Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

She may be wanting some interesting windows and I'm not in the mood to
pay some of the highway robbery prices. Now, building windows is no
trick, but here it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I
don't want to lose a bunch of energy through the glass.

Double pane windows are also nothing trick to put together. Shoot,
even the mini-blinds between the panes type that are popular shouldn't
be too difficult.

What I am concerned about is the fogging and water between the panes
from condensation.

I have considered:

a. Assembling them inside a sealed box purged with nitrogen.
(with gloves attached to arm holes)

b. Making the inside pane hinged for periodic opening/drying.

c. Attaching a fitting, tubing that runs to the attic, and tire
valve at the end. Once a year, go to the attic and recharge
the windows with nitrogen or CO2.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

Thoughts?

-zach

I vote for the original "d" (parenthetically unmodified). ;~)
The other options can be made functional, but with all the
other work you'll need to do on the house - why bother?

Besides, factory built windows have a metallic coating
in the inside of one of the glass sheets to reflect infrared
wavelengths. This helps keep the heat in in the winter
and out in the summer. This would be a bitch to try to
duplicate yourself. Also factory windows are usually
filled with argon or other inert gas which gives a bit
better R value than N2 or CO2.

Art


"Zach Tomas" wrote in message
...
[snip]

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

Art

"Jim Mc Namara" wrote in message
. com...
My understanding is that the dead air space between the panes is either
vacuum sealed or charged with an inert gas. Anybody?

Jum

Jewberrywilcum.

"Jim Mc Namara" wrote in message
news
Makes sense - thanks Art.

Jim

"Wood Butcher" wrote in message
news:FbDPa.36743$H17.10746@sccrnsc02...
It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

Art

Aside from many building issues, and depending on where
you live, many areas have VERY strick building codes with
wind loads for windows.

In my area, windows require a wind load of over 100 mph.
It is VERY doubtful you could build anything that meets
or exceeds those specs in a reasonable amount of time and
money.



Zach Tomas wrote:

Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

Snipped parts about how easy it is to build windows.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

you can purchase the window inserts (double/triple glass, sealed, argon
filled) and just install them in your own window frames. call up a custom
window place, not a distributor of installable windows.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Aside from many building issues, and depending on where
you live, many areas have VERY strick building codes with
wind loads for windows.

In my area, windows require a wind load of over 100 mph.
It is VERY doubtful you could build anything that meets
or exceeds those specs in a reasonable amount of time and
money.



Zach Tomas wrote:

Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

Snipped parts about how easy it is to build windows.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:58:16 GMT, Pat Barber
wrote:

Aside from many building issues, and depending on where
you live, many areas have VERY strick building codes with
wind loads for windows.

In my area, windows require a wind load of over 100 mph.
It is VERY doubtful you could build anything that meets
or exceeds those specs in a reasonable amount of time and
money.

Welll, we live in one of the (for now) free parts of the world (rural
Missouri) that still lets you build what you want as long as it
doesn't mutilate random passersby.

I have a complete cabinet shop at my disposal (Ok, I admit to not
having an edgebander) I would rather build than buy most things.

I just don't want water standing between the panes...

-zach

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:12:47 GMT, "Wood Butcher"
wrote:

I vote for the original "d" (parenthetically unmodified). ;~)

Well, now... Thanks for your vote of confidence.

Besides, factory built windows have a metallic coating
in the inside of one of the glass sheets to reflect infrared
wavelengths. This helps keep the heat in in the winter
and out in the summer. This would be a bitch to try to
duplicate yourself.

Yup, I would rather use low-E glass. I don't know if it
is available in raw form. No, I'm not planning on
buiding a vacuum-vapor-metallic-deposit thingamajig.

Also factory windows are usually
filled with argon or other inert gas which gives a bit
better R value than N2 or CO2.

Argon I can get. I didn't think about it having a better R value than
nitrogen. What's up with that? Molecule size or something?

-zach

"Zach Tomas" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:12:47 GMT, "Wood Butcher"
wrote:
[snip]
Argon I can get. I didn't think about it having a better R value than
nitrogen. What's up with that? Molecule size or something?

That's a good question for a physical chemist, but I think you're on
the right track (altho Ar doesn't form molecules). It could also be
that Ar has lower mobility than N2 making convection currents slower.
Or that Ar has a much lower specific heat [520 J/(Kg°K)] than N2 [1042].

Anybody know the real story?

Art

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 18:07:19 GMT, "Jim Mc Namara"
pixelated:

My understanding is that the dead air space between the panes is either
vacuum sealed or charged with an inert gas. Anybody?

When I move din here, I had new dual-glazed windows put in.
I would have done it myself but they wanted just $45 each to
remove the old, install the new, seal, and flash them. They
did it in 3 days andit would have taken me two weeks minimum.
Anywho, the guy said that they are fairly well sealed and
some came with argon inside, but most will leak eventually.
Perhaps windows prices at 4x the cost of mine are better built,
but I doubt that they remain fully sealed for decades. Mine
have a lifetime guarantee from the installer, so I'm hoping his
company outlives my needs. So far they're working fine.

Note to Zach: pay your money and let the PROs do it with a
guarantee. My whole houseful of windows cost just $2,300,
including one 6' slider and a 5x10 living room gaper.
(My sister paid someone $11k in the SF Bay area, tho, but
I know she got taken.)


-
Yea, though I walk through the valley of Minwax, I shall stain no Cherry.
http://diversify.com

About 10 years ago when we built our home I had over 50 Andersen windows
installed. Now at least 45 of these need to be replaced because they
have all leaked. Andersen apparently doesn't know how to seal glass
reliably. The mechanism seems to be that the Argon between the panes
leaks out, probably during periods of low barometric pressure and then
as the pressure rises air, which is predominantly nitrogen, can't flow
back into the void between the panes since nitrogen is a much larger
molecule than the argon atom. This "pumping" over many years has left a
substantial negative pressure. The consequence of this is that on low
barometric pressure days Newton's rings are visible in many of the
windows as the two panes approach one another and are separated by
distances or only a few hundred nanometers. Interestingly the larger
widows that Andersen custom made (some as large as 12 feet on a side)
have not leaked. The problems are all with standard production doors
and casement windows.

Unless you can achieve a perfect seal (it can be done but probably not
at home) I'd urge you to back fill with dry nitrogen. Having a way to
re-purge would not be a bad idea either. My vote would be to carefully
look at window manufacturers and evaluate the quality of their product
(Pella and Marvin come to mind) and buy the best you can find. The
effort to make your own may be excessive for what they can be purchased for.

Phil

Zach Tomas wrote:

Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

She may be wanting some interesting windows and I'm not in the mood to
pay some of the highway robbery prices. Now, building windows is no
trick, but here it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I
don't want to lose a bunch of energy through the glass.

Double pane windows are also nothing trick to put together. Shoot,
even the mini-blinds between the panes type that are popular shouldn't
be too difficult.

What I am concerned about is the fogging and water between the panes
from condensation.

I have considered:

a. Assembling them inside a sealed box purged with nitrogen.
(with gloves attached to arm holes)

b. Making the inside pane hinged for periodic opening/drying.

c. Attaching a fitting, tubing that runs to the attic, and tire
valve at the end. Once a year, go to the attic and recharge
the windows with nitrogen or CO2.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

Thoughts?

-zach

In article ,
Zach Tomas wrote:


Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

She may be wanting some interesting windows and I'm not in the mood to
pay some of the highway robbery prices. Now, building windows is no
trick, but here it is hot in the summer and cold in the winter. I
don't want to lose a bunch of energy through the glass.

Double pane windows are also nothing trick to put together. Shoot,
even the mini-blinds between the panes type that are popular shouldn't
be too difficult.

What I am concerned about is the fogging and water between the panes
from condensation.

I have considered:

a. Assembling them inside a sealed box purged with nitrogen.
(with gloves attached to arm holes)

b. Making the inside pane hinged for periodic opening/drying.

c. Attaching a fitting, tubing that runs to the attic, and tire
valve at the end. Once a year, go to the attic and recharge
the windows with nitrogen or CO2.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

Not more than about 80% so. grin

FORGET item (b) -- _any_ time you open it, all you'll be doing is letting
in 'warm and damp' air.

There are two approaches:
1) *vent* the inter-pane space to the exterior.
2) build the pane assembly *air*tight* and *moisture*proof*, with
appropriately low water-content in the inter-pane space.

The drawbacks to #1 are obvious.

#2 poses _significant_ construction difficulties.

"Thermo-pane"(TM) type windows have two layers of glass (with a vacuum or
an inert gas -- nitrogen or argon -- between them), with the edge _sealed_
with a metallic (usually lead -- similar to stained-glass window construction)
barrier.

Getting the seal air-tight, and that *stays* air-tight for many years, is a
definitely 'non-trivial' job.

Anything that is _not_ absolutely "air tight" means that 'whatever' is in
between the panes can get out, *and* that moisture can _get_in_.

Your (c) _might_ be the basis for "a plan". replace the 'once a year' refill
idea with a continuous low-pressure supply.

In article FbDPa.36743$H17.10746@sccrnsc02,
Wood Butcher wrote:
It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

BZZZT! Vacuum panes exist. 'big' ones. We had 'em for 'sliding glass doors'
opening onto a patio. 4' wide, 6'6" tall. installed in the mid 60's

Art

"Jim Mc Namara" wrote in message
.com...
My understanding is that the dead air space between the panes is either
vacuum sealed or charged with an inert gas. Anybody?

Jum

They may have been advertised as such but simple physics
says it ain't so.

Your door, at 48" x 78", has 3744 sq-in of surface area.
At a very mild pressure differential of 1 psi there would be
almost 2 tons of force trying to push the 2 panes together.
At 14psi differential this force is about 26 tons. No window
I know of will support this kind of force.

Show me the data. Otherwise I'm not a believer.

Art


"Robert Bonomi" bonomi@c-ns. wrote in message
...
In article FbDPa.36743$H17.10746@sccrnsc02,
Wood Butcher wrote:
It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

BZZZT! Vacuum panes exist. 'big' ones. We had 'em for 'sliding glass
doors'
opening onto a patio. 4' wide, 6'6" tall. installed in the mid 60's

Art

Aggreed,
BZZZZZT yourself, there is no way to panels of glass (even small ones)
could support the pressure of even the smallest vacuum. Go re-study your
physics books, and call the manufacturer and ask for your money back as
you were taken in by false advertising.

Mark

Wood Butcher wrote:
They may have been advertised as such but simple physics
says it ain't so.

Your door, at 48" x 78", has 3744 sq-in of surface area.
At a very mild pressure differential of 1 psi there would be
almost 2 tons of force trying to push the 2 panes together.
At 14psi differential this force is about 26 tons. No window
I know of will support this kind of force.

Show me the data. Otherwise I'm not a believer.

Art


"Robert Bonomi" bonomi@c-ns. wrote in message
...

In article FbDPa.36743$H17.10746@sccrnsc02,
Wood Butcher wrote:

It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

BZZZT! Vacuum panes exist. 'big' ones. We had 'em for 'sliding glass

doors'

opening onto a patio. 4' wide, 6'6" tall. installed in the mid 60's

Art

In article , Mark & Shauna wrote:
Aggreed,
BZZZZZT yourself, there is no way to panels of glass (even small ones)
could support the pressure of even the smallest vacuum.

Medium size home aquariums have glass panels supporting pressure differentials
of several PSI.

Commercial aquariums -- e.g. the Chicago Aquarium have glass panels handling
pressure differentials in excess of 10PSI.

Go re-study your
physics books, and call the manufacturer and ask for your money back as
you were taken in by false advertising.

You've got your 'knowledge'.

I've got first-hand experience.

Including a _catastrophic_ failure of one such panel. There was a
substantial pressure differential between 'inside' and 'outside'.
Glass shards went *everywhere*..


THIRTY YEARS after initial installation -- well, 24 for the one panel of 4
that was replaced, these panels weren't even 'cool' to the touch on the
inside, when the outside temperature was 100F _lower_ outside than inside.
(inside temp circa 70F, outside -30F, w/o wind-chill)


Mark

Wood Butcher wrote:
They may have been advertised as such but simple physics
says it ain't so.

Your door, at 48" x 78", has 3744 sq-in of surface area.
At a very mild pressure differential of 1 psi there would be
almost 2 tons of force trying to push the 2 panes together.
At 14psi differential this force is about 26 tons. No window
I know of will support this kind of force.

Show me the data. Otherwise I'm not a believer.

Art


"Robert Bonomi" bonomi@c-ns. wrote in message
...

In article FbDPa.36743$H17.10746@sccrnsc02,
Wood Butcher wrote:

It's the latter. A vacuum would be the ideal insulator but
nobody has managed to engineer a window that is strong
enough to keep the panes from flexing inward and touching
and/or breaking.

BZZZT! Vacuum panes exist. 'big' ones. We had 'em for 'sliding glass

doors'

opening onto a patio. 4' wide, 6'6" tall. installed in the mid 60's

Art

That was going to be my suggestion. My house had new windows installed
before I bought it. They are the energy efficient vinly frame windows,
problem is the vinyl is flexible, all the frames have slightly bowed out of
shape, some so much that the windows fell out of the tracks where they hinge
open for cleaning so I had to unscrew the hinges and move them out a little
and re mount to hold them in the track. The glass its self is still fine,
double oane with an amuminum channel seperating them then they set them
inside the vinyl frame. I have thought many times about cutting the vinyl
off and building wood frames many times.

"Jeff Cochran" wrote in message
...
I have considered:

a. Assembling them inside a sealed box purged with nitrogen.
(with gloves attached to arm holes)

b. Making the inside pane hinged for periodic opening/drying.

c. Attaching a fitting, tubing that runs to the attic, and tire
valve at the end. Once a year, go to the attic and recharge
the windows with nitrogen or CO2.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

Well, D of your options, but why not buy the double panes in standard
sizes and work the woodwork and joinery around them? Or work with
single pane glass and storm sashes? There's not a real DIY option for
creating double pane glazing.

Jeff

BZZZZZT yourself, there is no way to panels of glass (even small ones)
could support the pressure of even the smallest vacuum.

Medium size home aquariums have glass panels supporting pressure differentials
of several PSI.

Commercial aquariums -- e.g. the Chicago Aquarium have glass panels handling
pressure differentials in excess of 10PSI.

Two issues. One is that the glass in commercial aquariums is quite
thick, thicker than would be practical, or cost effective, in building
a window. Second is that glass in an aquarium is a far cry from glass
resisting a vacuum. In an aquarium, there is pressure on both sides,
and the glass has to withstand the differential. In a vacuum, there's
no pressure on one side.

The real proof it doesn't work is that no manufacturer makes a window
with a vacuum between panes. You can bet they'd save the cost of the
nitrogen or argon if it were economically possible.

Jeff

Robert Bonomi wrote:
In article , Mark & Shauna wrote:

You've got your 'knowledge'.

I've got first-hand experience.

Including a _catastrophic_ failure of one such panel. There was a
substantial pressure differential between 'inside' and 'outside'.
Glass shards went *everywhere*..


First of all, fish tanks have very thick glass. We had a 125 gallon
which had glass almost 1/2" thick. Additionally the pressures in home
fish tanks are trivial compared to those which would be exerted on that
of a fish tank. Did you read the other post which did the math showing
you that you would need a piece of glass which could support 26 tons? So
you are telling us the glass in your sliding glass doors could be laid
flat and support 52,000 pounds without bending/breaking.
You now bring up aquarium glass in commercial applications. In case you
didnt see it while you were there, most aquariums have a sample of the
glass they use and it is of no compare to anything relavent to this
thread. It has to not only be able to withstand the weight of the water
but a potential strike from a large occupant.
The cool inside is often the case with good double pane panels. The
"catastrophic failure" you wittnessed was because all glass which comes
with in a given distance of the floor of structure, and door glass, has
to be saftey glass, usually tempered. This means that in the cooling
process of manufacturing the glass they tension the outer skin of the
glass. What this does is put the glass itself under enourmous tension.
This tension is there so that when the panel is bent to the point of
breaking the tension causes it to shatter to millions of tiny pieces
rather than creating shards. Its a very wild process to watch for sure
and almost seems like the glass "explodes". Very loud bang, etc. It is
not an explosion, its the way the glass is designed to fail for your
saftey. It has absolutely nothing to do with the contents, or lack there
of, inside the panel.
Again, you could simply research this with any window manufacturer, or
choose to do the physics your self (most has already been done for you)
and find out that the vacuum issue is mute.


Ciao... Mark

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 19:34:22 GMT, bonomi@c-ns. (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Cochran wrote:
BZZZZZT yourself, there is no way to panels of glass (even small ones)
could support the pressure of even the smallest vacuum.

Medium size home aquariums have glass panels supporting pressure differentials
of several PSI.

Commercial aquariums -- e.g. the Chicago Aquarium have glass panels handling
pressure differentials in excess of 10PSI.

Two issues. One is that the glass in commercial aquariums is quite
thick, thicker than would be practical, or cost effective, in building
a window. Second is that glass in an aquarium is a far cry from glass
resisting a vacuum. In an aquarium, there is pressure on both sides,
and the glass has to withstand the differential. In a vacuum, there's
no pressure on one side.

Just _what_ is the difference between 30 PSI on one side, and 15 PSI on
the other, vs 15 PSI on one side, and 0 PSI on the other?

Obviously never been in a lab and created a vacuum with a flat
panel...

Pressure differential isn't simple x-y math. And the closer you get
to a true vacuum the less predictable the differential forces actually
are. To withstand pressure differential, and 15 PSI is actually quite
a strong differential for a flat glass panel of window pane thickness,
requires a structural design which can distribute the force throughout
the material. Hence the fact that most vacuum containers are rounded
or globes.

But this isn't a physics forum, and I'll never convince you here.

Jeff

Finally, someone makes sense. Good call, Charlie.

That's how I replace the insulated non-operable windows in my house. I order
a new insulated panel, pop the stops and glop out the goo. Put new goo in,
stick in the new panel and reinstall the stops.

After you design your windows, shop your numbers around to various suppliers
and let the winner build you the insulated glass inserts.


"Charlie Spitzer" wrote in message
...
you can purchase the window inserts (double/triple glass, sealed, argon
filled) and just install them in your own window frames. call up a custom
window place, not a distributor of installable windows.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

"Pat Barber" wrote in message
...
Aside from many building issues, and depending on where
you live, many areas have VERY strick building codes with
wind loads for windows.

In my area, windows require a wind load of over 100 mph.
It is VERY doubtful you could build anything that meets
or exceeds those specs in a reasonable amount of time and
money.



Zach Tomas wrote:

Myself and LOML are getting ready to build a house. I realize that
when most people say that they mean that their contracter is building
one for them.

I mean we are building it ourselves - basement, foundation, framing,
roof, the works.

Snipped parts about how easy it is to build windows.

d. I am just nuts to begin with. (Make that "eccentric")

"walter klaus" wrote in message thlink.net...
snip
The hot melt sealer is more effieciednt. I never saw any vacuum pumps or
argon gas. It a wives take.


All of the major window manufacturers do offer agron fill as an
option. It does disapate over time however. It does work, just not
forever.

Bob