on the sides of hte joint. In your case, you
either have to clean them out or go a little deeper if the fit is that
precise.



I didn't expect to have a flat bottom but I expected that if I drilled a
3/8"- 1/2" mortise I would be able to sink them that far.

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

The setup is perfectly normal. You'll have to adjust the stroke for your
application if it is that critical. With wood, it is not. The construction
of the bit and chisel won't allow you to get much better than what you have,
but some playing around may reduce, but not eliminate, the collar.

Mortising Question
 

On Mar 17, 9:36 am, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:
"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message

These 1/2" mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles which will
not seat on the bottom of the mortise because of this ring.

OK, that is a slightly different appliction than the normal morise and tenon
construction. Generally, the hole is deep enough that there is a bit of
clearance and the holding is on the sides of hte joint. In your case, you
either have to clean them out or go a little deeper if the fit is that
precise.



I didn't expect to have a flat bottom but I expected that if I drilled a
3/8"- 1/2" mortise I would be able to sink them that far.

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

The setup is perfectly normal. You'll have to adjust the stroke for your
application if it is that critical. With wood, it is not. The construction
of the bit and chisel won't allow you to get much better than what you have,
but some playing around may reduce, but not eliminate, the collar.

Another trick you might consider is routing out the bottom of the
mortise using an undersized pattern cutting bit with a top mounted
bearing or straight flute with a collar. Plunge the bit into the
mortise using the mortise itself as your pattern. This will ensure
that you will not change the X-Y dimensions. You will get a flat
bottom at a precise depth. The only thing to clean will be small
pieces in the corners will are easily lifted with a chisel. I'm not
sure how deep the mortise is but you can probably find a bit with the
appropriate distance between the bottom of the bit and the bearing. Or
use a collar if you have one. Of course, if you don't need square
corners on the mortise you can skip the morticer and go right to the
router.

Paul

Mortising Question
 

Yes, that is normal. Due to the construction of the bit, there is no way it
can remove that.

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
...
Here are some more pics.

Mortise & Bit Set up

http://i18.tinypic.com/4if7dzn.jpg

Mortise HiRes

http://i16.tinypic.com/2ms1303.jpg

I 'Arrowed' the ring (collar) I'm trying to describe.

I hope this shows the problem better.

Thank you,

David.


"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
David wrote:

From the picture I posted, is this what a mortise machine mortise is
supposed to look like, thin ring (collar) and all?

Post higher res pictures of the mortise and the bit setup from the
side.

R

Mortising Question
 

"David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote in message
...
Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've
gently tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg


Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

I hope the picture is of sufficient detail.

Thanks for your time,

David.



That is normal. It also leaves a bit of room at the bottom for the glue to
collect in. Because of the chisel design you will be hard pressed to not
have the shoulder,

Mortising Question
 

"Bigpole" wrote in message
...
That is normal. Maybe you can hit it again with a brad point or forstner
bit
to get rid of the collar.
Ted


The bit would have to be the same width as the distance between opposite
corners to get rid of the shoulder. Then you world have a larger round hole
instead of a square one.

Mortising Question
 

On Mar 16, 11:23 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Hi folks,

I'm using a General mortising machine and I'm wondering if this is what I
should be getting
as a mortise?

I've adjusted the chisel and bit with the .40c method and tried a few
variations but I still end up with that little collar
at the bottom of the mortise.

I've sharpened the chisel using the Lee Valley cone sharpeners, I've gently
tuned up the bit so that it is sharp.

http://i13.tinypic.com/2z7pmab.jpg

Anyone have some suggestions as to what I might try to correct this?

You could make a punch from a 6" piece of square steel and hammer the
bottom of the mortise flat, or you could just leave it as is for glue
space.

Mortising Question
 

"Stoutman" .@. wrote in message
...



Yeah, but then you could just square up the corners with a chisel!
tongue in the vacinity of the cheek


I did not think of that.... ;~)

Mortising Question
 

Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.

David.

Mortising Question
 

"Leon" wrote in message
t...

"Bigpole" wrote in message
...
That is normal. Maybe you can hit it again with a brad point or forstner
bit
to get rid of the collar.
Ted


The bit would have to be the same width as the distance between opposite
corners to get rid of the shoulder. Then you world have a larger round
hole instead of a square one.


Yeah, but then you could just square up the corners with a chisel! tongue
in the vacinity of the cheek

--
Stoutman
www.garagewoodworks.com

Mortising Question
 

One more (maybe crazy) idea.

If you really need a flat bottom, then drill the mortise 3/8" extra
deep. Mill some stock to 1/2" square. Cut 3/8 wafers and pound them
into the mortise with a dao o glue underneath.

On Mar 17, 9:55 am, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.

David.

Mortising Question
 

The flat bottom isn't a concern, the mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles (hollow) and the ring
that is left after
drilling the mortise prevents the spindle from being fully inserted. (This a stair rail project)

The shoe (bottom rail) thickness is only 5/8" so I don't have a lot of room to play with.

The ring that is the problem would also prevent the 1/2" slugs from being pounded to the required depth.

The general consensus here is that the mortises are correct and while time consuming, chiseling out the
offending ring
seems to be the solution.

Thanks for your response,

David.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message
oups.com...
One more (maybe crazy) idea.

If you really need a flat bottom, then drill the mortise 3/8" extra
deep. Mill some stock to 1/2" square. Cut 3/8 wafers and pound them
into the mortise with a dao o glue underneath.

On Mar 17, 9:55 am, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.

David.

Mortising Question
 

On Mar 17, 4:29 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
The flat bottom isn't a concern, the mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles (hollow) and the ring
that is left after
drilling the mortise prevents the spindle from being fully inserted. (This a stair rail project)

The shoe (bottom rail) thickness is only 5/8" so I don't have a lot of room to play with.

The ring that is the problem would also prevent the 1/2" slugs from being pounded to the required depth.

The general consensus here is that the mortises are correct and while time consuming, chiseling out the
offending ring
seems to be the solution.

Thanks for your response,

David.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message

oups.com...

One more (maybe crazy) idea.

If you really need a flat bottom, then drill the mortise 3/8" extra
deep. Mill some stock to 1/2" square. Cut 3/8 wafers and pound them
into the mortise with a dao o glue underneath.

On Mar 17, 9:55 am, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.

It'd be far faster to cut the spindles. Since they're hollow,
presumably aluminum or thinwall steel, it's no big deal.

R

Mortising Question
 

RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:29 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:

The flat bottom isn't a concern, the mortises are to receive 1/2" square metal spindles (hollow) and the ring
that is left after
drilling the mortise prevents the spindle from being fully inserted. (This a stair rail project)

The shoe (bottom rail) thickness is only 5/8" so I don't have a lot of room to play with.

The ring that is the problem would also prevent the 1/2" slugs from being pounded to the required depth.

The general consensus here is that the mortises are correct and while time consuming, chiseling out the
offending ring
seems to be the solution.

Thanks for your response,

David.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message

groups.com...


One more (maybe crazy) idea.

If you really need a flat bottom, then drill the mortise 3/8" extra
deep. Mill some stock to 1/2" square. Cut 3/8 wafers and pound them
into the mortise with a dao o glue underneath.

On Mar 17, 9:55 am, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:

Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.


It'd be far faster to cut the spindles. Since they're hollow,
presumably aluminum or thinwall steel, it's no big deal.

R


I f you absolutely must have the flat bottom then use a thinner piece
and cut a through mortise. When that is done, glue a thin piece across
the bottom to close off the square holes.

Mortising Question
 

I f you absolutely must have the flat bottom then use a thinner piece
and cut a through mortise. When that is done, glue a thin piece across
the bottom to close off the square holes.


That is a good idea.

Getter yet, rip a grove with a dado blade down to the finished deptth of the
mortises and fill the groove with additional stock.

Depending on the design this may be a bit more hidden.

-Steve



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Mortising Question
 

Thanks for those suggestions, but as I previously posted
a flat bottom on the mortise isn't my concern.

David.

Mortising Question
 

He could also cut the mortices with a router and a spiral or morticing bit.
Then square the resulting mortice with a chisel and he'd have a flat bottom
square mortice the depth that he wanted.

--
Charley




"John Siegel" wrote in message
...


RicodJour wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:29 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:

The flat bottom isn't a concern, the mortises are to receive 1/2" square
metal spindles (hollow) and the ring
that is left after
drilling the mortise prevents the spindle from being fully inserted.
(This a stair rail project)

The shoe (bottom rail) thickness is only 5/8" so I don't have a lot of
room to play with.

The ring that is the problem would also prevent the 1/2" slugs from
being pounded to the required depth.

The general consensus here is that the mortises are correct and while
time consuming, chiseling out the
offending ring
seems to be the solution.

Thanks for your response,

David.

"SonomaProducts.com" wrote in message

groups.com...


One more (maybe crazy) idea.

If you really need a flat bottom, then drill the mortise 3/8" extra
deep. Mill some stock to 1/2" square. Cut 3/8 wafers and pound them
into the mortise with a dao o glue underneath.

On Mar 17, 9:55 am, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:

Thank you all for your responses.

I have never used a mortise machine before and didn't know what to
exprect.

I'll be using a sharp chisel to clean the ring out of each mortise.


It'd be far faster to cut the spindles. Since they're hollow,
presumably aluminum or thinwall steel, it's no big deal.

R


I f you absolutely must have the flat bottom then use a thinner piece
and cut a through mortise. When that is done, glue a thin piece across
the bottom to close off the square holes.

Mortising Question
 

David wrote:
Thanks for those suggestions, but as I previously posted
a flat bottom on the mortise isn't my concern.

David.



True But going all the way through should eliminate all artifacts
leaving just a clean, square hole. Any tear out on the exit side is
covered by the bottom piece.

BTW There is another old way to do this but since you have a mortiser I
suggested the above. You can start with pieces as thich as half the
width that you want and cut grooves with a dado blade. Then glue the
two halves together to make your clean square holes.

Mortising Question
 

On Mar 18, 12:39 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Thanks for those suggestions, but as I previously posted
a flat bottom on the mortise isn't my concern.

I'm at a loss as to what you're really trying to accomplish. You're
working on a stair railing. Stairs are inclined, the railing is
inclined, the bottom of the hole will be inclined. If you use a
mortising machine the uphill end of the mortise will be where the
interference occurs. The spindles are metal. Cut the spindles on an
angle. You don't have to worry about having insufficient tenon
length compromising the strength of the railing. The mortise will
hide the cut edges. This will be far faster than trying to work
inside a mortise.

Unless there is some other consideration you haven't mentioned, you
seem to be making this needlessly complex.

R

Mortising Question
 

"John Siegel" wrote in message ...


David wrote:
Thanks for those suggestions, but as I previously posted
a flat bottom on the mortise isn't my concern.

David.

True But going all the way through should eliminate all artifacts leaving just a clean, square hole. Any
tear out on the exit side is covered by the bottom piece.

BTW There is another old way to do this but since you have a mortiser I suggested the above. You can start
with pieces as thich as half the width that you want and cut grooves with a dado blade. Then glue the two
halves together to make your clean square holes.


John, you make some good suggestions.

Originally, I just wanted to know if the mortise was what I should expect it to be.

Having never used a dedicated mortiser before, I was concerned I was missing something in the set up
that was causing the collar(ring) at the outer edges of the mortise.

Your suggestions would definitely avoid the problem I was having, if I had a little more fore-thought
I may have chosen a different method for the mortises.

Thanks for the input and ideas,

David.

Mortising Question
 

"RicodJour" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 18, 12:39 pm, "David" cosmosatnointerbaunspamdotcom wrote:
Thanks for those suggestions, but as I previously posted
a flat bottom on the mortise isn't my concern.

I'm at a loss as to what you're really trying to accomplish. You're
working on a stair railing. Stairs are inclined, the railing is
inclined, the bottom of the hole will be inclined. If you use a
mortising machine the uphill end of the mortise will be where the
interference occurs. The spindles are metal. Cut the spindles on an
angle. You don't have to worry about having insufficient tenon
length compromising the strength of the railing. The mortise will
hide the cut edges. This will be far faster than trying to work
inside a mortise.

Unless there is some other consideration you haven't mentioned, you
seem to be making this needlessly complex.

R


Hi Rico,

Having no experience with a dedicated mortiser all I originally wanted to know was if the mortise
I was getting, was to be expected, if there was something in the bit and chisel setup that
would avoid the collar (ring) that I was getting at the outer edge of the mortise.

http://i16.tinypic.com/2ms1303.jpg

It has been pointed out that this is to be expected when producing a single 1/2" mortise with a 1/2" mortising
chisel.

The shoe stock is 5/8" thick, I was hoping to drill a 3/8" depth mortise and be able to insert the spindle
3/8" into the mortise.
The collar (ring) which is left after drilling stands proud of the bottom of the mortise, preventing the
spindle from being inserted the full 3/8".

It has been suggested to chisel out the collar to achieve my required depth and although time consuming, is a
solution.

I have both flat run and inclined railings on this project.

The inclined pieces of shoe rail and hand rail I will mortise on the angle (51°) and cut the bottom/top of the
spindles to match.

I may opt to only insert the spindles 1/4" into the shoe rail and then insert deeper into the hand rail to
take up the difference.

I apologize for the confusion. I hope this clears it up.

Thanks for the replies,

David.